Topic: Super Mario World - RFN RetroActive Discussion Thread

[Jonnyboy117]

This is the official forum thread for discussing the winner of our recent poll, Super Mario World. Please make sure your posts are on topic. Comments from this thread may be quoted on Radio Free Nintendo during our RetroActive segments.

Super Mario World is available in many formats, including Virtual Console for 800 points. We encourage all podcast listeners to play it with fresh eyes and post your thoughts here!

[Bboy]

Well, I just downloaded SMW and it seems harder than I remember. Mario seems slipperier, and most of my deaths are just sliding off a platform. The fact that I'm trying to play with a Gamecube controller doesn't help. Thank god for the save state, because I never like having to replay levels in between save points.

One thing that I've notice that is different from other sidescrolling Mario's was that it seem less linear. In other Mario games, rarely do I go left, but I find myself doing so to get some of the dragon coins, or in some cases, just to find the way through the level.

But, I'm definitely having a lot of fun with it, Yoshi somehow just makes it more fun, I'm looking forward to him in the next two Mario games.

[noname2200]

I'm starting to remember why this game was my least favorite 2D Mario.

Don't get me wrong, it's still a fun and well-designed game. It has some variety, and it has 99% of platformers beat. The problem is that, compared to the NES Mario games, World just seems to lack imagination. The first Mario had an Italian plumber stopming his way through an army of evil turtles in order to free a land of mushroom-people. The second "Mario" game was a trippy journey through a dreamworld. Mario 3 had a ton of bizzare power-ups and themes. By contrast, World just feels like a by-the-numbers platformer.

The fact that it released relatively close to Mario 3 only heightens the disappointment. Mario 3 let you turn into a racoon who could fly or turn into a statute, a frog who swims in water and awkwardly hops on land, or a turtle who can throw hammers and duck into his shell for protection. You could even hop into a giant mechanical shoe and literally stomp your way through enemies.

 Mario World replaces these with a cape and a ridable dinosaur, the latter of which almost never really adds anything (although I always take perverse pleasure in making him jump into lava. Seeing Yoshi slowly sink into a river of fiery death always makes me smile). I actually think the cape was a good power-up, as with enough skill it lets you fly through a whole level and dive-bomb enemies, but it still feels less imaginative than Mario 3.

The levels are also a big letdown compared to Mario 3. 3 led you through worlds where the enemies were four times your size, where you explored stages made of clouds, where the whole place was made of pipes and piranha plants, and where you found out that Bowser had a very threatening military, complete with a batallions of tanks, a massive air force, and a complete navy. Every world in Mario 3 had something new, creative, and different to offer, so progressing through the game always feels fresh.

World offers a series of places named after various foods, but which are mostly indistinguishable from one another. I can't recall seeing a single donut or other pastry in the Donut Plains, someone replaced the Soda Lake with water, and the Chocolate Island simply takes the prior levels and replaces all the colors with brown (which shows that Nintendo was once again years ahead of its time).

In this recent playthrough I've only just reached the Forest of Illusion, so I may be forgetting something from later in the game, but I can't recall there being all that much diversity or imagination in any of the levels outside of the Star Road. I can still remember several levels from each of the NES games, but despite replaying much of World just a few hours earlier, I'm hard pressed to remember anything special about any of them; World's levels don't leave any particular impression on me.

I know I'm coming off like I hate the game. I don't; I actually think it's a very well crafted and enjoyable platformer. But at the same time, I have to say that it feels more like a lost opportunity than any of the other Mario games. It feels like Nintendo had spent most of its ideas on Mario 3, and the small window between 3 and World left the latter with a lot less imagination. I'll keep playing to see if this impression holds up, but after almost twenty years I don't think my opinion is going to change much.

[TJ Spyke]

I will be more specific in future posts, this one is off the top of my head.

Bboy, are you playing with a Classic Controller or GameCube controller? The control problems for me were when I tried playing it with a GameCube controller, that is what finally convinced me to buy a Classic Controller.

I have beaten this game many times, and it is still the best 2D Mario game ever made and one of my favorite games period. The special world alone are some of the best stages in the Mario seires. The only stage I hate is the one where you have to get get across the stage by floating over it and collecting several P-Clouds. That damn stage was so difficult that on the SNES I always had to use a Game Genie to beat it.

The final battle against Bowser was more creative and fun that SMB3's lame "stand still, then move right when Bowser jumps and repeat ad nausem" strategy.

Yoshi added a lot of fun to the game and I loved getting the different powers for him. I thought the yellow power was always worthless (that's the one that creates a little stomp when he lands). Blue was the best since it let you fly with Yoshi. The cape provided a lot of fun with Mario, Donut Plains 1 is so much fun to just get a running start and then glide over the entire stage with him.

The bonus stage in the game where you have to hit the blocks to get 1-ups and items was fun, although I didn't like the in-stage one where you had to hit rows of blocks to get 1-ups.

It is such a thrill when you finally unlock every exit in the game and knowing you beat everything.

I love SMB3, but SMW beats it in every possible way to me (with the exception of powerups for Mario). I don't know if New Super Mario Bros. Wii will change it, but Super Mario World is the best 2D Mario game ever made IMO.

[Bboy]

It reminds me of a scrolling shooter, because you can have, for example, Yoshi, a power for Yoshi, a fire flower, and a cape in reserve, and then, in a devastating sequence, lose them all, and be tiny Mario, relying totally on platforming skill. I think what Super Mario World does well is that the levels are designed as such that I sometimes enjoy just trying to get through them without any power ups, just pure level design and platforming skill. And the great thing is that the level design holds up without any of the cool gimmicks added on, something that, for example, I think that New Super Mario Bros. on DS couldn't do. I always felt like it wasn't as fun without at least a fire flower. There is that to a certain extent in SMW, where I feel like I need to use Yoshi, but when you get to a ghost house or castle, and are forced not to use Yoshi, the level design still shines through.

BTW, TJ Spyke, I'm using Gamecube controller. But I've figured out a good way to do it now, using my index finger for the Y button and my thumb for A and B. The GC D-pad is killing my thumb, though.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

I just popped this in for a few minutes. For anyone playing on an original SNES and HDTV, I found that this title is VERY sensitive to input lag, so if you're finding Mario to be ambiguously slipperier than you remember, use an old-school TV.

While I agree with Noname that in general Super Mario World lacks the creative locales and power-ups found in SMB3, the level designs themselves are far more intricate than those of SMB3. I suspect in part due to limitations of the hardware, SMB3 had very  clever and memorable levels, but they were very short. Nintendo was able to expand upon several ideas in SMW, such as having multiple, hidden exits, often requiring puzzle-solving or skillful use of the cape and/or Yoshi.

One shortcoming of most Mario games is that exploration is often rewarded merely with coins and one-ups; as a kid I really derived great satisfaction from discovering a second gate by flying under the first gate on Cheese Bridge. Star Road and the Special World really buck the trend in Mario level progression.

One thing I had forgotten about were the speaker boxes. SMW was the first time Nintendo really tried to incorporate a help system into a Mario game, and I must say it feels a little crude--though they were wise enough to make it optional. It certainly doesn't get in the way, but it's a little tacked-on.

I'll probably have more thoughts as I play more of the game.

[Dasmos]

My problem with SMB3 was its level design. Sure the levels had variety, but variety very rarely existed in the same level. Each level had it's own gimmick then it moved on. SMW is a much more complete and complex game in terms of level design.

Again, sure there were more power-ups in SMB3, but most of them were largely useless or just found in a single level (e.g. Kuribo's Shoe, which has to be the most useless item of all-time, but still awesome). SMW kept the power-ups simple, but added much more depth by having fewer.

[GoldenPhoenix]

SMB3 is still my favorite game of all time. While SMW is fantastic I just never could get into it like SMB3. One thing that bothered me was the lack of power ups. Sure some of the power ups in SMB3 were hard to get but that is what made them special. What it did was make you experiment with them to see what each did and how it changed how the game was played. It also added some unique challenges such as beating the airship levels with a particular power up to see what would change in the King's thank you speech.

Not to mention I can only think of one item that was useless, the frog suit was great for swimming, the tanooki suit was great for getting out of a tough jam, not to mention it could kill enemies like thwomps or the flames. The hammer bros. suit was great defensively and was tremendously powerful offensively. Other items like the cloud were good if you wanted to skip a stage, and the anchor was useful if you didn't clear a straight path to the ship and you die. Perhaps the one item that I hardly used was the music box. Beyond that every item had a useful purpose and required some thought as to where the best place place to use it would be. It wasn't like SMW where you could always refill your items at that secret hut, instead many were limited and you had to ration them making for a unique gameplay experience that sadly was dropped in future Mario games.

It seems to be a lie that SMW had more consistent stage themes, every world in SMB3 had a theme it built the levels around, as did SMW. The trouble was that that the themes in SMW were so similar to each other. Now with that said the levels were well designed in SMW especially when it came to placing the multiple exits. I remember how for the longest time the torpedo ted in the end credits alluded me to the point that I thought they didn't really exist, then I FINALLY found how to get to them and was extremely ecstatic. Though on the flip side the secrets in SMB3 were pretty amazing as well with the whistles, hidden items such as the anchor, mysterious coin ships, and just unique areas that were hidden in each level. SMB3 used its space brilliantly. Also to criticize individual stages in SMB3 for lacking variety in themselves is asinine at best considering that most were quite compact while the stages in SMW tended to be pretty long so variety was almost a requirement, and even then this "variety" statement seems subjective at best.

Bosses were something that I always preferred in SMB3, I found them much more challenging except for the final boss. When it comes to Bowser I think it is a toss up between the final battles, I found both creative in their own way not to mention fun.

