Topic: LOZ: 2005

[LuigiHann]

TP didn't beat OoT, but it was a worthy sequel. Not much need to go into more detail.  

[Mashiro]

As a person who loves Zelda but actually disliked OoT (yes I disliked it . . . sorry it wasn't as great as I thought everyone said it was), I liked TP better.

I think the STORY to OoT was more well conceived than TP but OoT's biggest issue was its gameplay. While it was ground breaking and revolutionary and original (lock on targeting and such), I just felt it wasn't perfected enough and I found myself not really getting "pulled in" to the OoT experience.

I am one of the few people out there who will probably openly admit to not really enjoying OoT (cept for the ending, the whole Gannon fight was awesome). I think Wind Waker and TP are better than OoT simply for the fact that I got into those games more, but that's just one persons perspective on it.

To this day, though, no Zelda game is greater than ALttP in my eyes. Still all around the best Zelda game I've played.  

[Gamebasher]

Epic is described in my little online dictionary in this way: an epic is a long poem, movie or story describing the deeds of heroic or legendary figures or the past history of a nation OR a task of epic proportions.

So when I played OOT, what was it specifically that made it so great? Epic? What goes into making a game so great that it really feels so good to play, to look at, to listen to? Answer: elements of many kinds that when put together into a seemless creation makes it "epic". It sure helped that it was the first 3D Zelda. But still, the game was an industry milestone.

Nintendo has the tendency to focus on different elements of a specific nature, when attempting to renew the Zelda or Mario franchises. With TLP it seems to have been with less focus on the story, and the bosses, which is a shame. Because any quest in any game revolves around a story. And: the story needs to be good in order to make the gamer feel actively involved. Feel it is worth it to go to extra lengths to progress through the game. Now comes the essence of my point: many psychological elements are involved in the process that determine if a game is so coveted by gamers, that it is a must for them to play it. Here is a little listing of crucial elements to a good game as I have learned them over the years:

STORY/quest. This is paramount, as it alone will carry the very reason why one should play the game: to be part of some conflict, some battle, some quest, a F1 race, a sports event etc. Sub-element of a games story is the quest itself. What you have to do, and as importantly, how you are asked to do it by the games developers.

GAMEPLAY. That has to be doable in terms of how the controls work. That gamepad is our extended limbs in that cyber universe, so it has to deliver, or frustration sets in and we drop playing sooner or later. On top of that the camera, as an integral part of the gameplay mechanics, has to be in order as well, so you don´t have things in the way of the view so you can´t see where you´re going or what you´re doing in there. No accidental deaths accepted here.

MUSIC. This is also of great importance, allthough less with sports games in my view. The music in a game can excite you, soothe you, enchant you, uplift you and remove stress from daily life sucking you into that alternate dimension making you feel good while you are there.

GRAPHICS. They have to be good to look at, not jagged, blurry or ugly. Beautifull to behold for the gamer who must progress through that world which is made up of it (graphics).
These four elements are the primary elements that goes into a good game. They are the ones that make a game good or bad.

But there is one fifth element which I should mention too. The current public trend. What games do people like to play? What are they playing now? What games did they hate, which ones did they love? What are their expectations right now? What will they expect in the future? You can make a game so good, and maybe people wont play it! Maybe it will be overlooked. So if you want to get a hit on your hands, you have to know many things about what people like and expect. Nintendo knows all of this. Always have.

Now, back to OOT and why I think it was the best ever, better than TLP, and not merely because it was the first 3D Zelda.

When I played OOT, I had previously played Super Mario 64. I had never played any of the 2D Mario games. I had loved MArio 64, for it´s awesome 3D world which even though being small in size, overall was so chokefull of fun that it could be played through over and over 20 times. Zelda was this strange game about a peculiar looking character with pointy ears in a green tunic. When I first picked it up, it was because I wanted to have more of the gaming fun from the Mario 64 game. And boy did it deliver. It was as if Nintendo had magically transferred all of the fun from Mario 64, into an awesome adventure, where you had to save a land called Hyrule, and a sweet little Princess called Zelda. I was instantly hooked. The sights and sounds of that world was awesome. When I got to the Temple of Time, I thought I was in heaven. The monk choir was awesome. Sheik´s sudden apperances. The Ocarina melodies. And so was the whole rest of that game. A clever combination of many elements, expertly put together.

