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Episode 431: NOT TAKE MIRROR!

by James Jones, Jon Lindemann, Jonathan Metts, and Guillaume Veillette - June 1, 2015, 12:09 am PDT
Total comments: 26

The live event is over, but the recording is now one of our biggest episodes ever!

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We decided to do this entire episode as a live event -- special thanks to everyone who could join for that, by the way! It has all the segments and features you'd expect, but all performed live. You'll also hear our special 8-bit theme song by Perry Burkum, now in higher quality! We hope to keep using this version hereafter for all RetroActive features.

New Business includes fresh impressions (our first in two weeks) of Stretchmo, Sonic Boom, Grand Theft Auto 5, and oh yes, Splatoon! After an awkward Now Playing promo (sadly, in prose), we return for the main event. This RetroActive turns out to be one of our best ever, with tremendous participation in the forum thread and a few questions from the live event audience as well. All four of the RFN guys played a whole lot of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (all for at least the second time through), and it proves to be a very rich topic indeed. It's probably impossible to discuss every single aspect of this long and complex game, but we covered a lot of bases in a roundtable that itself lasted over two hours!

We're planning for annual E3 predictions next week, and there may be time for Listener Mail too, so ask us about Chibi-Robo or tell us your story from the Nintendo World Championship qualifiers -- your path to become part of the podcast is right here. Also, don't forget to keep up with those darned Famicast guys over in their own podcast page, where you can find every episode from Japan and subscribe to get new ones every two weeks!

This episode was edited by Jonathan Metts. Now Playing was produced by Jon Lindemann. The "Jump Men of Leisure" retro version of our theme song was produced exclusively for Radio Free Nintendo by Perry Burkum. Hear more at Bluffs Custom Music.

Talkback

EnnerJune 01, 2015

Oh boy! Buckling down to listen for the long haul. I do have some inventory boxes to clean up in Monster Hunter 4U.

Passing question - 24 mins into the podcast, Jonny wonders if Sonic Boom's failure will make Sega pull back on the "bad" sonic games and reconsider releasing garbage.

....I distinctly remember articles a year or so back where Sega more or less exclaimed they would be working to no longer release "bad" Sonic games, taking such measures as even pulling retail copies of ones considered more offensive than others (Unleashed, Black Knight, Secret Rings).  The sonic cycle exists for a reason, but maybe if this one sold as badly as RFN says, this'll actually cause Sega to recoil.

I'd be more curious to hear how the Sonic Boom cartoon is going, that may dictate more than anything if there's another Sonic Boom game.

TOPHATANT123June 01, 2015

Quote from: lolmonade

Passing question - 24 mins into the podcast, Jonny wonders if Sonic Boom's failure will make Sega pull back on the "bad" sonic games and reconsider releasing garbage.

....I distinctly remember articles a year or so back where Sega more or less exclaimed they would be working to no longer release "bad" Sonic games, taking such measures as even pulling retail copies of ones considered more offensive than others (Unleashed, Black Knight, Secret Rings).  The sonic cycle exists for a reason, but maybe if this one sold as badly as RFN says, this'll actually cause Sega to recoil.

I'd be more curious to hear how the Sonic Boom cartoon is going, that may dictate more than anything if there's another Sonic Boom game.

According to Sega's financials Sonic Boom for 3ds and Wii U (somehow) shipped 490,000 copies. For two games with zero redeeming qualities that's rather good considering it will most likely have outsold some 1st party games like The Wonderful 101 and Wii Fit U.

Quote from: TOPHATANT123

Quote from: lolmonade

Passing question - 24 mins into the podcast, Jonny wonders if Sonic Boom's failure will make Sega pull back on the "bad" sonic games and reconsider releasing garbage.

....I distinctly remember articles a year or so back where Sega more or less exclaimed they would be working to no longer release "bad" Sonic games, taking such measures as even pulling retail copies of ones considered more offensive than others (Unleashed, Black Knight, Secret Rings).  The sonic cycle exists for a reason, but maybe if this one sold as badly as RFN says, this'll actually cause Sega to recoil.

I'd be more curious to hear how the Sonic Boom cartoon is going, that may dictate more than anything if there's another Sonic Boom game.

According to Sega's financials Sonic Boom for 3ds and Wii U (somehow) shipped 490,000 copies. For two games with zero redeeming qualities that's rather good considering it will most likely have outsold some 1st party games like The Wonderful 101 and Wii Fit U.

