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Episode 262: Where Pride Goes

by James Jones, Greg Leahy, Jon Lindemann, and Jonathan Metts - October 9, 2011, 10:10 am PDT
Total comments: 53

Games are coming out this fall, or so I hear.

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This week's episode begins with an unusually topical New Business, as all four regular podcasters show up with a new release for one of Nintendo's platforms (plus a few other goodies as well). James kicks it off by sharing his slight disappointment with Solatorobo, the furry-filled 2DS mascot platformer. He also caps off an 80-hour journey through Xenoblade even as Jonny's copy finally arrives. Lindy has been active this past week, putting considerable time into the remade Zelda Four Swords while also checking out Demon's Souls and the Uncharted 3 beta. Jonny heaps praise upon the recent 3DS Virtual Console release of Super Mario Land 2 and checks out a very cool PSN exclusive called Rochard. After sharing impressions of several previously mentioned games, Greg takes the stage for himself to wrap up his thoughts on Aliens: Infestation, just in time for the game's American launch.

Part 2 is our inconsistently annual Fall Games Preview, as we take turns highlighting various bright spots in the ultimately questionable release lineup for Nintendo's platforms through the end of this year. Rather than list all the games mentioned here, I'll direct your attention to the right sidebar, which has links to NWR's complete coverage of every game discussed on the show. Give it a try! Also, be sure to vote now for your pick in the latest RetroActive election -- the deadline is this Thursday, Oct. 13 so don't delay! You can also email us your thoughts or questions right here.

This podcast was edited by Greg Leahy.

Music for this episode of Radio Free Nintendo is used with permission from Jason Ricci & New Blood. You can purchase their newest album, Done with the Devil, directly from the record label, Amazon (CD) (MP3), or iTunes, or call your local record store and ask for it!

Additional music for this episode of Radio Free Nintendo is copyrighted to Nintendo, and is included under fair use protection.

Talkback

happyastoriaOctober 09, 2011

I'm assuming Greg has never played Demon's Souls? Strange, doesn't he like difficult games? Anyway, the first boss can be killed in 20 seconds, all you have to use is fire - that's it.

I'm playing Dark Souls and  it may be the greatest game ever made - yup, that's how much I love the game. Greg, give it a shot if you haven't played it. I would love to hear your thoughts! The game is very similar to Zelda.

On the topic of Skyward Sword: No one has said a word about the music! The music in the "romance" trailer is simply beautiful! And I can't wait to get the soundtrack.

Dr. Metts, is there any chance for a Majora's Mask retro-active? I'm dying for one! It would make my day! I know I'm not alone in this!  :D

Majora's Mask is probably the single most requested RetroActive game. Maybe we'll do it sometime when we feel like just picking a game -- I don't think it would be fair to put it in a poll.

broodwarsOctober 09, 2011

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

Majora's Mask is probably the single most requested RetroActive game. Maybe we'll do it sometime when we feel like just picking a game -- I don't think it would be fair to put it in a poll.

Yeah, Majora's Mask is a game that's better suited to another RFN Special like Ocarina had.  RetroActive should be for games that were possibly overlooked back in their day and deserve another look.  For the most part, I think it's served that purpose despite some big Nintendo franchises popping up during its run.

Kytim89October 10, 2011

I am going to make a prediction here and say that Skyward Sword will earn a perfect score from Famitsu magazine. Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker have already done this and it is over due for a console Zelda game to earn the award.

NeoStar9XOctober 10, 2011

I do wonder if there is a real possibility for Skyward Sword to seriously under sell. Not because it isn't a great game but because of the consumer base that Nintendo itself has created and at the same time alienated since the Wii has been out. It can be argued that Nintendo, do to it's own actions, drove certain types of gamers away from the system. Other systems were putting out games that were appealing. Not in terms of HD but just in terms of genres and quality. Third parties certainly weren't doing that on the Wii outside some very rare cases.  It's not like those gamers don't have options now as well either come this holiday season. Skyrim being the biggest threat in the RPG/Action adventure space. Modern Warfare 3 being a huge attention grabber and being the first thing many gamers will spend money on before anything else. Then you have games like Uncharted 3. I think there could be a LOT of crossover there and many gamers will feel, do to past Wii experiences, that Zelda isn't worth their time. Not because they hate the series or anything but simply because the PS3 or 360 has treated them as gamers a significantly better this generation. They could feel their attention and money is better spent on those system then going back to the Wii.

I think this is more of a possibility if Nintendo doesn't go crazy with advertising for the game to convince gamers it's worth their time and effort to buy the game. You can bet other companies will for their game and will do so in prime time. Nintendo of America is horrible at this.

What I wonder is if Zelda fails to gain the success they want will they fully understand why? Will they understand it isn't the game's fault but their own and how they've built the Wii audience and maintained or didn't maintain it until it was to late? The quality of the game simply won't be a factor I feel in the end. 

KDR_11kOctober 10, 2011

I'm not too sure about skyward sword but I haven't been following the footage at all. We'll see how it pans out.

No idea if Greg is into playing random bullet hell games but recently I've been playing the games of the Gundemonium Collection. They scale from fairly doable to insanely hard depending on the difficulty you choose (and how you handle the "phase level" system that determines the actual difficulty in the game and moves based on specific actions in the game).

Do those 80 hours of Xenoblade include additional sidequesting since the last time or did you really manage to stave that off until you beat the game? There's quite a lot of depth to those sidequest locations.

