Topic: Awesome article on Wii and Disruptive Business Strategies

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Kairon
Well, I LURVED the first Pikmin, so I'd still vastly prefer Pikmin 3 over Nintendogs Wii... but WiiSports? Nah. I'm actually looking forward to WiiSports on its own merits, lol.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Was it really announced that Pikmin ended with 2? If so that is pretty sad, even if I did not care for the series, but I did respect it for being so unique. On the up side of things the Wii has so much potential to make games like Pikmin so sucessful like the DS has with so many quirky, innovative games. You just have to be patient, like every single Nintendo system previous to Wii it takes time for games to be announced (I don't believe Pikmin was announced until after GC launch) Anyway I wouldn't be surprised to see Miyamoto or Nintendo bring out a game in the spirit of the Pikmin series.

[Ceric]

Or remake the first two for the Wii.

[Luigi Dude]

Dont worry, they'll be a Pikmin 3 down the road.  The series was a success for Nintendo since both games were able to sell over a million copies each worldwide.  So there's no reason for them to stop since the series is a good seller.

[couchmonkey]

Miyamoto never said "no more Pikmin", just "not right away".  I suspect there will eventually be one on Wii.

[Ian Sane]

I find that whole Tamagotchi thing about Miyamoto to be rather despressing.  The guy makes an incredibly successful game.  It sells millions of copies and it's critically acclaimed as one of the greatest games ever made.  It's also innovative and the most influencial 3D game ever made.  He made a masterpiece that was also popular.  Every artist dreams of making something like that.  And then the guy acts like he wishes he made some horrible fad game crap instead because it sold better.  So is Miyamoto even an artist or is he just businessman who luckily also happens to be incredibly talented?

I don't like that kind of attitude.  That's an EA sell-out corporate kind of attitude.

"Metroid Prime Corruption (hey even if it does turn out to be similar to Halo, isn't that still a traditional game?)"

Obviously a Metroid fan wants a real Metroid game.  Though I think Metroid Prime 3 is looking to be a real Metroid game.

"Mario 64 (Wasn't really that traditional for the time, so it shows that term is relative)"

I think you're using "traditional" in a far too literal meaning.  "Traditional game" means a game designed for people who like games and made up the traditional gaming market (ie: the entire gaming market) up to this point.  It is nothing to do with how new or old the concept of the game is.  It's merely the opposite of "non-game" which would be a game designed for people who don't like games and make up the new group of people Nintendo is trying to target.  It's really just a politically correct term because when you say something like "real game" people jump all over you.

And when anyone says they want "traditional games" obviously that means GOOD games.  Don't point at dribble or generic EA bullsh!t and say "well that's a traditional game".  That's not directed at anyone specifically but there are a lot of misinterpretations about what the "traditional group" wants.  Any time anyone says they want something they always mean they want it to be of good quality.  This goes for third party support, new concepts, sequels, real Pokemon RPGs, and mature games as well.  It goes for every game.  No one wants crap.

[mantidor]

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Originally posted by: Smoke39
What's freaking you out about MP3, Mant?  The only thing that sort of concerns me is that they seem to be slowly getting rid of the strong feeling of solitude from the other Metroid games.  Oh yeah, and one of my pet peeves about the Prime series: they go to all the trouble of making you feel like you're in Samus' suit an' all, but then disembody you for silly cutscenes.  Half-Life-style cutscenes are totally the way to go in this kinda game, imo.

I admit they are baseless concerns because most of the game hasn't been shown. Its the mood of the game mostly... very un-metroidish, so far there aren't any creepy creatures lurking in lonely corridors, is  bunch of pirates fights with some federation soldiers in the mix, thats including the extended trailer with a bunch of footage that wasn't in playable form. Lots of robots, a weird purple female character, more robots and space pirates and federation soldiers... bah, Im sure Ill get the game even if it becames more of a military shooter, but Ill be sad if that happens.

oh and I never meant that pikmin wasn't going to get a sequel, but that is not a priority to Nintendo in the near future.

[King of Twitch]

Maybe Pikmin will lie dormant like Metroid did and then change into first person. Can you imagine a first-person Pikmin [FPP]? Charging a gigantic enemy, avoiding its tongue, then thrusting the remote forward over and over to bash your flowery head into its abdomen.. The internets shaking with anger at the change in perspective and chanting death to Nintendo.. A pikmin revolution really could shake things up.

