Topic: Pearing down the Revolution controller

[stevey]

There are cube port on the rev so the rev controller won't play cube game. and I hope that it's real all it need is a joystick and it done. wwt had rumble and motion sensor in one cart.

[KDR_11k]

Ian: I have a feeling people would still complain if they needed to buy extra gyros for multiplayer...

[Ian Sane]

"I have a feeling people would still complain if they needed to buy extra gyros for multiplayer..."

Yeah but they would complain about higher controller prices too particularly if they had no intention of playing motion sensor games.  Either way someone is going to complain so compromise.

It all depends on how a game is designed anyway.  Crystal Chronicles and Four Swords Adventure pissed people off because not only did they require expensive hardware but they were designed in such a way that they relied on multiplayer to even be remotely enjoyable.  If Nintendo had released a one-player connectivity game people wouldn't have complained as much.  So if Nintendo did this and released one player motion sensor games like they have on the GBA it would be no problem.  If they released offline "multiplayer only or it's boring" games that require gyros then they would be just asking for backlash.

This would have the advantage in that every Rev owner would have at least one gyro so if your friends own a Rev they can bring their motion pack with them when they come over.  That's not perfect but it's more flexible and realistic than connectivity was.  Plus the Rev is online so someone can own only one controller and still play multiplayer.

If they can cram everything in a controller without it being ridiculous expensive and without f*cking the rest of the controller up then they should do it.  But I sure as hell won't pay more money for extra features that I consider pretty gimmicky anyway.  Odds are either way you're going to pay for it so you might as well make it a seperate purchase.  You can pay $40 for a controller with a gyro built in or $30 for a controller plus $10 for a gyro.  

[Nile Boogie]

Why do people feel as if the Rev controller has to play GameCube games? That makes no sense to me.  And do we know if the Gamecube controller will be compatible with Revolution games: e.i. PS3 and 360ports that have more buttons and analog control?

I know what was said in EGM but it still seems unclear about what the Rev controller can do and still have "fewer buttons and Sticks".  

[Spak-Spang]

The latest Revolution interview had a comment about the controller I found interesting.  They said will be compatiable with all the systems...but read how they worded it.  It makes it sound like the controls won't neccessarly be the most perfect means to playing the old games...nor will it be the definative solution.

I predict the Revolution controller will work with all systems, but not very well.  So that Trackball not being perfect for the Gamecube, but still being there is believable.

I actually believe Nintendo will be releasing wireless versions of the classic controllers for a fairly cheap price.

If you downloaded the entire NES library and you want to play it old school, then you can buy a cheap wireless NES controller and such.  Though realistically they will probably only do this with the SNES and Nintendo 64 controllers.  

That would be the perfect solution.  You could easily offer a 2 pack wireless SNES controllers for $25-30 dollars.  Same with a wireless Nintendo 64 controller.

[Nile Boogie]

I love the idea of old school wireless controllers.

[Spak-Spang]

Sorry for the 2 posts in a row.

Ian:  I like your idea in theory.

Besides Nintendo could easily package game with bonus Motion sensor packs, and rumble packs.  Promotions could also be used for preorders.  Preorder the Revolution and get an extra Rumble and Motion sensor pack.  Preorder Smash Brothers and get a free Motion Sensor.  Preorder Pikmin and get a free Rumble pack...eventually you could have four of everything pretty easily...and it would boost Nintendo's preorder sales.

I think the Microphone can and should be built into the controller, that way you don't need too attachments.

[Ian Sane]

"Why do people feel as if the Rev controller has to play GameCube games?"

Because it would be very inconsiderent to new users if it didn't.  Those of us who own Gamecubes can always just use our old controllers but someone who didn't own a Cube and bought a Rev partially because of Cube backwards compatibility wouldn' t have that luxury.  They would have to buy two different sets of controllers and that would be unacceptable.  Requiring the purchase of old controllers would really hurt the appeal of backwards compatibility.  I view the inclusion of Cube controller ports as being user-friendly so that a few accessory driven games like Donkey Konga and Four Swords Adventures can still be playable with four players.