I'm torn between getting Skyward Sword and importing a copy of Xenoblade.  A part of me has really wanted to dive into a meaty RPG experience, since my last non-MMO RPG that I’ve invested heavily into was Final Fantasy XII, and NWR has pushed the needle from mild interest to potentially taking the plunge on my first import purchase. 

The other half of me wants to have a new Zelda experience, as the last Zelda game I completed was Ocarina of Time 3D (Wind Waker is a WIP, and I don’t own Majora’s Mask), and the little info I’ve read on the game has really whet my appetite. 

Add another tally to the people who are surprised Greg hasn’t delved into Demon’s Souls.  It really is a game that has a steep learning curve, but not to the point where you think the game is unfair, or that you can blame the game for cheapness.  It’s a game that I should really pick back up, because I only got to the 3rd world, and only stopped because of not having much free time.

DropkikOctober 10, 2011

I'm surprised James wasn't seemingly aware the new Ace Combat comes out tomorrow (Tuesday, October 11)

Why do you think James hasn't posted in this thread today?  It's because he's camped out at Gamestop for a midnight release, wearing a full flightsuit.

As for Demon's Souls, the first boss is extremely easy when using firebombs or the Silver Catalyst (that's what I used).  The Tower Knight, on the other hand...

The thing that sucks you into Demon's Souls is the fact that at no point do you feel like you shouldn't be able to beat any particular area.  Because the enemies are always in the same place and the same things generally always happen the same way, you get into "Oh man, I would totally destroy this area if I just did THAT in THIS way" territory.  At that point the game has you, it's over.

Quote from: NWR_Lindy

As for Demon's Souls, the first boss is extremely easy when using firebombs or the Silver Catalyst (that's what I used).  The Tower Knight, on the other hand...

The thing that sucks you into Demon's Souls is the fact that at no point do you feel like you shouldn't be able to beat any particular area.  Because the enemies are always in the same place and the same things generally always happen the same way, you get into "Oh man, I would totally destroy this area if I just did THAT in THIS way" territory.  At that point the game has you, it's over.

I beat the Phalanx with my sword alone because I wanted to conserve all my items, but all I ended up doing was grinding souls to upgrade my weapon/armor until I was able to grind out a victory.  I got better at recognizing patterns against the 2nd (Tower Knight) and 3rd boss (Armor Spider).  Strategies in this game often employ MMO-style combat, as in trying to pull aggro from one skeleton at a time from a horde so you don't get overwhelmed, because once you have to manage several enemies, you're most likely in big trouble.

I love how the game sort of piques your curiosity, but most of the time it's at your peril.  when I first encountered the red eye knight in the first level, I couldn't help but try to kill him.  I died miserably, but I didn't go forward until I killed him.  And he wasn't even a boss.  That game is good for those who have persistence, because every little victory is so rewarding after putting in so much effort.

EnnerOctober 10, 2011

I will be interested to hear what Jon and perhaps Jonathan think of Star Wars: The Old Republic and Bioware's Star Wars games. I played some of the game in a recent beta invitation. The game plays very similarly to World of Warcraft in its controls, levels, quests, abilities, and other major systems. The one unique thing that sticks out to me is a companion NPC that follows and helps you. You can customize your companion's equipment and crafting skills. For what I've played of the beta, SW:TOR is good if you want a Star-Wars-themed WoW where all the quest dialog is voice acted.

Quote from: Dropkik

I'm surprised James wasn't seemingly aware the new Ace Combat comes out tomorrow (Tuesday, October 11)

I mentioned it off the air, as it were, but I'm not greatly excited for that game. I mean, I'm going to play it, but it isn't a proper Ace Combat game. It's a spin-off, and I'm not going to pay $60 for it (or any game, really).

CericOctober 10, 2011

Quote from: Enner

I will be interested to hear what Jon and perhaps Jonathan think of Star Wars: The Old Republic and Bioware's Star Wars games. I played some of the game in a recent beta invitation. The game plays very similarly to World of Warcraft in its controls, levels, quests, abilities, and other major systems. The one unique thing that sticks out to me is a companion NPC that follows and helps you. You can customize your companion's equipment and crafting skills. For what I've played of the beta, SW:TOR is good if you want a Star-Wars-themed WoW where all the quest dialog is voice acted.

That doesn't sound to great.  I mean Rift is a good take on what WoW setup but I couldn't get a max level character simply because the game was way to depressing.  WoW I like the Lore, Universe, and they like to take shots at themselves and joke around.  Though even that isn't holding my attention because of content drought.

SW:TOR what is the tone like?  Does it take itself to series?  From what I've read from Bioware it really sounds like a single player game till you get to the end.

shinyray01October 10, 2011

Quote from: Crimm

Quote from: Dropkik

I'm surprised James wasn't seemingly aware the new Ace Combat comes out tomorrow (Tuesday, October 11)

I mentioned it off the air, as it were, but I'm not greatly excited for that game. I mean, I'm going to play it, but it isn't a proper Ace Combat game. It's a spin-off, and I'm not going to pay $60 for it (or any game, really).


Wow i thought you would be into that franchise as much as the layton series as said in this podcast. which I'm curious to know is which of the Ace Combat game is your favorite one?

EnnerOctober 10, 2011

Quote from: Crimm

I mentioned it off the air, as it were, but I'm not greatly excited for that game. I mean, I'm going to play it, but it isn't a proper Ace Combat game. It's a spin-off, and I'm not going to pay $60 for it (or any game, really).

I hope it's a spin off even though I enjoyed the demo. However, the director of the series has made comments of Assault Horizon being a rebirth or reboot of the series. I'm curious how the new game will be received and what it will entail for the future of Ace Combat.