[Ian Sane]

"Maybe Pikmin will lie dormant like Metroid did and then change into first person. Can you imagine a first-person Pikmin [FPP]? Charging a gigantic enemy, avoiding its tongue, then thrusting the remote forward over and over to bash your flowery head into its abdomen.. The internets shaking with anger at the change in perspective and chanting death to Nintendo.. A pikmin revolution really could shake things up."

Is there any logical reason to do this?  Metroid turning first person was the result of bringing a 2D franchise into 3D.  Pikmin already is 3D.  Plus with this idea you could only play as one Pikmin.  That kind of goes against the whole reason Pikmin is fun in the first place.

[Kairon]

I'm going to go out on a limb and write off MJX's comments as humor...

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[GoldenPhoenix]

Regardless of what you consider "traditional" or not traditional (I still find them objective terms because gamers may find different types of games made more for them) the Wii already had alot of classic Nintendo series in production, frankly it would be stupid not to since they still sell well. My main argument was that Nintendo is doing the same amount of "gamer" games but is also adding non-games into the mix, nothing wrong with that. Oh yeah, from what I've seen of Metroid Corruption, it looks like a Metroid game, just adding a bit more variety to the mix so it doesn't get too stale.

One concern towards Nintendo that I do think holds some water is that their games are not as polished as they were in the NES-N64 generation. Liked them or not, but delays back in the N64 were meant to create the best game possible when it came to Nintendo's games.  As much as I loved SMS and LoZ:WW I felt they could have benefited greatly from a delay or two, and I believe the Nintendo of old would have, but as it turned out both games came off as unpolished, mainly LoZ:WW because of some of the lame dungeons along with the scavenger hunt at the end. This is one reason why I am excited about TP, is because it has had enough time in production (even excluding the time needed for the Wii version) to churn out a polished game.

[wandering]

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And then the guy acts like he wishes he made some horrible fad game crap instead because it sold better.

Donkey Kong was a fad....

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"Traditional game" means a game designed for people who like games and made up the traditional gaming market (ie: the entire gaming market) up to this point.

Donkey Kong wasn't designed for people who like games....

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I admit they are baseless concerns because most of the game hasn't been shown. Its the mood of the game mostly... very un-metroidish, so far there aren't any creepy creatures lurking in lonely corridors, is bunch of pirates fights with some federation soldiers in the mix, thats including the extended trailer with a bunch of footage that wasn't in playable form. Lots of robots, a weird purple female character, more robots and space pirates and federation soldiers... bah, Im sure Ill get the game even if it becames more of a military shooter, but Ill be sad if that happens.

Well, remember they're trying to sell the game. You can't show people 30 minutes of moody exploration or whatever.

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I am terribly worried about that game, and I have this bad hunch that Nintendo is trying to push it as "the halo killer", its really not a matter of NST or Retro, they are good developers and have proven they have potential, but Nintendo has the last say and they will push the game in the direction they see fit

Ugg, what? You trust Retro, but not Nintendo? Nintendo is going to push the game towards generic trash? The same Nintendo that is responsible for the Metroid "feel" Retro tries so hard to emulate? The same Nintendo that made Prime first-person, when Retro wanted it in third? You've really lost that much faith in the company?

[Ian Sane]

"Donkey Kong was a fad...."

But has maintained it's status as a classic game for over 20 years.  No one with taste ever consider Tamagotchi to be even "good" and no one gives a sh!t about it anymore.

"Donkey Kong wasn't designed for people who like games...."

Donkey Kong was designed to make use of unsold Radarscope cabinets.  I would never consider it a non-game because it's quite clearly designed for the same group of people that liked playing other arcade games of the time.  It was also an incredibly advanced game for it's time which goes against the non-game approach of simplifying things for people who find gaming as is too "intimidating".  The non-game design is largely based on the idea of not only targetting people who don't play games but by doing so with a game that gamers might not be interested in.  The whole plan very blatantly revolves around the idea of making two different types of product for two different groups.  That is quite different then making a game that just happens to have wide appeal.  The concept, or at least the parts of it I don't like, is quite recent and ties in with Iwata becoming the head of Nintendo.

[odifiend]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Donkey Kong wasn't designed for people who like games...."

