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Episode 389: Best Practices

by James Jones, Jon Lindemann, Jonathan Metts, and Guillaume Veillette - July 6, 2014, 2:28 pm PDT
Total comments: 74

Weird assortment of games in New Business leads to weird assortment of stories and questions in Listener Mail!

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This episode is notable for an odd assortment of New Business games and an overall rowdy tone, due in part to Skype problems that made it hard for us to coordinate a friendly conversation. So... enjoy?!? James is first with his long-awaited thoughts on Super Mario 3D World, and he even mixes in a little Shovel Knight post-mortem. Guillaume tries Xenoblade for the third time, and it seems to be clicking this time. Jonny gushes about Resogun, the PS4 arcade shoot-em-up that just got new updates and DLC. Although he's considered our resident FPS expert, Jon has never really tried the Battlefield series, and what better place to start than the newest entry that is still dogged by bugs and balance issues? Wrapping up, we swing back to James for his bewildered description of Electroplankton: Rec Rec from DSiWare. Bonus: Hear his absolutely horrifying audio creation during the break!

Listener Mail is always a treat for us, because we love hearing from fans and engaging in whatever topics you want to hear. The gracious contributions this week include Transformers (and other enjoyable-but-"bad" games), the best GamePad titles for families, the unshakable curse of GameCube controllers, and the pleasures/hazards of listening to podcasts... in the shower? No matter where and how you listen to RFN, we'd love to hear from you! Join the email caucus today.

This podcast was edited by Guillaume Veillette.

Music for this episode of Radio Free Nintendo is used with permission from Jason Ricci & New Blood. You can purchase their newest album, Done with the Devil, directly from the record label, Amazon (CD) (MP3), or iTunes, or call your local record store and ask for it!

Additional music for this episode of Radio Free Nintendo is copyrighted to Nintendo and is included under fair use protection.

Talkback

BeautifulShyJuly 06, 2014

Funny Xenoblade Chronicles reared it's head in this week's podcast; a lot of people are playing it again thanks to the efforts of Chuggaaconroy's Let's play. he gave out something like 40 copies of the game and is urging folks to play it... did Chuggaa Have any influence in Gui's choice to pick it up? Also, Dunban and Reyn are pretty great. the AI is pretty bad at playing Sharla, so sometimes I just roll with Riki/Dunban/Reyn and I have enough survivability going on to deal with a vast majority of encounters. I'll play as Sharla if I'm pulling something a little out of my league, but I am always the type of person that when I'm provided with a way to increase the EXP or drop rate of things that I always try to work that into my party/Build so I can have 3 pages of swords as quick as possible! :D

It's nice to know that James Jones recieved Giygas for the DSiWare  for his loyalty to Nintendo.



I legitimatley want Johnny Metts to make a walkthrough of Fester's Quest and then still tell the people on this Podcast that it is something he still likes. I do like campy  and bad games. I still come back to a couple of crap-tastic games like Way of the Samurai for PS2 or Battle Hunter on PSX. one of my favorite games for GBA was the outright broken and terribly simple Yugioh: The Eternal Duelist's soul because it is the PERFECT game to play on the toilet. more perfect then even Tetris, I'd argue. also, Spleunker. That's the game that invented the term 'kusoge', and yet I think it's SO addictive with how quickly it will murder you. I've seriously never played a game where you get game over in the first 15 seconds of it being in your NES before.

Ah, no, it's just that after seeing Xenoblade Chronicles X at E3 this year, I thought I should get my ass in gear.


Right now, my priority with my party maxing out affinity, even if that means having a team that doesn't work well together like Melia, Sharla and Riki. It's pretty awful against some enemies, and I switch for bosses, but I just want to see those extra story bits as soon as I can.

Fiendlord_TimmayJuly 06, 2014

Wow, lots of thoughts to add this week. Let's see...

Mario 3D World - Regarding the faster speed of the game, I think some of my favorite levels are the ones with the boost pads that make you super fast. There's one in the castle world (7 essentially) that's awesome. It's nothing but boost pads throughout the whole level. Two friends and I played multiplayer in that level and it was absolute madness. We decided to take turns bubbling so that one person could take a crack at getting the green stars at a time. It was a lot of fun, probably my favorite level so far.

I've played this entire game multiplayer up to this point (I'm in world 8 ), and I can totally confirm the fact that this game is, as James put it, "custom built to troll the crap out of people." Every level pretty much consists of us trying to pick each other up and throw them off a ledge, blasting really far ahead to troll people who want to explore, popping peoples' bubbles over pits, letting all the others do the work killing enemies and then snagging the reward for yourself, etc. All this is well and good for the most part, but it's kind of annoying because everyone shares lives, unlike in the NSMB series. They must have done that to try and discourage trolling (because if you kill someone else, you're just hurting yourself too) but in reality nobody really thinks that way.

As far as multiplayer camera control in that game, I can't make heads or tails of it. It doesn't have any immediately discernible rhyme or reason. It's certainly not the player with the gamepad, and it doesn't seem to be the person with the crown either. I never paid that much attention, but I seem to recall plenty of times where I had the crown but was off screen. I don't even think it's where the majority of people are going because oftentimes a single person would run off on their own and the camera would follow them for some reason. It's really hard to tell what the camera is going to do, which is probably my biggest complaint with this game. It makes it SO hard to play in multiplayer. But I've resigned myself to not caring about secrets while I play that way, which is fine because I would have to go through the levels twice most of the time anyway to get all the secrets, so the difference in experience with single player vs. multiplayer is a nice way to divide up my two playthroughs of all the levels.

One last note: playing the Plessie levels in multiplayer is pretty fun. Everyone has to work together to make it move in the correct direction, and I believe you jump higher if everyone jumps at the same time. For once in this game, cooperation is really necessary, and it's pretty fun.

Xenoblade - So glad (but not too surprised) that Guillaume is finally enjoying Xenoblade. It's such an awesome game, but I remember not being that wowed by it at first. I don't think it was until after the High Entia Tomb that I really started getting hooked (which I believe was about 30 hours into the game for me). That's a hell of a long time for the game to really get started! That's why I always tell people who are unimpressed with Xenoblade to give it more time. The farther you are into the game, the more complex it gets, with more characters, more systems, a more intriguing plot, more beautiful vistas, etc. It just keeps getting better and better (for the most part).

Honestly I was a little surprised to hear that Guillaume liked the sidequests. I thought that was one of the weakest aspects of the game. I would have preferred very few, but meaty sidequests with really big rewards (Chrono Trigger endgame style), rather than a thousand short quests with piddly little rewards. Also, requiring near maximum affinity with each area to get the extra skill trees, Monado Arts, etc. was not appreciated. SO. MUCH. BUSYWORK. I agree that it does help flesh out the world (aptly raising your affinity with that area), which is nice and one of the greatest appeals of this game, but I thought there were just too many of them. But I'm glad to hear that Guillaume enjoys that part because he's almost assuredly going to enjoy everything else then.

Also the inventory thing was my other complaint with the game. In a game as big and expansive as this, I think having limits on how much stuff you can hold is just unfair. I never knew when a specific collectable would be required for a sidequest, so I always got scared throwing things away. It's really an unnecessary stress that shouldn't be in the game. And as far as having too much equipment... the best stuff pretty much always sorts near the top of the list, so you shouldn't have to scroll through a bunch of pages whenever you're equipping things. And I never like to sell things in RPGs. Either it's too much work or I'm to paranoid to sell it off. I'd rather be safe than sorry. I wish Xenoblade didn't make me sell things off, but at least the equipment you get late game is strictly better than earlier stuff, so it's easy to let go of the old crap you don't need anymore.