Enemy designs were good in both games though, and sadly it appears Nintendo has lost that. My only complaint is the goombas in SMW, I mean they look like walking ball things and you can't even squash them? One area that I think SMB3 achieved better was enemies that would impact the stage itself, whether it was Boss Bass or the Sun. Not to mention the fact that SMB3 was the place where some of Mario's most popular enemies were created like Chain-Chomps (which had an awesome Easter egg if you let them keep jumping at you), thwomps, boo and others. Many of the enemies in SMW never were compelling enough to carry over to other games.

Also anyone that criticizes the Kuribo Shoe is being silly. That was created for that stage alone by Miyamoto, and I give him props for not abusing it, something few games can claim.

To conclude I found SMW to be extremely easy as well while SMB3 was far more challenging, but challenging in a GOOD way. I had far more satisfaction beating SMB3 then I had completing SMW. Though when it is all said and done I'll be replaying both games for a very long time.

[Bboy]

When I saw first saw a Sumo Bro. (fat koopa that stomps and makes the ground erupt), on this playthrough my first thought was, "Goron!" from Zelda. Weird, I wonder if it was an inspiration for Gorons in Ocarina of Time, probably just a coincidence though.

Why didn't that guy make it into any other Mario games? But for the most part I agree, GoldenPhoenix, the enemy design was better in SMB3, particularly the Goombas.

Also, just beat Ludwig, and he has to be the smartest villain in any game, because there aren't any tricks to getting through all his traps.

[GoldenPhoenix]

When I look at SMW and SMB3 I think the similarities of both games are pretty small. They tried to do different things within the platforming genre, which is sadly overlooked by many with SMW getting criticized for being too much of the same. While SMB3 was pretty the epitome of the twitch platforming genre, SMW took a more adventure-esque approach to the genre with the branching paths. Not to mention it provided you with more options when it came to beating the game since there is an easy path to Bowser if you choose to take it. So in many ways SMW was a more open ended platformer while SMB3 was vastly more linear.

So really I think SMW in many ways gets far to little credit when it comes to what it did for the genre, and isn't really SMB3+ but a different type of platformer in many ways.

[Pandareus]

Before I replayed this game for RetroActive, I tried to remember the things about it that blew my 10 year old mind when I first played it: the various mode 7 effects like the pixelation of the screen when entering a level or a door, YOSHI!, the keyhole door engulfing Mario, the gigantic map... This game was really impressive, back in the day.

Slightly less so today. But I still appreciate how it evolved the series. As someone else mentioned, secret doors opening new levels are a much, much better reward for exploration than coins and lives. And the cape is a better power-up than a raccoon tail since it requires skill instead of just a runway.

SMW had a number of improvements that often contributed to making it an easier game, for instance the ability to save, or to replay a level, making racking up lives even easier in a game that perhaps gave you too many to begin with.

Other changes made it a much friendlier game than its predecessors. The bricks were gone, instead you had blocks that spun before becoming solid again, so you couldn't screw yourself out of reaching a high power-up. And Yoshi acted as a shield of sort, giving you essentially one more health point in addition to the power-up you could hold in a box.

All of this makes the game way more friendly to exploration. I have to agree with GoldenPhoenix, this title is way more adventure-y than its predecessors. Yoshi's Island and Super Mario 64 evolved further in that direction, before Galaxy brought back some degree of linearity and twitchiness.

[Dasmos]

lol Yoshi's Island wasn't linear? I don't know what game you were playing.

[Bboy]

So I think that you probably could distinguish SMB3 and SMW as a twitch platformer vs. an exploration platformer. So it really would end the argument as just the basis of taste.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

I think it's unfair to shoehorn SMB3 as a "twitch" platformer. There were some very puzzle-based levels in worlds 6 and 7 in SMB3, as well as little secret rooms and the like. It's just that SMW was able to expand upon these ideas.

EDIT: I had forgotten how aesthetically pleasing this game is. While there isn't a high degree of variety in locales, as discussed above, the environments present are surprisingly detailed and tangible, with tasteful parallax scrolling, interesting "textures," and crisp, cheerful music. (I suspect Nintendo made a prudent decision to make few distinct but interesting locales due to time constraints.) They really put New Super Mario Bros.' prerendered, sterile environments to shame.  I last played this game a few years ago on the GBA, and I think a lot of the game's aural and visual appeal was lost in the transition.

Another observation I've made is that SMW has the most highly-integrated overworld of any Mario game. Not only does the map reflect the branching level progression, but it physically places every level and every "world" in Dinosaur Land, often with recognizable landmarks. SMB3 also did this, but not so comprehensively. Subsequent Mario games have pretty much forgone this level of complexity, possibly because it's a lot of work. Yoshi's Island was linear, and the 3D Mario games' hubs are almost completely removed from the levels themselves. NSMB half-heatedly brings back branching paths. Ironically, the Wario Land series has kept the SMW school of level progression alive.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I think it's unfair to shoehorn SMB3 as a "twitch" platformer. There were some very puzzle-based levels in worlds 6 and 7 in SMB3, as well as little secret rooms and the like. It's just that SMW was able to expand upon these ideas.

I wouldn't shoehorn it into that, but it is closer to that sort of gameplay style then SMW. SMB3 was challenging because of some very twitchy segments. The fact of the matter is that SMW and SMB3 are much more different in what they try to achieve then people give them credit for. It is kind of funny to think that both games were most likely being made at the same time!

[Pandareus]

Speaking of Dinosaur Land, someone has to mention how cool it was to see the stages and enemies of SMW integrated so well in Super Mario Kart. The moles, the ghost houses... it added so much to both games, IMO.

As for SMB3 being a twitch platformer, not completely. We're talking relatively, here. Compared to SMW, it is. Compared to SMB, it's not. But Mario platformers have always featured a good dose of secrets and exploration from the start.

lol Yoshi's Island wasn't linear? I don't know what game you were playing.

I admit my memory's a bit fuzzy, it's been a while. Perhaps because I always aimed for 100% completion in every level, it didn't feel linear to me. It sure as hell was a twitch platformer, though. Or was it? I need to replay it.

[Dasmos]

lol Yoshi's Island wasn't linear? I don't know what game you were playing.

I admit my memory's a bit fuzzy, it's been a while. Perhaps because I always aimed for 100% completion in every level, it didn't feel linear to me. It sure as hell was a twitch platformer, though. Or was it? I need to replay it.

The level progression was as linear as you can get, but I'll admit that the levels weren't always that way. To get 100% in the levels it did sometimes take a lot of exploration.

Also while playing this today I discovered something that I don't think I have ever seen before in all of my play times with this game. I was in the Cookie Mountain stage with Blue Yoshi and I was just flying about and eating stuff, then I ate one of those berries and an egg popped out of Yoshi containing a smiley cloud, it started to float about and drop smile coins or something. I dunno, it's just strange that I had never come across this before. It was just like years ago after I played through the game, after 5 or 6 years, when I came across my first 3-Up. I guess I wasn't as good of a gamer as a kid as I thought!

[TJ Spyke]

Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island was linear. You went from one stage to the next and in the exact order Nintendo wanted you too. You couldn't pick to skip certain levels like you could with Super Mario Bros. 3 or Super Mario World.

[Pandareus]

Well I wasn't referring to the stage select screen, but to the levels themselves. Anyway, forget I said anything. Clearly my experience with the game is different than yours. I remember having to scour huge levels and explore every nook and cranny to get that 100pts score.

[gojira]

When I first saw Mario World win RetroActive I was a little disappointed.  I've played this game a thousand times and I couldn't really think of what I could say about it.

But I've been replaying the game on my SNES.  And the thing that stands out for me is the puzzle aspect to the levels.  All of the multiple exits to the levels usually require extra thought to figure them out.  And I love that aspect to the game. 

Another thing is the abundance of extra lives.  I had 30 by the time I beat the first boss, around 70 by the second and basically maxed out by the third.  But if you save and quit you'll start with five again. 

Also the boss level music is fantastic.

[noname2200]

My problem with SMB3 was its level design. Sure the levels had variety, but variety very rarely existed in the same level. Each level had it's own gimmick then it moved on. SMW is a much more complete and complex game in terms of level design.

This is true, but I think you're taking a positive as a negative. I DO enjoy the longer levels of World, but at the same time the fact that 3 kept everything tight and focused helped to make progressing feel fresh; you only spend three or four minutes on each gimmick, after which you are rewarded with a completely different gimmick. This helps with the pacing, as it means that I get a few minutes of creativity, and then I usually get to try something completely different. This isn't the case with World: because many of the levels share the same tricks, the levels start to feel too similar for my tastes.

If I had to come up with an analogy, I'd say that 3 is akin to a buffet where you can take small samples of a ton of dishes, while World is closer to ordering the T-Bone Steak; tasty, but once you dig in things aren't going to change much.

One shortcoming of most Mario games is that exploration is often rewarded merely with coins and one-ups; as a kid I really derived great satisfaction from discovering a second gate by flying under the first gate on Cheese Bridge. Star Road and the Special World really buck the trend in Mario level progression.

I agree that finding an entirely new level is probably the best way to reward exploration, but I think you're selling the other Mario games short. In the first one, exploring netted you new lives, which in that game were otherwise as rare as splinters from the True Cross: they meant more than they do in any other Mario game. There were also plenty of warps, which can't be understated. Mario 2 often gave you more lives or health, as well as level warps of its own. Since 2 is a pretty challenging game, all of those were more helpful than World's rewards.

 Mario 3 had extra lives buried in nooks and crannies, which admittedly were less valuable than in the original, but it still took a skilled player to keep their life count in the double-digits. Exploration was also how you found those rare suits, flutes, clouds, and other power-ups that made progressing further that much easier.

