Topic: Pearing down the Revolution controller

[KnowsNothing]

Actually, with every voice recognition device I've tried, accents don't matter at all.  No matter who you are or how you sound, the machine will never understand you.

[Bill Aurion]

Noone else found it odd that Miyamoto brings up "graphic chips" in the first place?

[DrGAKMANx]

It's not me, personally, trying to suggest it...it's Miyamoto saying that the new controller will work well with Pikmin and I merely threw out that it could be a trackball or mic.  NO WHERE did I suggest that any and all games should use a mic...nor does having a mic on the controller mean that games will be hindered by it...if a developer doesn't wanna use it, they don't have to, it's not required.

Besides, when I think about mic commands I don't think of actual verbal words ('cos I've never known it to work real well), but more tones & volumes.  Sounds like whistling, singing, blowing, clapping, laughing, yelling...all of which are universal across the world.  When you want your Pikmin to sneak around whisper to them, when you want them to hurry up, yell at them.  Doesn't matter what you say when you do it, just express the proper tone/volume and you're in.

[MrMojoRising]

Quote
Originally posted by: KnowsNothing
Actually, with every voice recognition device I've tried, accents don't matter at all.  No matter who you are or how you sound, the machine will never understand you.

I hope that Odama's voice commands work, because that would be awesome....anyways...The controller should have a mic jack to connect to a headset for voice chat online, then that could also be used in games if a developer wanted.  In pikmin you could actually whistle to grab the attention of your pikmin!  That would be kind of cool, it would be gimmicky and get old really fast, but it would still be cool.

[Dasmos]

At least he finally stated that the interface was the controller...

[Spak-Spang]

If Nintendo could make an Analog stick that can act as both an analog stick and a D-PAD that would be an excelent way of simplifying the controller and still keep functionality...and it would actually be beneficial to fighting games.

What I am thinking is an analog stick that gives you alittle resistance after you push it so far but then allows you to push further.

This would allow you to simulate digital input fairly easily.  Read: Arcade Stick like controls.  As well as giving you even greater analog stick control.  (Basically you have a much easier way to read minor movements required for some games.

If the both isn't possible perhaps the game could set the controller into a position that can restricts movements, for more traditional controls, and then allows for full analog when controllers need it.  

I think that kind of adjustment would be great for gaming, because it takes one more "scary" element to gaming and simplifies it.  

Shoulder Buttons I don't find intemidating at all, when they are designed properly.  Shoulder Buttons are naturally perfect for controls that need varying sensitivity.  Like the Gas and Breaks on a car.  I would actually like a more stiff Shoulder Button with more varying degrees of sensitivity.  A shoulder Button you can press in Half way and it be comfortable to hold that position.

A nice Diamond 4 Button layout would also be ideal.  Four Buttons adds functionality but the SNES shows that it wasn't too much or too demanding.  In Fact following the SNES that allows you reasonably to have two more buttons on the shoulders that act as pure Digital buttons as opposed to the analog Buttons also on the shoulder.

The only question left is what to do with second analog stick?  Dropping it makes it impossible to play Gamecube games, and makes several 3D games very hard to play...however, keeping it clutters the controller and makes it complex again.  I don't have an answer for that problem yet.

[Zach]

Quote
Originally posted by: MrMojoRising
In pikmin you could actually whistle to grab the attention of your pikmin!  That would be kind of cool, it would be gimmicky and get old really fast, but it would still be cool.

Only problem with that is alot of kids (and some adults) cant whistle, so they would have to also map that funtion to a button anyway.    

[Spak-Spang]

Zach:  I think they could easily just map several different sounds to that command...and it would still work fine.

[Spak-Spang]

I am rethinking the analog Stick.  Watch kids play racing games on the current systems, or actually even adults or anyone NOT USED to the analog concept.  

They can't get the controls down and fail at an easy game because the controls confused them.  I have even tried to sit down and explain the controls...and with adults they finally get it after ALOT of practice, but younger children don't get the games at all.

I don't know what the solution is because Analog controls are the best friend of 3D games and one of the best innovations in gaming in my opinion.

Perhaps a much tighter analog stick with the same varying degrees would help make the controls easier to grasp.  But right now it is almost too easy to just push all the way to the edge of the controller and spin out your car or what not.  

I always did like Nintendos analog sticks better because they had more movement to them.  Sony's seemed to hit the edge too quickly, so did Xbox, but Nintendo's had a good feel to them.

Also I hope Nintendo stays away from hidden buttons like the Analog Buttons on the Sony and Xbox controllers.  I find those annoying because they don't make practical sense to the brain.  Oh I control my Camera with this stick but can also click it as a button....OK.

[DrGAKMANx]

Quote
Originally posted by: Dasmos
At least he finally stated that the interface was the controller...

I wouldn't be too sure.  Not saying I believe in VR goggles or 3D glasses or gyro tracking headsets...but I think they refer to the whole user experience as the "interface".  