Also, I found level I and II gems pretty worthless. Level III gems were moderately useful, but I only really felt level IV and V gems were totally worthwhile. That's more of and endgame and superboss type of thing anyway. I think the story is pretty easy (with the exception of THAT boss near the end of the game.... GRRRR) so gems can be pretty safely ignored if you find them a hassle. But at the same time, if you find yourself stuck, you could try messing with those instead of grinding if you prefer.

Playing as other characters is also one of my favorite aspects of the game. Each one plays very uniquely, and is also pretty balanced (as Gui mentioned, they all have ways to break, topple, daze etc.). I would frequently switch which character I was controlling just for fun, and I rarely, if ever, felt nerfed when doing so. Also, as Jonny briefly mentioned, Seven (name used by the community to avoid spoilers) is my favorite character to play. They became my main for the remainder of the game, and their playstyle is so fresh and fast and new that it gave me an entirely new appreciation for the combat, which had become kind of a ritual by that point (a good 50 hours into the game). The uniqueness of the characters and how well they're all suited to playability is another underappreciated aspect of the game that really made me love it even more.

Regarding the beauteous vistas in the game, I also loved how some of the best vistas in the game are secret areas. It's like a reward for truly exploring the areas. Not only do you get to see some of the most stunning views in the game, but you get a bucketload of experience at the same time. It's a fantastic way to make the moment feel like a special event. There are two in the game that stood out to me the most: one in Makna Forest and the other in The Fallen Arm. The latter in particular is after a long climb and feels like the end of a long journey. It also looks out across the entire area and really feels like you're on top of the world. It really leaves an impression.

Also, nerd note: Valak Mountain (the snow area) is not the head of the Bionis. The Eryth Sea is actually on its head. Valak mountain is the sword arm of the Bionis.

Jeez, I always tell myself I'm not going to write a book, but end up doing it anyway. I really have to learn to be more concise. : /

I was even going to write a spirited defense of the Gamecube controller, but I don't feel like doing that now. Maybe later I will if I can muster the effort.

BeautifulShyJuly 06, 2014

Quote from: ClexYoshi

Funny Xenoblade Chronicles reared it's head in this week's podcast; a lot of people are playing it again thanks to the efforts of Chuggaaconroy's Let's play. he gave out something like 40 copies of the game and is urging folks to play it... did Chuggaa Have any influence in Gui's choice to pick it up? Also, Dunban and Reyn are pretty great. the AI is pretty bad at playing Sharla, so sometimes I just roll with Riki/Dunban/Reyn and I have enough survivability going on to deal with a vast majority of encounters. I'll play as Sharla if I'm pulling something a little out of my league, but I am always the type of person that when I'm provided with a way to increase the EXP or drop rate of things that I always try to work that into my party/Build so I can have 3 pages of swords as quick as possible! :D

It's nice to know that James Jones recieved Giygas for the DSiWare  for his loyalty to Nintendo.



I legitimatley want Johnny Metts to make a walkthrough of Fester's Quest and then still tell the people on this Podcast that it is something he still likes. I do like campy  and bad games. I still come back to a couple of crap-tastic games like Way of the Samurai for PS2 or Battle Hunter on PSX. one of my favorite games for GBA was the outright broken and terribly simple Yugioh: The Eternal Duelist's soul because it is the PERFECT game to play on the toilet. more perfect then even Tetris, I'd argue. also, Spleunker. That's the game that invented the term 'kusoge', and yet I think it's SO addictive with how quickly it will murder you. I've seriously never played a game where you get game over in the first 15 seconds of it being in your NES before.

Did not mean to hit post! I have other topics I want to remark on!

Okay...! first off, thank you for reading my Mail! facetiousness about the Ascii Keyboard circle Gamecube Pad Pro aside, I was talking about most people playing Sonic Colors or Xenoblade or their N64 Virtual Console games with Gamecube controllers.

As for what makes the the gamecube controller the ideal Smash Bros controller is because of the focus given to the A button. having the primary attack button that you do most of your work on be the central focal point of the action and the other functions clustered around that makes it very easy to drift away from that A button to jump or a B-special, but zip RIGHT back to that primary attack button, which is important for doing the sort of lightning fast series of finger pushes required to comfortably perform techniques like SHFFL attacks (Short-hop Fast-Fall Lcancel, a technique that allows for air attacks to be performed pretty much by leaving the ground for a split second, canceling out the animation and hitting the ground so that you can lead into your next attack quickly).

I feel like the kidney bean X and Y buttons were what I don't like about the face buttons... maybe downsize that A button a little bit and move X and Y into their traditional positions, and you still have a controller that has this emphasized action button that rests PERFECTLY where your thumb does. I'm with James as far as the analogue click goes, and that there are plenty of ways that games could properly impliment it. the groves that the Analogue triggers had also complimented the form factor and handles nicely. C-stick obviously needs to be much better, as well as the D-pad, and I feel neither of those should be placed TOO far out. make more surface space on the controller rather than having them out on these tiny little islands where they are to be neglected and shunned. Z button obviously needs to be replaced with a real shoulder button and cloned to the other side, but I think we're starting to get something interesting here. Assuming we put Y and B in relative similar space to the SNES/current placement on the gamepad or something, but had A and X still share that primary action button and side off button relationship that we'd have something interesting that could tailor to both the qualities people found good about the GCN controller while still having the two buttons that really matter when playing SNES style games or such. I'll even provide a super primitive mock-up that is not indicative of my actual artistic prowess.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y236/ClexYoshi/SUpercube_zps005e86f1.jpg

Adrock¸July 06, 2014

At this rate we will have Radio Free Nintendo: The Bathroom Experience.


Always delighted to hear more Xenoblade on the podcast. This recent discussion has reminded me of a long post I wrote on Gem Crafting:
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=28408.msg729324#msg729324


The low rank Gems aren't worth the bother of crafting as the bonuses they grant can be easily supplanted with leveling. Also, I think you can get enough gems from quest rewards and such. Rank 4 and 5 gems are the ones to craft and they give you hefty bonuses that are useful near the end of the game. Finally, having Quick Step V is just so pleasant.



While I love the Gamecube controller overall, I don't want to see it crop up again in the future. Hopefully the successor of the Wii U Pro Controller will have the sticks in the right position (as they are on the GCN/360/XB1 controller) and analog triggers.

Quote from: Enner

At this rate we will have Radio Free Nintendo: The Bathroom Experience.

Please don't encourage them.

Adrock¸July 06, 2014

Ha! It's the logical end, man. The logical end!

One thing I forgot to mention about Xenoblade is that I hope everyone who plays it give Melia a good try beyond the sequences where you're forced to play as her. Melia is my favorite character in the game and is only able to truly shine under the player's control. Her summoned elements provide powerful auras and a discharged lightning element hits for wonderful burst damage. Roll with Dunban as an evasive tank and you shouldn't need too much healing to require Sharla. Having three characters doing considerable DPS really changes the flow of battle compared to starting hours of the traditional tank-healer-damage party.

Reflecting on Xenoblade's system, it was pretty smart of Monolith Software to have the 7TH character able to radically change 7TH's attributes by just wearing different armor. This allows 7TH to be more easily swapped in to whatever party the player is already familiar with.

