Topic: The Big Thread of Wii Launch Pessimism: All the things that could go wrong!

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Magik 3rd parties don't care about launch day sales since everybody knows that console launches ALWAYS sell out.  Its the first year or two that will determine how they treat the system and also, how 3rd party titles sell will contribute to how much support if any they will put onto the system.

If Red Steel fails in terms of sales and gameplay - for the love of god, fix the problems -, the low 3rd party support the GC had might repeat itself on the Wii.  Ubisoft is one of the big 3rd party developers in the world and if they screw up and Red Steel turns out like trash or sells like trash, other 3rd party developers who are on the fence on the Wii will shift focus to the 360 or PS3.

Red Steel failing would be a problem, yes, but my concern was that the Wii sells out and sells out FAST. Establishing a large user base for the console will be imperative to its success.

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If you honestly think SSBM was rushed and a bad game, then you have absolutely unrealistically high expectations.

That's like being sad oxygen is so plentiful to help you stay alive.

First, that correlation makes absolutely no sense.

Second, SSBM still pales in comparison to its predecessor (more below).

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I know plenty of people who are much better with one clone than another.

That's because some of the clones were made better than their counterparts so people wouldn't hate them as much...

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Also, I've won against people playing Fox, while I was Bowser. And Bowser isn't even my good character (Marth/Sheik).

Yeah, that's great, but the fact is, SSBM tournaments are typically always won by characters which are ranked in tier 1 and occasionally tier 2.

Everyone I know loved SSB. Everyone, without fail. SSB was flawless because it blended just the right mix of speed, luck and strategy that every game could be a toss up when you had 4 excellent players going against each other.

Melee didn't go over as well. The focus of Melee is speed, period. The fact that the top tier is held by the three fastest characters in the game is evidence enough of this.

Because the game is based around speed, it feels looser than the original, "Like a cheap arcade port." as one of my friends put it and "too much like the speed in MK" as another said.

Beyond that, there was a certain charm to the original, something which made it impossible to not play when two people were in the room with the N64. Melee just lacks that charm.

I know that, aside from the tiers, all I have is subjective claims to back my views, but I used to eat, breathe and sleep SSB. That game wasn't a game, it was an event for me and my circle of friends.

All we wanted from Melee was more characters, more levels and better graphics, that's all. Nothing needed to be changed. Why mess with perfection? They then took the game and made it more like Street Fighter: clones, loose controls, and speed is king.

I don't have any hope for Brawl. I just learned from last time when all I hoped Melee to be was an updated version of the original with more content.

[SgtShiversBen]

But what about Samus's up smash from the original?  That was WAY too strong.  Same with Kirby.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Plus Luigi's uppercut -- unusually powerful with an unfairly wide range.
Plus, some stages had a pretty low ceiling, countered by other stages with junk in the air that prevented people from getting knocked off.  The balance was... OFF.

I can see why people are fond of it since it's slower and more patient with all the players waiting for people to land and getting excited over how the events will unfold -- but it hurts the rest of us who wish our characters to physically react as quickly as we generate thoughts.

*I play this series less to compete, but more to cause trouble and express the personality of the characters.
*and hey, i was there for the E3 2001 press conference and saw the AWESOME-O SSBM debut trailer.  So I'm biased.

[SixthAngel]

I suggest Nintendo doesn't listen to tournament freaks very much (no offense).  Make it as balanced as you can but in a game that is supposed to have random items and stages with different advantages you can only do so much, especially when being an expert can often involve finding some glitch.  Concentrate on making the game fun for the average guy who will play with four buddies with items falling and everyone running frantically.

[Spak-Spang]

Personally I feel that if they slow the game down just a tad, and then give bigger characters more weight against smash attacks, and an ability to absorb and attack and attack through an attack then it would be balanced.

[Nick DiMola]

The original Smash Bros. was definitely amazing, but so was Melee. It is easy to pick out problems with each but both have advantages and both have disadvantages. The great thing is that they are two different games, and if you don't like one you can play the other. I am interested to see how Brawl winds up with all the new characters being introduced. All I ask for is balance. Fox was overpowered in SSB and Sheik/Zelda was too powerful/fast in SSBM. Balance issues really make the game annoying at times and I would love to see each character having an equal opportunity to be awesome.

[Mario]

Melee is only unbalanced if you play with boring wankers who turn off all items and play on Final Destination over and over again.

[Strell]

Melee >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSB.

