Author Topic: Wii Third Party Domination (Read 53136 times)

Pittbboi · « **Reply #150 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:07:56 AM »

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I get the feeling Pittbboi whines just to whine.

Yeah, because there's no possible way that I could be dissatisfied as a Wii gamer at this point.

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Not sure why Pit says that new Wii games that control similar to old Wii games is not good enough, that is like saying games on N64 that controlled like Mario 64 were not "Unique" enough.

Ummm...when did I say that?

GoldenPhoenix · « **Reply #151 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:08:24 AM »

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Originally posted by: pap64
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It's like telling a devoted Christian that God doesn't exist; You could show them ACTUAL PROOF that all of their teachings are false and that there is no God and they would STILL insist that you are wrong. The only way they can change their mind is if they and only THEY open their minds and heart and learn to seek the truth or some phenomenal proof is shown to them that confirms that their beliefs are wrong.

Great job saying Christian's are the only people who do this, I'm sorry but people of all beliefs have closed minds on various issues. Not sure why you chose to bring up Christians in particular though. Personally I don't know if you intended it but I find this an insult, especially to someone like myself who was an atheist/agnostic all the way up until I was 17.

Pittbboi · « **Reply #152 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:11:45 AM »

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
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Originally posted by: pap64
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It's like telling a devoted Christian that God doesn't exist; You could show them ACTUAL PROOF that all of their teachings are false and that there is no God and they would STILL insist that you are wrong. The only way they can change their mind is if they and only THEY open their minds and heart and learn to seek the truth or some phenomenal proof is shown to them that confirms that their beliefs are wrong.

Great job saying Christian's are the only people who do this, I'm sorry but people of all beliefs have closed minds on various issues. Not sure why you chose to bring up Christians in particular though. Personally I don't know if you intended it but I find this an insult, especially to someone like myself who was an atheist/agnostic all the way up until I was 17.

Wow...how did I completely gloss over that?

Yeah, Pap, that's an extremely bad analogy...

Kairon · « **Reply #153 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:11:59 AM »

I'd like to think that we ALWAYS hold the right to hold companies to high standards regardless of whether we buy their products. I don't think money changing hands ever affects that.

In fact, I'd think that as soon as we hand them our money, that simply provides positive feedback to the company saying that we support whatever it is they're doing. I don't think that money carries along with it explicit instructions on what exactly it is we liked aside from the product it was spent on.

In the end, that's what this whole thing boils down to: do we provide positive feedback or not? I, personally, feel that in this case we should subscribe to the Psychological theory of "Shaping behaviors," that is, rewarding successive increments of correct behavior until the entire complex behavior takes form. Nothing's going to appear out of the air on demand you know, pieces of the full action must be learned and rewarded so the complete behavior can take shape one bit at a time, through a series of baby steps.

Or... you know... we could just throw the whole lot of third party developers into the deep end of the pool, tell them "sink or swim" and abandon those who don't pass our strict litmus test to their drowning fate... *shrug*

A little... unforgiving, in my opinion.

~Carmine "Cai" M. red
Kairon@aol.com

GoldenPhoenix · « **Reply #154 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:13:05 AM »

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
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I get the feeling Pittbboi whines just to whine.

Yeah, because there's no possible way that I could be dissatisfied as a Wii gamer at this point.

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Not sure why Pit says that new Wii games that control similar to old Wii games is not good enough, that is like saying games on N64 that controlled like Mario 64 were not "Unique" enough.

Ummm...when did I say that?

When you whine and complain about everything it gets to be more than just a dissatisfied Wii gamer. BTW I did misread what you said, regardless though am I the only one to think it is a tad bit ridiculous to compare Wii games to PS3 sixaxis games, when the sixaxis itself was a response to the Wii controller? It is like saying "Hey Mario 64, that game fails to live up to the potential of the N64 controller because you can do the same thing on Dual Shock" disregarding who developed the idea in the first place.

Kairon · « **Reply #155 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:16:58 AM »

Now I'm confused...

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

NWR_pap64 · « **Reply #156 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:18:44 AM »

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
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Originally posted by: pap64
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It's like telling a devoted Christian that God doesn't exist; You could show them ACTUAL PROOF that all of their teachings are false and that there is no God and they would STILL insist that you are wrong. The only way they can change their mind is if they and only THEY open their minds and heart and learn to seek the truth or some phenomenal proof is shown to them that confirms that their beliefs are wrong.