 I think you're getting spoiled by World's extra-life system, where you get a 1-up for walking at least ten feet, to remember just how precious a reward that green mushroom could be. While I actually prefer that extra lives be plentiful, and I kind of hope that future Mario games altogether abandon the pretense that running out of lives means anything, the rewards in the NES Marios were very well tailored for their respective games.

Having said all that, I did like exploring more in World than in 1 or 3 (but still less than in 2).

[anand]

Super Mario World, eh? Bold choice, people... bold choice. Haha, I'm being an ass in my first post.

Anylord, what do you guys think about the spin jump? I feel it's kind of symbolic of the overstuffed nature of SMW, compared to the lean, mean SMB3. I don't remember it ever being very necessary, except for spinning off of Yoshi. Does anyone have the cartoon that references that, by the way? It's classic.

Anyway, I love SMW, but I still prefer SMB3, because, in two-player mode, you can prevent the other player from ever getting a turn with enough classic Mario Bros. skill.

Yeah.

[Pale]

Well I gave this sucker a download today and played through the first set of stages in two player mode with my wife.  It came flooding back to me even though it's been years since I played it and I started to remember the stages like it was yesterday.

My wife was the complete opposite.  She never played Mario games.  She couldn't even really get the hang of the "run fast" button.  She lasted under 10 seconds on almost every level and was quite frustrated.

I'm determined to get her to relaxe and learn how to play these games.   It's funny to me because she enjoys Little Big Planet and can control sackboys fine, yet all the Mario-taught platform players complain that the sackboys are too floaty and imprecise.

I hope I'll be able to play another world with her tomorrow.

[gojira]

Anylord, what do you guys think about the spin jump? I feel it's kind of symbolic of the overstuffed nature of SMW, compared to the lean, mean SMB3. I don't remember it ever being very necessary, except for spinning off of Yoshi.

I think the spin move was most likely born from the devs coming up with actions for the extra buttons.  Same with the L and R level scroll feature.  Which is fine by me since the spin move was integrated pretty thoroughly in the game.  Yeah it was used to jump off Yoshi.  But it was also a second type of jump attack, kind of a pre-butt stomp.  It also made Mario invulnerable against certain enemies and hazards.  So I used it a lot.

[gojira]

[GoldenPhoenix]

OMG that is so sad.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

I had forgotten how useful Yoshi actually is in this game. When I think back, I usually think of Yoshi as just being "there," and not used for many of the secrets. However, when I started playing the game, I realized just how much I use the double-jump he provides to hit blocks and maneuver around obstacles.

[CaptainK.923]

I'll never forget the Special World. I remember being on my seemingly never ending quest to reach *96 and I finally found the entrance to the Special World. Took down Gnarly with no problem, but then my most hated of levels came afterwards: TUBULAR! This is the one where you have to float through the level as a P balloon and its psychotically hard, or at least it was for me back then. After a few tries I eventually got frustrated and needed a few minutes. I put the controller down and left the room to get a drink. As soon as I came back in and picked up my controller the map music changed to the original Super Mario Bros. theme and I just had to stop and listen. What an outstanding little easter egg! That's a perfect example of why I loved this game so very much. There seemed to be no end to the amount of secrets you could find.

And as a side note, I eventually did reach *96. The Cheese Bridge secret took me forever to find!

[anand]

I love that cartoon. It's the funniest thing ever.

Anylord, what do you guys think about the spin jump? I feel it's kind of symbolic of the overstuffed nature of SMW, compared to the lean, mean SMB3. I don't remember it ever being very necessary, except for spinning off of Yoshi.

I think the spin move was most likely born from the devs coming up with actions for the extra buttons.  Same with the L and R level scroll feature.  Which is fine by me since the spin move was integrated pretty thoroughly in the game.  Yeah it was used to jump off Yoshi.  But it was also a second type of jump attack, kind of a pre-butt stomp.  It also made Mario invulnerable against certain enemies and hazards.  So I used it a lot.

That may be true, the extra buttons. Sort of like a Super Tennis thing? Thinking about it, the spin jump always kind of bugged me, because I felt it was a bit uncomfortable to hit the Y button. I recently realized that I've always disliked symmetrical, diamond-shaped button layouts, where there is no centrally located 'home' button to rest your thumb on. It just feels like bad ergomomics. I should try going back and playing all of those Super NES games with the GCN Hori SNES pad, but I don't know if it would work (or map correctly).

It's funny. When I go back and think of some of my favorite games of all time, like SMB, River City Ransom, Bionic Commando, and Power Spike V-Ball (go Technos!), many of them had only two buttons to work with. It doesn't seem like a good thing, but maybe that was part of their purity.

(That said, I'm also playing through StarTropics for the first time, and that game could REALLY use another button. Or they could just utilize Select in the dungeons...)

[Pandareus]

I should try going back and playing all of those Super NES games with the GCN Hori SNES pad, but I don't know if it would work (or map correctly).

It would. And by would, I mean wouldn't. It would be like playing with a regular GCN. It would "correctly" map the Y, X, B and A buttons of the SNES pad on the Y, X, B and A buttons of the Hori pad, making the game "correctly" nearly unplayable.

[noname2200]

I have a love the spin jump. It's incredibly useful, so much so that I rarely used the regular jump my first few times around. But I've taken to using it less and less, because it makes enemies too easy. I kind of wish there had been more of a tradeoff involved in using it over the regular jump, but that would probably have been too complex for some gamers. Pale's wife provides a good example, although I'm surprised she's having difficulty with this when she's accustomed to Little Big Planet.

I also have to say that I enjoyed how they added the fences. It's a little slow-paced, but they helped to mix things up a bit more and differentiated the castles from all the other levels.

Anyhow, I'm about to tackle my favorite part of the game, the Special World, again. Looking forward to going through lives like Madonna goes through adopted children.

[anand]

Angelina Jolie would probably be a better example.

[Mop it up]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v644/gojira1980/2117095528_5dc326d7c6.jpg

What's even more sad is how often that happens.

[adadad]

Started playing through this game again and I have to say I just find it boring so far. Clearly it's well designed and it ticks the boxes as a "Platform Jumper", but the gameplay style is not for me. I didn't find anything particularly notable about SMB3 either to be honest, although I do love SM64 and the original SMB and the sadistic japanese sequel.

I wonder if people's affection for this game is perhaps born out of nostalgia, or am I just being cynical? The exploration angle is fun at times - for example it is very satisfying to come across a secret exit - but to me SMW feels stale and far too familiar to hold my interest. Mario is a slippery chap who's easily hit and I find this encourages me to take it slowly and safely, which goes against my instinct to race through and puts a dampener on things. Can anyone tell me what is notable about this game to them? Despite never having played this when I was young I feel as though I've played it a million times before in knock offs and imitators.

I hope Yoshi's Island will come out on the VC eventually...

[Stratos]

Hilarious. I felt guilty doing that to find the one secret exit behind the first on the bridge level (I'm guessing that is the Cheese Bridge level people are referring to). Can that be the podcast cover art for the RetroActive section this week? I think it would be great. Please?

I love how you can go back to a classic game like this and make new discoveries like the 3-up and smiley-coin-cloud like referenced earlier. It just adds to the joy and excitement of playing.

I really liked how the land terraformed as you beat levels and opened new secret paths. I would try and look for where secret paths would go on the overworld before playing levels. Speaking of changing the land, I thought the different Master "!" Switches really were a great breakthrough. You would see those block outlines and later when you hit the corresponding color switch they filled in to allow access to secret areas or made levels easier. I think that was one of the first times I saw something like that where an action impacted other levels in that way.

[Jonnyboy117]

Great discussion so far! I want to add a few personal observations from playing the game this week, to help open up the conversation even more.

- The non-linear aspect is spotlighted from the start, as you can play the first two levels out of order. In fact, you could play very far into the game (maybe even beat it) without activating any of the switch blocks.

- Cues to the previous games are shockingly few, especially in the early levels. You don't see Goombas or hear any recognizable Mario songs until deep into the game. Yoshi's Island 1 and 2 seem designed to hammer the point that this is a brand new world for Mario.

- Mario's signature move is jumping up to break blocks, but in SMW, you break blocks from above, not below. The game flirts with directionality in other ways, too -- some levels scroll right-to-left, while others go top-to-bottom. This would usher in a more open era of 2D platformers.

[Stratos]

That is true about a lack of Goombas. Though there are a few in the game they seem to be different. Don't you not stomp on them normally to kill them? Rather odd.

[Sundoulos]

I've never thought about that before, either.  Since Goombas were originally supposed to be citizens of the Mushroom Kingdom that sided with King Koopa, it makes sense that there wouldn't be as many in Dinosaur Land.

I seem to remember reading something in an old Nintendo Power publication that Miyamoto had to scrap several power up ideas in SMB3 because of technical limitations.  One of the most odd was a Centaur power-up for Mario.  I have to wonder if the idea for an animal mount (Yoshi) was born out of that.  I'll try to find a source for that if I can.

[anand]

Did you guys read the Iwata Asks interview where Miyamoto basically acknowledged that, in a Mario game, the enemies are just flora and fauna that exist in the world and go about their business, and Mario just murders them for existing?

Metroid is a more obvious example, but Mario is definitely genocidal.

[adadad]

How about those bloody ghost houses?! Boring repetitive guessing game for the most part. The castles are plain annoying too. The wizards with their horrible random placement, ugh, especially towards the end of the game drove me crackers.

Genocidal sounds about right.

[noname2200]

Angelina Jolie would probably be a better example.

Good point: I was just going with the more recent example.

Started playing through this game again and I have to say I just find it boring so far. Clearly it's well designed and it ticks the boxes as a "Platform Jumper", but the gameplay style is not for me. I didn't find anything particularly notable about SMB3 either to be honest, although I do love SM64 and the original SMB and the sadistic japanese sequel.

