Messages

1

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Nintendo and it's philosophies

« on: August 21, 2005, 07:14:14 PM »

I've discussed this before at other forums.  Basically...there IS a mid-ground between the simplicity of the D-PAD and the functionality of the Analog Stick.  I only thought of it when a recent Miyamoto interview quoted him debating aloud which was better: the D-PAD or the  Analog Stick?  I found the quote interesting 'cos why would Miyamoto question such a thing?  I mean, wasn't the Analog Stick eventually suppossed to replace the D-PAD...why question it?  Obviously it's 'cos they wanna reach the simplicity of the olden days.

I theorized on a mid-ground dirrectional control idea I called the "3D-PAD".  It's a big rounded pressure sensitive D-PAD combined with a raised outer touch sensitive ring and a central protruding jogball.  All 3 features can function together or seperatly...in combination or independently from one another.  It has the inviting and comfortable look of a D-PAD with more than enough function to play today's games.  It can play games from any past Nintendo system (including GCN) while still allowing for ports from other systems.  Older classic games would simply use the D-PAD normally.  Games that require analog control would use the jogball for light movement (creeping), the pressure sensitive D-PAD for mid-ground movement (walking) and for sharper movement (running) you would use the outter ring...it would feel somewhat like rolling your thumb around an analog thumbstick, more comfortably too.  For games that require a D-PAD & analog control (Metroid Prime for changing visors, Rogue Leader for giving squad commands, etc.) that's still possible since the touch sensitive analog ring & jogball are more raised and seperate from the D-PAD which means you could use either function (digital or analog) seperatly from one another.  Taking this further, new games can be designed to use all 3 features independently...imagine a next generation Mario that uses the outter ring to run, the inner jogball to tip-toe and the D-PAD from rolling, crouching and diving...it's like having an Analog Stick that has four different digital clicks.  More depth in dirrectional control than an Analog Stick while having the simplicity & comfort in the look & feel of a D-PAD.

This could explain why Nintendo hasn't shown it yet...if they did, people may think that their simplicity talk meant that they were ditching 360* analog control for simpler 8-way dirrectional control.  Nintendo wants to show this thing when we can play games with it and feel it for ourselves and FEEL that it isn't Nintendo "dumbing it down"...rather that they're making it look and feel simpler to attract more casual, drop-out & non-gamers all while keeping the analog dirrectional control functionality to be able to play today's games.  This could be nothing, but if you notice in Nintendo's new annual report there are pics which show a hand using a stylus and a D-PAD.  The stylus is obviously for the NDS, but if you look closely though, the D-PAD doesn't look like the NDS D-PAD...which could mean I'm on the right track.  Again, why would Miyamoto openly question and debate which is better if they weren't either dropping one in favor of the other or (as I'm theorizing) merging the 2 into 1?

You may be wondering...why should Nintendo aim to merge them anyways?  Besides looking & feeling simpler for the audience Nintendo is aiming for, it also cuts down on the cluttery look of today's controllers.  Today's controllers have 4 distinct thumb possitions, this is very intimidating to non-gamers and novice gamers alike.  I think the best way to simplify that is to reduce these 4 possitions back to just 2 home possitions again...that way a newer gamer at least knows where to place thier thumbs.  But how does Nintendo do it without sacrificing function?  The right side (buttons and secondary dirrectional control) is easier...just bring things closer together and lay it out better.  The left side (analog control & digital control) is more difficult...unless you combine the two!  My theory not only combines them, but also allows them to function together as well as seperatly!

2

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Paring down the Revolution controller

« on: August 01, 2005, 12:19:48 PM »

I'm drawing up a bitmap of my layout idea.  Basically, there's still 4 places (stick, D-Pad, buttons, trackball), but I've bunched them together and it looks like they're not so seperate making 2 thumb placements.  To prevent accidental presses I've incorperated raised/lowered surfaces to make them feel seperated while still having all the functions in primary possition.  My D-Button is also more functional (and larger) so that people who prefer it may use it for even analog control (by lightly rubbing the jogball in the center of it) while still having that stiff 2D 8 dirrectional feel.  It's all coming together nicely.

As for the grips...I'm not really saying they're buttons.  More a "skin" of grip sensitive sensors over the handles.  It may not seem practical to us as gamers, but to non-gamers I think they'll find grip sensitive control easy to understand and very natural.  Have you ever seen early or non-gamers hold the controller and grip it tightly like as if it's going to help make them do more or go faster or whatnot.  This goes hand in hand with early or non-gamers who move the whole controller in hopes of making Mario jump higher or making their F-Zero craft lean into a turn harder.  Now...these two (grip & tilt) can be incorperated into controllers and I think when Iwata made the comment of a mother watching her child play watching him play get's her interested in trying it herself.  Why?  Because non-gamers can understand something like that better than memorizing buttons.  Not saying buttons should be done away with at all, but that attracting non-gamers in with features like that is a start...follow that up with a comfy feel, a controller that isn't intimidating looking or complex and giving them other things they could better understand (like a PC toggle wheel or trackball) and you may have hooked yourself a new gamer.  They'll pick up the buttons (especially if each is contoured/texturized differently) and dirrectional control as they go.