Nothing more needs to be said.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Mario
Melee is only unbalanced if you play with boring wankers who turn off all items and play on Final Destination over and over again.

QFT

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Mario]

Quit 'effing Trolling? It's the truth!

Also, I can confirm Strells post as fact, and I think the fact we're talking about SSBM now means nothing will go wrong at the Wii launch.

[MarioAllStar]

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Originally posted by: Mario
Quit 'effing Trolling? It's the truth!

QFT = Quoted for truth  

[Kairon]

/cry

I'm so misunderstood!

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[IceCold]

Oh, I think he understood it..

[Magik]

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Originally posted by: Spak-Spang


2)Games will come when they come.  Nintendo is learning how to stagger games better and better...and they are learning everyday how to strength their marketing, and product lines.  We notice Nintendo is not afraid to release two titles for a system on the same day anymore. (Tetris and Metroid Prime: Hunters) and Nintendo has commented how they understand launch lineup is important.  So games will be available when they are ready, and they will be great.

Wait, what?  Nintendo is 'learning' how to stagger games better and better?  They should already know how to stagger games in the first place.  They have been in the business for over 20+ years.

3)Online will come when it comes.  People are worried that Nintendo still isn't taking online seriously, and I don't buy it.  Sure there may or may not be any online ready games by launch, but Nintendo has been talking and pushing online content with the Wii since the beginning.  I can wait for a great experience.

Its not that people aren't taking Nintendo seriously when it comes to online, its their strategy that is what people are questioning.  For their sake, it better not be identical to what the DS is using

5)Only a small amount of virtual console games available at launch.  I just really don't see how that will be likely.  It isn't going to take long to convert the ROMS into a virtual console format, and we have known about the virtual console for over a year...which means Nintendo has already known about it for even longer.  Plus, comments that over 100 Sega Genesis and Turbo Graphics 16 games will be available for the console means that Nintendo literally has 100s and 100s of games to put out on the console.  There is no need to worry about releasing too many at once and running out, or anything.  

I agree that there shouldn't be a worry about games being available since all they really need is to develop a tool that will automatically convert the ROMS to the format it will be running on with the Wii.  The only concern is the pricing structure they will implement.  

6)Too many accessories at launch.  This could bring up problems.  But there is only 2 real accessories you need for the Wii.  The classic controllers and the Wiimote.  Everything else will be available for niche gaming, if you desire it.  (Such as the Wiigun) and most of those will be packed into the game using it.

To many accessories in general will become a problem since its known that accessories don't sell well.  Lets hope we don't end up with too many, and hopefully they aren't too pricey

Basically I think these problems are really none issues for the consumer.  They will only become a problem if they haven't been addressed much later after launch...and some are just paranoia anyway.

[Spak-Spang]

Magik:

I think Nintendo's online policy for the DS is a pretty descent strategy.  Using Wifi it has allowed the DS the ability to connect anywhere there is a connection, and Nintendo partnered with companies to advertise certain Wifi hotspots for Nintendo.  Second, Nintendo has worked on a means to implement a safe environment for kids to play online.  Online games with random people have features held back to protect people from dealing with jerks and just have the ability to play online.  While it also protects children from perverts, or just connect with immature adults that can ruin the play experience.  Then with friend codes you can access all the features with your friends, that you know shouldn't bail on you in the middle of a game and such.

The friend's system definately needs some evolving, yet as it stands its shaping up as a great system.  If Nintendo evolves this network for the Wii to allow one friend network for all games, then we will have a very nice system.

And all I meant about staggering games, is Nintendo is releasing more games more frequently, without releasing too many at single times, or having droughts for releasing too many games too soon.  

[Magik]

My problem, as with a lot of people, is the DS online system is very limited and at times lacking basic features.  

I understand they want to create a safe environment and try to filter out all the jerks, I'm all for it, but the very restrictive nature of the system has created holes that allow those problems they are trying to avoid to occur.   I'm talking about sites created solely to trade friend codes.  

Lets take DSPlay for example; one of the more popular Friend Code sites on the net.  The way DSPlay runs is exactly like how any normal service runs.  It has chat where people can interact but this time, Nintendo has no control over that environment so the protection they are trying to achieve with the current system is gone.  

My hope for the Wii at least, is for Nintendo to rid us of the multiple friend code system.  Having individual friend codes for each game is just tedious and annoying since for most people, they end up having the same friends anyways.  And its not fun to enter dozens if not hundreds of friend codes.  They can achieve the same thing with only one friend code bound to the system.