Quote from: Ceric

SW:TOR what is the tone like?  Does it take itself to series?  From what I've read from Bioware it really sounds like a single player game till you get to the end.

From the three beginner planets I've played, it takes itself as serious as the Knights of the Old Republic game. So it's fairly serious but not too depressing, mean, or rough like Mass Effect can be. The set up for the game consists of an uneasy peace after the return of the Sith empire invades Republic space, sacks Coruscant, and kill most of the Jedi in the Jedi temple. It's a sad and uneasy beginning for the player character to play hero in his/her class story. I haven't played deep in to any particular character class (I only left the beginner planet of one class after two sessions of 3-5 hours each). So far, it seems that you will be able to solo the class story quests. For general/shared quests and content, there are low-level quests and instances that need a party.

broodwarsOctober 10, 2011

I read and listen to all the hype for The Old Republic, and honestly I really don't understand it.  Despite all the CG Trailers and whatnot that try to pretend the game is going to be otherwise, the actual gameplay looks like it's going to look and play just like WoW with a Star Wars skin.  And watching footage of WoW, that gameplay looks spectacularly boring.  But hey, I've never really been into MMOs, where apparently everyone mainly cares about the number of characters in a room rather than making what they're doing look interesting.

I'd really much rather have Knights of the Old Republic 3 than this MMO.  *sigh* It's a pity that apparently my stories from KoToRs 1 and 2 are going to be wasted by being resolved in a frickin' MMO I will never play.

I don't compare things like Layton to Ace Combat. A big part of the charm of Ace Combat is how utterly over the top it is. Go back and rewatch the first video of 6. It's HILARIOUS. It's only topped by "Gentlemen, I don't think there is a woman on Earth who could resist us now. It's just a very base form of fun.


Enner, the word that I heard used was "spin-off" and the comment I heard was "this isn't Ace Combat 7."

PlugabugzOctober 10, 2011

If the opening 30 seconds does not spawn a deluge of GREG LEA-HEE-HOOO parodies in both the funhouse and the RFN inbox i'm going to be disappointed.

EnnerOctober 11, 2011

Quote from: Crimm

I don't compare things like Layton to Ace Combat. A big part of the charm of Ace Combat is how utterly over the top it is. Go back and rewatch the first video of 6. It's HILARIOUS. It's only topped by "Gentlemen, I don't think there is a woman on Earth who could resist us now." It's just a very base form of fun.

Enner, the word that I heard used was "spin-off" and the comment I heard was "this isn't Ace Combat 7."

The latter is what I heard as well. In the same developer interview video (the first one, if I recall correctly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0T3adBRw70 ), the producer and director calls Assault Horizon the rebirth of the series. Hmm, I'm wondering if the new systems like Dogfight Mode and regenerating health will stick.

The trailers for Ace Combat games always make me giddy. Enough that I have watched them several times. Recently I was able to thoroughly play Ace Combat 6: Fires of Liberation. The many utterances of the phrase "dance with the angels" didn't bother me as much as it did other people. In fact, I got kinda in to it. Oh dear, I don't know if it's a good thing to build a tolerance to English-localized versions of Japanese stories. As for the game itself, Ace Combat 6 doesn't top Ace Combat 5: The Unsung War of being the overall best of the series.

ejamerOctober 11, 2011

Quote from: lolmonade

I'm torn between getting Skyward Sword and importing a copy of Xenoblade.  ...

Nice! I've been kicking around buying Skyward Sword, but don't really care that much about it since I never bothered to finish Twilight Princess (or Phantom Hourglass). But when you put the argument this way, it makes importing a game that I actually want so much easier to jusitfy.

Quote from: Crimm

Both!


Not everyone is sitting on a pile of the NWR war chest funded by all these banner ads.

ejamerOctober 11, 2011

Quote from: lolmonade

Quote from: Crimm

Both!


Not everyone is sitting on a pile of the NWR war chest funded by all these banner ads.

So true.


I'm struggling to choose one game - not necessarily a new release - from a handful that look great for the upcoming holiday season. Xenoblade, Zelda Skyward Sword, and Super Mario Galaxy 2 lead the way on Wii. But I'm also tempted to grab Radiant Historia or Star Fox 64 3D for my 3DS. Picking one (two as an absolute max) from that list isn't easy.


I'm also wary about importing since that's virgin gaming territory for me. But nobody else seems to be having issues, so how hard can it be?

broodwarsOctober 11, 2011

Quote from: ejamer

Quote from: lolmonade

Quote from: Crimm

Both!


Not everyone is sitting on a pile of the NWR war chest funded by all these banner ads.

So true.


I'm struggling to choose one game - not necessarily a new release - from a handful that look great for the upcoming holiday season. Xenoblade, Zelda Skyward Sword, and Super Mario Galaxy 2 lead the way on Wii. But I'm also tempted to grab Radiant Historia or Star Fox 64 3D for my 3DS. Picking one (two as an absolute max) from that list isn't easy.


I'm also wary about importing since that's virgin gaming territory for me. But nobody else seems to be having issues, so how hard can it be?

Actually, I was setting my Wii up to play Xenoblade last night, and I had a lot of trouble getting the software to install until I used a fresh SD card with nothing on it.  So while the installation is easy, it can be tricky.

But seriously, if you want to buy 2 Wii games, get Mario Galaxy 2 (you should be able to find it for pretty cheap these days) and Xenoblade.  If you want to mix-and-match console/handheld games, I would swap out Mario Galaxy 2 for Radiant Historia.  Nintendo of America has not earned our money this year, so I don't recommend Skyward Sword until you can either find it discounted or used.