I'm also thinking up something else that is evolved form of the rumble pak.  Basically, it's water displacement and movement inside the grips.  Imagine feeling a pumping feeling like a racing heartbeat or a pulsating feeling like something crawling in your palms...they could use valves to swish the water around in that fasion.  I'm just thinking aloud at this point, but this could be used with the suppossed heating/cooling system that King Dea said was in the controller.

[notic]

3

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Paring down the Revolution controller

« on: July 31, 2005, 01:48:25 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: notic
no

Are you like the forum cut-up?

You said "I think he did say GCN games" and I'm like who...what plays GCN games, who are you talking to and who said it plays GCN games.  So I try to clarify and you simply say "no". HA HA HA!

[notic]

4

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Paring down the Revolution controller

« on: July 30, 2005, 08:45:08 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: notic
i think he did say GCN games

Who what now?

He didn't dirrectly say that the Revolution controller would be able to play GCN games, but by sandwiching the GCN games in with the NES, SNES, N64 & Revolution comments, that kinda seals it for me.  I think the reason why GCN may be sorta mentioned as a sidenote is 'cos they wanna make it clear that the NES, SNES & N64 backword compatibility is 'cos they're downloadable...which the GCN games aren't downloaded, but instead played dirrectly from the disc for their backword compatibility.

5

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Paring down the Revolution controller

« on: July 30, 2005, 06:53:03 AM »

Something just came to my attention.  In the past (when they've described the controller) Reggie has said it needs to be able to play NES, SNES & N64 games, but I never noticed him saying GCN games.  But, on another board I saw Reggie DID include the GCN as a playable platform with the Revolution controller and it's in the IGN FAQ.  I dunno how this slipped past me but that was a big question mark to me (whether the Revolution controller could be used to play GCN games).  Since it can that means that there HAS to be the following:
-main control stick
-4 face buttons
-D-Pad
-secondary stick
-analog buttons with digital click

However, this doesn't mean that they have to remain the same.  Some of these functions could be replaced/modified into more functional features that still work in playing old games.  In fact, going by Teddman says the face buttons are changed and going by what King Dea says the secondary stick is replaced by a trackball...and both agree that this controller can be used to play GCN games.  Teddman says a SNES diamond layout for the buttons though...which loses the GCN simplicity layout...or does it?  I've theorized on this at other boards.  If Nintendo goes back to the old SNES layout I think it's 'cos they wanna make it *look* normal, but they could contour/texturize each button to make them easily identifiable like the GCN layout is.  Here's how:
A-convex with smooth surface, feels normal
B-concave with spiraling surface, feels like quicksand
X-flat with wavy texture, feels like liquidic gel
Y-soft with dotted bumps, feels like rubber

I've further thought about this in regards to GCN games.  The "big A" is lost with this SNES layout 'cos all the buttons are the same size...this may feel out of place and looks out of place when playing GCN games with a GCN HUD on screen.  So, to compensate, I figure a rounded raised surface can be around the A button to make it feel bigger, but actually look normal.

Spak-Spang...
I'm sorry I misunderstood your analog stick idea.  I see nothing wrong with giving the stick more resistance I guess.  Teddman, King Dea and (now, I've found) Reggie says GCN games can be playable with the Revolution's controller.  Which is a releif 'cos it means that both the stick & D-Pad will be there...but Miyamoto's recent comments do suggest there will be changes as he said some people don't "get" the stick and he's debating aloud which is better, the stick or D-Pad for dirrectional control.  Again, this suggests that the D-Pad may be evolved to be able to play today's games and that both the stick & D-Pad will be primary methods of control instead of one being offset to a secondary possition.

You wanna hear my theory?  I haven't finnished it yet, but if what Teddman, Iwata, Miyamoto, King Dea & Reggie are all hinting at is true then I think the Revolution controller will:
-look simpler, less intimidating & less like a toy
-2 thumb possitions, not 4
-comfortable to hold (stressball material in the grips)
-normal button layout, contoured/texturized buttons so players can tell the difference between them
-2 additions more natural to non-gamers: tilt pak control & grip sensitive control
-2 additions more familiar to non-gamers: trackball in place of the C-Stick & clickable toggle wheels in place of the analog buttons
-more advanced "D-Button" more precise to play today's games while keeping the old 8 dirrectional feel for old games
-analog control stick & "D-Button" both in primary possition for dirrectional control
-built-in mic for audible control**
-more immersive force feedback offering not only the feeling of rumble, but also of pulsating, pumping, buzzing, throbbing, etc.*
-also for immersion is a heating/cooling sensory fan*

*These are more/less what King Dea said...I don't really trust him so much, but these features are possible I guess.

**Might be better to have a headset of some kind, but then the feature is sold seperatly which isn't as cool.

I think there could also be some other small features.  I would like a simple built-in screen for settings, button configurations, feature calibration, wireless channel selection, the ability for a remote software power up and reset and maybe even for in-game stuff...otherwise there's gonna have to be some way to do these things in a less practical way.  If there is a way for the system to go mobile then I think it'd be nice to have a mounting system on top of the controller so the player can mount the portable screen on the controller to play games on the go.