And that is basically why I didn´t like TLP. To me, that game has only two great elements: GAMEPLAY and GRAPHICS.

See now what I mean? The two other crucial elements - STORY/quest and MUSIC are so poor in comparison to what they were in OOT, that they simply pull the games overall value down several points in any score I would have given that game. Hate me for it, but I tell you that since OOT got 10 out of 10, TLP deserves no more than 8.5 And I do think that the reviewers should be carefull how they score games. I think they were too nice on TLP. So 8.5. No more, no less. Afterall, Nintendo has tried to listen to many requests in the making of that game (the request for a darker, realistic art style in particular).

I will add that I read in the news that Koji Kondo, who created the music for OOT, was not in charge of the music in TLP. Only his team was. And on top of that it wasn´t Shigeru Miyamoto either who directed TLP. It was Eiji Aonuma. Miyamoto was the producer only. Clues that made me understand that this time around, as with WW, it wasn´t the masters from OOT at work.

So they forgot to work on said two elements. And it shows all the way through the game. I think many Japanese gamers agree with me on this, as the game, according to news I read, didn´t perform very well in Japan. A sure sign of dissapointment with the established fanbase there.

Once you mess up on the STORY/quest and MUSIC elements, it doesn´t matter what you try to tag on to make up for it. Wii controls or not. The MUSIC in TLP is MIDI, not orchestrated, as it was in OOT. The quest (sub-element of STORY) is downright boring. It is stretched somehow. Stretched out over too little actual content. Had they worked on furthering the STORY/quest, to make them more dense, more rich in content, and created a fully orchestrated background MUSIC, it would have made it an instant 10 out of 10. TLP is a 50% OOT, that could have been an 150% OOT had they worked more on the STORY/quest and MUSIC.

This is my verdict on how Nintendo did in their attempt to make TLP better than OOT. They specifically stated they wanted to do so, yet only succeeded half the way.

OOT was a milestone. Nintendo have work to do, if they want to surpass OOT in gaming excellence.

 

[Mashiro]

Wow...that post above me is EPIC in size holy mother of god. . .  

Edit: Also I'm not sure where you get your information from but the music in OoT was not orchestrated . . . it was midi formated as well. The people behind the music in TP (Koji Konodo actually said the following I think) that they wished to do an Orchestrated sound track for TP. However, the game itself called for musical cues to come from actions based on screen (example: when fighting enemies and you hit them a musical change occurs), and that isn't possible with non-midi music.

[Adrock]

Quote
To this day, though, no Zelda game is greater than ALttP in my eyes. Still all around the best Zelda game I've played.

Tha's the true sh*t.

I thought Ocarina of Time was overrated though I still greatly enjoyed the game. The plots of both OoT and TP were weak and generally uninspired (How can we fit 2 worlds in another game? Hmm...). Ocarina of Time's story was the worst between the 2, but less annoying to get through due to shorter cutscenes.

Twilight Princess was a better overall game. The later dungeons were almost boring and the lack of plot during that part of the game made me wonder why I was bothering. Also, Zant was a tool.

[Athrun Zala]

Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Wow.  Here is the real question can any 3D Zelda be better than OoT?

Yes, and it's called Majora's Mask

[Kairon]

I think the faults of TP, unlike OoT, are much more evident, such as the near-complete evaporation of the strong narrative experience it was presenting through the first half of the game.

More and more, I'm believing that Zelda games without Miyamoto's personal attention will feel incomplete in some manner, and lacking some indescribable essential integration of all their components.

[Gamebasher]

Strong narrative experience? Indeed! I agree 100%. That was the magical words, that can also be used to describe OOT´s genious. And I do hope that Miyamoto will make efforts to teach his apparentices good and proper how to make a game as good as OOT. Kairon, you never cease to amaze me with your insight, and clarity of mind. You really see this the way it is. For that is the reason why they failed at TLP. The lack of the narrative experience. That is also part of the whole STORY/quest-element, by the way. I think Miyamoto is of a kind that may nolonger be. People are perhaps too lazy these days to work hard enough to make a game as great as OOT.    