I wonder if people's affection for this game is perhaps born out of nostalgia, or am I just being cynical? The exploration angle is fun at times - for example it is very satisfying to come across a secret exit - but to me SMW feels stale and far too familiar to hold my interest. Mario is a slippery chap who's easily hit and I find this encourages me to take it slowly and safely, which goes against my instinct to race through and puts a dampener on things. Can anyone tell me what is notable about this game to them? Despite never having played this when I was young I feel as though I've played it a million times before in knock offs and imitators.

I hope Yoshi's Island will come out on the VC eventually...

Nostalgia may play a role, of course, but I think that even without that you're probably in the extreme minority. World is a well-executed platformer with a good sense of balance: It offers a brisk challenge throughout, while almost never overwhelming the player. It has a near-perfect risk/reward system in place: if you want to play it conservatively, you can beat all the main levels quite easily, but if you want to get all those Yoshi coins and find those secret levels, you're going to have to push yourself a bit more to do it. In that regard, World gives you just as much as you're willing to put into it, and I really like that.

As for taking it slowly, it sounds like you're making the game less fun for yourself (the phrase about getting what you put into it applies here). Treat Mario like you do Luigi in the Lost Levels; he can't stop on a dime, so rather than trying to make complete stops, use whatever momentum you build up, take advantage of the fact that you can change direction mid-air, and above all spam the spin jump. If you have any reflexes to speak of, you'll blaze through most levels: honestly, I've always thought Mario in World was as fast as Sonic in Sonic 1 2 and 3, only with more responsive controls and with the added advantage that the camera actually let you see what was more than two feet ahead of you.

Anyhow, long story short, try a more aggressive playstyle. It will really change the game up for you, and after a few levels I think you'll find yourself liking it more.

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

- Cues to the previous games are shockingly few, especially in the early levels. You don't see Goombas or hear any recognizable Mario songs until deep into the game. Yoshi's Island 1 and 2 seem designed to hammer the point that this is a brand new world for Mario.

Personally, I feel that the inclusion of all these original enemy types was a design choice that very few Mario games has been able to replicate. Most other successors have used the enemies that debuted in the NES trilogy. I really like how Super Mario World introduced foes with more complex attacks and methods to defeating them. Even the familiar faces like Goombas and Koopas had changed unexpectedly.
When I consider all this, I'm really perplexed as to why so many of these enemies made this one-time appearance and then never showed up again. The one in particular I'm thinking of is Charging Chuck, the football player - he had several different forms & moves and was one of the more difficult foes to kill. So I wonder why he, and numerous others, didn't carry over to the following instalments.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I hated the goombas in SMW, they looked like walking apples. Terrible design.

With that said I played SMW a few years after it came out so I don't think my appreciation for the game is colored by nostalgia.

[Bboy]

Isn't the spin jump a shorter jump? If it isn't, then I've always made this game harder than it is.

Something that really pisses me off is that some of the secret exits are the real exits, and the straightforward path doesn't do anything.

[yoshi1001]

Isn't the spin jump a shorter jump? If it isn't, then I've always made this game harder than it is.

Something that really pisses me off is that some of the secret exits are the real exits, and the straightforward path doesn't do anything.

As I recall, there is no way to beat the game without finding at least two secret exits.

One choice I find interesting is that right from the start, the player is given a choice of what level to try first-Yoshi's Island 1 or 2. Virtually every other Mario game has one starting point, but this one has two.

I do have a problem with the cape, though. In the end, I think it's too good, allowing you to skip over virtually any open level easily. While limitless flight might be fun, it ultimately proves to be too powerful, allowing players to skip large portions of this game. By comparison, I think the carrot and fire flower in Super Mario Land 2 are much better balanced.

Also, scrolling does have a use-in some levels, you can use it to control when the Swoopers and Blarggs are triggered.

[Patchkid15]

I've been playing the game on my DS (via the GBA slot) and it is everything that i remembered it to be. Level design is fantastic, and small gimicks like multiple exits excites me. I am down to only about 10 levels to go and here are some of my quick thoughts.

Yoshi is actually really usefull and needed to get to some secret access areas, He may be hard to keep in those levels, but fun none the less.

I dont some of the secret areas... there is no way that people would know they existed sometimes. I know only from my childhood, and i dont even know how i figured them out back then. I just feel that they are added just to add them, Flying to the roof of the ghost house seems like something I would never do.


Other than that, it is a great game, that has lasted quite some time, and is still enjoyable to this day.

[noname2200]

Isn't the spin jump a shorter jump?

It is. That, and the fact that you can't keep flying with the spin jump were the two drawbacks. But note that the spin jump is only a little bit shorter than the normal one.

[Peachylala]

This discussion is awesome. Yet on the subject of castles, they didn't have the danger feeling that the Airships had in SMB3, but the traps more or less made up for it.

And to relive bad memories, anyone remember the DiC cartoon from the 90s? They completely ruined Yoshi, completely ruined him. =(

[vudu]

I hated the goombas in SMW, they looked like walking apples. Terrible design.

HOLY ****, THAT'S A GOOMBA?!

I For the past 18 years I honestly thought they were walking (and flying) apples.

I'm sitting here, reading through the threads saying to myself "where the Hell are these Goombas people keep talking about".  I had no idea they were in front of me the whole time.

My life has been turned upside down.

[Sundoulos]

First of all, kudos to the design team in Mario for going with a creative world design with unique area themes...instead of having the generic water world, ice world, desert world...etc.
I've never thought about it before, but it's not normal for a Mario game to have an entire world set in a forest.  It's one of my favorite sections, thoguh

The person upthread who said that the graphics and music suffered a little in the transition to a GBA cart wasn't kidding.  I haven't noticed a huge change in the graphics, but the music that is so great on the SNES version suffers greatly.  I do like that they give the player the option to play as Mario and Luigi, though, even if Luigi has sort of wonky controls.

This game, along with SMB3, are two of my favorite childhood memories.  I was one of those kids who would beg my parents to take me to Toys'R'Us just so that I could play SMW on the demo kiosk that was there.  During those few weeks before the SNES came out, there was always a line there.  Mario Madness was in full swing.

At the time, I was amazed by the music and the graphics effects of the game.  In particular, the Ghost houses (with the transparency tricks for the clouds and ghosts) really stood out at the time.  I don't think that anything quite like it had been done on a console up to that point. 

It's perhaps inevitable that this game is compared to SMB3 since they share so many elements and gameplay features.  While I prefer all the cool power-ups that SMB3 had to offer and some of the cool settings like the airships, I've always found this game to be easier to pick up and play.  I think it comes down to the feeling of freedom, speed and control that the I get when playing this game.  I've always loved that you can kick shells up in the air.  I like all of the new attacks that Mario has (the ground-pound with the cape, punching through the fence, etc., Yoshi shell power-ups).  Also, in general, SMW just feels faster than SMB3.  Mario accelerates more quickly, and, and it's easier to change directions in mid-jump. 

[MegaByte]

Super Mario World is definitely my favorite of the 2-D Mario platformers.  The primary reason is its secrets.  No other Mario game has had to many secret exits and such a non-linear world.  Sure other games have lots of items, but it's not about items, it's about finding new places to explore and not being forced down a one-way street.  No other 2-D Mario game (except for SML2, which was somewhat based on SMW) has contained such a magnitude of these elements, and thus none have matched SMW's brilliance.  Additionally, SMW was the first to introduce elements that can actually change other levels, such as the Switch Blocks, and the only one to include an evolution of the overworld landscape itself.  SMW was a game that had a perfect balance of exploration while still retaining the classic Mario platforming feeling where you knew you were going for the goal posts at the end.  SMW was a magical introduction to the SNES just as SMB was to the NES.

The debate between SMB3 and SMW is endless, but for me SMW is the epitome of the series.  Sure, the suits were cool in SMB3, but SMW distilled Mario's powers down to the essentials while giving him new physical tricks like the upward throw, and of course, the addition of Yoshi was a game-changer.  SMW's base was SMB3, as proven by early versions of the game, but the expansive and colorful environments really made a difference.  The sheer number of ROM hacks for the game show just how great of a game engine the game had.  On the negative side, SMW did seem to lose some environment diversity, and it was the first Mario game to include several music tracks based on the same tune, though the music itself was good and the presence of Yoshi adding a drum track was genius.

I have a lot of fond memories of SMW, even before the game came out.  When I was younger, I always got consoles several years after their release.  I didn't get a Super Nintendo until about 1995; my parents bought me a TurboGrafx-16 for Christmas because it was cheaper.  But I remember seeing Super Mario World featured on GamePro back when they had a Saturday morning TV show.  They showed how to get to Special World.  In 1994, I was able to play my uncle's SNES when we were visiting my grandfather.  I remembered the steps to finding Special World, managed to complete them and spent that vacation navigating my way through its brutal courses.

Nintendo Power's SMW Player's Guide, Mario Mania, was probably their greatest effort.  Not only did it lay out all 74 levels and 96 exits in the game, it also gave a history of Mario that was relatively unknown at that time, and even included statistics like number of blocks that Mario can jump in each game, depending on whether he's running, etc.  It was that kind of detail that really showed dedication, a kind that is hard to find now.

[Dasmos]

I think SMB3 and SMW are definetly designed to fit the gaming population at the time in regards to the secrets exits and items etc. Because there wasn't any Internet or a wide variety of publications or anything exposing these secrets anything you learnt had to be discovered or learnt through word of mouth. Countless times I can remember friends pointing things out or suggesting a better way to go through the level when paying these games. And I was ecstatic when I thought I found a secret exit or a a superior tactic, because it meant I could tell my friends and get it out there.

SMB had this to a degree, but it was more glitches found than secrets.