6

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Paring down the Revolution controller

« on: July 29, 2005, 08:26:51 PM »

Spak-Spang...
I really wasn't talking about "scroll bars" although scroll wheels (like on a PC mouse) would be ideal for shoulder buttons.  What I was talking about was changing the D-Pad and making it more suitible for todays games while still having that stiff/solid 8 dirrectional feel.  I suggested two ways to change or evolve the D-Pad:
#1- Make it bigger/more rounded (like a big button) and make the whole thing pressure sensitive so it can be as precise as an analog stick while still having that digital flat feeling for certain games.
#2- Keep it the same (rather make a N64 sized D-Pad) and put a jogball in the middle of it.  A jogball is a smaller, softer clickable trackball...I have one on my small SD camera and it's very sensitive (just slightly move your thumb over it and it moves the on-screen curse in that dirrection) and very precise.  This is the better option for evolving the D-Pad 'cos it stays the same when you press it in the 8 dirrectional way, but if you merely rub your thumb over the jogball in the middle of it you get more precision control.

Miyamoto recently stated A) analog control was too hard for some players and B) he doesn't know which should be the central dirrectional control (the D-Pad or the analog stick).  So, to me, if they're keeping both for true backwords compatibility and for ports then they have to do 2 things to coincide with Miyamoto's suggestions.  They need evolve the D-Pad, so that players who prefer it over the analog stick can use it for today's games and secondly they need to make it to where both the stick and the D-Pad can be used primarily instead of one or the other being in a more out of place secondary possition.

As far as your suggestions go for a more advanced analog stick...I think what you're suggesting (a stick that can go around and in and out for spacial 3D control) would not be very durable or even practical.  For instance, let's say a game uses this control scheme of not only going in different dirrections on the normal plane (like an anlog stick does today), but also spacially in and deeper into the controller then you're only asking for it to get stuck and for players to get frustrated when games that use it are going in & out instead of up & down.  A clickable stick, cool...but a dirrectional pressure analog stick would be too much.  Besides Miyamoto said some gamers can't fully "get" analog sticks and this is true...so why make it more complex.

Also true is that he stated that not only did some players not understand the idea of a pressure sensitive analog trigger (like on the GCN's controller), but that they themselves didn't make games that fully used it in gameplay.  When I suggested pressure sensitive grips...I don't think they'll be buttons.  I'm thinking that the controller's grips will be softer (like made of stressball material) and that in that "skin" there will be sensors that sense when they're being pressed in or not...there would be possibly dozens of small sensors throughout the grips skin and the tighter one grips the handles the more of these sensors are pressed and therefore more grip sensitivity is gauged.  This could be used to make turns tighter, punches harder, wrestling grapples, attacks more intense...whatever, it would be it's own large button that people can fully understand better than analog triggers.  "Just grip it tighter" is all you'll have to tell someone who wants to use it's functionality.

Also, when Miyamoto says it'll be easy to copy...I don't think we should take that word for word.  I don't think Nintendo would be giving the competition such a heads-up...I think it's more of a tactic to throw them off as if to say "don't finnish your controller yet" and possibily set them back.  This goes more for Sony than MS since they're the ones who're launching later and, like Nintendo, haven't shown their final controller.  Let's say that my ideas (matched by Nintendo's own words, what Teddman saw/heard & what King Dea *may* know) are true...the Revolution won't be so easily copied 'cos the Revolution is not simply one magic thing...it's a bunch of lil' ones altogether.  

[Spak-Spang]

7

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Paring down the Revolution controller

« on: July 29, 2005, 09:59:52 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
Well then lets brainstorm some more.

Can we eliminate the obvious problems with Gyro controls?

Can we figure out ways of making an Analog Stick behave similar to a digital Arcade stick to eliminate the need for a D-Pad?

Can we figure out a means to get more definate precision with an analog joystick.  I believe the analog stick should be so well designed that you can feel how sharp you are turning or how fast you are running from the position of the stick not just the onscreen clues...how do we achieve that?  

Is a trackball/mouse a legit answer?  It would definately open up some more possibilities in game design.  (Wario Ware or Mario Party would ROCK with a trackball addition to the controller.)

I totally believe in what Teddman saw/said about the Revolution controller.  I don't think it's the end-all be-all though.  For instance, I think the (GCN-like) placement and basic features will be like what he saw so as to give developers a fast heads-up with beta Revolution developement kits.  But the controller, as a whole, will be more comfortably layed out and possibly have some feature changes/added with final developement kits.

Teddman basically saw a wavebird with a SNES button layout and was told there was no gyros or touch screen even planned at all.  However, he didn't know what was internal nor do any of us know what Nintendo may add later.  Teddman is just a journalist, not a developer...and the developer he talked to may have been throwing him off...but I do believe now, that there won't be gyros or a touch screen due to them being impractical, complex & expensive.  I could be wrong, but the recent Miyamoto interview, Nintendo's past statements about simplicity and Teddman support what I'm saying here.