NinSageOctober 11, 2011

Another stellar episode.  Best podcast on the interwebs. Responses...

1. Jonny, did you beat all the Epic Yarn levels with the highest bead requirements?  That's where (I felt) the challenge in the game was.  It was nice because it was as if every level gave the option of a hard mode or an easy mode depending on how you wanted to play at that time.  Wanna just clear the stage? Easy. Wanna clear the stage with the highest bead level? Hard(er). 

2. I love that James burns through games like I do.  It's great having a podcast crew with such a range of game consumption.  That way, we don't just get one perspective all the time.

3. Oh Lindy, do not be part of the DLC problem! That Subway bullshit is evil!  James has the right idea.  But, throw the developers or marketers or whoever comes up with these DLC rip-offs off the building!

4. hahah Around 25 mins into the podcast, "you all suck" and "robot" from James outta no where made me burst out laughing!

5. I played through Super Mario Land a billion times because it was one of the few games I had at the time. Though I clearly loved it at the time, it is very, very, very primitive and sure stretched the definition of a "Mario platformer".

6. Wario Land Shake It was so good it got me interested in that whole series.  We bought WarioWorld for GC but... haven't played it yet =P

7. I looked up Rochard.  Looks like great gameplay, but I'm too much of a narrative-whore to get behind a game with such a doofy protagonist.  But yea, most gamers should really like its concepts.

8. Okami Wii U would be amazing.  Moving on...

9. I never got in to the Alien(s) films.  Infestation looks like an amazing game but it would probably hook me better if it was a new IP (narrative) instead of the liscence.  Again, that's just me.

10. Horizon Riders was my most highly anticipated WiiWare game.  Now it looks like it will simply be my most disappointing.  If anyone wants details I'll gladly provide them.  =(

11. I'll be getting some 3DS games for XMas (Kart for sure!), but I'm waiting to get the system itself until the white or green versions hit the states.

12. I will stop buying new Layton games when I stop finding them extremely awesome.  Enough said.

13. Shattered dimensions seemed pretty awesome for a SpiderMan game.  EoT looks as good if not better, but I will be missing the black suit!

14. Like some of the crew, I keep myself in the dark about games I'm really looking forward too. Skyward Sword is no exception. I will also be getting the Special Edition with the controller.  Can't wait!

15. I would truly, truly love full voice acting in Nintendo franchises.  I mean, a "deep" genre like Zelda is just begs for it and even something like the Mario games? There are already designated voices/actors for all those characters... why not just let them say more than one or two words at a time!?

However, I absolutely loved how Nintendo took that plunge with Other M.  But instead of being understanding and grateful for a first (admittedly shakey) step in the right direction, gamers sharpened their pitchforks and lit their torches so I'm sure that doomed us to at least 5-10 more years of clicking through text.  Way to go, irrational gamers! =\

To clarify....
Not what I wanted: "To me, this is a piece of crap but it's good for the medium so I'll pretend to like it."
What I wanted: "To me, this is a piece of crap but it's good for the medium so I will use that to remain level-headed in my critiques."
What happened: "This is a piece of crap! Why did they make Samus a bed-wetting little bitch!? Soldiers don't cry!! Why isn't Samus wearing her Master Chief armor!? RAAAAAAAA!!!!"

Da JarvisOctober 11, 2011


You know, this may sound strange, but I actually haven't been watching any footage of Skyward Sword aside from seeing the trailer at the E3 Press Conference. This might be because I got way to hyped after seeing and learning everything I had about Twilight Princess before I had actually gotten the game bundled with my Wii when I bought it that holiday. They only thing I have read and the main thing that got me hyped about the game was when Miyamoto was quoted saying, "I am adding something that was missing from Wind Waker..." That quote alone has been reasurance that this will indeed be a great title, as Wind Waker is probably my favorite Console Zelda out of all of them. Either way, I am ready to finally get my long awaited "Zelda Break" xD.


On the note of the 3DS, I have to say that I agree with Jon Lindemann on this one, as I too feel that the 3DS still has yet to get a veriaty of games that makes me willing to run out and by a 3DS. With my library of DS and GBA games still growing, I still haven't seen one game that would make me want to dish out the 200 bucks (system plus game/points) to join the 3DS crowd. I mean, don't get me wrong, I really like some of the features and the fact the E-Shop is expanding to NES and GBA games is awesome and all, but if the 3DS could manage to get both a long lasting RPG like a Pokemon game or something like Radiant Historia or Dragon Quest game AND get some other interesting and unquie titles that aren't remakes of games I already own mulitple versions of (Metal Gear, Zelda OoT, ect), I think this would be a different story. Once I start seeing the unique games (Maybe a new Metroid?) like the ones that had me  investing in a DS Lite (Zelda Spirit Tracks, Ace Attorney, Radiant Historia, Ghost Trick, Pokemon Platinum, Ect), then I will be happy to jump in the crowd with everyone else.

Spider-Man: Edge of Time is total crap. I'm sorry whoever (Jonny?) has any interest in this.

Zach should be reviewing the DS version (in the mail). It's developed by Other Ocean (Dark Void Zero guys). Maybe that isn't total crap. The other versions, sadly, are.

Quote from: Da

You know, this may sound strange, but I actually haven't been watching any footage of Skyward Sword aside from seeing the trailer at the E3 Press Conference. This might be because I got way to hyped after seeing and learning everything I had about Twilight Princess before I had actually gotten the game bundled with my Wii when I bought it that holiday. They only thing I have read and the main thing that got me hyped about the game was when Miyamoto was quoted saying, "I am adding something that was missing from Wind Waker..." That quote alone has been reasurance that this will indeed be a great title, as Wind Waker is probably my favorite Console Zelda out of all of them. Either way, I am ready to finally get my long awaited "Zelda Break" xD.

