Author Topic: Wii Third Party Domination (Read 52951 times)

D_MaN87 · « **Reply #100 on:** February 27, 2007, 12:23:49 AM »

The increasing amount of third parties is really exciting. N64 and Gamecube had nothing on wii (so far) for 3rd party. It's only going to get better from here.

Jin-X · « **Reply #101 on:** February 28, 2007, 01:52:44 AM »

Personally I'm getting a little annoyed by how 3rd parties new IPs and some in the media are shoehorning the Wii as the kiddy console, with words "it fits the demographic", or "made for the Wii's market" and all that crap. Most of these people seem to have no idea what the hell is Nintendo's demographic. Let me give you a clue 3rd parties, when you make a game that "fits the Wii's demographic", you should be talking about games like Okami, Jet Set Radio, Viewtiful Joe (games with unique styles that will sell better on Nintendo's system than on XBX, PS). Not kids games like Billy Hatcher.

It's like they dont understand the difference between stuff like Star Wars, LotR, Shrek, that can be enjoyed by anybody, and dumbed down crap not made for anybody over 10.

Nintendo fans buy Nintendo games because they are great, not because they "look a certain way". This is something a lot of 3rd parties don't seem to get.

Kairon · « **Reply #102 on:** February 28, 2007, 03:51:38 AM »

Note to self: Buy ManHunt 2.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

MaryJane · « **Reply #103 on:** February 28, 2007, 05:08:01 AM »

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Originally posted by: Kairon
Note to self: Buy ManHunt 2.~Carmine "Cai" M. RedKairon@aol.com

This is something everyone should do who is complaining about too many games for kids on the Wii.

I don't like how Nintendo fans are generalized but you can't really blame the third parties for thinking that way. they look at sales, and Wii Sports is outselling everything. Why? because it is simple. Nintendo's own definition of what makes a game mature vs. childish is its complexity. in those terms it's a childish game now I agree there is a vast difference between Wii Sports and say SpongeBob but they are both simple games that anyone can play and from a business perspective that makes them similar.

The solution is to make games like Manhunt 2 and No More Heroes million sellers.

I know this stigma has been around before the Wii, but the important thing is for it to not go any further.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #104 on:** February 28, 2007, 05:30:21 AM »

This is something everyone should do who is complaining about too many games for kids on the Wii.

Sorry but I don't throw 60€ away to send a message.

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #105 on:** February 28, 2007, 05:46:31 AM »

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k Sorry but I don't throw 60€ away to send a message.

Who's saying it won't be fun? You might LEARN something about yourself.

Who knows? The first time I pantomime garroting some poor fool with the nunchuck wire, I might suddenly realize I've found my true calling in life.

Keep an open mind!

Kairon · « **Reply #106 on:** February 28, 2007, 05:48:29 AM »

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
This is something everyone should do who is complaining about too many games for kids on the Wii.

Sorry but I don't throw 60€ away to send a message.

Screw sending a message. Try broadening your horizons. Satisfying your curiousity. Understanding how the other half lives. Watching a Korean horror movie.

And all that jazz.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Pittbboi · « **Reply #107 on:** February 28, 2007, 05:51:05 AM »

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This is something everyone should do who is complaining about too many games for kids on the Wii.

Ugh this is what I hate. Don't get me wrong, in principle I'm glad that Manhunt 2 is coming to the Wii. Wii could definitely use more adult-oriented (I won't say mature) titles. However, let's not pretend that the first Manhunt a mediocre game and the second won't likely be just as good or worse; or that Rockstar Toronto won't mostly just be taking what's made for the PS2 and porting it up to the Wii. Not trying to kill hopes in the game, but Manhunt 2 just screams "mediocre franchise being ported to every platform that'll take it for a quick cash grab." I could be wrong, but it's not really looking like I am.

(oh, and pretty much everything I said applies to Godfather, as well)

It's a pretty thin tight rope. I want to support developers' endeavors in developing mature and adult-oriented games, but at the same time I'm not going to support and thus encourage mediocrity...which is mostly what third parties seem to be giving the Wii at this point.