[Mashiro]

Quote
Originally posted by: Gamebasher
People are perhaps too lazy these days to work hard enough to make a game as great as OOT.

I don't really believe that, and it is kind of unfair to say. I think in a lot of areas Wind Waker (for example) were better than OoT. It had a great backstory (relating it to a previous Link which hasn't been done before), great character (I found myself more interested in the various races in WW than in OoT), a better all around supporting cast, and not to mention the re-powering up of the master sword (<3 master sword, boo big goron sword).

Though it had it's short comings which made it not "as good" as OoT (triforce search, one too few dungeons, etc) but that isn't to say the development team was nessasarily 'lazy', I'd say it falls along the lines of time constraints getting in the way of adding more to an already great game.

[ShyGuy]

Quote
Originally posted by: Forum Goers
Blah Blah Words.

About 24 hours in so far, I like it. I like it a lot. Better than Oot? Maybe. In the same way that Super Mario Bros 3 was better than Super Mario Bros. SMB was near perfection but SMB3 just offered more.

[LuigiHann]

You know what I think would make TP better? If the 3 "extra dungeons" between the Gerudo Desert place and the endgame levels were cut out from the story, and left as "bonus dungeons." I think that'd improve the pacing of the game a ton, since it was those 3 dungeons that basically happened without any real storyline.  

[mantidor]

I have to confess I often skim through Gamebasher posts because they are TOO wordy, I'm honestly sorry and I will try to not do it. However saying things like this force me to give you BAD points:

"Once you mess up on the STORY/quest and MUSIC elements, it doesn´t matter what you try to tag on to make up for it. Wii controls or not. The MUSIC in TLP is MIDI, not orchestrated, as it was in OOT."

No, no, no, Zelda has NEVER seen orchestrated music, is a shame, it was partially excusable in OoT, MM and the WW since the music was dynamic. TP was a step back in that area after the wonderful use of dynamic music along with the sword slashes in tWW, as wonderful as it was, it was still very basic and should have been expanded in TP. Here I think their promise of orchestrated music was the problem, they left out the dinamic music expecting orchestrated and ended up with neither, TP dinamic music is barely on par with OoT.

I'm not to knowledgable about it but I think its very possible to finally have orchestated/instrumental music that is also dinamic these days, and I  hope a future game uses it.

As for the rest I have some comments as well

"I will add that I read in the news that Koji Kondo, who created the music for OOT, was not in charge of the music in TLP. Only his team was. And on top of that it wasn´t Shigeru Miyamoto either who directed TLP. It was Eiji Aonuma. Miyamoto was the producer only. Clues that made me understand that this time around, as with WW, it wasn´t the masters from OOT at work."

Yet Nintendo said every chance they got how involved Miyamoto was, he even said he has never been this involved in a game he wasn't directing. We will really never know, its even possible all that talk was just marketing for the game since Miyamoto's name is huge, however I doubt his influence was small, and even if it was that can only be a good thing, I'm sure he has taught a lot to Nintendo's other developers and they are perfectly capable of taking that and making it move forward, Miyamoto, as great as he is, is not perfect, and his views are limited, like for instance the forest-water-fire-shadow cliche that even Metroid Prime saw as an influence. Nintendo is ready to move on, and we the fans should let them, it should not be requirement that Miyamoyo directs or even supervises the next Mario, zelda or Metroid.

Also, dont forget Aonuma was also involved in OoT, the masters of that game were at work in all they other sequels, I have no doubt about it.

"So they forgot to work on said two elements. And it shows all the way through the game. I think many Japanese gamers agree with me on this, as the game, according to news I read, didn´t perform very well in Japan. A sure sign of dissapointment with the established fanbase there."

I think tWW didn't do as well over there either, the problem isn't TP, is the franchise in general, I don't care, it just shows the awful japanese taste in games .

...

The problem with TP is simple, they had in mind to make a game for western fans after all the issues in the gaming community with the previous 3D zelda games, and that will never produce a game that has as much impact as OoT had, the have to THROW things out of the window to make that happen. Another lesson in "be careful what you wish for", because Zelda fanboys got what they asked, TP is the perfect OoT^2, but is just that.

Of course ( and I'm sure you knew this was coming ) splitting development for two different control methods didn't help.