Then there's the King Dea blog...say what you will, but his discription basically fits what Teddman said of it *looking* like a WaveBird while (since he's suppossedly a developer) listing internal features.  He also says no screen, but he mentions gyro's, but like in passing.  I'm thinking this magical gyro journey will merely be a tilt pak (like what's in some GBA games and what was planned on being in the NDS).  This still would benifit gaming being able to move the controller for control, but it's no replacement for a stick or fluent 3D movement.  King Dea also states a more advanced force feedback, a heating/cooling sensation when holding the controller and grip sensitive handles...all of which would be more internal things Teddman couldn't see in his 10 second glance...so they may be true.  King Dea also says the secondary C-Stick is replaced by a trackball which doesn't fit with what Teddman say, but again, the GCN's C-Stick would look and work a little like a trackball so maybe the early developement kits came with a C-Stick equiped controller, but the final controller will have it replaced by a trackball.  King Dea also mentions a mic & secondary L & R triggers, neither of which Teddman could see so could also be possible.

So...what...it's a modified GCN controller?  Maybe so.  Maybe the Revolution isn't one magical thing, maybe it's a bunch of smaller things altogether.  I'm also thinking that the revolutionary interface doesn't neccessarily mean just the controller...otherwise they'd stop saying interface and instead say controller.  What if the console's interface in itself is revolutionary (ex: a console/mobile hybrid game machine) and/or maybe the revolution refers to exclussive graphical enhancements on the system like cube-mapping or how fast/cheap/easy it is to make games for.  I'm thinking the "Revolution" itself is all of these things.

As far as Spak-Spang's comments on a new control stick/D-Pad solution, I've given alot of thought to this.  Nintendo pioneered both and Miyamoto's recent comments about analog being difficult for some players and then he question's which one should be primary to the controller even.  I'm hoping both are included, but I'm thinking that the D-Pad will be evolved and that (instead of setting it into a secondary possition like on the GCN controller) both the stick will be in primary possition to use for control depending on preference.  This makes the controller look less busy, is accomendating to people who prefer one or the other and still offers backwords compatibility with GCN games as well as ports from other systems.  How to advance the D-Pad though, hmmm?  I've thought of making it more rounded and more pressure sensitive so it's almost as precise as an analog stick or even putting a small jogball in the center of it to give it a dual function of a stiff 8 dirrectional D-Pad plus the precision of a trackball.

[Dasmos]

8

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Paring down the Revolution controller

« on: July 28, 2005, 09:59:13 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Dasmos
At least he finally stated that the interface was the controller...

I wouldn't be too sure.  Not saying I believe in VR goggles or 3D glasses or gyro tracking headsets...but I think they refer to the whole user experience as the "interface".  

9

Nintendo Gaming / RE:The Time for a Revolution Unveiling should be soon

« on: July 27, 2005, 09:11:43 PM »

I think they're trying to throw off Sony since (they too) haven't shown off their controller.  I seriously doubt they'd boldly give their competition a heads-up by saying "our Revolution will be easy to copy"...I think it's more of a throw a wrench into their plans by keeping them on their toes and making them not know what to expect.

10

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Paring down the Revolution controller

« on: July 27, 2005, 08:56:32 PM »

It's not me, personally, trying to suggest it...it's Miyamoto saying that the new controller will work well with Pikmin and I merely threw out that it could be a trackball or mic.  NO WHERE did I suggest that any and all games should use a mic...nor does having a mic on the controller mean that games will be hindered by it...if a developer doesn't wanna use it, they don't have to, it's not required.

Besides, when I think about mic commands I don't think of actual verbal words ('cos I've never known it to work real well), but more tones & volumes.  Sounds like whistling, singing, blowing, clapping, laughing, yelling...all of which are universal across the world.  When you want your Pikmin to sneak around whisper to them, when you want them to hurry up, yell at them.  Doesn't matter what you say when you do it, just express the proper tone/volume and you're in.

11

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Paring down the Revolution controller

« on: July 27, 2005, 07:36:26 PM »

Someone said something about the Miyamoto Pikmin quote.  I'm thinking it's either related to a trackball and/or mic...'cos both of those work for Pikmin IMO.

As far as the Nintendo quote about using something different/new...that was meant that it wasn't new, just new to gaming.  An arcade stick is not new to gaming...plus it'd kill portability.  It would help in bringing back...old...old school gamers back, but I don't think it's likely.

Someone was talking about a new way to invent the D-Pad or control stick.  I came up with a concept (that I don't think will happen, but it's an idea) of a large D-Button with a small jogball (like a smaller, softer more sensitive trackball) placed in the center.  The D-Button would work like an 8 dirrectional D-Pad only it would be pressure sensitive to a degree in each dirrection either determining the possition or intensity of a press.  The jogball could be used in conjuction or as a more sensitive way to control.  The problem is using it in a game that required a stick and a D-Pad at the same time (Metroid Prime ex: moving with the stick, changing visors with the D-Pad) as it would be hard to tell the "D-Button" which function (digital or more analog) the player wanted to use.