I've been on a media blackout (E3 this year notwithstanding) since June of 2010. Don't feel bad.

Quote from: Shaymin

I've been on a media blackout (E3 this year notwithstanding) since June of 2010. Don't feel bad.

It's about a dude in green, who uses a sword.


From the sky.

NinSage:


I did everything in Kirby Epic Yarn except the hide-and-seek games, which are boring. At no point does the game become hard, and in fact I got most of the treasures and gold medals without even trying to do so. There are few levels that you have to play differently at all to clear 100%, with the bosses being notable and greatly appreciated exceptions.


You are completely off-base with Other M. If the writing and acting are poor, I will say so and take zero responsibility for Nintendo's future decisions on whether to add voice to their productions. If you're going to do something, do it well. Nintendo did not meet that basic standard of quality in certain aspects of Other M. As I said on the show, putting bad voices in Zelda would not solve the problem of the game lacking production value. It's only worth doing if you do it properly, and that's what they should do.

NinSageOctober 11, 2011

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

I did everything in Kirby Epic Yarn except the hide-and-seek games, which are boring. At no point does the game become hard, and in fact I got most of the treasures and gold medals without even trying to do so. There are few levels that you have to play differently at all to clear 100%, with the bosses being notable and greatly appreciated exceptions.


*shrug*

OK, well, it certainly is one of the easiest games of all time (no dying and all), I just wanted to make sure you were also counting the "hard(er)" parts.  So you were, so we're good - sorry you didn't enjoy it more!



Quote from: Jonnyboy117

You are completely off-base with Other M.


This whole court is out of order! *ahem*... please continue...

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

If the writing and acting are poor, I will say so...


Good, I believe my "what I wanted" category says to do just that.

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

...and take zero responsibility for Nintendo's future decisions on whether to add voice to their productions.


But, if you want voice acting, why not voice your critiques in a way that ultimately gets you what you want?

If the bridge to your destination isn't to your liking, why burn it down instead of suggest a better one?

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

If you're going to do something, do it well. Nintendo did not meet that basic standard of quality in certain aspects of Other M. As I said on the show, putting bad voices in Zelda would not solve the problem of the game lacking production value. It's only worth doing if you do it properly, and that's what they should do.

Other M had 2 voice-related problems... The dialogue was written and delivered in a melodramatic manner and when Sakamoto revealed Samus' character, half the audience didn't like what they saw (for myriad reasons).

I would propose applying the same scrutiny to any modern game that attempts drama with large amounts of voiced dialogue.  They don't come off as melodramatic?

If Other M was a new IP, would Samus' character really have been that shocking?

And keep in mind Other M did not betray the character of Samus (as some have suggested).  The Samus depicted in Other M is the real deal.  Try reading the dialogue from 2004's Metroid Fusion out loud.  Shocking, isn't it?
There's also the manga Sakamoto supervised back in '02.  Some of the most "shocking" scenes in Other M are ripped right from those pages.  The worst offense Other M really committed was that the Western audiences weren't prepared for it.

broodwarsOctober 11, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

The worst offense Other M really committed was that the Western audiences weren't prepared for it.

Actually, the worst offense Other M committed was not being a very good game, and that its director was interested only in making his pet project rather than a good game.

And something Sakamoto needs to come to understand (as many creators do), is that after a product or character has existed in the public's eye for a period of time, it no longer belongs only to the creator.  The depiction of Samus in Other M is both a betrayal to the fans and to the character's own history in the Metroid series.  The Samus in Other M does not exist in any other Metroid game, even Fusion.  The consumer is King and the consumer has said that that character is not Samus Aran, and so it shall be.  But we've been over this, and I'm not particularly interested in rehashing why Other M isn't a very good game, even if it was a game I enjoyed in spite of its many flaws.

I think the lesson Nintendo needs to take away from Other M was that the fans didn't hate the voice acting because they hate voice acting.  They hated it because the Other M voice acting was horrendous in terms of performance, a performance apparently specifically ordered by Nintendo corporate and Sakamoto.  That doesn't mean that voice acting is a bad move, and I welcome real attempts by Nintendo to get it right because they have been way behind the curve on this for way too long.

Incidentally, on the subject of the Uncharted 3 Subway thing, if I understand the situation correctly you go into Subway and buy a sandwich.  You get a code that allows you to play Uncharted 3 multiplayer before the game releases, and you get a special taunt that has your character doing the "5 Dollar Foot Long" hand gesture.  That doesn't appeal to me since I'm not a big multiplayer fan, but it's also not hurting anything and it's giving Naughty Dog even more valuable feedback after the public Beta.  They'll know even faster now what may need to be tweaked, which makes the final retail multiplayer more enjoyable for us when we buy the game.  I don't see why anyone should complain about that.

NinSageOctober 11, 2011

Quote from: broodwars

Actually, the worst offense Other M committed was not being a very good game, and that its director was interested only in making his pet project rather than a good game.

Right, so he intentionally set out to make something people wouldn't really like but that he would like. Yea.

Quote from: broodwars

And something Sakamoto needs to come to understand (as many creators do), is that after a product or character has existed in the public's eye for a period of time, it no longer belongs only to the creator.

You're getting confused here.  The goal is to entertain the audience, not cater to them.  Take away the artists' muse and what do you have? Game designed via board meetings and focus groups? No one wants that.