Also, I approve all this Majora's Mask love Let Aonuma alone and we will have an AWESOME new wii Zelda game, just look at Phantom Hourglass.


EDIT

see? I read Gamebasher posts and I end up ignoring the others  , I just read Mashiro's mention of midi music. I still doubt very much TP had the dinamic cues of tWW, if they put them in, they did a crappy job because I didn't notice them at all as opposed to tWW, I'm going to check the game again.

[Mashiro]

I have one big gripe with Twilight Princess, and that is Links relation to his supporting cast.

In Wind Waker, the one thing I loved about it leaps and bounds over OoT, is that Link actually makes bonds with the characters he meets. The dragon he helps for example, comes back with the pirates and such to help assault Gannon's fortress. The boat is the King of Hyrule and the bond between Link and him is displayed beautifully at the end of the game in a very sad and tender moment.

Just to name a few examples.

In TP I was left wondering "Why should I care about these characters?". Outside of Midna, no other character really 'connected' with Link as they did in Wind Waker.

Which is a shame because Link conveyed emotion in TP better than any previous Zelda game.

If there is one thing I want to see in the next Zelda game for Wii (outside of full motion controls for the sword) is a really heavy emphasis on character relations with our main character. Make us fall in love with the characters, make us CARE if such and such girl gets taken away, and here's a shocker, maybe even kill someone off. Make Links journey as a hero filled with ups and downs.

Hell look at Final Fantasy VII, probably one of the most memorable scenes in video game history is Aeries death. Character relationships with one another when done correctly make us feel for those characters, make us connect to them and when one is taken away as in FFVII, it can be very sad. It adds so much more to the game and truly lets it become an epic adventure.

That's another reason why I feel ALttP is the overall best Zelda game. Links uncle is KILLED while going to save princess Zelda. Sure we didn't know him all that much and it happened right in the beginning of the game but it was something. It was a reason for Link to go off and go on the journey. The 'relations' in ALttP (while not all that deep) made for a great ending as well as Link demonstrates how using the power of the Triforce for good could set all the things wrong with Hyrule right. He helps all those who somewhat helped him on his way and was truly a fantastic ending to an epic adventure.

Bring back good character relationships in the Zelda series Nintendo and it will help to make your already great Zelda games all the more epic.

[Mashiro]

Edit: I'll tun this double post into a response.

No worries Mantidor I am often over looked

Thinking back on it I may be wrong with the battle cues, it's been a while since I played TP. I think I made an error.

It may have been that the musical CHANGES that occur during the gameplay could not have been done with traditional orchestrated music and such midi style music was used.

Example: While riding through Hyrule field the over world theme plays. Now an enemy bird approaches behind you. The music begins to shift into a darker theme and an enemy theme begins to overlay the pre-existing track.

I think that was a primary reason for not having a full orchestrated track. Though also thinking back on that scenario I do remember hitting the birds and I could remember the music having added "beats" for the attacks done on the bird. Not as prevalent as in WW but I thought they were there. . .

I'll test this out as soon as I can free up the TV my Wii is connected to =).  
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Update: Yeah I guess they aren't there. My mistake.

So I guess the "reasoning" behind lack of orchestrated music was for those musical shifts at certain points . . . I guess. I'll try to find a source on that.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Update: Well I stand corrected. I was wrong as to the "why there is no orchestrated music in TP" so I apologize for my misgiving of information. In an interview with Koji Kondo on IGN we get the real answer:

Quote
IGN: Many fans were expecting the Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess to support a fully-orchestrated score. When we talked with Aonuma just a few minutes ago he mentioned that the lack of orchestration was something that you were deeply let down by. Was it limited by a budget or time constraint, or was it something Nintendo wasn't interested in?

Kondo: As far as Twilight Princess goes, of course those decisions took place. In the end it was not about the time or budget; we had the time and the budget, and it wasn't a Nintendo philosophical stance that "we're not going to do this". Basically while we were working on the game and creating the music, we never really felt that this was a place that needed a full orchestra. We never got the feeling that "Oh this would be a place that could make more of an impact with a full orchestra". We just didn't see the need for it this time.

If you power the game up and let it sit there's a fully-orchestrated piece there, so we aren't against doing it, no.

There you have it. Real shame. Maybe in the next game there will be a full orchestrated sound track.