[Nick DiMola]

The Super Mario World vs. Super Mario Bros. 3 debate in my opinion strongly parallels the Super Mario 64 vs. Super Mario Galaxy debate. Super Mario World and Super Mario 64 are strongly rooted in exploration whereas both Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario Galaxy are about the varied levels and the experience of getting from the start of the level to the end.

I stand firmly on the exploration side, as Super Mario World and Super Mario 64 (and Sunshine) are my favorites in the series. The series really hit stride for me when it started focusing on these elements. That linear style will always be great, but exploring every nook and cranny is just more satisfying for me.

[Peachylala]

I hated the goombas in SMW, they looked like walking apples. Terrible design.

HOLY ****, THAT'S A GOOMBA?!

I For the past 18 years I honestly thought they were walking (and flying) apples.

I'm sitting here, reading through the threads saying to myself "where the Hell are these Goombas people keep talking about".  I had no idea they were in front of me the whole time.

My life has been turned upside down.

I absolutely hated the Goomba design in SMW. HATED. IT.

Agreed with GP. They looked like turd apples. Seriously.

[MegaByte]

The Super Mario World vs. Super Mario Bros. 3 debate in my opinion strongly parallels the Super Mario 64 vs. Super Mario Galaxy debate. Super Mario World and Super Mario 64 are strongly rooted in exploration whereas both Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario Galaxy are about the varied levels and the experience of getting from the start of the level to the end.

I stand firmly on the exploration side, as Super Mario World and Super Mario 64 (and Sunshine) are my favorites in the series. The series really hit stride for me when it started focusing on these elements. That linear style will always be great, but exploring every nook and cranny is just more satisfying for me.

That's an interesting distinction.  I actually don't like SM64 that much and like SMG because it is more directed.  But I like SMW more than SMB3.  The difference, I feel, is that SMW was able to pull off having exploration while still having an end-level goal.  It did this primarily by having multiple goals, which still made the game primarily about platforming, which SM64 wasn't.

[Stratos]

I still have that Mario Mania players guide, MegaByte. It was how I finally figured out the Cheese Bridge secret exit that had been a thorn in my back for a long while.

[Nick DiMola]

The person upthread who said that the graphics and music suffered a little in the transition to a GBA cart wasn't kidding.  I haven't noticed a huge change in the graphics, but the music that is so great on the SNES version suffers greatly.  I do like that they give the player the option to play as Mario and Luigi, though, even if Luigi has sort of wonky controls.

The GBA version is also easier. In the SNES version if you have a power-up, let's say the cape, and you get hit, you turn into small Mario, no downward progression into normal big Mario first. The GBA version brings back that more typical hit progression, as seen in most other Mario games.

I'm not certain of this, but I also think that managing your extra box is harder in the SNES version too. If you pick up a Mushroom and you have a Flower or Feather in there, it'll replace it. For some reason I don't seem to remember that happening in the GBA version. I think it gives you the points for the Mushroom and then essentially throws the power-up away.

[noname2200]

The focus on the power-ups in SMB3 vs. those in World make me want to clarify myself a bit. While the power-ups are damned cool in and of themselves, I bring them up because they're emblematic of something that the prior Mario games had in greater quantities than World does. The prior ones just generally feel more whimsical than World does, and that's something that I still look for in my Mario games.

 Again, I actually think the cape is a better power-up from a gameplay perspective than most of those that preceded it, but it doesn't feel as fresh, creative, or surprising as those which came before. That feeling stretches to the rest of the game: World is built better, but it lacks the sense of wonder that makes me prefer 3 in particular over this game.

This discussion is awesome. Yet on the subject of castles, they didn't have the danger feeling that the Airships had in SMB3, but the traps more or less made up for it.

This is true, but I think 90% of that is because the airships were (slowly) auto-scrolling, so you had to keep up a constant pace, but also one which forced you to stay in fire zones for much longer than you would want to. The fact that off-screen projectiles can come at any time only heighten this. By contrast, you get to control the pacing in World's fortresses, an added bit of control that makes the level feel less intimidating overall.

The other 10% comes from the less-dramatic music in World, and the fact that the fortresses are generally well-lit, while the airships are in a thunderstorm.

[TJ Spyke]

The Super Mario World vs. Super Mario Bros. 3 debate in my opinion strongly parallels the Super Mario 64 vs. Super Mario Galaxy debate. Super Mario World and Super Mario 64 are strongly rooted in exploration whereas both Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario Galaxy are about the varied levels and the experience of getting from the start of the level to the end.

With SMB 3 and SMW, there is a good debate. I'm not sure how anyone can claim Super Mario 64 is even close to being as good as Super Mario Galaxy is.

I didn't mind the Goomba design. Yeah it was weird, but I liked it. I would consider those to be a different variation of Goomba.

I thought the GBA version of the game was fine. Yes it was a little easier, but it was still a great game and that version was still one of the best 2D platformers. I was glad they fixed that earlier design of making you revert to small Mario no matter what. I thought it was stupid that you could have the cape but you would revert to small form if you got hit.

[Sundoulos]

I just remembered that you don't even get the feather (and cape) until after defeating Larry in the first castle.  I guess they wanted you to learn to use Yoshi in the first few sections before introducing the cape.  Or am I remembering this incorrectly? 

@noname: I love the music in SMW, but I do wish that most of the songs didn't use variations on the same melody.  I love the castle music, and the overworld music in the Forest of Illusion area. 

Since we're discussing power-ups, my biggest complaint about NSMB was the power ups they added.  As much as I liked the game, it doesn't hold a candle to the best of the Mario Series.  The Mega and mini mushroos were cool, but they both had a limited applications.  I hated the blue shell, but that may just have been because there were limited areas where you could use it without accidentally killing yourself.  It either needed a tune-up or a different trigger.

Here's what I'm worried about for NSMB Wii.  The levels in games like SMB3 and SMW have may hidden areas that could only be reached by flight or doing things like running up a wall.  The multiplayer aspect of the NSMB seems as if it would liimit the possiblity of level exploration, and thus dictate a dumbed down level design.  It would be difficult to have the wide open areas of SMW in a four player arena, at least without making your comrades drop off the screen.  It makes me sad to think that we might never again see a Mario game with the elegant level designs like in SMW.

Incidentally, NMSB Wii makes me fear for my marriage.  Based on past experiences with Lego Star Wars, I can imagine my wife and I getting in arguments over accidentally killing each other.   

[vudu]

I'm not certain of this, but I also think that managing your extra box is harder in the SNES version too. If you pick up a Mushroom and you have a Flower or Feather in there, it'll replace it. For some reason I don't seem to remember that happening in the GBA version. I think it gives you the points for the Mushroom and then essentially throws the power-up away.

This is untrue.  In the SNES version, if you pick up a mushroom when you already have a better power up in the item box all you'll get is 1,000 points.

[Stratos]

The focus on the power-ups in SMB3 vs. those in World make me want to clarify myself a bit. While the power-ups are damned cool in and of themselves, I bring them up because they're emblematic of something that the prior Mario games had in greater quantities than World does. The prior ones just generally feel more whimsical than World does, and that's something that I still look for in my Mario games.

 Again, I actually think the cape is a better power-up from a gameplay perspective than most of those that preceded it, but it doesn't feel as fresh, creative, or surprising as those which came before. That feeling stretches to the rest of the game: World is built better, but it lacks the sense of wonder that makes me prefer 3 in particular over this game.

I really think this is your nostalgia for the game kicking in. One is more whimsical than the other? Carrying out a spotted egg and TNTing a castle while the egg says "Thank you" seems fairly whimsical to me.

Also, SMB3 was a break from the mold in Mario games. Including both Mario Brothers Lost Levels and Super Mario Brothers 2 USA, there are not a whole lot of powerups in any of them. SMB3 was a drastic change in that department with the adding of a dozen powerups or so. Mario World was merely going back to the norm of the series in that regard.

[noname2200]

No, I don't think nostalgia is the issue: I've played both of them recently, and I was about the same age when I played them originally (remember, they came out about a year apart). I stand by my position; World has its moments (such as the massive Bullet Bills, or Bowser riding a giant flying clown car), but they are fewer and more far between than in 3 in particular. I don't want to reiterate my first post, but that post contains many examples to support my idea that 3 threw more way-out-there things at you than World does.

Again, the power-ups (not just the number, but the sheer out-of-left-field quality they had) are just one, most tangible and visible example of what I'm getting at.

[Sundoulos]

One thing that I did miss about SMB3, was the ever-present variations of the Hammer Bros., especially the seemingly random airship encounters.  You got the Boomerang Bros., Fire Bros., and the Sledge Hammer Brothers as well.

SMW did have the large Hammer Brothers on the platforms as well as weird Sumo Guys that shoot lightning.

[Nick DiMola]

The Super Mario World vs. Super Mario Bros. 3 debate in my opinion strongly parallels the Super Mario 64 vs. Super Mario Galaxy debate. Super Mario World and Super Mario 64 are strongly rooted in exploration whereas both Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario Galaxy are about the varied levels and the experience of getting from the start of the level to the end.

With SMB 3 and SMW, there is a good debate. I'm not sure how anyone can claim Super Mario 64 is even close to being as good as Super Mario Galaxy is.

Super Mario 64 is better, by a large magnitude at that. Galaxy was ok, but by no means all that great.

[GoldenPhoenix]

The Super Mario World vs. Super Mario Bros. 3 debate in my opinion strongly parallels the Super Mario 64 vs. Super Mario Galaxy debate. Super Mario World and Super Mario 64 are strongly rooted in exploration whereas both Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario Galaxy are about the varied levels and the experience of getting from the start of the level to the end.

With SMB 3 and SMW, there is a good debate. I'm not sure how anyone can claim Super Mario 64 is even close to being as good as Super Mario Galaxy is.