If character's were under the whim of the audience instead of some original creator, Mario would have donned a backwards cap and parachute pants in the early 90s.  I'm glad he didn't.

Quote from: broodwars

The depiction of Samus in Other M is both a betrayal to the fans and to the character's own history in the Metroid series.


False

Quote from: broodwars

The Samus in Other M does not exist in any other Metroid game, even Fusion.


Do I have to start pulling out individual quotes?

Quote from: broodwars

The consumer is King and the consumer has said that that character is not Samus Aran, and so it shall be.


Inside your head.

Quote from: broodwars

But we've been over this, and I'm not particularly interested in rehashing why Other M isn't a very good game, even if it was a game I enjoyed in spite of its many flaws.


You don't even consider a game you enjoy to be good.  There's not much hope for that case.

Quote from: broodwars

I think the lesson Nintendo needs to take away from Other M was that the fans didn't hate the voice acting because they hate voice acting.


Again, as per my first message that is not how "fans" communicated that concept when they are just spewing anger about betrayal, sexism, and other ideas they aren't fully understanding.

Quote from: broodwars

They hated it because the Other M voice acting was horrendous in terms of performance, a performance apparently specifically ordered by Nintendo corporate and Sakamoto.


I'm sorry, given the history of voice acting in video games, I can't possibly believe that.  If you can show me how, across the board, people subjectively disliked Other M's dialogue on a PURELY performance level, I will give you a cookie.  A big cookie.  Go on.... get to it .... it's a good cookie!

Quote from: broodwars

That doesn't mean that voice acting is a bad move, and I welcome real attempts by Nintendo to get it right because they have been way behind the curve on this for way too long.

Good, again, I agree! But my entire point was simply that anyone like us who feels that way has been let down by all the gamers who, instead of taking a step-back and level-headedly critiquing the game, just exploded with rage and shock for foolish reasons.

Case in point: I've never heard G4 say "f*** you" during a review before.  Was that constructive?

Lastly, real fans of Metroid did like Other M.

Proof: http://www.metroid-database.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3710

broodwarsOctober 11, 2011

EDIT: For some reason, this post went haywire on the Bolding after I used it once, and nothing I've done will fix it so I guess it'll just have to stay that way.

Quote from: NinSage

Quote from: broodwars

Actually, the worst offense Other M committed was not being a very good game, and that its director was interested only in making his pet project rather than a good game.

Right, so he intentionally set out to make something people wouldn't really like but that he would like. Yea.

No, he set out to make a pet project that satisfied his personal sensibilities and how he viewed Metroid, rather than something people actually wanted to play.

Quote:

You're getting confused here. The goal is to entertain the audience, not cater to them.  Take away the artists' muse and what do you have? Game designed via board meetings and focus groups? No one wants that.
If character's were under the whim of the audience instead of some original creator, Mario would have donned a backwards cap and parachute pants in the early 90s.  I'm glad he didn't.



And you just made my point for me.  There is a delicate balancing act with how characters must be portrayed once they have entered the public consciousness.  Once you have established a character and it has become beloved, you can't radically change them from what has been established and expect the fanbase to just accept them.  Just look at the past 50 years of mascot history, and you'll see many an attempt to radically change beloved characters to fit some new vision of the franchise that failed because they went too far.

Quote:

Quote from: broodwars


The depiction of Samus in Other M is both a betrayal to the fans and to the character's own history in the Metroid series.



False


I see you put a lot of thought into that rebuttal.  I guess I win by default, and I'll remind you before you try again that I can pull out the ridiculous Ridley scene anytime you want to challenge that.

Quote:

Quote from: broodwars


The Samus in Other M does not exist in any other Metroid game, even Fusion.


  Do I have to start pulling out individual quotes?


No, but apparently I do.  And good job with that non-rebuttal there.

Quote:

Quote from: broodwars


The consumer is King and the consumer has said that that character is not Samus Aran, and so it shall be.



Inside your head.



See the above on fandom accepting character reinventions.  It doesn't matter what Sakamoto thinks Metroid should be if the fans aren't going to support it with their money.  The customer is always right, and the customer said "NO!" here. End of discussion.

Quote:

You don't even consider a game you enjoy to be good.  There's not much hope for that case.


It's called a "guilty pleasure".  Perhaps you've heard of the term.  Other M is a terribly designed game with atrocious writing, but it can be satisfying in its own way.

Quote:

I'm sorry, given the history of voice acting in video games, I can't possibly believe that.  If you can show me how, across the board, people subjectively disliked Other M's dialogue on a PURELY performance level, I will give you a cookie.  A big cookie.  Go on.... get to it .... it's a good cookie!


Sorry, but I'm not going to do your research for you.  I don't care enough to waste any more time on this.  There was a topic on these forums way back when Other M was releasing.  I can't remember if it was the subject of the article or if it was a link someone like Black posted, but it was revealed that Other M's voice acting turned out as it did because that was the performance the voice director wanted.  They wanted "cold and detached."

But I shouldn't even need an article to point this out to you: an actor's performance in a piece of media is shaped by the director. The performances in Other M were judged to be a finished product by the game director and the vocal director, or else the game would not have shipped.  This isn't the 80s or 90s (or 2010 with Ignition and Arc Rise Fantasia), where companies did quick and dirty anime and cartoon dubs just to get products out the door quickly.  This game had major money thrown at it, and was released only when the game was finished.