Great job saying Christian's are the only people who do this, I'm sorry but people of all beliefs have closed minds on various issues. Not sure why you chose to bring up Christians in particular though. Personally I don't know if you intended it but I find this an insult, especially to someone like myself who was an atheist/agnostic all the way up until I was 17.

Yes, I used Christians as an example, but I didn't say ALL Christians, or religiously devoted people, are like that. I just used religion as an example of how sometimes personal beliefs are stronger than fact and the only way one can defeat the other is if those people are READY to open their hearts, souls and minds and take it all in.

Another reason I used Christianity was because all of my family members are devoted Christians since the beginning of 2006, I'm the religiously neutral one. I HIGHLY respect all forms of religious, and I even believe in many of them. I simply have differing opinions on the concept of the bible, Church and faith.

What I meant to say in that post is that people that are VERY true to their beliefs will be extremely hard to nudge our of their stance, unless they are ready and more than willing to be nudged.

This is the case with Ian and Pittboi, no matter how hard S_B and many others have tried to convince them otherwise they are dead set on being skeptical until the IT proof arrives.

I didn't mean to offend. Like I said, my family are devoted Christians and they have become BETTER people because of it and I am extremely grateful to God. But even my dad had the balls to sit up and ask WHY every once in a while.

Kairon · « **Reply #157 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:22:26 AM »

But aren't we the same way? Just other sides of the same coin?

I refuse to believe that we're like that, for us or them. If we're all so blind that nothing but the Shining Sun Searing our Silly Sideburns into Sausages would convince us its daytime, then we should all give up rigourous debate and discourse now!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Pittbboi · « **Reply #158 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:24:55 AM »

Goldenpheonix

Don't get me wrong, I'll congratulate Nintendo when I feel they're doing something right (which I do). And, honestly, I wouldn't own a Wii and be on these boards if I didn't think Nintendo had the potential to do more right than wrong. But, I definitely think Nintendo gamers fall on either side of a specific fence--those who love Nintendo so much that they're willing to take their word for it, and those who love Nintendo but have been burned too much in the past to take everything they say at face value. I definitely fall into the latter category. I want Nintendo to succeed, and I feel that the Wii has a better shot than the N64 and 'Cube, and it's partially that desire that makes me gruff when I feel they've drop the ball.

That and, well...a mediocre game is a mediocre game...

As for the SIXAXIS...no way in hell does it hold a candle to the wiimote, and I have never implied that. The wiimote itself has leagues more potential. However, I cannot say that I believe that developers have utilized that potential. So far it's been button-to-gesture mapping, and after hours upon hours with Wii Sports and Zelda and Rayman, I'm past the novelty. I'm ready for the innovation, the creativity that goes beyond the obvious "let's make this motion stand for this action" that Nintendo lead us to believe the wiimote is capable of, and that I still believe it is capable of.

Kairon · « **Reply #159 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:27:08 AM »

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
the creativity that goes beyond the obvious "let's make this motion stand for this action" that Nintendo lead us to believe the wiimote is capable of, and that I still believe it is capable of.

Funny... I'm the first type of fan you mentioned and I feel like you're just taking their word for it that this exists... do you KNOW how the wiimote works? It's completely BLIND to 3D space! BLIND I TELL YOU!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

NWR_pap64 · « **Reply #160 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:29:36 AM »

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Originally posted by: Kairon
But aren't we the same way? Just other sides of the same coin?

I refuse to believe that we're like that, for us or them. If we're all so blind that nothing but the shining sun searing our silly sideburns into sausages would convince us its daytime, then we should all give up rigourous debate and discourse now!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

I don't believe it either, but sadly, there are people like that all over the world.

People DID believe that the earth was flat and when people it was really round people LAUGHED. It wasn't till the concrete proof was shown that people were finally convinced the earth was round.

That's how it is with some people, unless you show them the concrete proof or something major they will go on believing what they believe.

GoldenPhoenix · « **Reply #161 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:31:53 AM »

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Originally posted by: Kairon
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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
the creativity that goes beyond the obvious "let's make this motion stand for this action" that Nintendo lead us to believe the wiimote is capable of, and that I still believe it is capable of.

