Author Topic: Too Human Trilogy: Exclusive for 360 (Read 114034 times)

PaLaDiN · « **Reply #75 on:** October 27, 2005, 07:11:39 PM »

nemo, the quote isn't about Nintendo's games, it's about Silicon Knights' games. Why would Denis care about Nintendo making micro games? That's not a new trend at Nintendo, and they've always balanced it out with epic games like Zelda and Metroid.

No, the issue is that Nintendo wasn't willing to fund a trilogy of epic games from a developer which has historically seen horrible sales, even with big franchises like Metal Gear Solid.

When somebody starts the whole "they wanted, we wanted" song and dance, it means "they didn't let us do what we wanted".

ThePerm · « **Reply #76 on:** October 28, 2005, 05:35:00 AM »

also, maybe he was just not getting enough info...being i n the dark when your supposed to be a team is pretty bad. Anotyher thing isnt it epic who made the unreal engine..it doesnt seem like their too keen on nintendo at all. It seems Denis Dyack isn't tryng to burn bridges. Maybe he is just deadset on making his game.

Artimus · « **Reply #77 on:** October 28, 2005, 07:05:12 AM »

Probably Nintendo wanted the game but didn't want to pay for its development (hard to blame them considering the sales...). So they went to MS.

vudu · « **Reply #78 on:** October 28, 2005, 09:37:56 AM »

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Who else would know better than Dennis?

Shiggy!!

BigJim · « **Reply #79 on:** October 28, 2005, 10:35:22 AM »

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Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
Why would Denis care about Nintendo making micro games? That's not a new trend at Nintendo, and they've always balanced it out with epic games like Zelda and Metroid.

This is subjective, but as someone whose last bought game was StarFox Assault and the next being Zelda (over a year later), I don't find the balance of epics to be very... well, balanced. That's the recipe for dust collection.

PaLaDiN · « **Reply #80 on:** October 28, 2005, 10:55:44 AM »

You know, what you said would be more convincing if you hadn't said it a week after Fire Emblem came out. That's the recipe for losing an argument before it starts.

Artimus · « **Reply #81 on:** October 28, 2005, 12:15:30 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim
Quote
Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
Why would Denis care about Nintendo making micro games? That's not a new trend at Nintendo, and they've always balanced it out with epic games like Zelda and Metroid.

This is subjective, but as someone whose last bought game was StarFox Assault and the next being Zelda (over a year later), I don't find the balance of epics to be very... well, balanced. That's the recipe for dust collection.

But there is hardly some great abundance of other games that make your point valid...

NinGurl69 *huggles · « **Reply #82 on:** October 28, 2005, 12:41:26 PM »

People should be playing FE and BUTTALION WORS.

BigJim · « **Reply #83 on:** October 28, 2005, 05:02:43 PM »

Assuming I was interested in FE, that would cut the year + into about 7+ months. 2 games in a year's span. I guess I sure was put in my place, or something.

Artimus · « **Reply #84 on:** October 28, 2005, 05:32:55 PM »

The main problem with Nintendo's 3rd party situation is people expect them to fill every second with games. For a single studio their size they produce a LOT of games, and a surprising quality of them too. It's impossible for one company to make enough games to support awhole system. Unfortunately that's almost what they have to do.

PaLaDiN · « **Reply #85 on:** October 28, 2005, 07:21:52 PM »

"I guess I sure was put in my place, or something."

You wanna name another developer that comes out with 2 good epic games in a year's span?

Or list the microgames they've come out with for the GC this year?

Is your argument actually against Nintendo or are you just whining about games taking a long time to make?

BigJim · « **Reply #86 on:** October 29, 2005, 05:42:54 AM »

The argument was about the "balance" of mini games to epics. Epic fans would have reason not to be satisfied with GameCube anymore. Epic fans might also legitimately have concern about Revolution if Denis is even slightly correct in Nintendo's future direction.

As Artimus mentioned, it's not easy for one company to carry the load, but sadly Nintendo does. They get credit for the volume they do, but the gaps are still there regardless. They better hope the goodwill that developers give Revolution won't turn into all mini projects.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #87 on:** October 29, 2005, 11:16:03 PM »

Does it matter for the user whether Nintendo is overworked or not? What I see is that there are no (interesting) new games coming out for the Gamecube lately. Doesn't matter who makes them as long as they keep coming. And they stopped coming.

PaLaDiN · « **Reply #88 on:** October 29, 2005, 11:30:22 PM »

BigJim: So your problem is third party support, not Nintendo's balance of epic vs microgames, which was the actual original argument. I should know, I'm the person you quoted when you started this: my argument is that Nintendo as a game developer has always had a good balance between epic and microgames, and the objection you had to that claim was shut down by the fact that Fire Emblem just came out.

Moving on... yes, Nintendo should have more third party support to complement their own games so we have more epic games to choose from. It would be nice. Looks like they're fixing that up somewhat though, if the DS is any indication.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #89 on:** October 30, 2005, 04:27:01 AM »

I don't think the DS is an indication, it's just a continuation of the support they had for the GBA. Doesn't seem like that'll carry over to their home console business, though.

BigJim · « **Reply #90 on:** October 30, 2005, 05:07:03 AM »

3rd parties wasn't necessarily my point. There are more microgames to epics, which doesn't look like a balance to me (even looking strictly at Nintendo). As already mentioned, one game doesn't mean the giant gaps don't exist. Compared to the number of microgames released or being released this year and next, it's apparent that epic fans are collecting more dust on their GameCubes than not.

Artimus · « **Reply #91 on:** October 30, 2005, 06:30:34 AM »

What MicroGames are there for the GameCube right now? Or next year.