Donkey Kong was designed to make use of unsold Radarscope cabinets.  I would never consider it a non-game because it's quite clearly designed for the same group of people that liked playing other arcade games of the time.  It was also an incredibly advanced game for it's time which goes against the non-game approach of simplifying things for people who find gaming as is too "intimidating".  The non-game design is largely based on the idea of not only targetting people who don't play games but by doing so with a game that gamers might not be interested in.  The whole plan very blatantly revolves around the idea of making two different types of product for two different groups.  That is quite different then making a game that just happens to have wide appeal.  The concept, or at least the parts of it I don't like, is quite recent and ties in with Iwata becoming the head of Nintendo.

This game/ non-game crap is so ridiculous.  Donkey Kong, I suppose was designed for REAL gamers who like games like Pacman, Space Invaders, and Pong? (read everyone)  Donkey Kong has one more input than Pacman - jump.  Conceptually, dodging hazards and climbing up ladders is not complicated, games like this have been played since before the new era, in the form of snakes and ladders.
Technology is always getting bigger, faster, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.  Nintendo is practical and stopping what has been natural when dealing with technology.  Instead of saying, "now we can do this according to physics, we can make this look more realistic, and the player can control individual cells on the characters body,"  they've stepped back and done an assessment of how fun that really would be.  Nintendo wants to return to the time of the arcade - where everything is new and fun, where copied game ideas aren't rewarded, and where simplicity can be genius.  This talk of non-games and games, if you start at square one, is a paradox.  The original games where non games.  Have an aneurism and let this objection die.
It seems clear to me that Nintendo's stance is still for the 'gamer' which Nintendo would argue is everyone.  They have done this in every generation, they are just using new language to achieve the same goal.
Did you know the definition for insanity is doing what you've always done and expecting different results?

 

[GoldenPhoenix]

Good post Odi, personally I think all the "game" "non-game" stuff is mainly for marketing because they are pretty subjective terms. As gaming evolves new gameplay experiences will arise, which have potential to end up being the "norm" and thus become traditional in nature after a few years.

[trip1eX]

Well if watch that ABC news interview with REggie, he's asked if Nintendo needs the non-gamer.  HE flat out said no.  He can do fine with the core gamer crowd.  Nintendo makes plenty of core gamer games.

But to really bust things open he wants the non-gamer/casual gamer/former gamer crowd.  

YOu shouldn't just look at potential success with non-gamers as Nintendo only making non-gamer games.  I mean those gamers will look for other stuff to play too.  And cash made in the non-gamer market will probably it's way into core games the way MS makes cash in Windows/OFfice and loses it on the Xbox/360.

[SixthAngel]

Why are people surprised that the article has a positive slant?  The purpose is to show why certain things are not a problem and not to point out potential problems.  He points out some problems but that is not the focus of the article.

The competitors bussiness models are not described because they are slight modifications of the industry standard model (improved graphics) and the article is about the new Wii model.  Sony and Microsofts overall plan to take over the living room is not part of the model to make the respective systems successful.  Bluray is not in pushing the PS3 but the PS3 with its games is instead pushing bluray.  While business models always play a role in the winner this time each model is not a slight modification of the previous.  A Nintendo coup or a giant jump in marketshare would force the other companies to change or automatically label themselves as behind the competition the next gen.

Everyone who is complaining about nongamers should just think about this.  When Germany took over Poland did they leave their home country behind and live in Poland?  No.  Think of Nintendo as nazi Germany, just without the genocide.  

[mantidor]

You see, now I have to quote you in my sig. It may invoke Godwin in every thread I post!

[wandering]

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Everyone who is complaining about nongamers should just think about this. When Germany took over Poland did they leave their home country behind and live in Poland?

And look how well that worked out for Germany!

[BigJim]

Good lord, work on those analogies a little more.

But there was no surprise. Just pointing out the moderate dose of hypocracy.

