Author Topic: The presidents in a war of words.  (Read 25739 times)

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Offline ThePerm

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RE:The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2005, 03:26:20 PM »
it seems some peoiple are confusing hd-dvd and hd-tv

also, the revolution might not get the msotyp owerful processor...but it will most likely have a very awesome gpu. This generation the gpu is more important than the cpu. If you think about it....physics, data processing, ai, their all done on the cpu....but no one ever tells the cpu to make the graphics..they will use the gpu because its much more efficient.

There is also rumors that rev will have an individual physics and sound processor...which would take a load off the cpu and make the system even more efficient.
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Offline jasonditz

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RE: The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2005, 03:47:10 PM »
Indeed, a good enough GPU and, PPU or no, you can make a system using a G4 1.5 Ghz that looks a LOT better than the Xbox 360's early footage.  

Offline Bloodworth

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RE: The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2005, 05:42:43 PM »
The DS isn't really that far behind PSP in terms of power.  PSP games look better mainly due to the textures they can put on a UMD.  Plus, the big difference is that most developers are sticking with 2D on the DS.
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Offline Deguello

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RE: The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2005, 06:06:24 PM »
What was the UMD?  1.9 GB?  The media that the DS uses has been reportedly brought up to 1 GB already.  And you know Moore's Law.  Tech advances go up exponentially...
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Offline ThePerm

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RE: The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2005, 06:09:05 PM »
giga-bit
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Offline Deguello

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RE: The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2005, 06:26:06 PM »
It's time you saw the future while you still have human eyes.

... and those eyes see a 3DS system code : 2750-1598-3807

Offline jasonditz

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RE: The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2005, 06:49:01 PM »
See, that's another benefit for using cartridges... you can take advantage of advances in PROM technology without needing a whole new drive system. The DS started out with 128 MB Cards, but by the end of its lifespan it could very easily eclipse the UMD discs, and without the associated problems of optical media (load times, battery life).

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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RE:The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2005, 06:54:00 PM »
can'tr wait to see who is the first to use 1GB of space on the DS and for what.
bringing back FMV to games again?  or will we see movie ads that say "coming soon to DVD, PSP and DS!!"?

64DD games re-born?

Offline KnowsNothing

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RE: The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2005, 06:55:47 PM »
Quote

When Matrix moves to 90nm process technology, it should be possible to manufacture a 8Gb memory chip on a reasonable sized (i.e. cheap) die.

I believe that 8Gb = approximatley 1 GB.  I'm pretty sure that they've already done it too.  The price is really the only issue here.

Edit: Nevermind
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Offline slacker

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RE: The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2005, 07:16:57 PM »
The Rev will not be under powered.  It might have games produced by Nintendo and company that might not push the graphical realism limit that the casual gamer have come to expect.  A lot of Nintendo's game on the GC didn't seem to push the system' graphical limit.  A few examples would be SSB, LoZ:WW, Pikmin, Sunshine, Mario Kart, etc.  Let a casual gamer compare RE4's graphics to any Nintendo made games' graphics and they will think that RE4 is running on a more powerful system even though they are on the the same system.  Casual gamers have come to expect realistic graphics and not cartoony like graphics even though both styles can push these machines to the limit.  I think the Rev will be as powerful as anything else coming out.  Its graphical power might be under utilize by 3rd parties and Nintendo.  Perhaps, it is why Nintendo is de-emphasizing the graphical capabilities.  If they were hyping it up, they need to produce a game that matches the casual gamer's perception of what makes a machine powerful and that might cause way too money to make.  Once you make it, you have to continue to make these types of games because the gamers will not be satisfy with anything else.  Anyways, that's my guess as to why Nintendo isn't hyping their machine's graphical prowess.  I'm curious to see where the industry is headed during this next gen.  

Offline jasonditz

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RE: The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2005, 07:40:10 PM »
Actually WW pushes the Cube pretty hard. Certainly some of the visuals would be totally impossible on a PS2.