I'd personally be more interested in their sales vs forecast than comparing sales to how much garbage it is.  That'll be the driver of whether or not they see sales as a success.  that's also copies shipped to retail, NOT copies sold to end-customers, which is an important distinction sometimes.

Evan_BJune 01, 2015

Thank you guys so much for the comprehensive look at Twilight Princess. This is from a time when I was still very much a lover of video games, and it holds a very dear place in my heart.

I actually own only the Gamecube version of this game, though I played it on my Wii. A few months after Christmas, my father walked it and commented that he forgot to wrap a game up as a gift, and handed me this title. It was something I had been interested in, but I had been swept up with the hype of the Wii and forgotten about it. So I plugged in my controller and started playing.

I know I'm going to sound extremely childish here, but this was the first console Zelda I ever finished. I had rentd Wind Waker at one point a few years prior and loved it, but never completed it. My first home console was a GameCube, and I had seen others play Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. The only other Zelda I had beaten to completion before this game was Minish Cap, if you can believe it. So this title holds a great deal of sentimentality to me. It was the first game of its scale that I had ever seen all the way through, and its emphasis on story and emotion blew me away. This was the second time I ever found myself overcome with emotion while playing a game, and sure, I was younger at the time but that was the magic of video games that has always struck a chord with me ever since then.

Guillame's comments about the way many games pad out their content with material is very apt, but I think Twilight Princess at least does a better job with it because it all feels like unique content that utilizes your inventory in interesting ways. The escort segment where you can extinguish the wagon's flames with the gale boomerang, the infamous but still kinda fun Dominion Rod stuff... that was all interesting and rewarding to me. Looking back on Twilight Princess, I can't help but agree with Lindy: it has very evident flaws, but I can't help but love it. Despite its imperfections, it's another fine entry in the franchise, and most certainly has some of the best dungeons in the series.

It made me love video games. And I eagerly await Zelda Wii U, which will probably do the exact same thing. Which I really need right now, because as you can probably tell by my signature...

PlugabugzJune 01, 2015

Is this on the RSS feed yet? Nothing is coming up...

Yes, but a glitch in the initial update last night may be tripping up your feed reader. Force a refresh if you can; I'll try updating the LastBuilt tag later tonight, as well. Some podcast programs/apps are more tolerant to these things than others, which is why you see varying success.

Leo13June 01, 2015

How could you do that to me? I've been anxiously waiting to hear James'opinion on codename steam. You mentioned it, got me all excited, and then you said next week.

That was a miscommunication in show prep, actually. I thought James had more to say about CNS, but when I cued to him, it turned out that he didn't really feel ready to discuss it. Plus, a very casual mention of Sonic Boom turned into an actual riff session that I thought worked really well as a live show accident. I wouldn't have wanted to rush James into addressing a game like S.T.E.A.M. in just two minutes. We'll give it proper time as soon as he is ready!

PlugabugzJune 01, 2015

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

Yes, but a glitch in the initial update last night may be tripping up your feed reader. Force a refresh if you can; I'll try updating the LastBuilt tag later tonight, as well. Some podcast programs/apps are more tolerant to these things than others, which is why you see varying success.

It was a snafu on my side - my iPhone just ignored the wifi completely so when i tried to refresh it couldn't find anything. Quick airplane mode off/on and it behaved fine after that.

KobeskillzJune 02, 2015

I started listening today and so far is a great episode! Makes my drive to work so much better.

I again have to defend Splatoon a little here.

A lot of reviews have focused on the lack of content but I would argue that the content is in line with other games and more and more content will get added starting today I believe.

I finished Batman city, Transformers and Bioshock Infinity lately and those games were all about 6-10 hours long with some online and DLC to pad it out.

Splatoon single player and challenges are around that long and I’ve already put in a good 10+ hours in the multiplayer alone with more content added FREE later.

Sooo while the game may seem spares it’s really not far off from other games that are critically acclaimed and don’t get citizen for their lack of content.

If you buy this game and don’t plan to play the online then I could see the argument being made for sure

eggface123June 02, 2015

Please GOD! DO NOT DO A FREESTYLE RAP BATTLE! The MC Silky shit horrible and little bit racist dont you think?

KobeskillzJune 02, 2015

Quote from: eggface123

Please GOD! DO NOT DO A FREESTYLE RAP BATTLE! The MC Silky **** horrible and little bit racist dont you think?

Racist? Are you serious? come on now.

KobeskillzJune 02, 2015

I agree that kid Icarus had great voice acting. The conversations between him and the princess were very entertaining.

