Topic: Revolution Eschews High Definition

[chlupe]

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Originally posted by: nolimit19
trust me...i dont think nitendo is perfect. i get down on nintendo as much as anyone, but nintendo is a business and business isnt about market share or "image" as much as it is about profit margins.

And Nintendo posted its first loss in a long while a few quarters ago because of its dwindling market share. So think about that.

[31 Flavas]

Quote
Originally posted by: chlupe

And Nintendo posted its first loss in a long while a few quarters ago because of its dwindling market share. So think about that.

Because of dwindling market share? Did you even read the press releases on that loss?

[31 Flavas]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Virtually no stores would carry them even if Nintendo did. Don't forget how 3rd rate the Gamecube is considered to be."

The fact that the Cube is considered "3rd rate" proves Bloodworth's point that Nintendo doesn't always know what they're doing.

So Nintendo should just throw everything out the window, make $299 systems, increase load times by 2 minutes, release "The Man Game w/ Mario", and, of course, make systems with flimsy DVD drives so that they DRE and self-destruct after warranty. Sorry, but No, Nintendo doesn't need to be come a hipster. Sure, they won't be the "cool" kid everyone wants to hangout with, but we know what happens to cool kids now don't we?

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"If there was real demand for the componet cables Nintendo would know because differnt people would keep order them, and they are the only place to order them."

This is total Nintendo logic.  Next you'll tell me there was no demand for Cube online games because of poor broadband adapter sales.

Well I would say its not the same argument, the purchasing motivation on component cables comes from the users end (i.e. Buying an HDTV). Where as the purchasing motivation for the BBA comes from the software developers end. In both cases, though, the purchasing motivator is very low to next to non-existant. You know, presumably you more then anyone, if someone had developed more then just Fantasy Star it would have sold BBA's just like Nintendogs sold DS systems. The fact that Nintendo wasn't interested in creating online games yet is no reason that 3rd parties couldn't and shouldn't take advantage of the ability.

It seems, though, that you're such a "hardcore" on fancy new gaming trends that by Nintendo not throwing caution to the wind and not supporting it means that Nintendo has completely and fully forsaken it, forever. Well, get over it.  

[Aussie Ben PGC]

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You know, presumably you more then anyone, if someone had developed more then just Fantasy Star it would have sold BBA's just like Nintendogs sold DS systems. The fact that Nintendo wasn't interested in creating online games yet is no reason that 3rd parties couldn't and shouldn't take advantage of the ability.

Not true.  As nolimit has said, it all comes down to profit.  What is the point of investing all your company's time, effort and money into developing an online game for a system if it turns out to be a total flop and doesn't make you any money?  As far as I'm aware, Microsoft encourages developers to make Live games because they want more online games out there.  Similarly, Nintendo was offering royalty discounts or some such thing to developers if they created games that used their 'innovative' GC to GBA cable feature.

There's also the fact that it would be incredibly difficult for third party developers to support a peripheral that isn't even getting first party support.  Development kits would probably have archaic tools for online development, making the whole idea more unattractive by the second.  Especially when the other two systems want online games.  Nintendo made it quite clear this generation - if you want to make online games, you can go elsewhere for that.  

[Ian Sane]

"So Nintendo should just throw everything out the window, make $299 systems, increase load times by 2 minutes, release "The Man Game w/ Mario", and, of course, make systems with flimsy DVD drives so that they DRE and self-destruct after warranty. Sorry, but No, Nintendo doesn't need to be come a hipster. Sure, they won't be the "cool" kid everyone wants to hangout with, but we know what happens to cool kids now don't we?"

Since when did load times, The Man Game, and DREs sell PS2s and Xboxes?  Those are flaws that most PS2 and Xbox owners hate but are willing to deal with because there's enough good stuff to make for it.  If the Cube had these it would probably sell even worse.  Nintendo can have a more successful console without copying Sony.  Nintendo's negative image is based on stupid stuff they do that pisses everyone off including most of their fans.  Nintendo's standing in the console market is largely due to their own incompetence.  Sony and MS do better because they just plain don't screw up as often.  Ten years ago Nintendo was on the ball.  Now they're not so the Cube is seen as third rate.