Offline slacker

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RE:The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2005, 08:32:04 PM »
I knew the wind waker was using some major graphical power, but will the casual gamer who look at it and then at a game with graphics similar to MGS2 or  RE4 and say its on par in terms of sheer graphical power?   I think not...but that's just me.

Offline Don'tHate742

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RE:The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2005, 10:24:05 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"You can't argue though that innovation is neccesary to next gen titles, can you?"

Nope.  I agree that innovation is necessary.  But how innovation is achieved is what's important.  Nintendo can potentially offer more flexibility for innovation with more powerful hardware than they can with a slightly souped up Gamecube with a gimmicky controller.  Hardware isn't just for graphics.  It allows for more characters on screen at a time and better AI and better physics and larger worlds.  All of those contribute to innovation and to gameplay.  Innovation is not universally good (as you pointed out with the GBA connectivity stuff).  Innovation should expand and improve and built on what already exists, not merely be different.  If they sacrifice hardware performance and use some new controller to make up for it they aren't innovating in the good way.  They're not offering an improvement then, they're just doing something different.

Edit: I thought of something in regards to the "portables don't count" arguement.  The Gameboy may have always been behind but at the time of release it was cutting edge.  Nintendo didn't know that the Game Gear, Lynx, or NGPC were going to come out when they released their other portables.  They DID however know that the PSP was coming out and had a pretty good idea of what to expect.  They intentionally chose to not match the PSP hardware.  With the other portables Nintendo just released whatever and then competitors specfically designed their portables to have better hardware.


True, but what are you arguing about now? Is it that Nintendo needs to not be different, or is it that Nintendo will be reluctant to put in great hardware for graphics?

If its the second, then I had already told you why they won't be reluctant (remember, the whole "dropping the ball" argument).

If its the first, then I'll ask you a question: can they not do be both innovative (in the way you mean it) and different? Nintendo can build on top of the old, make AI and physics more enjoyable, and innovate that way, but why can't they offer at the same time a different way of utilizing this new technology? I understand that it would be terrible if you could only develope games using the "different way" with Nintendo ignoring those who want flexibility, but Reggie already calmed our "what if its a big button" nerves by telling us it'll play every generation thus far.

In conclusion, by looking at the past and using the information that Nintendo has given us, I can say the following things about the REV:

1. It will have a graphical prowness similar to the Xbox 360.

2. It's controller, which may be quirky and "innovative", allows for every type of game to be played.

3. The console may not provide state-of-the-art outputs, nor MP3's or HD movies, but what will be there is top quality.

4. It'll be online with free first party downloadable games.

Nintendo, in my book, has matched the competition on all my points of worry. Graphics, Controller, Online....what else is there to worry about?

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Offline jasonditz

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RE:The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2005, 06:49:19 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: slacker
I knew the wind waker was using some major graphical power, but will the casual gamer who look at it and then at a game with graphics similar to MGS2 or  RE4 and say its on par in terms of sheer graphical power?   I think not...but that's just me.


I don't know what most people look for in graphics, but the PS2 game one of my friends couldn't shut up about is DBZ: Budokai. That is, until I showed him the significantly better cel-shading on the GC version.

Cel-shading might not be everyone's cup of tea, but its visually impressive. The only people I've heard really badmouth it are teenagers that don't want anything that looks like a cartoon because they figure it'll turn them into homosexuals or something.

Offline couchmonkey

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RE:The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2005, 09:00:16 AM »
I have heard more than a few people come to the conclusion that GameCube, or Nintendo as a developer, can't produce good graphics, and I think it comes down to people looking for complexity and realism too.  I'm sure that if you get into certain crowds (anime fans or computer graphics nuts) there will be more respect for techniques like cel-shading, but I think the general public assumes that cel-shading must be way easier to do than realistic 3D graphics because it doesn't look as complex.