Plus if the Rev controller can't play Cube games then it's probably fair to say that it would be ill-suited to play modern games.  Plus it since the other consoles' controller are so similar to the Cube design it would kill multiplatform third party support and possibly third party support period.  If it can't play games from last generation then it's a restrictive worthless hunk of junk.

I like the idea of Nintendo selling classic style controllers but I wouldn't want to have to buy those old controllers.  That sort of requirement would really hurt the selling point of the download service.  It is so easy to just download those games illegally for free.  You throw any sort of unnecessary hassle into the concept and people will just say "f*ck it" and stick to downloading roms.

[Nile Boogie]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Why do people feel as if the Rev controller has to play GameCube games?"

Because it would be very inconsiderent to new users if it didn't.  Those of us who own Gamecubes can always just use our old controllers but someone who didn't own a Cube and bought a Rev partially because of Cube backwards compatibility wouldn' t have that luxury.  They would have to buy two different sets of controllers and that would be unacceptable.  Requiring the purchase of old controllers would really hurt the appeal of backwards compatibility.  I view the inclusion of Cube controller ports as being user-friendly so that a few accessory driven games like Donkey Konga and Four Swords Adventures can still be playable with four players.

Plus if the Rev controller can't play Cube games then it's probably fair to say that it would be ill-suited to play modern games.  Plus it since the other consoles' controller are so similar to the Cube design it would kill multiplatform third party support and possibly third party support period.  If it can't play games from last generation then it's a restrictive worthless hunk of junk.

So if their a "New User" that would mean they don't have any GameCube games either and would have to go out and purchuse them as well. If the RevOluton didn't have GameCube ports already on the unit the I would agree totally. But if you don't have a GameCube and all you have to do to have access to 400+ games is buy a $24.99 joystick I'm not sure that's asking too much. Besides if indeed Nintendo is saying that this is a Super Deluxe GameCube then can't developers make games for the RevOlution with the GameCube controller in mind, if you get where I'm going.

[couchmonkey]

Ian's right, forcing people to buy old controllers to play the backwards-compatible games would be silly.  I wouldn't be too surprised to see Nintendo shoehorn existing functions into different types of input (c-stick into trackball? Not likely, but maybe....) but I'm sure it will include all the needed functionality for backwards compatibility in the main controller.  Besides, the last interview they had basically said that the controller will allow cross-platform games.

[Spak-Spang]

What I mentioned isn't forcing.

Nintendo said all the systems are playable via the Revolution controller, they just may not be the best.

In other words.  The C-Ball could be used as a C-Stick in most cases work fine, perhaps even work BETTER...but for those that want to use Gamecube Controllers then you can use the Gamecube ports.

Now for SNES and NES ports I really think all those games will be easily playable, but some classic gamers may want the feel of the old SNES controller.  In that sense providing a Retro Controller would be good...and Even better for simplifying controllers for say fighting games.

The only controller that would possible be hard to emulate with the Revolution controller would be the Nintendo 64 controller.  However, I don't see that as a big issue.  However, having a wireless N64 controller to buy would be great for purists that want to feel the Z-trigger for First Person shooters and such.  

Heck if its cheap enough 3rd parties could get in on the mix and create controllers for their special games.

[Nile Boogie]

Can somebody explain the cost effectiveness of putting four(4) unnecessary ports on a machine that doesn't require you to use them.  I don't  think Donkey Konga and Mario DDR is enough for them to include GameCube ports if they didn't intend for them to be required. Need I remind you all of the digital-out port on the GameCube. No way they put 4-ports on the Rev as a courteous gesture to the previous generation.  I am more than sure that when the RevOlution finally drops that the price of the Cube and all its 1st-party products will drop to a even more consumer friendly price.  No Dual Shock(lawsuit I know) support for PS3, No S-type Support for 360 and no ports for either of system.