Jo351July 07, 2014

There is one major feature being overlooked about the GCN controller.  It is wired and currently will be the only wired WiiU controller(that I know of).  Any competitive setting needs to be wired to avoid interference, input delays, and syncing.  Now this might not impact the majority of players, but with Nintendo's increasing support of competitive Smash this seems to me to be an efficient way to solve that problem and placate the Melee masterrace.  I'll be using a GCN out of preference and preference only.  I didn't enjoy using the WiiU Pro, if it had impressed me I might have honestly passed on the adapter.

fenrir_VIIJuly 07, 2014

I have tried in the past to be nicer about this and actually write decent paragraphs about how I disagree with some points you make about Smash Bros, and players of Smash Bros, but this week actually kind of pissed me off.


I'm ok with James having his opinions of Smash Bros and its players. I'm ok with Jonny's points this week about the Gamecube controller... but for a Nintendo-themed podcast, you guys really need to do some homework before making these kind of statements. 


How do you have an entire discussion about why the community prefers Gamecube controllers without even mentioning that it's the ONLY wired controller that either the Wii or Wii U have offered? It's not a new concept that any kind of competition needs to have as little input lag as possible to avoid having the hardware cause you to lose. This is why competition fight sticks, FPS controllers, gaming mice, etc etc etc are all wired.


Now that's not the only reason the GCN controller is well-received. Other reasons would include the fact that the control stick is actually very rugged and responsive, the A button is a focal point, the stick is an 8-direction focus (which discourages random UP inputs, etc), and the analog shoulder buttons allow light-shielding (which makes a difference) in Melee.


It's not that the GCN controller was what we "grew up playing with" (although I'm sure that helps), it's that at any given point in Smash's history, it was the best available option for competitive play. That said, most people I've heard from actually like the Wii U Pro controller, and would have supported it. However, there were large concerns over the input lag/dropped inputs from a wireless controller... especially when you have upwards of 100 people trying to sync to consoles in the same room.




As I have written in previously, I think it would be helpful if you guys actually did some sort of panel with competitive Smashers, to get kind of the flip side of the argument, as opposed to only bashing a "subset" of people for "playing the game wrong", when that same subset are the ones who have kept a game alive for > 10 years.

We are not bashing, only disagreeing on certain points. Well, James is bashing but he does that to everything.

This conversation, quite frankly, wasn't about competitive Smash. I appreciate your perspective on the matter, which is valid and additive to the discussion, but our focus on other aspects of the issue was an intentional choice rather than an oversight. If we'd actually gone into the details of tournament play, I'm sure the wired/wireless issue would have come up. However, for us on the show and the vast majority of Smash players, the need for wires is actually a detriment. That's why many people looked at the GC adapter and wondered if it would support WaveBirds, and if Nintendo might even reproduce the WaveBird on this occasion. (I'm not really convinced that the "we lost the mold" story is factual but admittedly haven't done much research into it.)

Yes, the wired format of the GameCube controller might give it advantages over the Pro, for certain players. However, that is not a unique feature to the GC controller. If Nintendo actually cared about providing the best possible controller for Smash Bros, they would fix things like the Z button and C-stick and D-pad. The fact that they are releasing an old controller, which already has some minor issues with the single game supporting it on this platform, indicates that they are mainly just trying to please a set of people who are accustomed to a certain thing despite its limitations. That's why I used the word pandering. It feels good to be pandered to, so you should enjoy it. Just don't get pissed when we call a spade a spade.

BeautifulShyJuly 08, 2014

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

We are not bashing, only disagreeing on certain points. Well, James is bashing but he does that to everything.

This conversation, quite frankly, wasn't about competitive Smash. I appreciate your perspective on the matter, which is valid and additive to the discussion, but our focus on other aspects of the issue was an intentional choice rather than an oversight. If we'd actually gone into the details of tournament play, I'm sure the wired/wireless issue would have come up. However, for us on the show and the vast majority of Smash players, the need for wires is actually a detriment. That's why many people looked at the GC adapter and wondered if it would support WaveBirds, and if Nintendo might even reproduce the WaveBird on this occasion. (I'm not really convinced that the "we lost the mold" story is factual but admittedly haven't done much research into it.)

Yes, the wired format of the GameCube controller might give it advantages over the Pro, for certain players. However, that is not a unique feature to the GC controller. If Nintendo actually cared about providing the best possible controller for Smash Bros, they would fix things like the Z button and C-stick and D-pad. The fact that they are releasing an old controller, which already has some minor issues with the single game supporting it on this platform, indicates that they are mainly just trying to please a set of people who are accustomed to a certain thing despite its limitations. That's why I used the word pandering. It feels good to be pandered to, so you should enjoy it. Just don't get pissed when we call a spade a spade.

Dang...! Dr. Metts layin' down the law of the land! I'm kinda sorry I sent Pandora's box in the form of an e-Mail now, but at the same time you guys opened it in a big way!

I suppose if people still give a rat's ass about this talkback thread, I'd like to ask if having a micro-USB connection to the Wii U Pro controller  and with the right analogue/face button switch be enough to make people be happy with that?

There are a couple more things that I wasn't thinking about, but the last couple of Analogue sticks that nintendo has put out have not had the octogonal shell around them to make inputs in cardinal directions easier! a lot of the time when you're flicking the analogue stick around as hard as you are playing Super Smash Bros or perhaps a Mario platformer or something that needs that directed input a bit more, finding that groove quick can be a quick way to make those pinpoint inputs without having to doubt yourself or just making a mistake outright.

SteëfosaurusJuly 08, 2014

On Super Mario 3D World camera preference.

I'm pretty sure all levels have that invisible progression line in them and the person who is farther on it than others is the preferred one.

SteëfosaurusJuly 08, 2014

One of the genuinely cool, unique gamepad uses is Wii U Panorama. I highly recommend downloading a demo of that.

SteëfosaurusJuly 08, 2014

On analog triggers.

There is a very narrow list of games where having analog is beneficial like Trials and racing games.

And but there is also an overwhelmingly giant list of games where digital triggers are much more preferable, like any non-racing game basically. Having analog trigger doing something crucial in an action game is bad (why did you put the dodge in Bayonetta on analog trigger, Kamiya, why).

daverhodusJuly 08, 2014

I listened to this episode up to the point that the host told the listeners to "shut the fuck up". Sure, there were a bunch of qualifiers and I get that you guys feel like you need to defend your reviewers. But this was a bit much for me.

If you want to take things out of context like that, you could probably find much worse things that we've all said. My language was admittedly harsh, but I was speaking in the abstract -- not to listeners, but more broadly, to all gamers and people, including myself. Don't criticize that of which you know nothing. It's life advice that we can all work on.

UnclebobJuly 08, 2014

I think the wavebird was sacrificed to the patent trolls if I recall correctly. Some patent thing over the wireless tech and Nintendo had to cease production.

ResettisCousinJuly 09, 2014

People that repeatedly claim to be misunderstood need to either work on being clearer or accept that their subtext was correctly identified and disagreed with. Especially if they sometimes post on Neogaf, too.

NemoJuly 09, 2014

I really, really like Milon's Secret Castle. I especially like the way the game handled music. Like the bonus stages that were pretty similar, but added an extra instrument for each stage you found. But I can understand why people wouldn't like it. It's a bit hard and the clues are cryptic (as is the case in many a NES game). But for me, it is a beloved game.