That's my opinion, not yours.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2005, 09:24:22 AM »
Ruby:
When you double the resolution, you basically cut the capabilities down to 1/4.

Bull. The only thing that goes up is the fillrate requirement and few games nowadays are fillrate limited. The transformations, lighting, physics, gamelogic, etc. don't increase in complexity. Try looking at ANY graphics cards review, the FPS numbers drop only slightly as the resolution increases. Especially the transformation stuff is nasty, I've heard that you can't do more than perhaps twenty bones per character with current gen consoles.

couchmonkey: Well, Celshading IS easier to do, at least the art assets. It's hard on the coders but damn easy for the artists.

Offline mantidor

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RE: The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2005, 10:43:14 AM »
I disagree. Reading the transcript from the latest NP interview with the art director of TP he is really proud of what they acomplished with the moblins in the Wind Waker, and seeing the game we can see that there was a lot of work put in not inly designing the moblins, but also the animation because this one should not be realistic, but cartoony, and thats a lot more tough to acomplish.
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Offline Shecky

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RE:The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2005, 04:07:32 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
I disagree. Reading the transcript from the latest NP interview with the art director of TP he is really proud of what they acomplished with the moblins in the Wind Waker, and seeing the game we can see that there was a lot of work put in not inly designing the moblins, but also the animation because this one should not be realistic, but cartoony, and thats a lot more tough to acomplish.


The enemies in WW were fantastic... I kind of wish that the humanoids (including Link) had more detail though... their clothing was all a bit too .... "flat"

The moblins really were a work of art though.

Offline couchmonkey

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RE: The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2005, 01:28:02 PM »
KDR_11:  I didn't mean to refer to artists, I was referring to the horsepower needed to push the graphics.  I think people look at cel-shaded games and games with cartoony graphic styles and assume that the system is not very powerful (or is not using much of it's power) to render those graphics.  As far as I know, that's not true (yet).

As far as development goes, I imagine you're right about making things easier for artists.
That's my opinion, not yours.
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Offline jasonditz

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RE: The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2005, 03:37:11 PM »
I guess it depends on the subject matter, but I've seen a lot of people who were very impressed with cel-shading, particularly in games using anime licenses. There's something to be said for making a game "look like the TV show", as opposed to trying to translate them to 3D characters.

The DBZ fan who sits down and plays Budokai sees something a lot more authentic looking than, eg. those Simpsons 3D games.

Interesting case study: when I was at a Walmart a couple years back I recall the Ps2 demo system sitting there with the visually very realistic GT4 completely ignored while a bunch of kids were lined up around the Gamecube commenting how "cool" the Ultimate Muscle game looked.

Offline Stimutacs Addict

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RE: The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2005, 01:27:55 PM »
seee..  if those 3d rumors are true then we can expect some wicked 3d cartoon-looking games
I'll shut up now...

Offline Deguello

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RE: The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2005, 06:18:50 AM »
Wait a second....

Quote

"This time, ours [the PS3] will be like a BMW that's equipped with a Ferrari engine. Nintendo's [Revolution] will be something like a new model of a family car. Some people might want it, but if it was me, I'd want to advance to the next level."


This really is a piss poor analogy is YET ANOTHER way.  BMW and Ferrari are not the market leaders.  Ford is (I think, or GM).  BMW and Ferrari are... NICHE, in the auto market.
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Offline jasonditz

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RE: The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2005, 06:59:11 AM »
Good point... but maybe his analogy isn't so poor. From what I've heard the PS3 is probably going to launch at $400 minimum. It could well be the Ferrari most people want, but like a Ferrari, it could be out of their price range.


Offline Sir_Stabbalot

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RE:The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2005, 08:25:07 AM »
It seems that when Nintendo makes a portable, they try to strike a balance between power and battery life.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: The presidents in a war of words.
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2005, 08:39:56 AM »
BMW isn't niche where I live.