Maybe I just don't see what you good folks are seeing. I do have a open mind to learn if I am wrong however.  

[Ian Sane]

"Can somebody explain the cost effectiveness of putting four(4) unnecessary ports on a machine that doesn't require you to use them."

It's not really that cost effective to put in DVD playback either.  Sure they're selling a DVD playback kit but there's no real need for such a feature.  They're just putting it in to be more flexible.  Nintendo has a largely justfiable image of being an inflexible dickhead who gleefully jerks their fanbase around to save pennies.  Putting Cube ports on the Rev works to repair that image.  The cost of of adding the ports is made up by the consumer goodwill they bring and the increased sales that result from it.  There are a lot of Nintendo fans that have reached their limit in tolerating Nintendo's BS.  Being user friendly is pretty much a requirement to keep those fans on board.

Plus forcing people to own two different types of controllers is such a STUPID idea.  I don't trust Nintendo that much anymore but I still find it hard to believe they're that incompetant.  There's being out-of-touch and then there's being a complete moron.

[nickmitch]

If Nintendo took that 1st mock-up and removed the track ball and the screen, and then add a Z-button, then they'd have a cheap solution to the backwards compatibility thing. If the Rev controller isn't enough for people who want that classic feel then that provides a solution.

[DrGAKMANx]

The GCN ports are for full backwords compatibility.  DK wouldn't be cool without bongo's, FF:CC & LOZ:4 Swords would lose itself without connectivity, DDR Mario wouldn't be right without the dancepad, MP6 loses it's function without the mic...yadda yadda yadda.  Plus, if there's any peripherals or specialty controllers that would require themselves to be hard-wired then those ports could be used for that.  The ports could also double as a special recharging station for your controllers maybe.

I'm hoping that the Revolution controller can be used to play GCN games, but whenever Nintendo refers to the "interface" they always say that it'll work well for backwords compatibility with NES, SNES & N64 games...leaving out the GCN games.  Cutting out functionality by making it incompatible with GCN games would likely mean that ports from other systems (who use similar to GCN type controllers) would not be wise.

Adding controller slots (like with N64, DC & X-BOX) back would be nice for expansion, but I'm hoping that whatever revolutionary features are BUILT-IN to each controller from the get-go.  Besides, there was an oppurtunity to do lot's of things with controller slots in the past, adding slots now just goes right back to those problems of having to buy all these new "paks" to get full function with some games.  I'm more liking the idea of having a EXT port that can be attached to different options outside of the controller like the GameBoy mini.

[Nile Boogie]

I will concede until further information is revealed. I guess I didn't believe Nintendo would care about going the extra mile after the GameCube Digital-out thing and the whole no HD Revolution drama (which I'm all for). I feel like a bitter wife left to eat dinner by herself while her husband works late at a job that he should of quit long ago because he's so much better than something, something something (my girlfriend only watches LIFETIME, Oxygen and LMN and it sucks chunks of cow poo).

[KDR_11k]

The GCN ports are for full backwords compatibility.

?rof ytilibitapmoc sdrowkcab deen uoy od tahW

[trip1eX]

So gyros and some kind of trackpad or trackball or something in the next controller.  

The gyro stuff seems like a nobrainer given that they have used that tech in 2 or 3 gameboy advance games and it seems small enough.  

The hint that the controller will be good for a pikmin game means some kind of mouse-like device.  Possibly this is the gyro too (Nintendo has that tech agreement with the makers of gryo mice,)  tho possibly it is a trackpad/ball.

[Nile Boogie]

A trackball mixed with some kinda light sensor(like the zapper) plus a lazer pointer.

[Fro]

http://cube.gamespy.com/articles/636/636728p1.html

New Shiggy interview in Gamespy talking about controller design.