I also grew up with Fester's Quest. This game was stupid hard, but there's still (to a lesser extent) something to like about this game. Well, I definitely liked the opening credit music. For sure.

Hey ResettisCousin, when you broadcast thousands of hours of your own thoughts, some small percentage is going to be misunderstood no matter what. The rest, I will own up to my own limitations and try to communicate better. I'm an amateur and can always improve.

As for subtext -- I avoid it as much as possible. I'm never intentionally speaking in code or trying to convey hidden messages. Most of my frustration at being misunderstood comes from people reading subtext where there is none. As Jon has often noted, I'm honest to a fault. I will tell you exactly what I think, even if it's not polite to do so. No reason for me to be subtle.

UnclebobJuly 09, 2014

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

Hey ResettisCousin, when you broadcast thousands of hours of your own thoughts, some small percentage is going to be misunderstood no matter what. The rest, I will own up to my own limitations and try to communicate better. I'm an amateur and can always improve.

As for subtext -- I avoid it as much as possible. I'm never intentionally speaking in code or trying to convey hidden messages. Most of my frustration at being misunderstood comes from people reading subtext where there is none. As Jon has often noted, I'm honest to a fault. I will tell you exactly what I think, even if it's not polite to do so. No reason for me to be subtle.

Source: episode 5.

happyastoriaJuly 09, 2014

Metts can be annoying and quite frankly a bit up his own ass sometimes (some might even argue most of the time). I'm actually starting to enjoy the episodes when he's out.

UnclebobJuly 09, 2014

I'm wondering if all of this is the result of hosting for so long. He's been hosting since what, episode 83 and after re-listening to one of the anniversary episodes where Karl started talking about the difference between being a host and a panelist I've been thinking...

It might be good for him to step back for a while and go on as a regular show member and just take a break from hosting. in general it would probably improve the show to shake up the roles a bit and thus get some other people talking...

I still, after almost 2 years, don't feel that Gui has the same level of presence on the show as Greg did so maybe having him host (with the help of lindy or james) for a few episodes would help... almost force that out... for lack of a better term...

Maybe it would be good to have Johnny hand off the host seat until 400 (or 404: the corrections: part 2 :D)

UnclebobJuly 09, 2014

I will say that the Wii Remote and Nunchuck are the best alternative to the gcn controller provided that you map the d-pad to serve as a pseudo c-stick (a c-pad, if you will :D)

Oh and I take back the corrections part 2 remark, the way things sre going you may need that for 390.

Pile it on, guys!

Pixelated PixiesJuly 09, 2014

Awesome episode guys!

I'm really looking forward to Shovel knight being released in Europe. I think I'm going to really DIG that game...

On the point of Smash Bros and this on-going tension between 'casual players' and 'competitive players', I've got nothing. Smash Bros is a series that I've never found to be satisfying, either as a casual party game or a competitive brawler. In concept the idea of gaming's greatest icons fighting it out is super appealing, but Sakurai's approach to the mechanics of fighting have never worked for me.

I love Jonny and he is one of my favorite podcast personalities, even before I joined staff.

daverhodusJuly 09, 2014

I should have found a way to articulate my frustration better, instead of singling out one guy. My issue was with most of that discussion. I thought the listener asked an interesting question. I felt like a lot of that discussion was a shoehorned attempt to criticize the listeners. I'm sure other people felt differently about it.

TrueNerdJuly 09, 2014

Yeah I also love Jonny. Demanding he take a break or whatever is nonsense.

UnclebobJuly 09, 2014

I'm not demanding anything, I'm just noticing alot of hate on him and basically throwing noodles on a wall.

I'm fine with him (although I still say Gui needs to step it up a bit) but others aren't so I'm trying to play troubleshooting and failing at it.

mereelJuly 09, 2014

Good grief. I hope Johnny is ignoring his detractors found in this thread. They certainly are a vocal minority, as this podcast continues to grow in popularity. RFN has in Johnny a bold and eloquent host who can keep the discussion interesting, on topic and moving fast. He's also very dedicated, serving as RFN host week after week. All that can't be easy, and this isn't his day job.


There are plenty of wannabe podcasts with distracted wimps for hosts, but RFN isn't one of them.

nickmitchJuly 09, 2014

Just for a counterpoint, I think some of the criticism posted here is kind of ridiculous. Maybe people taking things out of context, or taking things personally that shouldn't be, or whatever... but hey, that's just my opinion.


You know, like how stuff said on the show is just one opinion coming from one viewpoint - and should only be taken as such.


C'est la vie.

nickmitchJuly 09, 2014

Regarding the actual podcast, loved hearing some talk about Xenoblade again. My excitement for the sequel continues to grow... it's getting to the point I'm strongly considering replaying the game (what's another 100 hours?) before the year is out.


Despite my love for the game, and despite all the effort they put in to making the game respect my time, the menus did feel overwhelming at times and certainly could be time-consuming.  Like Gui, I would only really upgrade my armor/weapons every couple of hours, and then have to deal with tons of inventory junk.  I also fell into the gem crafting pit more than a few times... spending too many hours crafting gems that really weren't useful.


That issue was totally overwhelmed by my love for new vistas and hidden areas, experimenting with all of the different playable characters and parties, and a compelling story.  Can't get enough of this game - so if Gui wants to bring it up in any future episode all the better.

fenrir_VIIJuly 10, 2014

I think Jonny is a great host... and I respect his opinion quite a bit (although I usually personally disagree with his game preferences), but there are things on the show lately that are just plain wrong or overlooked, and that bothers me.


The specific argument "Why do people love the GCN controller" came up on the show, and Jonny even chimed in with (paraphrase) "the Classic Controller Pro is better in nearly every way", without highlighting the obvious benefits that the GCN controller has over the CCP, or any other controller that Nintendo has made since the Gamecube. Namely (with regards to the CCP):
A) the wire so inputs aren't dropped (NOTORIOUS on the CCP)
B) The reversed control stick position, which is MUCH better for long-term/technical play with the stick (the CCP is geared towards...classic games, so the dpad's preference is understandable there, but not for Smash Bros, which is a control-stick-specific game)
C) The rumble... admittedly not a huge deal, but an option > no option, so this is a + for the GCN controller.


Whether this conversation was directly related to Smash or not (which if you're honest, it kind of HAS to be since the GCN controller is being released FOR Smash only, at least at the moment), Smash 4 would not have had any kind of good competitive scene without a wired controller. Period. So tournament players were worried about it and OVERJOYED when one was revealed. To me (and at least a few others), the fact that it was a Gamecube controller was just icing on the cake (and meant that nobody would have to relearn the control scheme if they played Melee OR Brawl, where the GCN controller was the ONLY wired input available)


This just leads to an overarching problem with the show lately. The hosts (admittedly) do not understand the tournament Smash scene, which includes some (not all) of the most die-hard Nintendo fans there are. While I don't think it's a prerequisite for the hosts to be part of the tournament scene (that would be ridiculous), completely dismissing the scene as a subset, and repeated accusations of "playing the game wrong" are just stupid.


Look I get that you guys all have strong opinions on everything, as do I, but telling anybody that the way they enjoy playing a game, which freely encourages customization, is "wrong" and "not fun" is just a stupid statement. You play the way you want to, and we'll do the same... there doesn't have to be shots fired across those lines.