12

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Paring down the Revolution controller

« on: July 26, 2005, 05:01:57 PM »

The GCN ports are for full backwords compatibility.  DK wouldn't be cool without bongo's, FF:CC & LOZ:4 Swords would lose itself without connectivity, DDR Mario wouldn't be right without the dancepad, MP6 loses it's function without the mic...yadda yadda yadda.  Plus, if there's any peripherals or specialty controllers that would require themselves to be hard-wired then those ports could be used for that.  The ports could also double as a special recharging station for your controllers maybe.

I'm hoping that the Revolution controller can be used to play GCN games, but whenever Nintendo refers to the "interface" they always say that it'll work well for backwords compatibility with NES, SNES & N64 games...leaving out the GCN games.  Cutting out functionality by making it incompatible with GCN games would likely mean that ports from other systems (who use similar to GCN type controllers) would not be wise.

Adding controller slots (like with N64, DC & X-BOX) back would be nice for expansion, but I'm hoping that whatever revolutionary features are BUILT-IN to each controller from the get-go.  Besides, there was an oppurtunity to do lot's of things with controller slots in the past, adding slots now just goes right back to those problems of having to buy all these new "paks" to get full function with some games.  I'm more liking the idea of having a EXT port that can be attached to different options outside of the controller like the GameBoy mini.

["Feel! Revolution Tour"]

13

Nintendo Gaming / RE:The Time for a Revolution Unveiling should be soon

« on: July 25, 2005, 04:40:13 PM »

This is what I posted over at GAF about where/when/how I think Nintendo will go about the unveiling...

Quote
I don't think there will be a Nintendo conference until the hardware specs are finalized, the features are finalized, the controller is finalized and the games are playable at whatever event it's gonna be unveiled at. In otherwords, I think it'll be like the NDS unveiling, only in Japan (like the "Touch! DS Tour"). They'll probably call it the "Feel! Revolution Tour" 'cos the interface is something that you will have "feel to believe"...which probably makes sense with how (Teddman says) the controller looks "normal" yet has features you won't be able to fully realize until you hold it & play with it yourself. That way, Nintendo can get away with a normal looking controller and not be called out on the Revolution being revolutionless. Plus they'll probably reveal that the "interface" means beyond just the controller and into other non-controller revolutionary aspects of the system...like it being a psuedo home console/mobile gaming system as well as how the hardware makes it comparable to the competition yet cheap, fast & easy to program for. Like with NDS, we probably won't get actual specs nor will they give specifics on them, but they will show stunning visuals to qualm the fears that it would be underpowered. Plus they can hold out on unveiling it for a while (to get lot's of playable games/demos ready) that way. This totally fits with what Nintendo has been saying without being too unbelievable right?

[MrMojoRising]

14

Nintendo Gaming / RE:New Patent

« on: July 24, 2005, 11:16:22 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: MrMojoRising

Quote
Originally posted by: DrGAKMANx
No pics, but it has a description of the figures. Figures 9 & 10 talk of a cord coming out of the bottom of the controller. Doesn't say what it attaches to, nor does it point out wether the cord is actually a part of the controller or not. I assume the cord would be for recharging of course, but could also be for a headset maybe? It says the cord is: "accommodated within grooves on a bottom surface" which I also assume means that it plugs into the bottom and is maybe held in place by grooves?

Peculiar that the full patent isn't there and the description is of 10 figures (pictures) that aren't even shown. This patent is probably JUST for the aesthetics (appearance, layout, shape, etc.) of the controller and won't neccessarily tell what all the features of said controller may have.

Applying this to what Teddman said he saw (just days ago, as in soon after this patent was filed) then it can be assumed that Nintendo has patented merely the preliminary controller being shipped with early dev. kits. It should be mentioned that what Teddman saw was an image (not the actual physical controller itself), just a pic of it...which was covered up soon after discovery. Going along with what King Dea said, he also didn't get to see much of the actual physical controller, but mainly just a video of it. If I remember correctly, King Dea started his blog probably within the same week this patent was filed.

I think you missed when I mentioned this "Hate to burst everyone's bubble, but I found the full document for the first one and it's for the DK bongos." and then I even provided a link. (Scroll up for OG post and link)

Just not used to the Eurpean Patent search...so by the time I looked up the USD # in the USPTO site...it was too late and I had already posted my "analysis" like a moron.

15

Nintendo Gaming / RE:New Patent

« on: July 23, 2005, 08:51:21 PM »

No pics, but it has a description of the figures. Figures 9 & 10 talk of a cord coming out of the bottom of the controller. Doesn't say what it attaches to, nor does it point out wether the cord is actually a part of the controller or not. I assume the cord would be for recharging of course, but could also be for a headset maybe? It says the cord is: "accommodated within grooves on a bottom surface" which I also assume means that it plugs into the bottom and is maybe held in place by grooves?