PaLaDiN · « **Reply #92 on:** October 30, 2005, 09:30:01 AM »

"I don't think the DS is an indication, it's just a continuation of the support they had for the GBA. Doesn't seem like that'll carry over to their home console business, though."

I guess we'll see when the Revolution has been out for a while. The parallel I see is that both DS and Revolution try to buck the trend compared to other more powerful and traditional consoles. Traditional GBA support could just as easily have continued on the PSP instead, without going through all that dual/touch screen hassle. In fact the PSP is much more a GBA 2 than the DS is... only difference is that it isn't made by Nintendo, which may or may not have been a deciding factor for third party support.

"There are more microgames to epics, which doesn't look like a balance to me (even looking strictly at Nintendo)."
Okay, I'm not getting this at all. Let's look strictly at Nintendo. I can't think of any Nintendo Cube microgames that came out recently. I'm trying to recall what Nintendo's done the past few months... SFA, Geist, Battalion Wars, Fire Emblem and DDR Mario are the only games that come to mind. Surely DDR Mario doesn't outbalance the others?
And looking at the future, only big Nintendo Cube game coming out is Zelda, presumably because they're focusing on the Revolution now. And Mario Strikers, but that's a sports game. Maybe Mario Party 7?
I don't see the balance issue. Seems to me your problem is with quantity, not balance. Nintendo can't produce quantity all by themselves, hence your problem is strictly third party.

vudu · « **Reply #93 on:** October 31, 2005, 08:11:21 AM »

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You wanna name another developer that comes out with 2 good epic games in a year's span?

Not to be a dick, but didn't BioWare come out with a bunch of "good epic games" in a year's span? The two KOTOR games and Jade Empire all came out within two years. By definition, two of those games had to have come out in the same year.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #94 on:** October 31, 2005, 08:33:48 AM »

vudu: I think BioWare outsourced some of them.

Hostile Creation · « **Reply #95 on:** October 31, 2005, 09:14:07 AM »

BigJim, you cannot honestly justify saying that one epic game = one micro game (if that's what you want to call them). In most cases, games like Mario Party or Metroid Pinball probably don't take as much time or money to develop as games like Zelda or whatever Silicon Knights had in mind. It's ridiculous to suggest that Nintendo should have as many 50 hour quests as it does ten hour high score/quickie games. One epic game is probably equivalent to three smaller games, if not more. One just requires many more resources. A balance is not equality, it's a reasonable ratio.

Also, vudu: KOTOR sucked all kinds of ass. One of the most boring games I've ever played.

vudu · « **Reply #96 on:** October 31, 2005, 09:43:20 AM »

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Also, vudu: KOTOR sucked all kinds of ass. One of the most boring games I've ever played.

I've never played either of them, so I couldn't say one way or another, but apparently a lot of people out there disagree with you.

GameRankings.com - KOTOR - Xbox - Avg Ratio: 95%
GameRankings.com - KOTOR 2 - Xbox - Avg Ratio: 86%

PaLaDiN · « **Reply #97 on:** October 31, 2005, 09:54:29 AM »

"The two KOTOR games and Jade Empire all came out within two years. By definition, two of those games had to have come out in the same year."

Actually, KOTOR 2 was the same game as KOTOR 1. I've played and finished them both. Try again.

Kairon · « **Reply #98 on:** October 31, 2005, 10:15:00 AM »

Guys, he wasn't really talking about microgames vs. epic games. Dennis Dyack was talking about gameplay-based titles (i.e. Nintendo style releases that rely almost exclusively on gameplay) instead of cinematic titles (Squaresoft type games that have a larger percentage of their appeal as cinematic storytelling).

This is all about the fact that Silicon Knights made a moderately clunky and un-Nintendo gameplay system for Eternal Darkness, which succeeded based on its ambiance, voice acting and cinematic style. Nintendo has never really been comfortable with the "style" over "substance" style of making games, which is the same reason they dumped Rare and Factor 5. Don't forget, Rare was more about pushing technology (Perfect Dark's ambitious graphics on the N64 resulting in framerate issues and Conker's humor-centric gameplay instead of a Mario-esque romp) and Factor 5 was ultimately revealed to have glaring game design weaknesses (the how-can-something-so-pretty-play-so-poorly Factor 5 debacle that was Rogue Squadron 3).

While Eternal Darkness was well received, it was nothing more than another Rogue Leader or Goldeneye. Nintendo parted ways with Silicon Knights because they suspect that SK' next game will be either a Kameo (a 5+ year project that pretty much has to be the next Mario 64 to justify its existence) or the next Rogue Leader 3 (Only Nintendo published game I regret purchasing. And that's saying something.)

That's not to say that the next SK game won't be good. It probably will be warmly received and given a few soundbites... but I highly suspect that the X360 fanboys who buy Too Human will be silently thinking "I hope the other fanboys don't find out how disappointed I am with this hyped game."

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

BigJim · « **Reply #99 on:** November 01, 2005, 06:31:20 AM »

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Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
It's ridiculous to suggest that Nintendo should have as many 50 hour quests as it does ten hour high score/quickie games. One epic game is probably equivalent to three smaller games, if not more. One just requires many more resources. A balance is not equality, it's a reasonable ratio.

I wasn't really saying what Nintendo should or shouldn't do. I was saying what I believe *is*. My real point is that there are big gaps between the high quality epic launches, which can leave a lot of those particular gamers unsatisfied, compared to the fairly regular release schedule of the inexpensive/quick fix titles at this point. On further thought, I agree with paladin that it is a 3rd party issue, at least in part. I think it's a Nintendo AND 3rd party issue. There was ample room for improvement in the release schedule this year. Next year isn't shaping up much better yet. My point was that simple.

I did kick off the discussion with, "This is subjective, but..." afterall.

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Author Topic: Too Human Trilogy: Exclusive for 360 (Read 114034 times)