All that said, as I stated before, I do respect you guys' opinions, and I do appreciate you spending the time to put your voices and thoughts out there. I just wish that it felt like you cared about other fans' opinions and voices, and that you wouldn't shuffle it under the rug with "oh James bashes everybody". Bashing developers for game design choices is understandable. Bashing other fans that don't really impact you is dumb.

What truly frustrates me is that I've tried very hard to be a firewall against James's outright hatred of tournament-style Smash. I've tried to be open-minded, learn from the many listeners who have written about it, and explore different aspects of it on the show. I attended and gave extensive coverage of the Invitational at E3. In he past few months, RFN has given tournament-style Smash more coverage than any other large gaming podcast maybe ever has. I actually agree with most of what you wrote above and have tried to represent that on the show. Yet the more we discuss the topic, the more we get shit upon. It seems there is no way to win. You don't seem satisfied with anything I do to try giving this interesting subject more exposure on the show. Half the RFN crew requested, just last night, that we never talk about Smash Bros ever again. That's how fucking fed up they are with all this. But I'm not going to censor out the year's biggest release just because a few people get crazy upset whenever it comes up.

1)  I thought the only real reason people (including me) prefer to play smash with a GC controller was because it comes with the giant "A" smash button right where the thumb placement is.  Comes in handy for someone like me who uses the b attacks mostly as a way to set-up smash attacks.  That, and I have little girl hands, which makes the gamecube controller fit them better.
2)  Jonny was completely on-point to tell people to "shut the Fuck up", as he was specifically referencing the tidal wave of shit-posts when Neal posted his 7/10 review for Mariokart 8, which ISNT EVEN A BAD SCORE.  Honestly, between the MarioKart review thread and this podcast thread, it's a wonder any of the staffers interact with us at all when it seems half the population can't handle a having a civil discussion.
3) James Jones doesn't have any input of value for competitive smash brothers, simply on the basis that he doesn't understand it.

Disco StuJuly 10, 2014

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

What truly frustrates me is that I've tried very hard to be a firewall against James's outright hatred of tournament-style Smash. I've tried to be open-minded, learn from the many listeners who have written about it, and explore different aspects of it on the show. I attended and gave extensive coverage of the Invitational at E3. In he past few months, RFN has given tournament-style Smash more coverage than any other large gaming podcast maybe ever has. I actually agree with most of what you wrote above and have tried to represent that on the show. Yet the more we discuss the topic, the more we get **** upon. It seems there is no way to win. You don't seem satisfied with anything I do to try giving this interesting subject more exposure on the show. Half the RFN crew requested, just last night, that we never talk about Smash Bros ever again. That's how fucking fed up they are with all this. But I'm not going to censor out the year's biggest release just because a few people get crazy upset whenever it comes up.

Hear hear!


#JonnyForPresident

Quote from: pokepal148

I'm fine with him (although I still say Gui needs to step it up a bit) but others aren't so I'm trying to play troubleshooting and failing at it.

I would agree with you, but honestly, I've notice Gui being a lot more assertive and taking more discussion time during the listener mail segments, so I think he's getting to a place where his presence is more known.
Lindemann though.....I don't recall hearing too much out of him lately, but it doesn't help when you never play any games.

You'll hear a lot from Jon on 390, talking about a very popular Nintendo game!

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

You'll hear a lot from Jon on 390, talking about a very popular Nintendo game!


.....It isn't Super Mario Bros 3 again, is it?
Was it made after 1990?

I try to talk more. I do! But sometimes I shut up and the reason varies.


Sometimes I literally don't have anything to add.
These guys know (or seem to know) more about business, marketing, etc., so you'll hear me just ask questions.
Sometimes I'm looking at the time, hoping we'll move on to the next topic or game, and I don't add what I want to say because I don't want the segment I'll ultimately have to edit end up being too long.

happyastoriaJuly 10, 2014

This is definitely the beginning of the end. Remember when Metts expressed his hated for the anime art style and everyone bashed him because of it? Notice how he suddenly enjoys it/doesn't have any critiques. Psh!

You've got that story all kinds of wrong. I watched DBZ for years in high school before NWR even existed.

happyastoriaJuly 10, 2014

Oh please, everyone - including people who hate anime - watched DBZ as a kid. I used to think G.I Joe the animated series was good. It means nothing. Shall I bring up what you said about Fragile Dreams? Hmmmm.

Fiendlord_TimmayJuly 10, 2014

Holy jeez this thread blew up in the past few days.

Jonny's a great host. He has a very decisive and authoritative personality, which makes him better suited to hosting than any of the other members. However, since he says everything so matter-of-factly, it can rub people the wrong way if he says something they disagree with.

Quote:

Jonny even chimed in with (paraphrase) "the Classic Controller Pro is better in nearly every way", without highlighting the obvious benefits that the GCN controller has over the CCP, or any other controller that Nintendo has made since the Gamecube.

Like this. Also, when Jonny's passionate about something, his tone tends to take on a lecturing, perhaps even condescending quality. As a long time listener of this show who has marathoned far too many episodes consecutively, these qualities do tend to grate on me and I find myself getting annoyed with Jonny more than anyone else on the show.

THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT I HATE JONNY, NOR DO I THINK HE SHOULD CHANGE THE WAY HE CONDUCTS HIMSELF ON THE SHOW. I like hearing Jonny's opinions a lot, and we have similar taste in games so I value that perspective on the show. Even (or perhaps especially) if we disagree on a certain topic, I enjoy hearing an opposing view because it forces me to really think critically about my position and either reconsider it or deeply analyze and be able to argue for my belief. I think the fact that his mannerisms get me so riled up is actually kinda awesome. His passion inspires me to be passionate as well.

Gotta disagree regarding Gui as well. I've been relistening to older episodes recently and I think that Gui settled into place in the early 300s and has been contributing meaningfully and regularly to the discussion for nearly 2 years now.

Fuck the haters. Just keep doin' whatcha doin'. In my opinion, you guys are going strong and are producing episodes that are just as good or better than ever before. If people are getting fatigued of the show, they should take a break. I for one don't want RFN to change any time soon.

I always get lumped in as a "Smash Tournament Hater" yet I've never said anything negative (to my recollection) about playing the game that way.  Mind you, I haven't argued with James vehemently because I really have no dog in the fight (I like Smash but I'm merely a casual fan).

If I don't say much, it's because I don't have the game being discussed.  If I don't have Shovel Knight, I don't have much to say about Shovel Knight.  I think that makes sense. I'm probably more specific in my tastes in terms of what Nintendo puts out vs. the other guys on the show, so I don't jump on every single thing released on the eShop from week to week, for example.  I'm probably the most "Nontendo" guy on the show but I think I do bring a little bit of balance in terms of having some knowledge of genres the other guys may only have cursory knowledge of or interest in (MMOs, FPSes, etc.).

Text message I sent to a friend recently:

"Past couple years I've realized that people see me as professorial no matter what I do, and I might as well use it. Hopefully don't come across as a know it all most of the time"

fenrir_VIIJuly 10, 2014

@Lindemann and @Guillaume: None of my Smash comments at all are directed towards you, because honestly you've never said anything that wasn't understandable on the subject. Sorry if I was unclear on that. You guys are awesome. Keep trucking.