Kairon · « **Reply #108 on:** February 28, 2007, 06:01:47 AM »

Well, SOMEONE has to make the first move, and I believe in proactivity. And watching Korean Horror Flicks.*

Besides, it's so unfair to write things off as mediocre. Halo was mediocre. And look where that got it. I think this Nintendo-centric elitist attitude to third party games and ESPECIALLY third party "mass market" games needs to be reigned in.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

*note: I have not yet watched an actual Korean Horror flick. However, I do have in my collection both Lars Von Trier's Dogville and the original My Little Pony Movie. That's gotta count for something right?*

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #109 on:** February 28, 2007, 06:17:14 AM »

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi (oh, and pretty much everything I said applies to Godfather, as well)

How do you know Godfather will be mediocre? If the Wii controls work well, it looks like it'll not only be a fun game abut a bit of a workout as well.

This will also be the first game which allows you to swing an object with the Wiimote into someone's face.

I'm not interested in GTA or any of its clones, but the idea of roughing people up with the Wii controls is intriguing, for an "I gotta see this..." reaction more than anything.

Pittbboi · « **Reply #110 on:** February 28, 2007, 06:25:49 AM »

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Besides, it's so unfair to write things off as mediocre. Halo was mediocre. And look where that got it. I think this Nintendo-centric elitist attitude to third party games and ESPECIALLY third party "mass market" games needs to be reigned in.

Well, Manhunt was a mediocre game with a much smaller scope and not nearly enough selling potential to be compared to Halo. If Halo is mediocre than Manhunt was utter crap. The games just can't be compared.

I don't think it's elitist to NOT buy a uninteresting/mediocre/bad game. I'm not saying the game shouldn't be on the Wii--on the contrary, I'm glad it is. But only in the sense that it may inspire someone to make an exclusive adult-oriented game with much more potential. Until the game proves otherwise, I'm writing this off as the sequel to a mediocre game.

Kairon · « **Reply #111 on:** February 28, 2007, 06:42:31 AM »

I guess there are different cut off points.

Some people have higher standards and need something that's more top shelf and more of a "clear winner."

And some people are more forgiving, willing to find fun where we seek it, take chances and take that oh-so-dangerous risk of optimism.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

The Omen · « **Reply #112 on:** February 28, 2007, 07:02:07 AM »

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I don't think it's elitist to NOT buy a uninteresting/mediocre/bad game.

Yes it certainly is when you haven't seen or played said game.

ShyGuy · « **Reply #113 on:** February 28, 2007, 07:15:41 AM »

Wii: I try and try for you Pittbboi, but nothing I ever do is good enough for you! (runs away and cries)

Kairon · « **Reply #114 on:** February 28, 2007, 07:23:06 AM »

Welcome to the NEW version of Nintendo fanboyism!!!

Out: Criticizing third-party games on other consoles

In: Praising third-party games on Nintendo consoles

Amazing! An almost complete inversion of what came before! Hopefully this new love-what-we-have fanboy tactic will yield positive results whereas the previous hate-what-we-don't strategy only bred isolation, discrimination, and distrust.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #115 on:** February 28, 2007, 07:29:22 AM »

Heh, well said, Kai.

I've typically always bought games which were Nintendo-exclusives, but in the Wii's case, I'll be more than willing to try games that have been redone with the Wiimote controls because it can often make for a much better game.

Pittbboi · « **Reply #116 on:** February 28, 2007, 07:55:41 AM »

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I've typically always bought games which were Nintendo-exclusives, but in the Wii's case, I'll be more than willing to try games that have been redone with the Wiimote controls because it can often make for a much better game.

But when has that happened?

Honestly, if the "new Nintendo fanboyism" is about praising any third party game even if it isn't completely deserved all for the sake of "optimism" how can we ever expect third parties to take Wii seriously and put their heavy hitters on the console? In that kind of environment third parties will just continue throwing ports or "Nintendo Crowd" (read: kiddy) games on the Wii and use the profits to fund their Metal Gears, Resident Evils, and Final Fantasies on other consoles. Any innovation and creativity will be relegated to titles like "Dewy's Adventure" while the Okamis and Oblivions and Shadow of the Colossus will go elsewhere.

I'll admit that not supporting these titles can lead to third parties believing that we don't want mature titles at all, so I'm considering buying Manhunt 2 even though I have absolutely no interest in it, but still...it's just so frustrating that at the moment we have to accept tittles as top notch that are met with indifference on other consoles (and rightfully so, because they get much better on a much more consistent basis). And Nintendo is partially to blame for creating this idea that Nintendo gamers only want kiddy games or games that feign innovation but are really just cartoons you control.