NinSageOctober 11, 2011


Evidence I've cited:
-the 2002 Metroid manga
-the 2004 Metroid fusion text
-the quantified beliefs of real, live Metroid fans

Evidence you've cited:
-your own personal theories and philosophies

~~~

Maybe when you stop ignoring my first and third pieces, and provided counter-points on the second, I'll have something worth rebutting?  It's not doing research for others, it's just supporting your beliefs with facts.

Until then, I'm good, thanks!

broodwarsOctober 11, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

Evidence I've cited:
-the 2002 Metroid manga

Very few people have read the Metroid manga and even fewer care about it, and the manga doesn't matter anyway if it conflicts with the characterization in the actual games (which if the manga is indeed like Other M, it does).  If it's not in the games or can't be supported by the games, it's generally not going to be considered canon (especially if the manga hasn't been released outside Japan).  Now, from what I understand, aspects of that manga have appeared in the games previously, and people really haven't had a problem with it.  Other M just tries to throw a great big dose of condensed stupid into the story, and that's when everything goes awry.

Quote:

-the 2004 Metroid fusion text

And I fail to understand what you hoped to achieve by bringing that up.  I remember finding Fusion's story incredibly dumb, but there wasn't anything offensive about Samus' characterization in it.  Samus just talks about her former commanding officer and how she looked up to him in her early days as a Federation soldier.  She then talks about how she doesn't like to follow orders (which clashes with her characterization in Other M, by the way), and so she eventually left the Galactic Federation.

Honestly, I thought Samus' backstory was fine in general in Other M, with the exception of stupid Sakamoto-isms like the upside-down thumbs-up and her constant, never-ending whining about "THE BABY".  I think most people probably were as well.  It was the delivery and the particular details of it that people had issue with.  What most people expressed problems with in Other M was how Samus reacts during the events of the game (especially her nonsensical reaction to Ridley, which I've covered so many times that if you don't know it by now you aren't even trying) because it makes no sense.  Samus having all the personality of an original series Cylon didn't help matters, either.

Quote:

-the quantified beliefs of real, live Metroid fans

So?  I can do that too.  You don't even have to try to find "real, live Metroid fans" on the internet that didn't like Other M and what it did to Samus' character.  And what's that old saying?  That however bad something is, someone out there is the world thinks it's the best thing ever made?

NinSageOctober 12, 2011

I'm sorry, friend, this is why our discussions just don't work.  I try to provide real factual evidence to support my points, so we can have a discussion.  But you don't hold a discussion with me.  You just dismiss whatever I say and only cite your own opinions as justification for doing so.

If the manga hasn't been read by a lot of people in the West, how does that make it any less Sakamoto's vision of the Metroid universe?  Also, you say that if the manga proves Samus' character in Other M is consistent then.... it doesn't count.... because Other M is not the real Samus.  This is completely backwards logic.  No one can carry on a conversation with logic like that.

I have read the manga.  It sheds a lot of light on the Metroid fiction.  It's online... if this subject meant that much to you, why not educate yourself on it?

You find the dialogue in Fusion "dumb."  Great.  Thanks for sharing.  Now how does that prove or even illustrate anything?
Samus has never enjoyed taking orders.  Look how damn rebellious she is in Other M.  When she's young she's downright contrary, and when she's older, she gets friggin' shot to keep from disobeying orders.  However, the fact is, she always had a soft spot for Adam.  As per the "dumb" text:

"As I listened to the briefing, my thoughts turned to Adam. The real Adam understood me well. He would end orders by saying, "Any objections, Lady?" He knew I wouldn't disagree. That was just his way of noting our trust. I wonder if I can trust this computer, too..."

Lastly, you say you can "do that too" but... you didn't.

This whole discussion was based on whether or not the people who raged about Other M were justified.  I provided third-party, quantitative data illustrating that the people who care most about Metroid like Other M quite a bit! Given the topic, dedicated Metroid fans shouldn't be considered a reach for a sample.  So, if that means nothing to you, then you're asking me to hold a conversation with a brick wall.  And that's not why I frequent this website.

PS -

Quote from: broodwars

And what's that old saying?  That however bad something is, someone out there is the world thinks it's the best thing ever made?

No, that's not a saying.

SundoulosOctober 12, 2011

Quote from: ejamer

I'm struggling to choose one game - not necessarily a new release - from a handful that look great for the upcoming holiday season. Xenoblade, Zelda Skyward Sword, and Super Mario Galaxy 2 lead the way on Wii. But I'm also tempted to grab Radiant Historia or Star Fox 64 3D for my 3DS. Picking one (two as an absolute max) from that list isn't easy.


I'm also wary about importing since that's virgin gaming territory for me. But nobody else seems to be having issues, so how hard can it be?

I'd definitely pick Xenoblade for one of those titles.  Where Mario Galaxy 2 and Skyward Sword will probably be easily available for a while (and will likely decrease in price over time), the availability of Xenoblade is largely an unknown. 

I recently received my copy of Xenoblade, and it's my first import.  I'm planning to mod my Wii in the next day or two (I'm waiting for a new SD card to arrive via mail), and it will be interesting to see if I had some of the same problems that broodwars had.  Overall, the process looks pretty simple on paper.  We'll see how it goes.

...


Now, regarding the voice acting in Zelda, I can honestly say that it doesn't bother me.  A lot of the characters in modern Zeldas, particularly Anouma's Zeldas, have a sort of goofy or odd characterization by design, and it would be in danger of getting into annoying territory very quickly if not done well.  Do you really want Tingle to have voice acting?  I'd agree that something in the vein of DQ8's voice acting would fit, though.