Peculiar that the full patent isn't there and the description is of 10 figures (pictures) that aren't even shown. This patent is probably JUST for the aesthetics (appearance, layout, shape, etc.) of the controller and won't neccessarily tell what all the features of said controller may have.

Applying this to what Teddman said he saw (just days ago, as in soon after this patent was filed) then it can be assumed that Nintendo has patented merely the preliminary controller being shipped with early dev. kits. It should be mentioned that what Teddman saw was an image (not the actual physical controller itself), just a pic of it...which was covered up soon after discovery. Going along with what King Dea said, he also didn't get to see much of the actual physical controller, but mainly just a video of it. If I remember correctly, King Dea started his blog probably within the same week this patent was filed.

16

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Paring down the Revolution controller

« on: July 13, 2005, 10:06:45 AM »

Ian Sane...
You're opinion doesn't envelope the entire gaming & non-gaming populous though.

Trackballs, touch panels and gyro tilt paks (not expensive full-out dual-weilding gyro motion control like some are suggesting) are already commonplace in technology.  You say it'd scare you away, but touch screen gaming hasn't scared away NDS users.  And we're talking about the Revolution's interface here, it'll be better than "just" a touch screen, I believe, if they're going that route.  You say those things are turn-off's for you...well what ELSE is going to be so "revolutionary" if it's just more of the same and not something new/different?

Also...I'm not just coming to this conclussion 'cos it's what I want...I just think it makes the most sense from what Nintedno has told us about simplifying controls, attracting the non-gamer, adding something new, giving a sense of feeling as well as having a configurable design that allows for BC as well as forward compatibility.  What ELSE can you think of that fits that criteria?

Spak-Spang...
I sorta agree with you...once you FEEL how comfy the GCN controller is (the hangles, L & R buttons and face button layout especially) most people take a liking to it.  But, until they actually give it a chance the GCN controller has 4 different thumb possitions (as do the X-BOX & PS2 controllers) which is confusing to non-gamers and the controller itself sorta looks toylike/childish to most mainstreamists, especially compared to the competition's controllers.  The Revolution's interface, I think, will deal with those problems by looking simpler as well as less childish.  

[Ian Sane]

17

Nintendo Gaming / RE:Paring down the Revolution controller

« on: July 13, 2005, 08:32:21 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
A Cube game is only intimidating if it's something like Splinter Cell where it takes a few minutes just to explain to someone the controls.

Wrong.  There's these people called non-gamers, drop-out gamers & casual gamers and they all find todays controllers to be too complicated even to look at let alone to touch or use.  These are the kind of people who don't care to remember the name of each of the buttons on the controller.  These are the people who don't even know where to place their thumbs durring the game 'cos there's 4 seperate possitions to even put them in.  These are the people who WOULD try a controller if it were like the NES pad.  Todays controllers are great for the "core" gamers like us, but at the same time they just look intimidating to the eyes of the people Nintendo wants to attract.  The GCN's layout is even worse 'cos it looks so childish and toy-like to many non-gamers despite feeling comfortable.

I for one am GLAD that Nintendo is looking to get the drop-out gamer back into gaming 'cos these are some of my friends and my brothers who had given up on gaming once there were more than 2 buttons.  You're taking Mr. Iwata's comment as if Nintendo is looking to get rid of all the conventional controls to dumb things down for these people, but I see it as him making it a point to say that they're making the controller look & feel LESS complex for them.  This doesn't mean that the new controller won't be able to play complex games, in fact I'm pretty sure it'll be able to handle all new types of control due to it's new features.

Reggie's more recent comments about a configurable controller for BC with past games should also allow for forward compatibility with today's games.  It makes me think that customizable touch panels that can offer some sort of tactile resistance (as a button would) is going to be a part of the revolutionary interface.  Not full out haptic full color touch screens or anything, but something like that black/blue Russian fake.  Plus there's always been talk of "feeling" the new interface.

I've gone back to the drawing boards again for my design.  Grip sensitive handles, L & R analog toggle wheel triggers with digital clicks, new jarring force feedback, tilt sensor, mic and a very simplistic (less intimidating) controller face.  The face of the controller will have a thumbstick on the left side and a trackball on the right side, the rest of the face will be touch sensitive (due to touch panels) and will light up different button layouts (hence the configurability/customization) as well as in-game player specific info...the surface will be texturized so the player can "feel" where their thumbs are before they press so they don't have to look down at the controller while playing games.  The controller LOOKS very basic and simple...that's to lure non-gamers in, but it would also allow for complexity that's even deeper than today's traditional controllers.

Just 'cos Mr. Iwata says controllers are and look too complex, doesn't mean the Revolution will be an NES pad...it just means they're working on a NEW way to play games that looks and feels less intimidating to gamers & non-gamers alike.

18

Nintendo Gaming / RE:My Nintendo Revolution Controller Concept

« on: June 28, 2005, 08:27:09 AM »

Ewa Sonnet isn't a porn star.  Sure, sometimes she uses the glamour make-up and all that, but even when she doesn't she's NATURALLY beautiful (no cosmetic surgery like most porn stars) and nothing fake on her.  She models, she's done nudes, but she's NOT a porn star, in fact, she claims to be a virgin waiting for marriage.