[mantidor]

Thats a really odd reason. and by odd I mean complete bullsh!t

The change in the music isn't there as you said, and its actually of less quality than even OoT, in the N64 game for instance the overworld theme didn't drastically change when an enemy aproach, it became faster and more menacing but with the same rythm, the transition was smooth. However in TP it simply fades out the overworld theme and fades in the enemy theme, disappointing.

[Chasefox]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mashiro
As a person who loves Zelda but actually disliked OoT (yes I disliked it . . . sorry it wasn't as great as I thought everyone said it was), I liked TP better.

I think the STORY to OoT was more well conceived than TP but OoT's biggest issue was its gameplay. While it was ground breaking and revolutionary and original (lock on targeting and such), I just felt it wasn't perfected enough and I found myself not really getting "pulled in" to the OoT experience.

I am one of the few people out there who will probably openly admit to not really enjoying OoT (cept for the ending, the whole Gannon fight was awesome). I think Wind Waker and TP are better than OoT simply for the fact that I got into those games more, but that's just one persons perspective on it.

To this day, though, no Zelda game is greater than ALttP in my eyes. Still all around the best Zelda game I've played.

Here Here, to ALttP!!!      Favorite game ever since I was a child...OoT was great for me though, and Wind Waker great also...but nothing beats the art design for me of TP...the levels were just gorgeous to me...especially the first time those Iron Boots came into play...just my two cents...

[ShyGuy]

If you read the Interviews Iwata did with Miyamoto and Aonuma, you can tell Shiggy was fairly involved. Go read them, they are fascinating:



Iwata asks: Miyamoto Aonuma Part 1
Iwata asks: Miyamoto Aonuma Part 2
Iwata asks: Miyamoto Aonuma Part 3
Iwata asks: Miyamoto Aonuma Part 4
Iwata asks: Miyamoto Aonuma Part 5

[Kairon]

He was fairly involved, but in my opinion, not enough. He was always at a distance and would always be nudging the team gently to fix this, or fix that, in a continuing process that, if it had gone on longer, would probably have resulted in a more cohesive game. Sure, Miyamoto continually helped them... but the interviews suggest that he rarely, if ever, got his hands dirty.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
He was fairly involved, but in my opinion, not enough. He was always at a distance and would always be nudging the team gently to fix this, or fix that, in a continuing process that, if it had gone on longer, would probably have resulted in a more cohesive game. Sure, Miyamoto continually helped them... but the interviews suggest that he rarely, if ever, got his hands dirty.

Don't mind Kairon he hates Aonuma and will NEVER like him. You know I'm right.

[Kairon]

I know she's right.

[Gamebasher]

Mantidor wrote:

"I have to confess I often skim through Gamebasher posts because they are TOO wordy, I'm honestly sorry and I will try to not do it. However saying things like this force me to give you BAD points:"

Too wordy? I am merely using a lot of words needed for me to express the perceived faults with TLP. It´s no walk in the park to dissect the pros and cons of a game.

"No, no, no, Zelda has NEVER seen orchestrated music, is a shame, it was partially excusable in OoT, MM and the WW since the music was dynamic. TP was a step back in that area after the wonderful use of dynamic music along with the sword slashes in tWW, as wonderful as it was, it was still very basic and should have been expanded in TP. Here I think their promise of orchestrated music was the problem, they left out the dinamic music expecting orchestrated and ended up with neither, TP dinamic music is barely on par with OoT."

Agree. The OOT music was the best, most lovingly beautifull soundtrack I have ever heard. The reason why I wrote that it was orchestrated was because there was a record with that same music done by an orchestra which once could be ordered on the internet. So I naturally assumed that that music was the same as in the game. In other words - orchestrated. But they apparently created that orchestrated version after the game itself, in a separate event. And yes, I do hope too they will be able to create a fully orchestrated soundtrack in the next Zelda Wii game.

,
"Also, dont forget Aonuma was also involved in OoT, the masters of that game were at work in all they other sequels, I have no doubt about it."

Aonuma was not the master behind OOT, Miyamoto was. Aonuma was an apprentice who worked WITH Miyamoto. There is a difference.

"I think tWW didn't do as well over there either, the problem isn't TP, is the franchise in general, I don't care, it just shows the awful japanese taste in games ."