@Jonny, I want to take a step back and apologize. I'm not just trying to be frustrating here. I understand what you have done and continue to do with the show, and I honestly appreciate it. I was a bit harsh early on and I understand/apologize for that, but I do feel like there's another side to the debate that has never truly been aired on the show... so in the context of all episodes on the subject, regardless of your attempt, the overarching sentiment that gets conveyed is A) 1 guy bashes a scene B) 3 guys maybe disagree maybe don't, but don't get too involved because they don't want to just argue. All of that is understandable. I do have an issue with you/James both essentially lumping the GCN controller hype into 'well that's what smasher's are used to so "it feels good to be pandered to"' when nearly everybody would have been happy with a wired WiiU Pro controller.. but I'm willing to chalk that up to a disagreement.
Regarding your last comment... a couple things stood out. Bringing up tournament Smash to eventually have it shut down/crapped on every.single.time. is not going to be a "win". Ignoring that Smash Bros is a game is not going to be a "win" (as you said). I think the real "win" that you're looking for would be to bring somebody on the show that IS a part of the tournament scene to have a 10-20 minute discussion on the series as a whole on the reasoning for tournament play / rulesets / character choices, etc AND wrap it up with a "here's what to expect from Smash 4 from a competitive mindset" discussion. I truly think this would be an interesting way to present the other side of the discussion, and at least some fans might be interested in learning how they can get involved early on, etc. I definitely think there are a huge number of fans who play the game only casually... and that's great. The games are great for that... BUT there are also a huge number of fans who DO care about the tournament scene, especially since the Melee Documentary. I understand reasons for not doing this, but I would ask you to give another voice on the topic before shutting it down completely. Again, I apologize for any frustration caused.

@James (if you're out there): To preface all of this, I actually agree with your comments on most other games and generally enjoy your segments on the show. Regarding Smash, I understand that you're trolling. You might actually believe your statements, and honestly, it's cool if you do. The problem is... you come off as telling people "customizing the game in this way is bad and not fun. You should ONLY customize it in THIS way!" There are competitive players that would probably say something similar to casuals.... but imo nobody should dictate that. If you have fun on FFA with all items on Very High... that's great. So do I. But there are people who have dedicated amazing amounts of time and money to keeping the games alive as a fair/competitive game (which they CAN be), and calling those people "terrible" is, frankly, offensive and stupid. Whether or not you agree with the scene, I don't see your point here in calling them down for playing the game in this way... "can't we all just get along?"

UnclebobJuly 10, 2014

in fairness there has been interest in introducing items to a competitive setting in some form.

It just hasn't taken off

I'll sign that petition!

BroodwarsJuly 10, 2014

Man if I was going to make a Jonny Action Figure what comes as the top of Page 2 and 3 would be something it say when pressing the voice button.  In a happy type of use care salesman voice.

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

Pile it on, guys!

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

I'll sign that petition!

BeautifulShyJuly 10, 2014

Man, Johnny... I'm VERY sorry about how this has all gone down. I probably should have thought up a different question that wouldn't have brought on all this negativity. I think in my head at the time by keeping the Smash talk to a minimum in my email I was hoping you'd maybe just launch into a discussion about controllers. I can't remember which episode it was, but James very much broke down the purpose behind the Gamecube controller's design philosophy. I remember he said something to the effect of "The Z-button was meant to be a menu button alone!" or something like that.

I love you guys. Really, I thought I was pretty much done with video game related podcasting after getting sick of both IGN's Nintendo Voice Chat and Gametrailer's Invisible Walls (Boy was it kinda a shock to my system when I found out Bloodworth was from around these parts!). I went dry on podcasts until one day I stumbled here due to youtube of all things referring me to one of Neal's 3DS Launch event videos and me wanting to go to the site to get more info, and... yeah, the rest is history. There isn't anybody better suited to host this gig than Johnny. His authoritative and no-nonsense approach makes him a natural leader, James Jones is a cynic that has such a penchant for trolling that it makes him ideal to play devil's advocate in a round-table discussion. Jon Lindymann is pretty good at keeping things with a light tone and does a pretty good job at representing games that tend to be out of at least my own gaming comfort zone, and whereas Greg was the introspective intellectual who's vocabulary did a wonderful job of putting into words the intangible gaming sensibilities that for the longest time I would be unable to explain. Gui however brings a more straightforward approach to the fourth wheel, and has his lady friend who it's always fascinating to hear how she digests a game alongside Gui. I guess the point of the love letter here is PLEASE DO NOT LET THE NEGATIVITY DISCOURAGE YOU FROM YOUR CURRENT ENDEAVORS

I'm glad you guys have fought so hard to understand and report for Super Smash Bros. in the way you have. I hope that that maybe some day I can make it up to you lot for all this. I'll make sure to think more carefully before I sent questions into the show. Like I did with the music one. You folks seemed to like that one and it probably didn't cause this much heat.

Not your fault! We chose to read it on the show. It was a good question and a worthy topic. Lately, I've been drawn more to potentially controversial emails on the show because I like jumping into a conversation when I don't know where it will go.

Oh, and I want to say to everyone who has written nice things about the show, my colleagues, or me -- thank you. It means a lot more than you realize. And to anyone who has criticized us -- thank you too. It can be very helpful, and I appreciate that you care enough to say something when you're not happy with the show.

NWR_KarlKarl Castaneda, Contributing EditorJuly 10, 2014

All I'm gonna say is that competitive Super Smash Bros. players are bad people who should feel bad.


Oh damn, what went down in thread town?



A couple points,


1: I know more than I let on. Earlier comments about Smash, specifically competitive Smash, are more pokes than stabs. I just disagree with the arguments that are used to explain the rule sets, which leads to #2.


2: Much of the arguments for the tournament rule set we've been emailed are "skilled play is hurt by items," which comes off as dismissive - managing risk (including items and stage hazards) is a skill. A different skill? Sure, but a skill no less. Learn the stages and the items and you can counter many of them. Are there some items (bombs specifically) that can spawn and one-hit-kill? Sure. However, the problem of these one-hit-kills is exacerbated by the "3-Stock" playstyle. Time or more stock both will allow the "randomness" to be diluted. And again, this is an edge case. You're talking about a small subset of items and for this concern to manifest they need to spawn in a very specific spot. While there may be an argument for deactivating those specific items - blanket "No Items" rules don't answer the question of specific issues with specific items - it is carpet bombing instead of surgery. I refuse to believe there are zero items in the playset that can be used without "breaking" competitive play.

The thread above is interesting, and I think some very solid points are made in it that I fully agree with (also, to point 1, I saw that thread years ago when it was in its infancy). With that said, the fact is that 29.1% of their users that voted in that poll voted no point blank. No review, no testing. Just no, and that's silly. It is a simple statment that Items are imbalanced because items are imbalanced. And again, the poll is literally about a PARALLEL rule structure to the current structure. And still, no.


I'll conclude with a recent post that sums up points I've made on the show before but are consistently dismissed. This is a post straight from the hive. Any arguments against my knowledge making me unqualified do not apply her (although I argue they don't apply anyway).


I think a valid argument for items that almost never gets brought up is that for tournament play to grow Smash needs to become more of a spectator sport - and most people who play Smash play with items on. The hardcore tourney goers are few and far between. Whenever someone mentions adding items back to the game and seemingly the entire response to it is negative it's largely because there is no inherent reason to express agreement. Tournament smash players have been the vocal minority for a community so far removed from them it borders on insanity. The average person owning a copy of any given Smash game will almost never play without items as the frantic pace and chaos is actually a selling point to the franchise.

With that said it does change the balance of the game dramatically. I won't say it imbalances the game (the game being more or less balanced depending on how you define balance), but changes the way you have to analyze it.