[couchmonkey]

Okay, so what are the other business models?  Let's take a (very brief) look at them:

I'd say Sony's current business model is:
- sell Blu-ray with Playstation 3
- sell Playstation 3  with graphics and the "cool" factor - lots of ultra-slick trailers and pretty pictures
- sell Playstation 3 with a large lineup of popular third party games
- offer free online

The problem is, third-party games and support are being withdrawn from PS3 all the time.  Square Enix just said that it doesn't want to support any one console too much.  That's horrible news for PS3 - the SE fans make up a large and very "hardcore" base for the company.  Wii is seeing opposite announcements.  The other problem is that Blu-ray is making PS3 an expensive proposition for consumers - PS3 is a bargain if you're thinking of it as a Blu-ray player, but PS3 is supposed to be the trojan horse for Blu-ray, not the other way around.  The demand for PS3 is high (but waning), the demand for Blu-ray is mostly unknown.

Free online has been promised, but my impression is that the company has yet to explain how it's going to deliver that.

The only thing Sony has done right is the graphics.  Maybe also the cool factor, certainly PS3 is carrying over the PS2 cool factor, but we're starting to see that cool factor crumble on PSP, the nut that plays games.

Microsoft's business model:
- reduce fixed hardware costs by making the hard drive optional
- buy lots of exclusive games (same as Xbox business model)
- improve graphics, HD era, blah blah
- encourage distribution of cheap third party games through Xbox Live
- expand the Xbox Live experience in general

The only outright flaw that I see in Microsoft's business model is that making the hard drive optional may be reducing the effectiveness of the Xbox Live initiatives and also annoys developers by not allowing them to rely on the drive.

The Xbox live initiatives, especially the distribution of indie third party games, have promise.  With WOW showing just how much people love online gaming, and with Live Arcade bulking up 360's lineup, Live is looking good.

Securing third party exclusives seems smart, but Microsoft already tried this on Xbox, yet PS2 spanked Xbox soundly.  Remember when Dead to Rights, Splinter Cell and Wreckless: The Yakuza missions were exclusives?  The exclusives are getting bigger and bolder (PETER F'IN JACKSON, GUYS!) but that just means Microsoft is bleeding more money away in order to buy marketshare.  

Most importantly, Xbox 360 sales so far this year aren't that impressive.  That could still turn around at Christmas time, but so far I think 360 is failing to live up to Microsoft's hopes of a Playstation 2-like head start.

[Ian Sane]

That Nazi comparison is very strange.  Maybe you should use the European colonization of the New World instead?  That's a little more positive.

[UltimatePartyBear]

Not for the natives.  Besides, that would be more like gamers "emigrating" into nongamer territory.  Conquest is usually a decent metaphor to use for business, but something a bit more far removed from the present would be better.  How about Julius Caesar crossing the Rhine?

[couchmonkey]

At the risk of bugging "traditional" gamers even more, I checked out some other articles by this Malstrom guy and he argues that games as we know them are changing.  Not necessarilly because of Wii, Wii just happens to be part of the trend.

The theory is that current "non-games" will be the new games, and the games we love are going to fade into the past.  He argues that games like Pac Man were seen as "non-games" back in the early days of gaming, compared to text games like Adventure or Zork.  Similarly, the newer Final Fantasy games have sometimes been cast as "non-games" by those of us who grew up with Super Mario Bros. and Mega Man.  But you can bet kids who grew up with Final Fantasy and Metal Gear Solid consider them real games.

The new type of game, according to this guy, is the socialization game.  With games like WoW, Dance Dance Revolution, and Guitar Hero, the content of the game is technically other people as much as it is gameplay.  Put Nintendogs in bark mode and start comparing your Brain Ages with each other.  

It's pretty far-out stuff, but if he's right, then Nintendo really is on the cutting edge of the next trend in gaming.  Of course, if Nintendo has to change, we don't want anything to do with it, right?  That's okay, because we won't want anything to do with video games in general since they'll have changed across the board five years from now.  Scary theory, eh?

[Kairon]

WoW is already a bit more casual-esque compared to traditional hardcore MMORPGs... but the scary thing is that WoW is NOT the enemy...

Neopets is.

NEOPETS

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Ian Sane]

"Of course, if Nintendo has to change, we don't want anything to do with it, right? That's okay, because we won't want anything to do with video games in general since they'll have changed across the board five years from now. Scary theory, eh?"

That pretty much is exactly what I'm scared of.  Having an interest of your's yanked away from under your feet is pretty annoying when you're only in your 20s.  This happened to me with music about ten years ago, with TV during the whole reality/game show trend (thankfully TV has come back recently) and North American pro wrestling about five years ago.