[IceCold]

"The only question left is what to do with second analog stick? Dropping it makes it impossible to play Gamecube games, and makes several 3D games very hard to play...however, keeping it clutters the controller and makes it complex again. I don't have an answer for that problem yet."

Gyros?

[ShyGuy]

Hmm gyros or a touchpad, both would look non intrusive. Maybe a trigger or a button that has to be toggled first, so you don't move the camera everytime you move the controller.

I'm all for consolidating the two directional inputs on the left side into one, but the problem is a number of gamecube games mapped other functions to the cross pad. (like the spells in Eternal Darkness or the Map in Windwaker)

[Spak-Spang]

Shyguy:  I know.  I can't figure out a means of resolving many of the issues.

You could easily trick the game if there was another Z-button on the left side into holding it down and selecting a direction to react as the D-Pad on the Cube.  A flawed but workable Fix.  

Or you could require people to buy the Cube Controller for Cube games...but then why not just require that for any game that needs more advanced controls.  Its not a good fix at all, in fact its a horrible fix.

I still don't see how Gyros truly enhance gaming.  I am not convinced just yet, and I don't think Nintendo is either.  I feel Nintendo is actually trying to streamline the controller into the perfect input device with no fat.  I really like that idea because I think there is some fat in current controllers that need to be trimmed.  Too often all the buttons on a controller are used just because they are there, and developers aren't challenged to figure out new means of designing the game better.

[Ian Sane]

"I think there is some fat in current controllers that need to be trimmed. Too often all the buttons on a controller are used just because they are there, and developers aren't challenged to figure out new means of designing the game better."

The problem is that Nintendo isn't in a position to challenge developers in that way.  A third party isn't going to say "I have less buttons to work with so I have to be creative."  They're going to say "my PS3 game doesn't work on this controller.  F*ck it.  I just won't bother then."  Exclusive third party games for Nintendo consoles are rare and restricting things to be "challenging" is just going to make it worse.  Nintendo's best bet is to add to the existing design to provide more options but without restricting developers even if it may be "good for them".

[Spak-Spang]

Ian:  Yip.  Again another reason why I don't have an easy solution.

Nintendo could easily design a very well thought out controller that just perfects every element of the current generation controllers, and do ok, but I would still want more.

Either making the Analog Sticks stiffers or adding that slight resistance at one point in the analog movement I think is essential the next generation to add much more control and playability with the controllers, but I doubt we will that.  

I would argue the same with shoulder Buttons.  I would like to see the Digital click feature dropped and just have a much more sensitive and sticker Shoulder Button.  Also add to simple digital click Shoulder buttons just to balance out the design.

Buttons I don't know.  4 on the face is fine, and I would like a means to tell the buttons apart.  Perhaps 4 buttons, the top two have dimpled buttons and the bottom two be normal buttons...then have the top left and bottom right buttons have a raised nudge like on Keyboards "f" and "j" key to help mark the buttons.  If Nintendo did that they would have achieved what they did with the Cube controller, but not hindered double button presses and such.  

Add in a Microphone to every controller and you have the basic controller perfected.  

[ShyGuy]

I think a gyro if done right could add a lot to gameplay. It could be a FPS aiming device, a tennis racket, a paint brush, a golf club, a sword, a baseball bat, a steering wheel, a light gun, a boxing glove, a mouse cursor, etc.

How about this? an optical sensor on the bottom of the controller that could be turned on and then the controller be pushed like a mouse on a surface?

I donno, I just really want to see another kind of analog secondary control added. I really dislike dual analog sticks for aiming. That's why I like Prime and RE4, you just toggle the left stick to aim, it works much better, IMO.

[IceCold]

I agree with you, it does for action-adventure games, where I really don't want to put a lot of effort into aiming. But for FPSes especially, that's the challenge. A dual analogue system definitely isn't the best way to do it though, and I also hope that there is another way.

[Spak-Spang]

Gyros have there own built in problems though.  Room to move while you play, If you have 4 people playing a game in the same room that is going to be a hassle...as well as it would be very easily to shift and accidentally mess up your name.  It isn't going to be as precise as we all think.

Dual Analog is the closest thing we got to really good FPS controls.  Everyone says Mouse and Keyboard have been the best...but its actually a really really bad setup.  The mouse is a decent controller for looking around and aiming, but the keyboard is completely horrible for movement and such.  Its a very unnatural setup.

I believe the reason people believe it is so good is because they learned to play those games with it.  They are used to the setup.

The future needs better device...but again...Gyros aren't the answer.  Perhaps just perfecting Analog controller to allow much more precision is what is required.  

The Gamecube has had the best analog controller to date and even it is flawed from perfection.

[ShyGuy]

I disagree, I think the analog is inherently unsuited for aiming simply because it's a 3D movement device and a reticule or a cursor moves around the screen like a 2D object. That's why a mouse works so well. It's analog and it is 2D.

What'd I'd like to do is pickup a gyro mouse and test it out, but they sell for $79 at the store, and that's still a little pricey for a mouse to me.