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I'm not interested in GTA or any of its clones, but the idea of roughing people up with the Wii controls is intriguing, for an "I gotta see this..." reaction more than anything.

The idea of hitting someone in the face with an object using the wiimote in Godfather, or imitating chocking someone to death in Manhunt 2 is not going to get me on premise alone. I've played the Wii too much; I'm definitely past the novelty, "I gotta see this..." stage. Now I just want controls that undeniably work. Let's see how long that takes, because so far most developers haven't gotten that yet.

Jin-X · « **Reply #117 on:** February 28, 2007, 08:21:42 AM »

I'm keeping a close eye on Godfather, they really look to be putting a lot of care into it from what I've seen; but I'm talking more about new games, not ports (which this still is). There's a good reason Nintendo fans aren't trusting of 3rd parties, how many times they came out with a crappy game/port or even a 6 month old port and then used that to justify not supporting the system when said game didn't sell?

Some people can't buy a ton of games so they only buy the best, it's not necessarily that we need to broaden our horizons, I had all 3 consoles (and got a Dreamcast at launch), but when I see 3rd parties spewing the same rhetoric about Nintendo's market, it's proof that while the support is coming because of the gangbuster sales, they still don't get it.

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #118 on:** February 28, 2007, 08:36:46 AM »

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
But when has that happened?

Splinter Cell: DA: aiming with the Wiimote VASTLY improved the game over analogue stick aiming.

DBZ:BT2: playing with the Wiimote and nunchuck was designed so doing the "Kamehamehama" actually involved you thrusting your hands forward at the same time. Made the game come alive like no other fighting game I've played.

CoD3: Wiimote aiming made the game much better than other iterations.

FarCry: Leaping over someone by flipping up on the nunchuck and then slashing them up with the Wiimote was so enjoyable it made the graphics forgivable.

Madden: Wii controls made the game FAR more engaging and fun.

I'm sure there are more examples than this, but this is all I've played so far.

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Honestly, if the "new Nintendo fanboyism" is about praising any third party game even if it isn't completely deserved all for the sake of "optimism" how can we ever expect third parties to take Wii seriously and put their heavy hitters on the console?

That's a contradiction in logic: if games sell so well on the Wii, then why send "heavy hitters" to other consoles?

There are only two options when it comes to development of games for a console:

1. Games sell well for their respective quality and devs bring more games to the console.

2. Games DON'T sell well and devs stop bringing games to the console.

There is no "buying crappy games is BAD!". It doesn't work that way: either the games sell or they don't. Luckily, the Wii has enough of a userbase that people are buying the crap games as well.

Developers REALIZE that better games push better numbers. No developer will last more than a year in the industry without understanding that quality in typically = sales out.

There's a REASON why developers like EA and Ubi are updating their games and making them look better (Medal of Honor and PoP): they understand that more people will buy the games if there is more development effort put into them.

Furthermore, this discussion has been done to DEATH: consoles receive sh*tty ports, they always HAVE and they always WILL receive sh*ttacular ports and its hidden amongst those ports that we find the gems which make the console worth owning.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #119 on:** February 28, 2007, 08:52:53 AM »

"DBZ:BT2: playing with the Wiimote and nunchuck was designed so doing the 'Kamehamehama' actually involved you thrusting your hands forward at the same time. Made the game come alive like no other fighting game I've played."

I think this is the sort of Wii game design that is going to age really fast. Waving your arms around is a novelty so it's fun now but it's going to get boring after too many "gesture" games come out and it all starts feeling the same. Games that make effective use of waving the remote around will likely have more legs but anything that just substitutes a button push with a gesture is going to get tiresome real quick.

"Splinter Cell: DA: aiming with the Wiimote VASTLY improved the game over analogue stick aiming."

I think this sort of remote usage is going to have more staying power due to it being a practical use of motion control and providing a level of functionality that a controller can't.

It's like when gaming first went 3D. Some games had legimately good design and made full use of 3D but some games relied too much on the initial "thrill" of 3D and have aged terribly as a result.