As for release schedules, I hope Nintendo has learned to position their game releases better and avoid situations similar to what happened with Metroid Prime 2 and releasing it AFTER Halo 2.  

[Kairon]

It seems that time and time again, the only concrete, reasonable and well-thought-out suggestion one can give to Nintendo for their online system is to make it one system, one friend code.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Personally I feel that if they slow the game down just a tad, and then give bigger characters more weight against smash attacks, and an ability to absorb and attack and attack through an attack then it would be balanced.

This is all I think would be necessary as well. The only real balance they lack is not making speed the massive advantage that it is. I always thought that heavy characters should be able to completely shrug off attacks thrown by characters which are too weak to interrupt them: the metal cap allows you to do this already.

They've already hinted at slowing Brawl down and if there's to be online play the game will DEFINITELY be slower.

Sorry, but the twitch gameplay of SSBM will not work online where even the slightest bit of latency can mean the difference between a move landing successfully and death.

[vudu]

You people have ruined every single Smash Bros thread on this board.  Do you have to ruin the Pessimism thread, too?

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: vudu
You people have ruined every single Smash Bros thread on this board.  Do you have to ruin the Pessimism thread, too?

I have to make my quota.

Actually, 90% of the alleged "pessimism" in this thread is false: I don't even begin to believe that Nintendo WON'T have TP ready for launch. It would suck, yes, but I'm not actually pessimistic about it because I don't believe it'll happen.

I AM, however, pessimistic about Brawl because, IMHO, Melee wasn't an improvement but rather a step down from SSB. THAT pessimism is 100% genuine and belongs in this thread.

On the subject, I'm also seriously pessimistic about Nintendo's online system. WiiConnect24 already sounds disappointing in the fact that it still requires friend codes. Someone said it best: "Why isn't there a grown-up mode where we can meet and talk to whoever the hell we want?"

I'm glad they've been experimenting with the DS (especially with voice chat), but I'm hoping they don't botch the online facet of the Wii by dumbing it down and making it far too kid-friendly.

Any game with an M-rating should be connectible with voice chat without friend codes. If you're over 18, you're old enough to not be lured to a pedophile's home and if you're NOT over 18, you shouldn't be playing the damn game anyway.

[Ceric]

And if your under 18 how did you get the pedophiles house to begin with.  Are parents just that dense.

[Spak-Spang]

Smash:  Oh I completely agree with the heavy characters need to feel like "Metal characters" I actually think its important to design the engine so that characters can have varying weight that actually makes a distinct difference in Smash attacks distance, and ability to shrug attacks off.  And finally, the effects of metal power.

Bowser getting metal should slow him down to be pretty slow in movement (But not in attack) Yet he literally would be an unmovable beast, that can shrug all damage and dish out much, much pain.  

On the other hand, Peach and Fox should become closer to how regular Boswer reacts when they get metal or a tad less.

I always thought Bowser shouldn't of had a 3rd jump.  That he should have just been an immovable beast, until damage levels were near 200%.  Bowser should have evoked real Smash Brothers fear, yet, take a skilled player to use him effective, and that just wasn't the case.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Spak-Spang I always thought Bowser shouldn't of had a 3rd jump.  That he should have just been an immovable beast, until damage levels were near 200%.  Bowser should have evoked real Smash Brothers fear, yet, take a skilled player to use him effective, and that just wasn't the case.

See, this is where I'm pessimistic on the subject.

They haven't done heavy characters properly for two games and I don't expect that they'll get it right the 3rd time either. Ironically, heavy characters are the easiest to just run right into their face and attack them. It should be the EXACT opposite: they should need to be attacked indirectly in order to have any degree of success. Charging straight at Bowser in any Mario game is generally suicide, yet it's the most legitimate tactic in SSBM.

Is no one else is concerned about WiiConnect?

[Crimm]

I'm worried the confusing title Wii!!M will be so hard to pronounce people will see their head explode attempting it.

[Spak-Spang]

CRIMM:  Pronoucation is nothing in today's marketing and image.  In a marketing class I took, we watched an interview with a very successful marketing agency that basically stated:

It is the image of the name that is important.  That it looks different, unique, and appealing at sight.  That visually people recognize it and KNOW what it is.  From there you can teach the public how to pronounce it.  You can teach the public much about the product.  But that first impression is usually a visual one.

I personally think Wii visually is a cool word, and cool name.  People only complain about it when they hear the pronoucation.  !!M I believe even looks more unique and cool too.

Nintendo's imagining is doing a great job.