I hate the phrase eSports. I've made that clear in the past. I find watching most "eSport" games to be pretty dull. Competitive Starcraft makes me want to die. League and DOTA really aren't visually arresting if you're not deep into those games. Smash Bros, when played the way the VAST majority of people play it, is a tremendously fun thing to watch. It's like Las Vegas crapped a firework factory into a bonfire. To enshrine the undeniably less visually arresting version as THE eSport way sells the product short - in this case the product is both the "eSport" and the game itself.

You may not agree with me, but these are my opinions. The furor with which I deliver them is in no small part do the failure of anyone to articulate a counter to them that I find compelling. I find reliance on "skills" as the counterargument to be flat and dismissive of the "skills" of people who play the game the more traditional way.

To Jonny's point, regardless of the tone we use, regardless of what we say, we simply cannot avoid getting angry replies. So yes, I asked Jonny last night if we can avoid the topic of Smash at least until the 3DS game is released. If the person who agreed with me wants to out themselves that's their choice, but I was not alone.

I like Smash Bros quite a bit, but lately find that talking about it on the podcast to be a chore. And that's sad, because we don't get paid to do this. We do this because we love it. With that in mind it, like iPhone games before it, has become the kind of topic that I simply no longer wish to discuss.

And that's all I'm going to say on any of the above topics. Reply if you wish but I simply wont respond to it.


If you'd like to compare your Rec Rec compositions I'm all ears.

...also if you guys would like write some emails that make me feel more in my element I'd really appreciate it.




I'll give you some topics.



Music
The progression of color pallets with the increase in console memory
N64 strategy games released between October 1, 2000 and October 31, 2000
Japanese culture
Adventure Games/Visual Novels and the difference between the two
Software development
French breads
1918 Spring Offensive
Impact on the Council of Ephesus on future schismatic moments in the dissolution of a "unified" Christian brotherhood
Socio-economic-military relations between East Asian states and their Western allies/nonallies
Mario.

James,

For what it's worth, my comment was snark for snark's sake.  Even if you're well-informed, I don't care about anyone's opinion regarding tourney play. 

I don't understand why it's this podcast's responsibility to give a fair representation of the smash tourney scene.  I don't even agree with too much of RFN's opinions on the virtues of GameCube vs pro controllers and what changes need to take place for tourney play, but to say they need to have a guest panelist from the pro scene is rididculous.

The smash tourney scene is a niche portion of the overall player base of the game.  I'd argue that the only reason Nintendo's catering to the competitive players is because they're in such a piss-poor position with console sales that they know they need to court whomever they can to the Wii U fold.  If Wii U was selling like the Wii was, Nintendo wouldn't even acknowledge the rabid tourney base.

UnclebobJuly 10, 2014

Outside of character reveals or interesting news on the game itself it would probably be best to drop it.

Meanwhile I'm going to send an email about 'Impact on the Council of Ephesus on future schismatic moments in the dissolution of a "unified" Christian brotherhood' and how that relates to smash bros. :D

Syro-Malabar Catholics of Goa use items?

UnclebobJuly 10, 2014

Quote from: Crimm

Syro-Malabar Catholics of Goa use items?

Yes along with many other Catholics in the eastern part of the Church.

In fact the real reason for the eastern-western schism is because Pope Leo refused to allow the use of items in the Church's official Smash Bros. Tournaments.

InvaderRENJuly 11, 2014

GC Controller: I own 4. I used them for Melee. I used them for Brawl. Do I want to use them for Smash U? Of course!


It's just that simple. Anyone who loves smash owns 4 GC controllers... I don't care if the controller is not perfect. I don't care if it's 2014 and we are using a decade old controller. I use a GC controller for smash. All my friends do too.


Nintendo will let me use my 4 GC controllers for Smash U?


THANK YOU.


Clean off the dust, the Smash controllers are about to go round 3!!!!!!

BeautifulShyJuly 11, 2014

Quote from: InvaderREN

GC Controller: I own 4. I used them for Melee. I used them for Brawl. Do I want to use them for Smash U? Of course!


It's just that simple. Anyone who loves smash owns 4 GC controllers... I don't care if the controller is not perfect. I don't care if it's 2014 and we are using a decade old controller. I use a GC controller for smash. All my friends do too.


Nintendo will let me use my 4 GC controllers for Smash U?


THANK YOU.


Clean off the dust, the Smash controllers are about to go round 3!!!!!!

Round 4; you can use them with the VC port of Smash 64 for melee/brawl-like controls.

My worry is that companies will actually support this thing outside of Smash 4 and we'll get people playing with GCN controllers and subbing other controllers again. if this adapter gets more widespread support, Nintendo has screwed themselves out of selling more pro controllers, which would be more profitable then selling htis dongle and letting people fool around with their 10+ year old controllers.

Admittingly, I say this, and I too will be a part of the problem. Sonic Colors? Played that with a Gamecube Controller. La Mulana? GCN controller as well. Klonoa: Journey to Phantomile? Muramasa? Mario Kart Wii? NiGHTS? Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom? GCN Controller every time because while I might have been teathered to the console, it just felt so good. I didn't have to reach awkwardly for buttons or feel cramped like I did with the tiny classic controller, which I felt could have been so much better if they made it a little bit wider. the handles on the GCN controller feel so natural to grip, the analogue shoulders are responsive with a gentle tap that still gives enough resistance for me to respect. the 8-direction notched mold with the analogues allow for percision in the cardinal directions, which quite a few games are designed around.

You know another controller i really don't like? The Xbox 360 controller. the bumpers don't depress enough and feel very cheap, almost every 360 controller I have owned has shit face buttons that get mushy very quickly, the analoge triggers don't exactly feel great and I miss the click or them having that groove to fit your fingers, the D-pat is complete and utter shit, and the 4 little nubby nub things that are meant to be a grip for your finger wear down SO quickly... whereas with the gamecube controller, the circular 'ripple' styled rubber grip for your finger has dulled, but never completley worn off so I'm not slipping around.

This is why the Wii U pro controller never sounded appealing to me, promises of a decent D-pad aside. there's a reason why I downloaded Motionjoy for my computer and have been using a dualshock 3 controller for my PC gaming rather than a 360 pad, and even then I'm not satisfied because I've never been the huget fan of the analogues on the Dualshock series controller either.

fenrir_VIIJuly 11, 2014

@James: Thanks for the post. Airing it that way makes sense, and I get what you're saying, and aside from preferences here and there, I don't disagree with anything you're saying. Although I might argue that the majority of Melee players at this point might be current tournament players (conjecture and unimportant), this certainly won't be the case for Smash 4, so there is a potential for change.


For anybody who's not aware, the current rulesets were developed with a good deal of trial and error... the early Melee rulesets actually had items on. The issues occurred (in tournament) fairly frequently, where exploding boxes/capsules/etc would literally fall out of the sky on one person's head, and you couldn't turn boxes/capsules off in the options. The problem occurred that nobody would want to travel/spend time+money for a tournament where one random occurrence would end their run... so the scene would have died.
To James' point, you can minimize this with having more stock, etc... but if you and your opponent are roughly equal and the game decides to bop you only.. you get my point. It leaves a bad taste in the players' (and spectators') mouths.