Funny... I'm the first type of fan you mentioned and I feel like you're just taking their word for it that this exists... do you KNOW how the wiimote works? It's completely BLIND to 3D space! BLIND I TELL YOU!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Well it should be interesting to see if developers can figure out a way around this. Regardless I think the Wii has already shown tons of potential to revolutionize FPS controls and aiming in general, and that in itself is a major positive. Maybe someone can clear this up, but is it even possible to have quick motions be read at all by the "sensor" bar? Because when you move quickly up and down it seems to be way too fast for it to register positioning.

Kairon · « **Reply #162 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:33:42 AM »

It DOES communicate with the Wii 2000 times a second so....

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Ian Sane · « **Reply #163 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:36:13 AM »

"I don't think it'll turn around 100% Ian, but give it time and it'll do about a 75% turn. The Wii will never be the perfect hardware for everybody, but it will be the closest thing this generation has to a PS2 I think."

If the Wii continues to sell as well as it is then I agree. The games will come if the userbase is large but right now the actual third party offerings just aren't that hot.

The religious comparison is pushing it a little too close to going against forum rules. Quality of third party games is subjective anyway so you can't really prove things one way or another anyway (much like religious discussions as both sides usually offer what they see as proof). Plus if anything I'd switch things around as Nintendo devoutees seem more likely to demonstrate blind faith. On a Nintendo related board anything resembling a negative opinion towards Nintendo is the radical approach.

Pittbboi · « **Reply #164 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:39:52 AM »

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Funny... I'm the first type of fan you mentioned and I feel like you're just taking their word for it that this exists... do you KNOW how the wiimote works? It's completely BLIND to 3D space! BLIND I TELL YOU!

The wiimote is my one exception. I has to be because it's what's SELLING the Wii right now. And there's no denying that Nintendo itself originally led us to believe the wiimote is capable of more than its currently been used for.

I still believe that the wiimote is capable of some real-time sword fighting, mouse-like accuracy and motion detection. I just think that it's taking developers time to tap into that because:

1) They're lazy and know that the Wii is still new enough that they can simply exploit the novelty of it with tacked on controls. This is what pisses me off.
2) The wiimote is legitimately difficult to program for. More so than any other controller I can think of. You almost have to spend just as much time on the controls as you would on a typical game engine. However, I think that the more time developers have with the wiimote and the more developer tools get released specifically for it (another wiimote programming tool was released just a few days ago, I believe). The easier it'll be for developers to reach the wiimote's full potential.

Kairon · « **Reply #165 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:43:44 AM »

The wiimote, in my opinion, should be the thing MOST criticized of Nintendo's "successes" because I simply don't see, or believe, it will have a great deal of "upward mobility." I'm not dissing it, I think that it's BRILLIANT and that just ease of use is more of a killer app than people give it credit for (especially looking at Wii Sports), but the technology just isn't there for it to be awareof much more then rough gestures...

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

NWR_pap64 · « **Reply #166 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:45:56 AM »

I'll admit that my comparison is radical, but I will not change it simply because it goes against some standards set my social mores.

Yes it was a daring comparison and I knew some would be annoyed by it, but I explained why I used it and the meaning behind it. I already said I didn't mean to offend, that I was using it as an example how sometimes subjective beliefs tend to be far stronger than fact and that in order to change it you need an equal or stronger fact and the will of accepting new ideas.

In Pitt and Ian's case, their subjective beliefs are stronger than the facts mentioned in other rebuttals. The only way they can change is when the proof because even stronger than it is right now.

Pittbboi · « **Reply #167 on:** February 28, 2007, 11:56:58 AM »

Kairon, I don't know...Nintendo definitely didn't put as much into it as they would like us to believe, but I definitely think there is room for improvement.

The one thing that bothers me is that Nintendo's main purpose for the wiimote was to create easy, pick up and play experiences, and that was touted as being a major ace by Nintendo fans. And yet, so far, most games have proven to be anything but. Every mediocre/bad review of a Wii game that I've read usually spends a good deal of time criticizing the controls. And the usual response to that is "well, obviously these guys suck and didn't take the time to learn the controls." But, if it's true that most reviews don't get written until the reviewer plays through all or most of the game...if they didn't pick up the controls by then...well doesn't that still mean that wiimote isn't fulfilling its pick up and play purpose, whether or not the reviewer sucks? Heck, my friends and family all love Wii Bowling, by far the most played game on my Wii. And STILL after all this time I get that dumb "oops" message more often than I'd like, and more than once members of my family have put down the controller in frustration.