Super Mario 64 is better, by a large magnitude at that. Galaxy was ok, but by no means all that great.

SMS is better then both. Also I think SMG is better then SM64. So take that Mr. Pants!

One thing that I did miss about SMB3, was the ever-present variations of the Hammer Bros., especially the seemingly random airship encounters.  You got the Boomerang Bros., Fire Bros., and the Sledge Hammer Brothers as well.

SMW did have the large Hammer Brothers on the platforms as well as weird Sumo Guys that shoot lightning.

You are right, that is one thing that SMB3 had that was extremely unique with it, dangers present on the overworld itself. You had to plot your course accordingly to avoid stuff like the hammer bros (or you could just fight them), and even the last world has a really neat segment where you could be drug down into a level. Or in world 4 where the bridge opens and closes allowing you a shortcut.

[Nick DiMola]

SMS is better then both. Also I think SMG is better then SM64. So take that Mr. Pants!

Sunshine is most definitely better than both. Can't agree on the other, but that's a-ok.

[GoldenPhoenix]

SMS is better then both. Also I think SMG is better then SM64. So take that Mr. Pants!

Sunshine is most definitely better than both. Can't agree on the other, but that's a-ok.

Well at least you partially made up for it!

[TheYoungerPlumber]

The person upthread who said that the graphics and music suffered a little in the transition to a GBA cart wasn't kidding.  I haven't noticed a huge change in the graphics, but the music that is so great on the SNES version suffers greatly.  I do like that they give the player the option to play as Mario and Luigi, though, even if Luigi has sort of wonky controls.

The GBA version is also easier. In the SNES version if you have a power-up, let's say the cape, and you get hit, you turn into small Mario, no downward progression into normal big Mario first. The GBA version brings back that more typical hit progression, as seen in most other Mario games.

Ah, I had forgotten about this change. This is silly, since the game throws so many lives at you, and has a save-anywhere feature. Did it need to be even easier?

[Nick DiMola]

I'm not certain of this, but I also think that managing your extra box is harder in the SNES version too. If you pick up a Mushroom and you have a Flower or Feather in there, it'll replace it. For some reason I don't seem to remember that happening in the GBA version. I think it gives you the points for the Mushroom and then essentially throws the power-up away.

This is untrue.  In the SNES version, if you pick up a mushroom when you already have a better power up in the item box all you'll get is 1,000 points.

Just checked this out and I do believe my initial assumption is correct. I tried a few different scenarios and whether it was a flower or a feather in the box, it would replace it with a mushroom if I picked it up. It seems that I was wrong in assuming that the same didn't happen in the GBA version, though. Both versions behave the same in this case, the mushroom will replace the better power-up no matter what.

[Peachylala]

SMS is better then both. Also I think SMG is better then SM64. So take that Mr. Pants!

Sunshine is most definitely better than both. Can't agree on the other, but that's a-ok.

Well at least you partially made up for it!

To me, the 3-D Mario series goes like this in terms of quality.

Super Mario Galaxy
Super Mario Sunshine
Super Mario 64

Despite it's flaws, I think SMS is still a quality title despite having been rushed.

No, I don't think nostalgia is the issue: I've played both of them recently, and I was about the same age when I played them originally (remember, they came out about a year apart). I stand by my position; World has its moments (such as the massive Bullet Bills, or Bowser riding a giant flying clown car), but they are fewer and more far between than in 3 in particular. I don't want to reiterate my first post, but that post contains many examples to support my idea that 3 threw more way-out-there things at you than World does.

Again, the power-ups (not just the number, but the sheer out-of-left-field quality they had) are just one, most tangible and visible example of what I'm getting at.

The power ups in Super Mario 3 were plentiful, but the only ones that I found useful (and new to the game era wise) were the Leaf/Tanooki Suit/P-Wing and the Hammer Bros. suit. The rest just took up space, and were not really that useful except for the rare situations that may have popped up.

Also, SMW's world map is my favorite world map. It's landscape changed if you reached certain exits. I thought that was awesome.

[vudu]

Just checked this out and I do believe my initial assumption is correct. I tried a few different scenarios and whether it was a flower or a feather in the box, it would replace it with a mushroom if I picked it up. It seems that I was wrong in assuming that the same didn't happen in the GBA version, though. Both versions behave the same in this case, the mushroom will replace the better power-up no matter what.

Really?  Color me surprised.  I was so sure of myself ....

[Jonnyboy117]

I don't see much point in ranking Mario games. They're all great and all different, so I find it more interesting (and open-ended) to look at and celebrate their differences.

[Sundoulos]

Just checked this out and I do believe my initial assumption is correct. I tried a few different scenarios and whether it was a flower or a feather in the box, it would replace it with a mushroom if I picked it up. It seems that I was wrong in assuming that the same didn't happen in the GBA version, though. Both versions behave the same in this case, the mushroom will replace the better power-up no matter what.

Really?  Color me surprised.  I was so sure of myself ....

Yeah, after Mr. Jack said that, I tried it for myself as well.  The mushroom will replace the other power-ups.

[Stratos]

I don't see much point in ranking Mario games. They're all great and all different, so I find it more interesting (and open-ended) to look at and celebrate their differences.

Celebrate Diversity FTW 

In the Mario Universe, everybody is a winner!

Nice to hear some other voices stick up for Sunshine. It was a good game.

[TJ Spyke]

I love Super Mario Sunshine, but I still stand by Super Mario Galaxy as the best Mario game (at least the best 3D).

I still remember getting my SNES and playing Super Mario World for the first time. I had never seen a game look that good before. It was so bright and colorful, and I loved the music. I owned the SNES original, I bought the GBA re-make, and I bought the VC version. I am not ashamed to admit that I will probably buy it again in the future if/when Nintendo re-releases it again. The game is that damn good. Without getting into the stages, I loved the Forrest of Illusion. It was fun playing the levels over and over and seeing the trees disappear and be replaced by paths. I was also happy that Nintendo let you re-play any non-castle stage anytime you want. I know I am not the only one that loved the Top Secret Area. It was great being happy to make sure you were Caped Mario and had a spare Cape before every stage.

[King of Twitch]

This game is true Nintendo greatness. While it's obviously not as challenging as the first time played, it's still a fantastic platforming excursion with tons of smooth, fast paced hopping, bopping and flying to be had just by holding down the Y button through any given level.

It's got some amusing level names and unforgettable music; loveable enemies such as the flying koopa, volcano (??), charging football guy, and a sunglass-wearing mole (some of which as GoldenPhoenix noted, sadly haven't been seen since) and some of the best Nintendo characters ever: Yoshi and the ghosts.

The difficulty doesn't really pick up until right at Vanilla Lake: a cramped cave level with lots of shells flying around, a ghost house with green death balls (??), a level with lots of bouncy springboards and bullet bills flying in all directions, a ride on some skulls over an ocean of lava, and later on the moving platform stage with all the floating face-guys (??) (that later became Booster in SMRPG) and the saws. I've noticed the level time limit is pretty short.

Lots of ?? in this game because of a robust degree of wackiness.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I don't see much point in ranking Mario games. They're all great and all different, so I find it more interesting (and open-ended) to look at and celebrate their differences.

Celebrate Diversity FTW 

In the Mario Universe, everybody is a winner!

Nice to hear some other voices stick up for Sunshine. It was a good game.

I am the biggest Sunshine fine here probably. Love that game.

[Flames_of_chaos]

I still have the picture of me when I was 4 years old and proudly holding up the SNES bundle that had the system 2 controllers and Super Mario World. It's one of my most treasured games ever. Even though I was a little kid I completed the whole game even the awesome special worlds.

[Peachylala]

Sunshine still had a great deal of polish despite being rushed (I heard it's development time was about a year, split between two teams and so forth). It's too bad the GCN's dwindling sales forced Nintendo to do drastic things.

With the Wii, minus Zelda: Twilight Sell-Out, I've seen galaxy-size (pun) creativity from Nintendo's EAD studios with the Wii. Something which third parties are more or less NOT doing.

NSMBWii might even be greater then SMW... or not. It would still be good. NSMB DS was good, just a tad easy. So was Super Princess Peach.

Nintendo can make platformers work.

[Pandareus]

I thought this RetroActive would be a great excuse to finally work on having a file with all 96 exits on the VC. Naturally, no matter how meticulously I worked my way through each exit, I'm missing one and I have no idea which one I could possibly have overlooked.

Anyway, great game. And ridiculously challenging, when you reach the Special levels. You just don't get games in which you can die within 5 seconds of entering a level, anymore.

Some great enemies. Wriggler is probably the best enemy to originate from SMW. One thing, though: had the game come out after Jurassic Park, my young self would probably have felt pretty underwhelmed by Mario's trip to Dinosaur Land. Where are the T-rexes?The diplodocuses (doplidoci?)? Etc. Very few enemies are actually dinosaur-themed. There's Rex. There's that fire-breathing thingy on Chocolate Island... I think that's it.

And of course Yoshi looks nothing like a dinosaur. When I first saw what he turned into in the Super Mario Bros. Movie (someone had to bring that abomination up), I refused to believe it was him. It looked nothing like the cute green thing I knew from SMW.

Super Mario 64 is better, by a large magnitude at that. Galaxy was ok, but by no means all that great.

I am deeply offended.

[TJ Spyke]

Panareus, did you get that one exit on Chocolate Island that does nothing but loop back to itself? There is one level that if you beat it in a certain way, you get a path that has Mario walk in a circle right back to the same level. It's basically a waste, but I think it counts as an exit.