Enough about that, it's just a difference of opinion I guess, I have good taste and you're blind.  j/k

The A button in my design is bigger than the GCN's A button and likewise the B button is in the shape/possition of the GCN's X button, only bigger as well.

The 3-in-1 toggle wheel-analog trigger-with digital click may be too much, I threw the analog part in at the last minute 'cos I thought it'd work.  I *don't* like the idea of two shoulder buttons though 'cos that's too confusing for non-gamers & drop-out gamers...plus it takes away from the grip sensitive skin's functionality.  The L & R handle's grip sensitive skin could act as L2 & R2 for games.

Thanks for the compliments and I'm glad I could change your mind on having 2 toggle wheels for usefulness in games.  Besides weopon & item selecting, I think toggle wheels could also be used for zooming in and out in sniper mode, adjusting frequencies (imagine an in game radio you have to "tune in" to get to work, or you have to change frequency in a guided missile to penetrate enemy defenses, etc.) or even for powering up or down in certain games.  As far as using it as a CAPCOM fighting controller, the analog aspect wouldn't defeat being able to use the toggle wheels as normal "buttons".

19

Nintendo Gaming / RE:My Nintendo Revolution Controller Concept

« on: June 27, 2005, 07:46:08 PM »

You guys are blind or something, she has the eyes of Manon, the face of Linda Hamilton and the body of...well...perfection, her voice & personality are nice too.  And she looks good no matter what she's wearing too.  All that and she's an ALL natural beauty.  Enough of Ewa, I guess her beauty is too much for your mortal eyes.

I made the buttons "non-traditional" in order to be more attractive to non-gamers & drop-out gamers who fear controllers with more than two buttons.  It's still as functional as a controller with 4 face buttons, but designed to be more inviting for the exact people Nintendo is going after.

The toggle wheel is really a 3-in-1 button.  It scrools, it's an analog button, and it has a digital click...very functional.  However, I doubt developers would be forced to put all 3 functions into their games.  They would likely assign the selecting of the weopon/item to the toggle wheels, while leaving the firing of a weopon to a different button, or vice versa.  If they were to assign both functions to the toggle wheel/analog trigger then it would be like assigning movement to the analog stick & crouching to that stick's digital click...not really a problem IMO.  Don't see a reason for two toggle wheels?  What about a game like Gauntlet where you have to constantly scrool thru your weopon AND item inventories in real time...having 2 toggle wheels would make this less distracting/tedious.  Also, since it's a 3-in-1 button, let's say you use the left one for selecting weopons and the right one for firing?

The vertical dual-weilding method would be more of an OPTION rather than a requirement.  And while the face functions of the controller (stick & D-Button on the left, track ball & buttons on the right) would be at a different angle, they could still be easily reached by one's thumb...but their function is secondary to the gyro motion control AND the grip sensitive control in this mode.  In vertical mode their hands are wrapped perfectly around more of the grip sensitive skin which developers could map different sensors in the skin to different functions: like a gun trigger or a bats grip or game makers could program it to where the intensity of one's grip determines the intersity of a punch or swing.

[nemo_83]

20

Nintendo Gaming / RE:My Nintendo Revolution Controller Concept

« on: June 27, 2005, 10:56:19 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: nemo_83

Quote
Originally posted by: MrMojoRising

Quote
Originally posted by: Artimus
I can't look at your designs, I'm so distracted by how ugly that girl in your avatar is! eek!

Don't look at her face, then she's plenty attractive.  On topic:  So one could use two controllers to duel weild in FPS's and such...because I know if I had three controllers and one friend, I'd be duel weilding and my friend would be complaining...then would they want me to buy two controllers for everyone I want to play...that could be 8 controllers and I'm cheap.

That is why I have always pushed the idea of break apart controllers.  In some games you could even play four player (plus whoever is online) with only two whole controllers.  If Mario Kart for example only needed one half a controller using the gyro inside then you could break the controller a part and hand a friend one handle.  If you have three controllers, then you can play six player.

Then games would have to be programmed with either half by itself in mind...too goofy and not too many games would take advantage of that.

In past designs I was really all for a 2 peice interface set-up, but after months of thinking & doodling I've gone "back to" a one peice controller set-up instead...a set-up that can STILL do dual gyro motion control in some games by using one controller in each hand (N64-Goldeneye, NES/SNES-Smash TV, etc.).  I said before that a 2 peice controller (wether 2 seperate peices or a detachable controller) would NOT be practical for *several* reasons, but you guys didn't believe me so lemme break out the list:
-ups the cost by requiring two gyros, two wireless transmitters, two rechargable batteries, etc.
-complicates wireless addressing
-may be TOO radical for some people, complaints from people who break, lose or mix up one of them rendering the whole interface useless
-recharging would require two recharging cables or an adaptor
-might be a strain on the hands to have a seperated controller when playing "normal" games
-making the controller attachable/detachable is asking for it to be broken...especially if there's some form of grip sensitive control
-the overall convieniance of casually sitting on the couch and snacking while gaming is sorta hendered by the fact you would have to put down one part, eat a snack/take a drink, look for and regrab/adjust to the part you just set down and repeat when you want to keep snacking...just sorta annoyingly inconveiniant

Also, how can you tell what the lovely Miss Ewa Sonnet looks like by ONE mere tiny pic?  In fact she is QUITE gorgeous (face & body), don't make me defend her honor by slapping you around.  