I still believe that the controller is capable of more, but one thing I said on these boards before the Wii was released was that, after playing the Wii at the Fusion Tour, I didn't think the wiimote was going to be any easier to use than a regular controller. It was going to be difficult in it's own way. So far I seem to be right.

ShyGuy · « **Reply #168 on:** February 28, 2007, 12:01:16 PM »

Thread reported for lockdown. Expect ban sticks and deprogramming all around.

I still don't have my third party list!

GoldenPhoenix · « **Reply #169 on:** February 28, 2007, 12:03:43 PM »

The Wii controller is easier to use than the normal, multi button controller, DEPENDING ON THE GAME. Wii sports is definately an easy pick up and play game, that anyone from the age to 5 to 80 can play with little instruction, it is just intuitive and not a dauting task that game pads offer people who haven't played many games. On other games though, the ones not made for the "casual" or "non gamer" crowd, can be complex adding even more to the immersion, it just depends on who the game is aimed at.

Personally I think Nintendo is illustrating what they said about it not being as complex as a gamepad with games like WarioWare, Wii play, Excite Truck and Wiiplay, all of which are easy to grasp, while adding more complexity in games that are aimed at more the "hardcore" crowd.

Kairon · « **Reply #170 on:** February 28, 2007, 12:11:38 PM »

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Heck, my friends and family all love Wii Bowling, by far the most played game on my Wii. And STILL after all this time I get that dumb "oops" message more often than I'd like, and more than once members of my family have put down the controller in frustration.

I think you're laying the blame in the wrong place there. That problem is COMPLETELY dependent on when you let go of the B button.

The need for simple games is why I'm waiting for titles like Wii Music, or Space Station Tycoon. You won't find complex games becoming all of a sudden two button affairs, but generally you'll get mouse-like simplicity that'll be MUCH more appealing to casual gamers and the only thing that can draw in non-gamers.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

NWR_pap64 · « **Reply #171 on:** February 28, 2007, 12:11:53 PM »

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
The Wii controller is easier to use than the normal, multi button controller, DEPENDING ON THE GAME. Wii sports is definately an easy pick up and play game, that anyone from the age to 5 to 80 can play with little instruction, it is just intuitive and not a dauting task that game pads offer people who haven't played many games. On other games though, the ones not made for the "casual" or "non gamer" crowd, can be complex adding even more to the immersion, it just depends on who the game is aimed at.

Personally I think Nintendo is illustrating what they said about it not being as complex as a gamepad with games like WarioWare, Wii play, Excite Truck and Wiiplay, all of which are easy to grasp, while adding more complexity in games that are aimed at more the "hardcore" crowd.

I agree. I've been playing Wii Sports nonstop (mainly because I don't have anything else to play :p) and I noticed that the more I play it, the more complex it gets. For example, in the harder levels how to swing the bat is integral to hit those tricky balls in Baseball, getting the high scores in all the training games require a lot of timing and patience and while the controls need fixing Boxing requires a lot of strategy to win.

It adds complexity since the motion lies all in the player's hand, not button combinations. In other words, your precise movement is far more vital than how quick you can hit a button.

Kairon · « **Reply #172 on:** February 28, 2007, 12:13:04 PM »

Wii Sports IS quite complex. It's really surprising!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

NWR_pap64 · « **Reply #173 on:** February 28, 2007, 12:16:45 PM »

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Originally posted by: Kairon
Wii Sports IS quite complex. It's really surprising!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

The game is VERY easy to get into. Like Golden mentioned, everyone from ages 5 to 90 can pick up the controller and play since the concept is easy to grasp. However, like real sports, the more you get into it the more the complexity shows, making it a game of skill and talent.

Pittbboi · « **Reply #174 on:** February 28, 2007, 12:16:58 PM »

Eh, I had to warm up to WiiSports. The minigames are complex, but only to the point that it makes me want more dedicated games for the individual sports.

Guess I should say this was Nintendo's way of selling sports games on the Wii?

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Author Topic: Wii Third Party Domination (Read 53136 times)