Mantidor, you should not forget that Japan is Nintendo´s hometerritory. So I don´t think it wise to call their taste awefull! They know it when a game is great, and when not. And I don´t think I am off the mark if I say that it would have been them first of all in the worlds population of gamers who helped Nintendo and Miyamoto to precisely determine which way Zelda games should be, to be successfull, before that game series ever came over here. It started there, and came over here. So that would give them a lot more to say than you´re implying in your post.

"The problem with TP is simple, they had in mind to make a game for western fans after all the issues in the gaming community with the previous 3D zelda games, and that will never produce a game that has as much impact as OoT had, the have to THROW things out of the window to make that happen. Another lesson in "be careful what you wish for", because Zelda fanboys got what they asked, TP is the perfect OoT^2, but is just that.

Of course ( and I'm sure you knew this was coming  ) splitting development for two different control methods didn't help."

Mantidor, I didn´t quite understand what you meant here? You mean we shoud be carefull what we wish for, as Nintendo´s developement team is already tired of hearing complaints of this nature and that nature? If so, that is something I can certainly understand.

"Also, I approve all this Majora's Mask love  Let Aonuma alone and we will have an AWESOME new wii Zelda game, just look at Phantom Hourglass."

You know what? I think Nintendo should look back at what made OOT so popular, and why it sold as much as it did. And only do that, never again listening to all of that talk coming from us. It would make them crazy, if they let us split them into two camps of for or against various ways of game implementations for Zelda. So far, I don´t think that TLP has sold as much as OOT. But it might.

Mashiro, wrote:

"If there is one thing I want to see in the next Zelda game for Wii (outside of full motion controls for the sword) is a really heavy emphasis on character relations with our main character. Make us fall in love with the characters, make us CARE if such and such girl gets taken away, and here's a shocker, maybe even kill someone off. Make Links journey as a hero filled with ups and downs."

I agree. THAT is one of the main reasons why I love OOT above all other Zelda games ever made. Saria in the woods for instance. Remember the cutscene where she gives the Ocarina to Link, on the bridge? Remember the WAY the sound was made, how Link´s footsteps echoed into the woods beneath the bridge, the look in Saria´s eyes before they parted. I had tears in my eyes then. And then came Hyrule field, where another great friend connected with Link - the Great Owl (I forgot his name) - and followed him throughout the adventure. So, yes I totally agree in that, but wouldn´t want to see Link kill any of his friends. That would take the whole beauty of the story away.


 

[Mashiro]

Well I didn't want LINK to kill one of his friends, just have someone important to the story killed off. That element of "the heros suffering" just builds character and adds layers to the hero.

Sadly, as much as you loved many moments in OoT I found myself not nearly as engaged.

I know I'm an extremely rare person who wasn't all that "wowed" by OoT. Though I attribute this to being SO hyped up about the game that (at the time I was probably the most nerdy Nintendo fanboy around) it could never live up to my expectations. It didn't and I think it's what ruined my OoT experience. Since then I have tried to never be too hyped about any particular thing or else I risk that same let down feeling.

[Sarail]

I just finished Twilight Princess for the first time a week ago, and now that I've had time to reflect on my experience with the game... here's what I think about this whole ordeal of which is better (OoT or TP), that you guys are creating.

First off, let me say that Majora's Mask was my favorite Zelda game of all time with A Link to the Past as my second favorite.  Majora's Mask has had THE best storyline of any Zelda game to date, and it's characters were brought to life (finally) because of a particular Dan Owsen not doing the translation that time around as he did for the travesty that was Ocarina of Time's characters... ugh.

Twilight Princess is now my favorite Zelda game of all time.  The reason being that the game is extremely epic in scope alone.  The vast worlds, incredible music, lovable (and hateful) characters, and much MUCH deeper gameplay are all of the reasons for its epic scope.  True, there were a couple of dungeons that seemed a bit rushed (the Temple of Time being one -- which originally was supposed to be in Ocarina of Time).  But the puzzles involved in each dungeon this time around were all a bit more complex when compared to puzzles in Ocarina of Time.  Now, I still fully believe Majora's Mask has the best puzzle dungeons, but Twilight Princess is a VERY close second.  And finally, the game just oozes with depth -- whether it be the transformation ability that Link has to play with TWO different styles of attacking (wolf and human forms) or even the skill sets that Link has the ability to learn -- all are amazing additions to the 3D Zelda formula.  And in my opinion... having a great storyline, wonderful characters and interaction, complex dungeons puzzles, amazing graphical upgrade (over OoT anyway), very inspired level-designed music, and the tried-and-true Zelda gameplay intact makes this THE best Zelda game of all time.  Hands down.