[King of Twitch]

Arg. The Forest of Illusion castle is tough. You'd think all those mushrooms floating around the FoI are signs of Nintendo being intentionally dense and stingy the way they are with hardware limitations and online options in real life, but you're going to want to backtrack for a mushroom there. They knew that having an extra feather would be useless for Roy's Castle since you would end up accidentally flying into the spikes.

With that said, they go totally overboard in the next level... giving you a screen full of mushrooms for no discernible reason 

Panareus, did you get that one exit on Chocolate Island that does nothing but loop back to itself? There is one level that if you beat it in a certain way, you get a path that has Mario walk in a circle right back to the same level. It's basically a waste, but I think it counts as an exit.

I'm at that one right now: Choco Island 3. The end of the level has two goalposts, one of which is 'underneath' the higher one that you need to fly over to.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

You might want to look into the Forest Ghost House, which has a secondary exit that double-backs on a road (a la the Star Road levels). I think that was the one that evaded me forever as a kid, because Ghost Houses don't disclose that they have two exits.

[Stratos]

Yoshi is actually supposed to be a Dragon. That's why the Yoshi coins are called 'Dragon Coins'. They changed it when it came to the West, though. Probably because market surveys showed kids liked Dinosaurs over Dragons here.

[anand]

I love Sunshine. It gets a lot of things wrong, but moving around in that game is such a joy that it was easily the best platformer of last gen for me. I love games with redundant move sets that allow for free, creative expression on the part of the gamer.

Delfino Plaza rules.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

Just a friendly reminder that this thread is about Super Mario World. TEST!

[TJ Spyke]

I miss the Chargin' Chucks, I wish Nintendo would bring them back for a future Mario game. To an earlier poster, I agree that Wigglers were one of the best enemies introduced in the game. The first time they turned red was cool.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I miss the Chargin' Chucks, I wish Nintendo would bring them back for a future Mario game. To an earlier poster, I agree that Wigglers were one of the best enemies introduced in the game. The first time they turned red was cool.

Wigglers were great. I loved them when you made them angry.

[adadad]

I think TYP was probably referring to me on the podcast when he said that racing through the game is not the way to play it and that perhaps this game wasn't for me. Certainly my feelings were confirmed last night when I started playing the Lost Levels and absolutely loved the simplicity and challenge of it. The screen never scrolls up or down so there's never any ambiguity about what the player could be missing above or below (the exception being vines that take you up, but these bonus segments are wholly unavailable without the necessary block breakage down below!). There are far more possibilities in SMW, with far greater variance in how high and far Mario can jump and other additional abilities. This added depth doesn't appeal to me.

Now as many people have pointed out, broadly speaking you have the more linear driven games - SMB1-3, and Galaxy, which retreads this route a lot too - and the not so linear, e.g. SMW, SM64, Sunshine - but a key distinguishing factor between members of the same group is of course, an extra dimension.

For me SMW doesn't work simply because of the limits of 2D. The unforgiving nature of exploring - not being able to see what it is below you is often a frustrating experience which has lead to many a death on my part - especially when a great number of the bonuses are high up, above the regular stage. The short supply of health and more pertinently, power-ups like the cape makes exploration an experience that requires a lot of patience. This is not to say that I don't like SMW, it is a decent game and I did play all the way through, and got most of the way into the Special Levels, which I must say, along with Star Road is an extremely enticing prospect for budding players - not just one, but two secret worlds. Regardless those special levels can be infuriatingly difficult and I still haven't beaten them all. This is pure preference, however even these levels, being far more restricted and aimed at pure platforming, aren't anywhere near as tight as I would like due to Mario's slippery footwork and physics.

Another annoyance, and this is also present in Donkey Kong Country 2, is that going back to levels you've already done to quickly grab something and then exiting out with select is such a chore. In DKC2 it was to nab coins with which to save or hop on an aeroplane between worlds, and in SMW it's to grab a cape or Yoshi, and preferably a backup item in the box too, in order to protect yourself to get past a difficult level.

Back on point, I realise now that this was a highly ambitious game at the time, moreso than I had previously given it credit for, and yet for me SM64 represents the realisation of the ambition SMW aspired to, which was to have a exploratory, more adventure-y platformer with the key principle of multiple secret 'exits', which SM64 evolved into a series of different goals, all within the same (albeit dynamic) stage. Fortunately in 3D the levels go from being something you run into blindly sideways to being literally in front of you. There's also the advent of a health bar and losing health never limits Mario's physical ability, so it's far more accessible in that sense.

Anyway I had to get this off my chest as it goes some way to explaining my lack of enjoyment from this game. Oh yeah and the music is by far and away the worst in the entire Mario series, which doesn't help proceedings either! This is a long way from a bad game though, don't get me wrong.

[NWR_Neal]

I still need to sit down and play this. I have been a busy reviewer and thus have not been able to put too much time into RetroActive since Super Ghouls N Ghosts.

I always loved this game. I never owned a SNES until five or so years ago, so most of my time with this game was over my friends' houses.

Yoshi is a game changer and really makes this game a whole different beast when compared to SMB3, which is generally my favorite in the series. There's just something about the way Yoshi mixes up the game that makes the old feel new again.

The Star Road (I think that's what it was called here) is awesome and trippy. Some of my favorite levels of Mario are encased there.

I always stock up on lives in that first Forest of Illusion level where you can get something like 10 lives in one go if I recall correctly.

I'm a huge Koopa Kids fan, and this was their last game appearance for about 10 years. I liked the little things like how Ludwig would get knocked out of his castle.

And I love the final boss. Clown Car Bowser needs to make a comeback (has he? I feel like he has recently, like in a sports game or something)

I'll probably add more after I play the game again.

[Peachylala]

For those of you who thought the item collecting for SMW was a bit frustrating, there is a secret area in Donut Land that has unlimited supplies of Cape Feathers, Yoshi, and Fire Flowers. Go there, and the rest of the game is cake.

Except if you don't like backtracking.

I'm a huge Koopa Kids fan, and this was their last game appearance for about 10 years. I liked the little things like how Ludwig would get knocked out of his castle.

The castle destruction scenes were AWESOME. Intentional comedy in a 16-bit game rocked, and it rocked even more when Mario was in it.

See? Mario makes everything better. (sports, comedy, RPGs)

[Mop it up]

There's been way too many posts in here for me to catch up on all of this. I'm sure I couldn't say anything that's already been said anyway.

This game still has the best design for Yoshi. He looked a lot more like a dinosaur back then (I know he's technically a dragon but I think he resembles a dinosaur a lot more). When they gave him the more upright stance and more rounded body, he lost a lot of what made him adorable. Giving him a voice was also a mistake; it must be what, a whole octave above what can be heard by a human? It's way too high-pitched and squeaky, like he's trying too hard to be cute. I've always thought he should have remained a silent character, with those big black eyes I'll bet he could be really expressive without a voice.

I'm surprised there's been so much activity, I didn't expect this to be so popular. I guess you all either haven't played or discussed this game as much as I have.

See? Mario makes everything better. (sports, comedy, RPGs)

Finally somebody gets it.

And I love the final boss. Clown Car Bowser needs to make a comeback (has he? I feel like he has recently, like in a sports game or something)

That was in Paper Mario I believe.

I miss the Chargin' Chucks, I wish Nintendo would bring them back for a future Mario game.

Yeah, they were such a random inclusion but still great. I especially like how some of them throw baseballs. Why does a football player have baseballs?

[kraken613]

Sorry if this was brought up but in the podcast there was lots of discussion on how this game was so much different because it was so close to SMB3 and tried to go different directions. What are your thoughts on this with comparing Galaxy and what you think they will do with Galaxy 2?

[Stratos]

Sorry if this was brought up but in the podcast there was lots of discussion on how this game was so much different because it was so close to SMB3 and tried to go different directions. What are your thoughts on this with comparing Galaxy and what you think they will do with Galaxy 2?

Well, didn't Miyamoto say that somewhere around 90% of Galaxy 2 would be new ground? I know that's just words, but maybe there is a chance Galaxy 2 will pull a Mario World 180. Though I think that Galaxy 1 & 2 have a longer gap than SMB3 & World had going.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Sorry if this was brought up but in the podcast there was lots of discussion on how this game was so much different because it was so close to SMB3 and tried to go different directions. What are your thoughts on this with comparing Galaxy and what you think they will do with Galaxy 2?

Well, didn't Miyamoto say that somewhere around 90% of Galaxy 2 would be new ground? I know that's just words, but maybe there is a chance Galaxy 2 will pull a Mario World 180. Though I think that Galaxy 1 & 2 have a longer gap than SMB3 & World had going.

The trouble with what Miyamoto said is that we really do not know what he meant by the 90% new. As I've learned, things work differently in the head of the mad genius, Shigeru Miyamoto

[Stratos]

Sorry if this was brought up but in the podcast there was lots of discussion on how this game was so much different because it was so close to SMB3 and tried to go different directions. What are your thoughts on this with comparing Galaxy and what you think they will do with Galaxy 2?

Well, didn't Miyamoto say that somewhere around 90% of Galaxy 2 would be new ground? I know that's just words, but maybe there is a chance Galaxy 2 will pull a Mario World 180. Though I think that Galaxy 1 & 2 have a longer gap than SMB3 & World had going.

The trouble with what Miyamoto said is that we really do not know what he meant by the 90% new. As I've learned, things work differently in the head of the mad genius, Shigeru Miyamoto

Yeah, I know they are just words, but still, it does pique one's curiosity.

[anand]

Yay, podcast name-check. Just to clarify what I meant before, I meant mainly that SMB3 has a real purity and focus on 'use your limited set of primary tools to get to the end of the varied, obstacle-filled level'. SMW is a much looser design (probably BY design). As has been said before, it was more about exploration and discovery, finding secrets. The actual platforming itself was much less rigorous, challenging, and focused (especially with core additions such as the Cape and Spin Jump, which added a bit of slop to your primary tools). As such, you could say that it was a sort of precursor to SM64 and Sunshine's more Adventure-y design.