At the very least if Nintendo knew what they were doing all the time they would have a more neutral image in the public eye (the Xbox is nowhere near the market leader yet it doesn't have a negative image) and at the very least wouldn't be pissing off sections of their own fanbase.

My point with the broadband adapter is that in both cases there were concepts that did not rely on Nintendo's support but required connections that Nintendo made difficult to obtain.  Nintendo didn't make online games and didn't have to use Progressive Scan.  Third parties still could have supported both accessories.  But Nintendo didn't allow either accessory to have any widespread availability so neither sold and neither were well supported.  The component cables and the broadband adapter both flopped because Nintendo made no effort to get them in people's homes.  The component cables obviously will work with all games unlike the broadband adapter so it's a fair bit different, but the general point is that Nintendo didn't push either concept and then claimed there was no interest.

[Shecky]

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Originally posted by: Bloodworth
Nintendo's biggest motivation is in limiting the cost of developing games at those resolutions.  They're likely also concerned about the performance trade-off.  The problem is that they're once again acting like they're leading the industry.  They think they're doing licensees a favor by keeping the costs low, but they don't seem to take into account the concept that games like Madden will be put on their competitors' systems as well, and as such, EA will have already spent that money.

Bah, the whole "doing the industry a favor" thing is rubbish.  There is a real cost in terms of hardware, and so this is just a corner that Nintendo plans on cutting.  Doesn't mean the revolution is going to be any cheaper either - every corner that gets cut does not translate to savings to the end user.  I think PaLaDiN also has a point, and they could just be fealing the market response.  They have pleanty of time to tweak until the system is finalized considering they're practically a year away, and negative feedback is easier to measure

[Athlon-pv]

Ill say it here

The revolution probably cant handle it , this will mean that Nintendo is again stuck with a "custom memory" approach for the revolution (which developers bitched about before). So again no easy ports.

Probably the whole architechture is not designed to handle such bandwidth or higher resolution graphics from the start  to the finish.

Nintendo still has time i think. But it is _very_ clear that they probably underestimated the market _again_ .


Graphics sells systems , if not we be stuck still with the Atari 2600.  TV's are getting cheaper and the ones with HDMI input are at "consumer" prices now anywhere between $800 $1000 for ones that support 720p (which is a clear step up from normal TV resolution).

We dont have to guess why Sony or MS like to go that way it is not even important why they want it. Even tho we been spammed to death in the early days of the XBoX with graphics that you simply couldnt get out of "a" "TV" and Xbox.

Now if Nintendo is going to scream it is all about games, i can buy a dedicated pac-man arcade to connect to my TV and play that all day long. If i wanted old SNES or N64 titles i would have bought it already (niche market again FFS Nintendo get serious).

Now is HD TV support going to be blissfull and garantee everlasting profits , NO.
Is it going to make the Revolution much more expensive , NO.
Is it going to get us going, YES.

Thank you

[mantidor]

"Graphics sells systems"

They used to sell systems, but now it seems its simply not enough, otherwise the psp would be crushing the DS in Japan, and whats actually happening is the total opposite. The problem is not the good graphics, the problem I see is that they are already good enough! average people wont notice an important difference in the next gen, nothing even close to the 2D-3D jump and even the N64-GC jump, Im very sure of that.

And this deal of HD is really starting to get annoying, if the Rev ends in last place Im 100% sure all the internet gaming media will blame it on that, as they did with onine, and thats just a bunch of crap. The problem is and has always been basically third party support, some of the big games of the other consoles like GTA or Halo didnt have online and it didnt stop them to push their consoles in sales and popularity. Not to mention how niche internet gaming was this generation, but of course internet gaming sites cant see the whole picture, for us, posting in an internet forum, seems that online is a big deal, but guess what? this generation it really wasnt.  

[stevey]

"blah blah blah!" Why can't you make better graphics on a non hd tv?  