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #120 on:** February 28, 2007, 08:59:25 AM »

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I think this is the sort of Wii game design that is going to age really fast. Waving your arms around is a novelty so it's fun now but it's going to get boring after too many "gesture" games come out and it all starts feeling the same. Games that make effective use of waving the remote around will likely have more legs but anything that just substitutes a button push with a gesture is going to get tiresome real quick.

No offense, but do you have a Wii yet? Have you handled the controller for an extensive period of time?

DBZ doesn't have you throwing every single punch and kick: it just has you using the rare special move where you make a similar gesture and actually makes the game very immersive, as does flicking the nunchuck forward to chase after someone you've just knocked across the screen.

I can't imagine anyone getting "tired" playing this game. You'd have to be so immensely out of shape that just getting up would be a laborious act.

Jin-X · « **Reply #121 on:** February 28, 2007, 09:06:27 AM »

SB; you sort of proved Pit's point about "praising any 3rd party game...". COD3 didn't even have multiplayer and Far Cry doesn't even need to be explained. These games were rushed and missing features; Madden and DBZ are fine though, DBZ just has a steep learning curve but damn is it great.

Kairon · « **Reply #122 on:** February 28, 2007, 09:22:05 AM »

/cry at the FarCry hate!!! That was the first game on Wii I actually beat! I'm admit I'm no graphics whore, so that didn't scare me, but I still haven't finished Red Steel or CoD compared to my several day blast-through of Far Cry!

Oh, and I couldn't stand the aiming in Splinter Cell: DA. Having to keep your wiimote centered all the time because moving it to any side changes the camera? Ugh! Worst application of pointer functionality ever! Who ever thought it was a good idea to force my hand to be suspended in midair in the exact same position forever!!!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Smash_Brother · « **Reply #123 on:** February 28, 2007, 09:23:29 AM »

It would prove his point if there wasn't so much evidence to the contrary.

CoD3 sold so well that EA wants a piece of the pie and is willing to spend some cash on prettying up the graphics, and while UbiSoft's FarCry may have been graphically deplorable, they're definitely trying to make amends.

This is the natural progression of things: we start with crappy games, then one 3rd party developer one-ups the others by making better graphics, gameplay, etc. and pretty soon 3rd parties realize that there are a set of standards when it comes to developing games on the console and, if they want their game to sell, they're going to have to at least adhere to those standards.

Pittbboi · « **Reply #124 on:** February 28, 2007, 09:24:13 AM »

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That's a contradiction in logic: if games sell so well on the Wii, then why send "heavy hitters" to other consoles?

Because if you can get away with selling crap games well on the Wii, what's the point in wasting resources bringing good games to it? Why not save those precious dollars for the consoles that don't let you get away with crap ports as easily. Ubisoft posted a 78% increase in profit from their Wii offerings, despite the fact that most of the games they brought to the Wii were mediocre ports. With results like that why bother?

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Luckily, the Wii has enough of a userbase that people are buying the crap games as well.

Because that's really all there is from third parties. We have yet to get an undeniably good third party game. The story of the Wii's life so far is bad ports or mixed reviews. It has yet to get something just spectacular from third parties outside of Nintendo's own games. If you want games on the Wii, these are pretty much all you have to choose from.

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consoles receive sh*tty ports, they always HAVE and they always WILL receive sh*ttacular ports and its hidden amongst those ports that we find the gems which make the console worth owning.

Of course consoles will always receive sh*tty ports, but where are the Wii's gems? Outside of Nintendo's own games nothing tantalizingly interesting has even been announced yet.

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we start with crappy games, then one 3rd party developer one-ups the others by making better graphics, gameplay, etc. and pretty soon 3rd parties realize that there are a set of standards when it comes to developing games on the console and, if they want their game to sell, they're going to have to at least adhere to those standards.

This I can agree with. It's going to take a third party saying, "You know what? We're going to take the Wii seriously" and making a big budget, exclusive Wii game that takes full advantage of the controls, gets stellar reviews, and has Wii gamers coming out in droves proving that we DO want mature games and makes every other third party developer feel absolutely foolish for not being the first (and even make Nintendo do a double-take and delay some of their games a few months).

Only thing is, how long are we gonna have to stand around tapping our feet waiting for that to happen?

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Author Topic: Wii Third Party Domination (Read 52951 times)