[Ian Sane]

In that Shiggy interview he mentions the choice between an analog stick and a d-pad and whether you need both as well as making things less intimidating.  I feel that an analog stick and a d-pad are both needed so I was thinking about how to make one device act as both and I came up with a neat concept for the controller.

What's one controller design that is not intimidating?  Arcade joystick setups.  You have the stick and a bunch of big buttons.  Arcades in their prime had huge mass appeal so few would find that intimidating.  A d-pad is needed for digital control but an arcade joystick is just as good if not better.  Shoulder buttons can be intimidating but the reason they exist is to make it easier to push several buttons at once.  That's easier to do with an arcade stick because you can use all of your fingers for face buttons instead of just your thumb.  The one thing missing is an analog stick.  I suggest that the analog stick be on the top of the joystick.  Think of how you hold an arcade joystick.  It would be pretty easy to pop your thumb on top and use the analog stick.  They could put a feature in that locks the digital joystick in place so that you can use the analog stick without the joystick underneath moving around.  They can throw a trackball on the controller then as well since it's an arcade staple.  A z-trigger style button on the joystick for your index finger would also work well for N64 compatibility.

The only problem is Cube compatibility.  I don't like the idea of requiring the use of the Cube controller ports for backwards compatibility but at the very least it's a workaround even if it's not very user-friendly.

I don't really think this is that great of a controller design but I could see Nintendo using an arcade style design.  It would certainly make things simpler for non-gamers.  It's also a concept that has existed for a long time yet hasn't been brought to home consoles in a major way (except the Neo Geo).  Nintendo did suggest that it's an existing concept that people just haven't thought to use.

[nickmitch]

Quote
Miyamoto says that Nintendo has created such a controller.

Well at least it's done.

[IceCold]

I think they have many variations and are still tweaking all of them a bit - notice before he said that he said they are "going to have to find a way"

And he said that the controller is very easy to copy; hopefully it isn't the only unique feature of the Rev

Oh, and about your arcade controller idea Ian, I don't know about that. First, it would be too big. Also. when you would use the analogue stick if it were on top of the joystick it would feel odd because of the height difference from it to the buttons. Then the buttons would be too many - I know this was part of arcades, but I don't like the idea of so many buttons, and using all of your fingers apart from your thumb would be confusing to me.

That's why i like that idea of the d-pad encompassing a trackball - saves space and is definitely more inviting and simple.

[DrGAKMANx]

Someone said something about the Miyamoto Pikmin quote.  I'm thinking it's either related to a trackball and/or mic...'cos both of those work for Pikmin IMO.

As far as the Nintendo quote about using something different/new...that was meant that it wasn't new, just new to gaming.  An arcade stick is not new to gaming...plus it'd kill portability.  It would help in bringing back...old...old school gamers back, but I don't think it's likely.

Someone was talking about a new way to invent the D-Pad or control stick.  I came up with a concept (that I don't think will happen, but it's an idea) of a large D-Button with a small jogball (like a smaller, softer more sensitive trackball) placed in the center.  The D-Button would work like an 8 dirrectional D-Pad only it would be pressure sensitive to a degree in each dirrection either determining the possition or intensity of a press.  The jogball could be used in conjuction or as a more sensitive way to control.  The problem is using it in a game that required a stick and a D-Pad at the same time (Metroid Prime ex: moving with the stick, changing visors with the D-Pad) as it would be hard to tell the "D-Button" which function (digital or more analog) the player wanted to use.

[Ian Sane]

"I'm thinking it's either related to a trackball and/or mic...'cos both of those work for Pikmin IMO."

I would find having to talk into a mic to control functions that could easily be assigned to a button to get really annoying really quickly.  Who the hell wants to talk to their games all the time?  Plus accents and different vocal ranges would goof it all up.  Voice activation phone systems don't work worth crap and are a huge pain to use.  Do we really want THAT to become a standard for game control?  I imagine anyone from the southern States or Newfoundland or certain parts of Britian or from a non-English speaking country would be screwed.  Thick accents = broken controls.