[Athlon-pv]

Japan is probably the only market which is "immune" to the graphics department North America and Europe far more sensitive towards this. And Japan just went ape over Nintendodogs . And if you wanted to put me down on my own  argument you could have said then howcome the PS2 is king and not the Xbox  .

There are somethings which cant be explained. Well if anyone knew at Nintendo that higher resolution will make them #1 again they do it in a heartbeat

Online market is still not a strong selling point, i never had the urge to buy a console to go play games online.

TV resolution just plainly sucks "better" graphics come from framebuffer features such as anti-alias and so on. But still we need some more pixels 352*256 orso or whatever weird overscan number you wanna put there. Is nothing much to look at these days.

This is a limit on TV's even stuff like NTSC and PAL differ from  eachother (in colours, framerate and resolution). You will never be able todo anything more with it then the number mentioned above. While Sony boasted that their games will be a standard 2000*1000 pixels widescreen format ... 1080p . Overkill means nothing but to get stuck in the past doesnt win any awards either .

[Bloodworth]

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Graphics sells systems , if not we be stuck still with the Atari 2600.

True, but HD is another ballgame.  This is a graphical step that a lot of people simply won't be able to take advantage of.  Plenty of people buy their TVs from garage sales or from friends that are upgrading, and would never consider spending more than $100 on a set even if they're willing to spend a lot on games.  

The rumors about the Revolution being underpowered are completely based on assumption and Nintendo's "bad habit" of trying to give realistic estimates about their machines' performance, which people suddenly compare to MS and Sony's bloated numbers.  But the numbers don't matter even if you are a graphics junkie, unless you can actually see a difference in the graphics.  The PS2 was supposedly more powerful than the GameCube on paper, but GameCube games tend to look better overall.

[Ian Sane]

"And this deal of HD is really starting to get annoying, if the Rev ends in last place Im 100% sure all the internet gaming media will blame it on that, as they did with onine, and thats just a bunch of crap."

I believe the Cube ended up last not just because of no online but because of that plus several other dumb little oversights Nintendo had.  No online plus a long post-launch drought, tiny memory cards, losing Rare, having the least flexible controller, having smaller discs, not having widely available demo discs, etc is why the Cube didn't really catch on.  It was a combination of a lot of dumb sh!t, most of which should have been spotted a mile away.  So I fear that HD is the first dumb oversight on the Rev and that more are coming.  No HD support will likely be one of many problems, some of which are totally avoidable and some that aren't.  This problem is easily avoidable so Nintendo should catch it now.  The Cube flopped because Nintendo just kept giving people reasons not to buy it.  They just gave the Rev the first reason not to buy it and they didn't have to.

[Earthbound_4ever]

And the fact that the 'cube launched without a true mario game, and when the next mario flagship title finally was realesed it was arguably the worst of the entire 7 game franchise (which means it was still really good), and the fact the gamecube was the last console to be released (over one year after the PS2!), and the fact it was the only one that could never play DVDs, aannddd the fact Nintendo, bless their silly souls, played right into their I LOVE HALO 2 image curse by showcasing the console as a bright purple lunchbox and then presented a cell-shaded Zelda (Windwaker rocked, but we're talking about image here not reality) aaaannnnddd the fact the GBA conn. never really materilized into anything big, aanndddddd the fact that they never released another Eartbound game , all contributed to the 'cube's basement housing.

[stevey]

"And the fact that the 'cube launched without a true mario game"

WHAT! I LOVED LUIGI'S MANSOIN! LOVED IT! LOVED IT! LOVE IT!!! IT WAS THE BEST GAME I HAVE EVER PLAY!!! HOW DARE YOU SAY IT SUCK! YOU *ASTERING MONSTER!

[KDR_11k]

So, um, where was Luigi's mansion a true Mario game?

[Pale]

Hahah...losing Rare was one of Nintendo's mistakes?  Maybe you can say that AFTER they actually release a good game...if that ever comes.

Sorry, I just thought I'd beat that horse one more time.

Do any of you get sick of taking years off of your life by stressing about a basically unannounced system?  Give it a rest guys.