Also regarding Zelda getting a ten then later thinking differently I've noticed that about a lot of zeldas. Ign game skyward sword a 10 and I've heard the ign crew say later that they wouldn't have given it a ten. For some reason after some time people change their opinion.

eggface123June 03, 2015

Its a bit like audio "black face" don't you think? Its just bad taste and really dumb. Maybe its funny if your 12 years old. Don't most of these guys on the podcast have college degrees? Could have fooled me.

KobeskillzJune 03, 2015

Quote from: eggface123

Its a bit like audio "black face" don't you think? Its just bad taste and really dumb. Maybe its funny if your 12 years old. Don't most of these guys on the podcast have college degrees? Could have fooled me.

I think that’s a bit much. I think it would be a fun segment and there is nothing racist about it.

I’m not sure what college degrees have anything to do with it as well. I mean you’re posting in a thread for a podcast about Nintendo and a game that came out in 06 and you decided to pick on them for the rap?

It’s all in good fun and college degrees have nothing to do with having fun and joking around. Let’s get off our high horses here.

OedoJune 03, 2015

Quote from: Kobeskillz

I again have to defend Splatoon a little here.

A lot of reviews have focused on the lack of content but I would argue that the content is in line with other games and more and more content will get added starting today I believe.
  If you buy this game and don’t plan to play the online then I could see the argument being made for sure

The game launched with five maps and literally one game mode. We're at six and two now. There are a fair number of weapons, but even in that sense they artificially inflate the number by having duplicate primary weapons with different skins and subs/specials (which they couldn't get away with if the game had custom loadouts). Any way you slice it, that's a lack of content and most definitely not in line with other games (at least not good ones).


And I wouldn't say a lot of reviews have focused on the lack of content. The majority of reviews have focused on how fun the game is, which is why it's generally getting 8/10s. They point out the lack of content, which is entirely fair, but ultimately conclude that the game is really good and really fun in spite of this (which I agree with). I've already put ~15 hours into the online multiplayer myself, so it's not as I'm not having a lot of fun, but that doesn't change the facts. These flaws don't hold the game back from being good, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

KobeskillzJune 03, 2015

Quote from: Oedo

Quote from: Kobeskillz

I again have to defend Splatoon a little here.

A lot of reviews have focused on the lack of content but I would argue that the content is in line with other games and more and more content will get added starting today I believe.
  If you buy this game and don’t plan to play the online then I could see the argument being made for sure

The game launched with five maps and literally one game mode. We're at six and two now. There are a fair number of weapons, but even in that sense they artificially inflate the number by having duplicate primary weapons with different skins and subs/specials (which they couldn't get away with if the game had custom loadouts). Any way you slice it, that's a lack of content and most definitely not in line with other games (at least not good ones).


And I wouldn't say a lot of reviews have focused on the lack of content. The majority of reviews have focused on how fun the game is, which is why it's generally getting 8/10s. They point out the lack of content, which is entirely fair, but ultimately conclude that the game is really good and really fun in spite of this (which I agree with). I've already put ~15 hours into the online multiplayer myself, so it's not as I'm not having a lot of fun, but that doesn't change the facts. These flaws don't hold the game back from being good, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

You make fair points and yes there is no denying that compared to other shooters it does lack content but then at the same time you dumped 15 hours in the game already. That’s more than most modern games.

I guess the lack of content in a sense doesn’t bother me because I’ve already poured in more time in the game than most other games.

Also lets be fair here most shooters have 15+ levels and a crap load of weapons. The same 4 levels keep rotating and everyone pretty much uses the same weapons.

So I like Nintendo’s approach somewhat because you learn and play every level then they drop more levels. Yes it’s a bit hand holding but it also makes you learn the levels and try out all the guns.

Let’s not forget that it’s a new franchise as well and the focus was on gameplay vs content which is absolutely the correct way to go. The sequels will surely include much more content and features. Think of Pikmin 1 compared to the others.

OedoJune 03, 2015

Quote from: Kobeskillz

Quote from: Oedo

Quote from: Kobeskillz

I again have to defend Splatoon a little here.

A lot of reviews have focused on the lack of content but I would argue that the content is in line with other games and more and more content will get added starting today I believe.
  If you buy this game and don’t plan to play the online then I could see the argument being made for sure

The game launched with five maps and literally one game mode. We're at six and two now. There are a fair number of weapons, but even in that sense they artificially inflate the number by having duplicate primary weapons with different skins and subs/specials (which they couldn't get away with if the game had custom loadouts). Any way you slice it, that's a lack of content and most definitely not in line with other games (at least not good ones).