With Brawl, there actually was the option to turn off all exploding items, eliminating the insta-death threat. But people get stuck once a standard is developed, so the "no items" methodology was adopted from the start. I'll say that it is very likely that the majority of Smash 4 tournaments early on will do the same thing...
But here's where people can actually make a difference. People can argue til they're blue in the fingertips on websites like Smashboards, etc... but the way to make a change is through doing tournaments and having people come and enjoy themselves. In a typical competitive environment, "random" is usually associated with "unfair", but it's possible that isn't the case.


If people are able to have tournaments with items that other people actually consistently attend, then the scene will have to shift. Period. But it's going to be on the people who care to actually make these tournaments happen. The tournament organizer can put whatever ruleset he wants, and people will come if they are interested. I know I would personally attend an items-on tournament anywhere near me. To this point, I am actually planning a tournament in SC for the next few months. This tournament WILL have an items-on event (in addition to a standard-ruleset event). I don't think everybody is opposed to items... but the current competitive players tend to prefer them off. If you want to change minds, show people something different. There's a huge audience for the new games... the time for a change (if one is going to happen) is now.
Essentially I'm saying... you want an items-on tournament? Make one, instead of complaining that the tournament rules don't allow them. You aren't limited by that. (note: this isn't directed at anybody in particular)

UnclebobJuly 11, 2014

It's interesting because in the link I posted the main reason they felt the pokeball wasn't suitable to a competitive environment due to the disruptive nature of some of the legends but now that the legends have been seperated ftom the group and given their own ball... coincidence maybe...

Fiendlord_TimmayJuly 11, 2014

Quote:

I'll give you some topics.



Music
The progression of color pallets with the increase in console memory
N64 strategy games released between October 1, 2000 and October 31, 2000
Japanese culture
Adventure Games/Visual Novels and the difference between the two
Software development
French breads
1918 Spring Offensive
Impact on the Council of Ephesus on future schismatic moments in the dissolution of a "unified" Christian brotherhood
Socio-economic-military relations between East Asian states and their Western allies/nonallies
Mario.

And this is why I love James. XD

Quote:

My worry is that companies will actually support this thing outside of Smash 4 and we'll get people playing with GCN controllers and subbing other controllers again.

Why are you worried about this? This is exactly what I'm hoping for. In my opinion, the Gamecube controller is the best controller Nintendo has ever made, and I would like the option of playing games with it. I loved that I was allowed to play so many Wii games with whatever control option I liked best. If new Wii U games start adding Gamecube controller support, why do you care? Use the Pro controller if you want and I'll use the Gamecube controller. That's the great thing about options, you get to choose what works best for you.

daverhodusJuly 11, 2014

At least I avoided this Smash discussion.

NotMarioJuly 11, 2014

While I'm not one if those people that thinks the GameCube controller is the best ever (as it does have some significant problems), I still really like certain elements from it. If Nintendo ever makes a console with a traditional controller again I think they would be wise to iterate on some of the GameCube controller's features.
For me, it's main problems are the terrible Z button (and the lack of having a left shoulder Z button) and the C stick being a little nub instead of a full, normal analogue stick.

If they took the good elements like the mush-click L and R triggers while adding proper L and R shoulder buttons, keep the same comfortable grip and change the C stick to a normal stick I think they would really have one of the best controllers. The weird ABXY button layout I can live with or without, though I know most people like the traditional SNES diamond configuration (and we're all just more used to it at this point), so if they ever took inspiration from the GameCube controller they'd probably be best to keep the ABYX buttons in the diamond configuration.

While I agree with you guys that Nintendo shouldn't keep stringing the GameCube controller along for every console, I think that controller had some great features and elements that I'd like to see come back since nobody has really done some things like its mush-click shoulder buttons since. That is, unless you count their useless inclusion on the original Wii Classic Controller. Basically what I'm saying is give me L and R buttons like the GameCube.

BeautifulShyJuly 11, 2014

Quote from: Fiendlord_Timmay

Quote:

I'll give you some topics.



Music
The progression of color pallets with the increase in console memory
N64 strategy games released between October 1, 2000 and October 31, 2000
Japanese culture
Adventure Games/Visual Novels and the difference between the two
Software development
French breads
1918 Spring Offensive
Impact on the Council of Ephesus on future schismatic moments in the dissolution of a "unified" Christian brotherhood
Socio-economic-military relations between East Asian states and their Western allies/nonallies
Mario.

And this is why I love James. XD

Quote:

My worry is that companies will actually support this thing outside of Smash 4 and we'll get people playing with GCN controllers and subbing other controllers again.

Why are you worried about this? This is exactly what I'm hoping for. In my opinion, the Gamecube controller is the best controller Nintendo has ever made, and I would like the option of playing games with it. I loved that I was allowed to play so many Wii games with whatever control option I liked best. If new Wii U games start adding Gamecube controller support, why do you care? Use the Pro controller if you want and I'll use the Gamecube controller. That's the great thing about options, you get to choose what works best for you.


Because I'm very afraid that my GCN controllers will not last forever. XD I know they're reprinting the one Smash Bros. patterned one, but like... as nice as options are, I feel like all of this muddles the Wii U's identity further than it already is muddled.

I figured I would chime in as someone who followed this podcast before joining staff and someone who enjoys tourny rules Smash.
 
This podcast does not try to put itself out there as if all the opinions of the host and panelists are facts.  They are opinions.  As a fan of games in general I enjoy to listen to a variety of podcasts, some of which I have very differing views on games than those involved in the podcast.  Even RFN is one of those podcasts.  Personally I despise Metroid style games, however from listening to Johnny for a while I have at least gained an appreciation for them as a genre and a vital part of Nintendo history.

With Smash and the Gamecube controller, the RFN team is just offering their own opinion.  I enjoy playing Smash without the items and think the Gamecube controller is the superior input device for the game.  However, I understand that the likely hood is that many people find that controller to be a step backwards, and technically it is... that thing is over 10 years old now.  Listening to opinions I disagree with gets me to think differently and try things I would never try otherwise, even if my opinion stays the same.

As far as the structure of the people on RFN I think Johnny does a great job hosting.  The job of a host is to facilitate conversation and keep things on task and RFN is easily one of the most organized podcasts I listen to.  Listen to Episode 103 for an example of what happens without direction :p.

Quote from: Crimm

So yes, I asked Jonny last night if we can avoid the topic of Smash at least until the 3DS game is released. If the person who agreed with me wants to out themselves that's their choice, but I was not alone.

This was me. I'm tired of the topic because I feel it's gone well past the point of offering constructive - or more importantly interesting or entertaining - discussion.  It's moved into "prove a point" territory which by its very nature means that it's extremely important to a few people but mostly unimportant for the majority of our audience.  It's become an "issue", which we never meant it to be, and I want to derail that before it goes any further.

Like somebody else said above, it's not our responsibility to give Smash tourney players a "fair shake". As the only real MMO player on the show, Gui, James, and Jonny have routinely trolled the genre but I don't get up in arms over it. I don't feel the need to "prove" to them the legitimacy of the genre. I simply let them wallow in their ignorance, pitying them as the saved might pity the doomed.  Forgive them MMO Lord, for they know not what they do. I'd love it for the Smash Tourney players to adopt the same smug, holier-than-thou attitude, hahaha.

We all have different likes, but I think we can all agree, fuck League!

Adrock¸July 12, 2014

Once you understand some of the basics of DOTA, watching those MOBA games can be kind of fun. Honest!

Jo351July 13, 2014

Quote from: Crimm

We all have different likes, but I think we can all agree, **** League!

Nah, League is great.  One of my most played games!

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