[thepoga]

21

Nintendo Gaming / RE:My Nintendo Revolution Controller Concept

« on: June 26, 2005, 09:20:02 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: thepoga

Quote
Originally posted by: DrGAKMANx

Quote
Originally posted by: TVman
I was just saying that there could be a chance that I would try to go from hitting A hi to B hi and accendentally hitting A lo.

Ah...I really don't think that would be too big of a problem.

So you admit it would be a problem eh? Albeit a small problem, but a problem nonetheless!

No more a problem than any controller with a face layout with 4 buttons...which I explained further in the post.

[TVman]

22

Nintendo Gaming / RE:My Nintendo Revolution Controller Concept

« on: June 26, 2005, 07:35:13 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: TVman
I was just saying that there could be a chance that I would try to go from hitting A hi to B hi and accendentally hitting A lo.

Ah...I really don't think that would be too big of a problem.  "A lo" is the larger portion of the larger button, but hitting it at the same time as trying to hit "B hi" when shifting from "A hi" would be like hitting the A button on the GCN when shifting from Y to X...you just wouldn't press down until you knew you were at the correct button even if your thumb has to pass over another button to reach it.  Believe me, the hi & lo presses of the buttons would be at such an angle so as to prevent accidental presses just as easily as if they were altogether seperate buttons.  Afterall, each of the presses are distinctly different in size, shape and angle: the lo presses slope downward, the hi presses slope upward, A is large and round, B is small and long.  

[TVman]

23

Nintendo Gaming / RE:My Nintendo Revolution Controller Concept

« on: June 26, 2005, 06:07:48 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: TVman
'Zapper mode' intrigues me, yet there needs to be a d-pad and more face buttons.
Also when the time calls for me to press A and B it seems like it'll matter wheter it's hi or lo for either one. When I play games that require pressing A and B in succession I like to slide my thumb instead of picking it up so hitting A hi and then B hi might be difficult.
And can you split the controller itself?

NO splitting controller, that was a part of my old designs...I found that to be impractical for several reasons I'll repeat if you want me to.

There is a D-Pad...or rather a more functional D-Button (remember the rumor of no normal D-Pad or A & B buttons) which has a Jog Ball in the center.

There appears to be just two buttons (A & B) so as to be more inviting to non-gamers, but they're actually 2-in-1 buttons with hi & lo presses on the upper and lower parts of the button.  Basically giving the player 4 presses or 4 buttons making it simple & functional.  It is possible to press the hi & lo portions of one or both buttons at the same time, and I wouldn't see a problem with "sliding" your thumb for quickly switching between presses or combination presses 'cos it was designed JUST for that.  Imagine you assign (in a Street Fighter game) the jab punch to the "B lo" press & the short kick to the "B hi" press, making fast combinations between the two a simple matter of shifting the angle of your thumb between hi & lo presses.

24

Nintendo Gaming / RE:My Nintendo Revolution Controller Concept

« on: June 26, 2005, 03:40:18 PM »

~*BETTER*~ Revision of my controller concept...

DISCUSS!

25

Nintendo Gaming / RE:My Nintendo Revolution Controller Concept

« on: June 23, 2005, 08:39:07 PM »

People don't like it when I write up long-winded posts so I decided to let the pictures do the talking for now.  The design isn't finalized in my head, but it's what I'm working with now before I finnish it.

Mario...
I disagree.  It looks less intimidating and would be attractive to gamers/non-gamers with it's simplicity in 3 key ways:
-gyro motion control, for games that use it, it would attract non-gamers 'cos they can understand normal day-to-day motions like steering, swinging, aiming, etc. much better than memorizing all the sticks, buttons, triggers, etc.
-two thumb possitions (PS, PS2, PS3, X-BOX, 360 & GCN all have 4 distinct thumb possitions...very confusing to the non-gamer) without the loss of function, some may find this a bit scrunched, but the darkened area around the stick (on the left) and the buttons (on the right) signify a raised surface to prevent accidental presses from thumb slippage, keeping the thumbs in two possitions instead of shifting should prevent confusion in gamers & non-gamers alike
-two face buttons, less is more, attracts drop-out gamers back into gaming...each button has an upper & lower portion giving them two varrying presses, but still giving them the look/feel of only two buttons

Spak-Spang...
Thank you.  How do the concepts seem complicated though...elaborate?

Stevey...
The hi & lo portions of the A & B buttons are to keep them simple, yet give them more function keeping ports & BC in tact.  Two buttons that act basically as four.  As far as the N64 C-Buttons go, they could be mapped to the trackball for the most part as most of the time they delt with movement (straffing in FPS's) or camera angles.