[mantidor]

OoT was the game it was because of the jump to 3D, to replicate that in the console they have to make awesome remote controls that are intuitive and perfect and fit the game perfectly as well.

"Too wordy? I am merely using a lot of words needed for me to express the perceived faults with TLP."

I thought that was what wordy meant

"Aonuma was not the master behind OOT, Miyamoto was. Aonuma was an apprentice who worked WITH Miyamoto. There is a difference."

I said masters, as in the whole team.

[Gamebasher]

Another thing which I feel is so annoying about how Nintendo makes the Zelda games, is that with each new 3D Zelda game there is a different Hyrule. Why can´t it be the same way it was from the beginning in O.o.T..? In TLP, you get to hear familiar names such as Kakariko Village, Lake Hylia, Hyrule Field etc.

It´s fine enough with me that the name´s are back from O.o.T.  But since Zelda was supposed to reflect something eternal, why can´t we go back to having Kakariko Village right ON Death Mountain as it was in O.o.T., and Lake Hylia where it used to be in that same game? Just because some decades pass (I talk about the timeline in TLP, not WW), it wouldn´t move the lake or the village would it?

In WW the whole land was flooded at the time of the beginning of that story, which I can follow. But if they are to stick to the timeline, they had better explain to us why Hyrule isn´t the same after O.o.T. in TLP. TLP is after O.o.T. and before WW. I think it would be in place if Nintendo could stick to keeping the MAPS the SAME, and the adventures ever changing. It is fine to upgrade the landscape in terms of graphics, and thus keep us returning to that familiar Hyrule many of us loved when playing in even greater high-resolution glory, but it would still FEEL the old same familiar Hyrule from the first 3D Zelda O.o.T. and thus keep us attached to it in that way. I don´t like this whole concept of darting all over a virtual world where I feel no attachment at all. Hell, I feel attached to my country in real-life for a REASON, don´t I?

Things, ways, customs, sights, sounds and memories of it all. Were some sky god to suddenly whisk it all away, and say to me "Now we move to Tingle-land, where you will live there, and go here to do this and that" I would be upset! I am attached to familiar places. Instead of always changing Hyrule, they should instead expand on the map, opening up new lands to explore BEYOND Hyrule, leaving Hyrule itself right where it is from O.o.T. The beauty of a game world is to keep your home in it the same, allowing you to always return to that home after extensive adventures.

I simply can´t stand the differences seen always in Hyrule from one Zelda game to the next. Hyrule lies in one place, looks one way. Jumping back and forth in time is what they like to do with Zelda, and that is their right to do so as developers. But Hyrule should remain in one place, and look the same. They have to stay happy and motivated, as it is them who have to do all of the hard work to get the games made. But I would like to see a more real-life approach to where Hyrule is situated on maps, and a better implementation of story elements, in particular a better narrrative experience, which involves the player in the way Hyrule has changed over the years. I think they could "upend the teatable" with regard to the Zelda story progression formula, by starting to voice acting the characters. It would save them all of the text, and that would save time since you speak up to 6 times faster than you write!

If Miyamoto, Aonuma, and the remaining team responsible for Zelda developement, could listen to this it could help to keep the Zelda game world more familiar to the gamers with each new sequel. It is important that there is a focus on what the gamers expect from Zelda, and here I am not talking about 1000 different views that would tear them apart trying to satisfy too many hopefull wishes but about what we can all agree on is right for the franchise. That in turn would require a survey with question given to selected players, which would illuminate what it is that is in general expected.

So I have now touched on the attachment-aspect to why I love O.o.T. above all other Zelda games made since.

Am I the only gamer who wants Hyrule to look the same with each new game? The only gamer who feels confused and bewildered when Links, and Princess Zelda´s home keeps on moving by the hand of developers?