[Athlon-pv]

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Originally posted by: Bloodworth

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Graphics sells systems , if not we be stuck still with the Atari 2600.

True, but HD is another ballgame.  This is a graphical step that a lot of people simply won't be able to take advantage of.  Plenty of people buy their TVs from garage sales or from friends that are upgrading, and would never consider spending more than $100 on a set even if they're willing to spend a lot on games.  

The rumors about the Revolution being underpowered are completely based on assumption and Nintendo's "bad habit" of trying to give realistic estimates about their machines' performance, which people suddenly compare to MS and Sony's bloated numbers.  But the numbers don't matter even if you are a graphics junkie, unless you can actually see a difference in the graphics.  The PS2 was supposedly more powerful than the GameCube on paper, but GameCube games tend to look better overall.

I tend to agree that the numbers game that is being ran now is silly.
"All" of "us" "veteran" gamers know that because a game runs at 800*600 doesnt mean it somehow is crap and or could be the best if it somehow ran at 1024*768.

"underpowered" might not be a good term and lets turn it around, Sony and MS have overpowered PC alike gaming machine's. Which is unclear if this is an advantage at this point. Except for the fact that it is easy to program for.

Nintendo expects sales based on their games for whatever reason. Nintendo probably cant stay afloat on 3rd party titles being sold on all console's unless the owner owns just a Revolution. Nintendo by their own hands has got to make such a huge impact (gaming wise) to wipeout the competition on this front that i would be stunned if they could pull it of.  

And i dont think that Revolution will be underpowered but just not "fit" todo the job with higher resolution graphics. In all estimate's and showings of the console it looks good it seems to be something they worked hard on also something which was expected (same as gamecube , new CPU new GFX chip), nothing groundbreaking.

And im not so sure if "gamers" would not buy TV with HDMI input. It seems to be a way forward better graphics and such. Let me give you an example of a TV with such features (in english)

http://www.jvc.nl/site/nl/dynapix/index.html

It shows you the options which a LCD HD TV by JVC has as a standard. And yes the world probably doesnt have as much HDTV's sold for it to be a slamdunk ....

But certainly featurewise important enough for the competitors to focus on (also due to the fact that the CPU and gfx chip on those prolly not do anything if they were just used for a standard TV signal) .

And i think when Sony launched the PS2 DVD's were not even common.

It is hard to say , my gut feeling tells me when i saw Defender of the Crown on the Amiga that i would very much like to own the computer that was able to produce such amazing graphics. But still it is a mix of games you like and good graphics more then just eye candy tech demo's with no soul.

[KDR_11k]

You remember that there's more to an LCD than resolution, right? These things tend to deliver bad colors and blur a moving image.

DVD was a different matter, you could use the DVD function if you bought a twenty dollar disk to play on it, you need a very expensive HDTV for HD.

[Athlon-pv]

Basicly there are cheap HD-TV's below $1000 price range , there are no cheap 1080p  televisions. Which indeed are expensive.

The JVC products i hear have no such short comings (models introduced this year).

Check the link i gave that will surely take away some doubt as to LCD tv's not being capable enough .

[KDR_11k]

Below 1000 is still too much, most TVs are bought on very small budgets from garage sales and stuff. You'd want to go below 200.

[vudu]

Wait...you want some company to sell an HDTV with an MSRP of $200 because you can get a used TV for under $200 at a garage sale?  That makes no sense.

[PaLaDiN]

He's talking about the maximum price for any real market penetration.

Hence the use of "most".

[Athlon-pv]

There will be plenty of people with a HDTV , same goes for internet but there are more console owners without internet then with internet ....

It is not as much a factor as you make it. Since the Revolution will support internet ....

[nolimit19]

more people in the US have internet access than dont -- high speed connection is another thing, but more people have high speed internet than have HDTV's.

[Chode2234]

Personally I just think it is Nintendo marketing.  Releasing a bit of information here and there to keep the Revolution in the headlines and on peoples minds, but being very carefull not to raise expectations.  I think they want to catch us by surprise and blow us away, giving us all sorts of things they previously weren't going to.