And I wouldn't say a lot of reviews have focused on the lack of content. The majority of reviews have focused on how fun the game is, which is why it's generally getting 8/10s. They point out the lack of content, which is entirely fair, but ultimately conclude that the game is really good and really fun in spite of this (which I agree with). I've already put ~15 hours into the online multiplayer myself, so it's not as I'm not having a lot of fun, but that doesn't change the facts. These flaws don't hold the game back from being good, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

You make fair points and yes there is no denying that compared to other shooters it does lack content but then at the same time you dumped 15 hours in the game already. That’s more than most modern games.

I guess the lack of content in a sense doesn’t bother me because I’ve already poured in more time in the game than most other games.

Agreed. It doesn't bother me either and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm approaching 100+ hours in the online multiplayer by the time summer is over. I just think that if someone wants to bring that up as a criticism, it's a fair point. I wouldn't agree with them if they said it was a bad game solely because of that, but at the same time I can see it being an issue for someone who likes but doesn't love the core gameplay. You really have to buy into the game to get past the issue and luckily it seems like most people have.

KobeskillzJune 03, 2015

Quote from: Oedo

Quote from: Kobeskillz

Quote from: Oedo

Quote from: Kobeskillz

I again have to defend Splatoon a little here.

A lot of reviews have focused on the lack of content but I would argue that the content is in line with other games and more and more content will get added starting today I believe.
  If you buy this game and don’t plan to play the online then I could see the argument being made for sure

The game launched with five maps and literally one game mode. We're at six and two now. There are a fair number of weapons, but even in that sense they artificially inflate the number by having duplicate primary weapons with different skins and subs/specials (which they couldn't get away with if the game had custom loadouts). Any way you slice it, that's a lack of content and most definitely not in line with other games (at least not good ones).


And I wouldn't say a lot of reviews have focused on the lack of content. The majority of reviews have focused on how fun the game is, which is why it's generally getting 8/10s. They point out the lack of content, which is entirely fair, but ultimately conclude that the game is really good and really fun in spite of this (which I agree with). I've already put ~15 hours into the online multiplayer myself, so it's not as I'm not having a lot of fun, but that doesn't change the facts. These flaws don't hold the game back from being good, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

You make fair points and yes there is no denying that compared to other shooters it does lack content but then at the same time you dumped 15 hours in the game already. That’s more than most modern games.

I guess the lack of content in a sense doesn’t bother me because I’ve already poured in more time in the game than most other games.

Agreed. It doesn't bother me either and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm approaching 100+ hours in the online multiplayer by the time summer is over. I just think that if someone wants to bring that up as a criticism, it's a fair point. I wouldn't agree with them if they said it was a bad game solely because of that, but at the same time I can see it being an issue for someone who likes but doesn't love the core gameplay. You really have to buy into the game to get past the issue and luckily it seems like most people have.

Yeah and you know what I agree with you.

I think at times I get defensive because other companies cram as much as possible into some games and half of that works or isn’t even very good.

Assassins creed can last you 100 hours but the games have bugs, half-baked ideas and unpolished gameplay in some areas.

Nintendo’s way is more like hey you know what we are going to polish the hell out of the gameplay and focus on that and then add content to it. If we don’t have enough time to add tons of content well that’s ok because the core gameplay and game is polished to a shine.

None of that Halo or GTA where the games didn’t even work online for all their content it was a moot point. I hear Halo STILL doesn’t work right after 100000000 patches. How about Skyrim? A game that many would argue didn’t even run in a playable form  on the PS3.

So I actually applaud Nintendo for doing what’s right should get applauded.

PS. Anyone want to add me in splatoon. Kobeskillz

KobeskillzJune 03, 2015

Sorry I don't mean to dominate this thread but i've been listening to the podcast in chunks. lol.


The boss battle with Ganon at the end is NOT terrible! That was super epic and I often go back to the save file to replay that boss battle. One of my all time favorite ones.

ClexYoshiJune 05, 2015

Quote from: lolmonade

Passing question - 24 mins into the podcast, Jonny wonders if Sonic Boom's failure will make Sega pull back on the "bad" sonic games and reconsider releasing garbage.
.

This part of this podcast made the plain ride home from Seattle SOOOO much longer. My head started racing with how much ill-informed info was in this segment of this podcast, which is why I was actually dreading James playing this.