I contradicted myself when I spoke about Sunshine, since I enjoyed the numerous redundant methods of movement in that game. I guess the difference is the context. I never saw Sunshine as a game about 'getting to the end of the level' a la SMB3 and Galaxy. I saw it more as 'have fun screwing around in a large, virtual playground', even moreso than SM64. I mean, there are so many advanced mobility techniques in that game (like slipping and sliding, spinning around a tightrope with the jetpack, wall jumping into a spin jump into a hover), and so few places where those techniques are actually REQUIRED. That's the thing about the Spin Jump. Nintendo put it in, to the point of assigning it its own button, but they didn't weave it into the strategy of the levels too much (sort of like the Wall Jump in NSMB).

Didn't someone actually make a 2D Sunshine homage? I can't remember where I played it...

The extent to which Mario nostalgia inspires people is pretty crazy, though, from the countless clones to the Flipbook animations to the SMW level creator that people use for those crazy, auto-playing SMW levels on Youtube.

Have those been brought up in this thread yet? They seem to be based on the SMW engine.

[Mop it up]

That's the thing about the Spin Jump. Nintendo put it in, to the point of assigning it its own button, but they didn't weave it into the strategy of the levels too much (sort of like the Wall Jump in NSMB).

I think the spin-jump should have been a power-up. It would have made things more interesting with the levels that have secrets which require the spin jump because you'd have to try and keep it throughout the level.

[gojira]

For those of you who thought the item collecting for SMW was a bit frustrating, there is a secret area in Donut Land that has unlimited supplies of Cape Feathers, Yoshi, and Fire Flowers. Go there, and the rest of the game is cake.

My sister used to farm that level for extra guys all the time.  It was so annoying. 

[kraken613]

If Rock Band was giving up points I would have this....

I went through my game collection and I didn't have it for SNES. I am now on a quest to find a copy. (Well that took me like 5 minutes to find and order.... got it for $4 from one of the sellers I regularly buy NES and SNES games from.)

[TheYoungerPlumber]

For those of you who thought the item collecting for SMW was a bit frustrating, there is a secret area in Donut Land that has unlimited supplies of Cape Feathers, Yoshi, and Fire Flowers. Go there, and the rest of the game is cake.

My sister used to farm that level for extra guys all the time.  It was so annoying. 

Yes, that is annoying. Especially considering there are several levels where you can stock up on lives.

[TJ Spyke]

But Top Secret Area also lets you get Yoshi. Lives don't matter much, but Top Secret Area is usually the fastest way to get a blue Yoshi.

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

On the topic of stockpiling lives, I seem to recall Vanilla Secret 3 having an insane trick where you would carry a P-Switch at the middle of the level back to the beginning where all the Koopa Paratroopas are, then step on the switch and collect all the coins for a huge multiplier which soon starts giving 5-Ups at a time. It's weird that they even included these extra methods when you essentially gain 8-Ups every four levels, if you earn 30 star points at each level's end and play the easy bonus game.

Anyway, I'm currently at Choco Island 2, I think, or somewhere around there. The game has been a relative breeze in terms of difficulty thus far. I don't remember it being like that when I was younger though; I guess that with age comes experience, which probably applies to a lot of you replaying again now.

The sole factor that has caused my death several times is, strangely enough, Yoshi. Having invested a lot of time in Yoshi's Island & Yoshi's Island DS since my prior playthrough of Super Mario World, it has been quite disorienting to control a Yoshi with regressed capabilities. The lack of the ability to stick out his tongue upwards has caught me off guard at quite a few instances. In addition, the missing Flutter Jump has resulted in a number of deaths that could have easily been avoided if my perception of how Yoshi should play hadn't been altered so greatly by later titles. It just feels alien to me that he is unable to perform these actions. Has anyone else experienced this?

[Mop it up]

You shouldn't ever need the huge amount of extra lives they throw at you. This game is not difficult.

But Top Secret Area also lets you get Yoshi. Lives don't matter much, but Top Secret Area is usually the fastest way to get a blue Yoshi.

How is that? I thought you just got a green one from the box.

[Pandareus]

Random observation: When you reach the exit holding a red shell, it transforms into a mushroom. If you're holding a blue shell, it transforms into a feather.

I haven't experimented with more colors.

[TJ Spyke]

You shouldn't ever need the huge amount of extra lives they throw at you. This game is not difficult.

But Top Secret Area also lets you get Yoshi. Lives don't matter much, but Top Secret Area is usually the fastest way to get a blue Yoshi.

How is that? I thought you just got a green one from the box.

If you are Caped Mario and have a Feather in your item box, you will get a blue Yoshi. If you are Fire Mario, you will get a red Yoshi.

[Sundoulos]

You shouldn't ever need the huge amount of extra lives they throw at you. This game is not difficult.

Once they introduced a save anywhere feature into games, 1-ups became nearly meaningless anyway.  I think they're still included just because it's fun to find ways to acquire them.

Playing this reminds me of how jazzed I am that the Koopalings are coming back.   I wonder if Bowser Jr. is going to be in the game as well?

[anand]

Yeah, a ton of people complained about the lives in games like Super Mario Galaxy, but who cares? It doesn't really detract from the game, and green mushrooms will always be a source of joy.

I wish more games still used scoring systems, though. Nintendo seems to have really shied away from that (perhaps to discourage competitive play?), unfortunately. Galaxy saves your Star Bits collected, when it should really be more of a time-based thing. Fans have WILLED scoring into the Metroid series, and Zelda has probably never had it (except for Link's Crossbow - don't miss!). Yoshi's Story had a robust scoring system, but the widespread hate towards that game probably didn't do much to encourage Nintendo to keep going down that path...

A lot of XBLA games really prioritize scoring and leaderboards, but that's where the 'arcade' comes from, I guess.

[MegaByte]

You shouldn't ever need the huge amount of extra lives they throw at you. This game is not difficult.

But Top Secret Area also lets you get Yoshi. Lives don't matter much, but Top Secret Area is usually the fastest way to get a blue Yoshi.

How is that? I thought you just got a green one from the box.

If you are Caped Mario and have a Feather in your item box, you will get a blue Yoshi. If you are Fire Mario, you will get a red Yoshi.

Only in the GBA version.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

Wow, I never discovered that--probably because I very rarely visit the Top Secret Area these days. Seems like a horrid tweak that belittles the Star Road levels. You gotta at least work a LITTLE for your special Yoshis!

[gojira]

Wow, I never discovered that--probably because I very rarely visit the Top Secret Area these days. Seems like a horrid tweak that belittles the Star Road levels. You gotta at least work a LITTLE for your special Yoshis!

I also don't like now the GBA version is a bit easier.  In the original version you always go to small Mario when you get damaged.  If you have a cape or fire power in the GBA version you lose it but stay as big Mario.  So if you have cape and have a feather in the item box and you get hit you can use that feather from the item box you automatically get a mushroom in the box.  So by not going to small Mario, you will likely have two extra hits before dying.

[Mop it up]

The sole factor that has caused my death several times is, strangely enough, Yoshi. Having invested a lot of time in Yoshi's Island & Yoshi's Island DS since my prior playthrough of Super Mario World, it has been quite disorienting to control a Yoshi with regressed capabilities. Has anyone else experienced this?

Not exactly that, but something similar. After all of my years of playing Super Smash Brothers, I sometimes forget that Mario doesn't have a second, mid-air jump in this game.

[noname2200]

I finally had the chance to give the podcast a listen (it's been a crazy week). I think James and TYP pretty much understood what I was getting at. Greg's comment about the Star Road and Special World in particular encapsulate my meaning...although for Greg's sake I'm glad Johnny didn't read the part about how I treat Yoshi! I do have one addendum though: I forgot about New Super Mario Bros. (a bad sign in and of itself); World has that game beat in almost every way.

I hadn't seriously considered WHY World has that sense of continuity, but I think you guys nailed it when you pointed to the then-new save feature (and it's that type of insight that keeps me listening). The ability to take your time and come back to the game at your leisure also really helps the exploration aspect, since you're able to replay the red levels a dozen times to find the secret exit, safe in the knowledge that investing an hour into a single level won't stop you from beating the game later.

In terms of gameplay, I actually favor this type of play over the more arcade-style NES Marios, even if I miss the greater challenge that comes from that earlier style (and, I maintain, the greater imagination that went into the other Mario games, before and since). There is a strange trade-off, though, since I think that making exploration the hook can make the initial play longer and more satisfying, while simultaneously dampening replay value: I like the 3D Marios (where the focus is almost entirely on the type of exploration and discover that World created) more than the 2D ones, but I find that I can play all three of the NES more often without tiring of them. Am I the only one who feels that way?

[TJ Spyke]

They covered it in the podcast already? I really should listen, I have a HUGE backlog of podcasts though (22 days, 9 hours, 45 minutes, 31 seconds),

[MegaByte]

Wow, I never discovered that--probably because I very rarely visit the Top Secret Area these days. Seems like a horrid tweak that belittles the Star Road levels. You gotta at least work a LITTLE for your special Yoshis!

I also don't like now the GBA version is a bit easier.  In the original version you always go to small Mario when you get damaged.  If you have a cape or fire power in the GBA version you lose it but stay as big Mario.  So if you have cape and have a feather in the item box and you get hit you can use that feather from the item box you automatically get a mushroom in the box.  So by not going to small Mario, you will likely have two extra hits before dying.

In SMB3, you would become small Mario when hit in the Japanese version, but the intermediate step was added for the US release.  And then they went and made the game even easier for the GBA release.

[D_Average]

God I love the music in this game!  Completely forgot how great it really was.