[MANTI5]

I have used a gyro mouse and it was horrible. I really feel a gyro controller is not going to happen, it's just not a good idea. Especially if it's used for any repetitive motions, that would get old and tiresome fast.

[Bill Aurion]

It'd get old like holding up on an analog stick...

[Spak-Spang]

Well then lets brainstorm some more.

Can we eliminate the obvious problems with Gyro controls?

Can we figure out ways of making an Analog Stick behave similar to a digital Arcade stick to eliminate the need for a D-Pad?

Can we figure out a means to get more definate precision with an analog joystick.  I believe the analog stick should be so well designed that you can feel how sharp you are turning or how fast you are running from the position of the stick not just the onscreen clues...how do we achieve that?  

Is a trackball/mouse a legit answer?  It would definately open up some more possibilities in game design.  (Wario Ware or Mario Party would ROCK with a trackball addition to the controller.)

[ShyGuy]

My arm never got tired playing Duck Hunt, but I guess that's neither here nor there.

I guess the ideal thing would be to have a changeable interface, but that requires either a touch screen, parts that swap out, or a number of different controllers.

[DrGAKMANx]

Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Well then lets brainstorm some more.

Can we eliminate the obvious problems with Gyro controls?

Can we figure out ways of making an Analog Stick behave similar to a digital Arcade stick to eliminate the need for a D-Pad?

Can we figure out a means to get more definate precision with an analog joystick.  I believe the analog stick should be so well designed that you can feel how sharp you are turning or how fast you are running from the position of the stick not just the onscreen clues...how do we achieve that?  

Is a trackball/mouse a legit answer?  It would definately open up some more possibilities in game design.  (Wario Ware or Mario Party would ROCK with a trackball addition to the controller.)

I totally believe in what Teddman saw/said about the Revolution controller.  I don't think it's the end-all be-all though.  For instance, I think the (GCN-like) placement and basic features will be like what he saw so as to give developers a fast heads-up with beta Revolution developement kits.  But the controller, as a whole, will be more comfortably layed out and possibly have some feature changes/added with final developement kits.

Teddman basically saw a wavebird with a SNES button layout and was told there was no gyros or touch screen even planned at all.  However, he didn't know what was internal nor do any of us know what Nintendo may add later.  Teddman is just a journalist, not a developer...and the developer he talked to may have been throwing him off...but I do believe now, that there won't be gyros or a touch screen due to them being impractical, complex & expensive.  I could be wrong, but the recent Miyamoto interview, Nintendo's past statements about simplicity and Teddman support what I'm saying here.

Then there's the King Dea blog...say what you will, but his discription basically fits what Teddman said of it *looking* like a WaveBird while (since he's suppossedly a developer) listing internal features.  He also says no screen, but he mentions gyro's, but like in passing.  I'm thinking this magical gyro journey will merely be a tilt pak (like what's in some GBA games and what was planned on being in the NDS).  This still would benifit gaming being able to move the controller for control, but it's no replacement for a stick or fluent 3D movement.  King Dea also states a more advanced force feedback, a heating/cooling sensation when holding the controller and grip sensitive handles...all of which would be more internal things Teddman couldn't see in his 10 second glance...so they may be true.  King Dea also says the secondary C-Stick is replaced by a trackball which doesn't fit with what Teddman say, but again, the GCN's C-Stick would look and work a little like a trackball so maybe the early developement kits came with a C-Stick equiped controller, but the final controller will have it replaced by a trackball.  King Dea also mentions a mic & secondary L & R triggers, neither of which Teddman could see so could also be possible.

So...what...it's a modified GCN controller?  Maybe so.  Maybe the Revolution isn't one magical thing, maybe it's a bunch of smaller things altogether.  I'm also thinking that the revolutionary interface doesn't neccessarily mean just the controller...otherwise they'd stop saying interface and instead say controller.  What if the console's interface in itself is revolutionary (ex: a console/mobile hybrid game machine) and/or maybe the revolution refers to exclussive graphical enhancements on the system like cube-mapping or how fast/cheap/easy it is to make games for.  I'm thinking the "Revolution" itself is all of these things.

As far as Spak-Spang's comments on a new control stick/D-Pad solution, I've given alot of thought to this.  Nintendo pioneered both and Miyamoto's recent comments about analog being difficult for some players and then he question's which one should be primary to the controller even.  I'm hoping both are included, but I'm thinking that the D-Pad will be evolved and that (instead of setting it into a secondary possition like on the GCN controller) both the stick will be in primary possition to use for control depending on preference.  This makes the controller look less busy, is accomendating to people who prefer one or the other and still offers backwords compatibility with GCN games as well as ports from other systems.  How to advance the D-Pad though, hmmm?  I've thought of making it more rounded and more pressure sensitive so it's almost as precise as an analog stick or even putting a small jogball in the center of it to give it a dual function of a stiff 8 dirrectional D-Pad plus the precision of a trackball.

[ShyGuy]

Just throwing this out there, do you guys remember the SpaceOrb? It was an early attempt at 3D control for the PC.