1.) Sonic Boom was a different dev. it was a western dev. there was ex-naughty dog guys working on this game, which is why a lot of it feels like super uninspired Jak and Daxter stuff.

2.) Gui is SO far off base with his sweeping accusations on 3D Sonic. it's almost as bad of an accusation as the whole "Sonic's friends suck we don't want to play as them!" argument.

some of the most fuffiling level design in Sonic Generations comes from the modern sonic stages. Modern Seaside Hill and Modern Sky Sanctuary are so chock full of wonderful alternate routes that come from the 3D gameplay and the sort of twitch reflex platforming that you really don't get anywhere else. there is a joy in the sort of free-form rythim gameplay that comes from doing time attack on 3D Sonic stages in generations or the daytime stuff in Unleashed.

a lot of the mods out there for the PC version of Sonic Generations? Modern Sonic levels. there's a whole level pack that is a faithful recreation of all of SOnic Unleashed out there since that game never got a PC port. there's a really inspired SOnic adventure mod pack, there's all sorts of levels from all over sonic history and unique ones still, and all these mods tend to be for modern sonic rather than classic. there's even a few colors levels out there where they do what they can considering the limitations they have with wisp coding.

Sega HAD a really good formula with the mix of 3D and 2D stuff with unleashed/colors/Generations. maybe not something faithful to the idea of momentum based platforming that made the 2D games great, but they had a working formula, and then they kinda decided to experiment with Lost world, a game that at the time of release, was far too frustrating with how kill-happy it is and the fact that they didn't program in extra lives at 100 rings for some infathomable reason. thankfully between Zelda DLC level for grinding lives and the patches that fixed a couple of really crappy things like wisp motion controls and such, the game is actually pretty good, but the damage is already done there.

Sonic 4's complete disregard for physics and more importantly, decent level design is aclear call that just makign sonic games 2D isn't the answer. I find sonic Rush's on-rails approach to the platforming to be kinda less fuffiling because the roller coaster effect just isn't as dazzling in the 2D gameplay as it is in 3D.

Then again, I'm one of the folks out there that thinks Marble zone has really good level design that's maybe just a bit mismatched with the hero that's stuck platforming it.

Also, fun fact; Jun Senoue's butt-rock band, Crush 40 (the guys that brought us such classics as "Live and Learn") actually did an album with a song called Sonic Youth on it.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOLpBTDvd24 Enjoy, James. >:3

TOPHATANT123June 05, 2015

I also like marble zone, it isn't wasn't very good as a second stage.

ClexYoshiJune 05, 2015

Quote from: TOPHATANT123

I also like marble zone, it isn't wasn't very good as a second stage.

It beats the hell out of Labyrinth zone originally being planned as stage 2, lemme tell you~!

@Clexyoshi




Well, you know, 3D platformers and I don't get along.

ClexYoshiJune 08, 2015

Quote from: Pandareus

@Clexyoshi




Well, you know, 3D platformers and I don't get along.

I suppose that's true enough. and the 3D parts of Unleashed/Colors/Generations is more like controlling a car or something, and that's not nessesarily everybody's jam. Regardless, Gui, you should hit up the Sonic Advance stuff, or if you're especially brave, venture over to somewhere like Sonicretro.org. they make a lot of really crazy hacks, from just your proper level layout/character moveset type things (Sonic 1 Megamix/S Factor/Metal Sonic Hyper Drive/Amy Rose/Vector the Crocodile/Espio the chameleon/Charmy Bee in Sonic the hedgehog) to things that are more just tiny tweaks to things or better hashouts of dropped concepts (Sonic 1 CD Remastered/Sonic 3 complete/some of the basic hacks that will like... remove the speed cap from SOnic 1 or allow for Sonic and Tails playable), to really kick-ass proof of concept hacks (Sonic 1 Color Contrast, Sonic 2 XL, an ordinary Sonic 1, LSD is bad, Sonic VR, Pana Der Hejhog, Dr. Robotnik's Critter Capturer) to outright baseless trolling! (Sonic 1 Omochao edition, Sonic the Very Useful Hedgehog, Sonic Vs. Camera, Red the Hedgehog, Chip McCallister in Sonic the hedgehog)

if nothing else, a lot of the people hacking sonic games at least have more imagination than the people hacking SMW. Speaking of that, I'm really looking forward to seeing if Mario Maker can stack up to Lunarmagic, but then again, it's kinda hard to stack up against a program that lets you insert custom art, music, and enemy coding into SMW. (a program that is going to be 15 years old in september!)

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