I'm still thrilled that we're getting orchestrated music in a Zelda game.  The orchestrated pieces I've heard so far in preview videos have really gotten me excited.  Case in point, the Opening/Intro video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP5tVs-qp


I also love that so many of the elements of this game evoke memories of Wind Waker.

Why do I feel like a weirdo for really enjoying both Other M and Epic Yarn? I found Other M to be an enjoyable Metroid-ish game with a laughably bad story. Yes, I wished it had a little more exploration, but it was still a fun game. The combat was great, if I recall correctly.

Epic Yarn is one of those games that I feel I enjoyed on a different level than 90% of the world (Punch-Out!! being another one). It was easy, but it was delightful. I played the game with a smile throughout. I might not have been pulling my hair out over it, but I enjoyed it...for just shy of 10 hours.

NinSageOctober 12, 2011

Quote from: NWR_Neal

Why do I feel like a weirdo for really enjoying both Other M and Epic Yarn?

Don't worry dude, the silent majority thinks both games are well worth enjoying.

Kirby's Epic Yarn:
88.75% on GameRankings
86 on Metacritic

Metroid Other M:
78.55% on GameRankings
79 on Metacritic

I played KEY with 2p co-op for the entire game.  It was so fun that way.

I really hated the fact that Other M used used turning the controller instead of wm+nunchuk.  BUT... still wound up as second place for my GOTY 2010.

ejamerOctober 12, 2011

Quote from: Sundoulos

Quote from: ejamer

I'm struggling to choose one game ...

I'd definitely pick Xenoblade for one of those titles.  Where Mario Galaxy 2 and Skyward Sword will probably be easily available for a while (and will likely decrease in price over time), the availability of Xenoblade is largely an unknown. 

...

Appreciate the feedback (here and from others).


Choosing between Xenoblade and Radiant Historia is giving me the hardest time, because future availability is uncertain for both. Unfortunately there is no chance that I'll be able to afford both titles given some recent financial issues. Xenoblade will probably win out unless NoA suddenly shows more interest in retaining core gamers than bottom-line numbers...


Good luck with the homebrew install. We recently bought a (ridiculously cheap) second-hand Wii off Kijiji to act as a Netflix box, and getting GeckoOS installed and running was quick and easy. Since then we haven't used it for anything other than streaming video, but I'm ready for imports if I manage to get copies of Xenoblade and The Last Story eventually.

I hate all you for reminding me that I'll have to determine if Radiant Historia or Xenoblade is my GOY.

I think I know the answer - but it does suck.

NinSageOctober 12, 2011

Update: I played through the entirety of Horizon Riders last night.

When I first got the game, I tried both control schemes... using the balance board to steer or just twisting the wiimote to steer.

The balance board was problematic because unless you fudged the calibration, it was very difficult to steer with the precision needed to effectively dodge obstacles and incoming projectiles.  I thought the game was paced too quickly for such a reckless control scheme.

Next, I tried just using the wiimote and ran in to the same problem others have: twisting the wiimote to steer sacrifices vital aiming.

A-ha!: Ultimately, last night, I discovered the perfect solution: sit on the coach with the balance board in front of you.  It felt great! It felt like how pilots in the Macross series have footpedals in the cockpit for steering.  I was able to get really precise control over the character's movement and my hands were free for aiming.

Major negatives: The nunchuk shouldn't be required.  Since you just use 2 directions of the analog stick to toggle through two weapons, you could easily map that to the A button to toggle between the guns.  Also, the jump action should be mapped to a button and definitely not input by flicking the wiimote (which also ruins your aiming!).  Ideally, both problems could have been solved by removing the nunchuk, using "A" to jump and using the d-pad to toggle weapons.

Also, the game has NO SAVE FEATURE.  I understand the game isn't that long and most shmups do not have a save feature.  But for some reason, I really feel like this is the kind of game where I wish I could play it and not feel like I had to start from scratch each time.  The last world is very cool, I bet I'd like to just play that now and then.

Building off that, there should be an option to switch characters when you die.  That just seems obvious to me.


Overall: turns out to be a pretty nifty use of the balance board and one I've been waiting for since the peripheral was announced.

There are some major structural flaws (as I mentioned above), but they can all be overcome with minimal headache.

Wishlist: The characters and backstory are rather cliche but have their own unique flavor.  I wish more had been done throughout the game to develop its plot.  There are little 2-sentence title cards describing current events as each stage loads.  Instead of wasting that space with things like "the temperature is 140*. let's get this done fast so our gear doesn't overheat," it would have been nice to actually provide some unobtrusive plot depth!  ... but that's just me.  I understand a lot of gamers' favorite part about plot/cutscenes is the ability to skip them ^_^

Quote from: Crimm

I hate all you for reminding me that I'll have to determine if Radiant Historia or Xenoblade is my GOY.

I think I know the answer - but it does suck.

Also, if you don't play and beat both, then you're dead to me.

Mop it upOctober 12, 2011

Quote from: NWR_Neal

Why do I feel like a weirdo for really enjoying both Other M and Epic Yarn?

Don't let a few vocal detractors persuade you, you're not the only one who enjoyed those games. I liked Other M except for the story and controls. Sure, those are pretty big parts of that game, and they can be grating, but it's worth slogging through for the good action of the gameplay.

The thing about a game like Kirby's Epic Yarn is that it proves a game doesn't have to be challenging to be fun. I'm not really sure where a mindset like that would come from, maybe from someone growing up in the NES era where most games were brutally difficult as a way of lengthening short games. Epic Yarn is more like a playground, it's about interacting with the environment in interesting ways, it's about discovering new things, both big and small, at every step. I've completed it both in single player and co-op, and it was magical in either setting. Though I did find the co-op more enjoyable, since it opens up even more ways to play around in the stages.

NinSageOctober 12, 2011

Quote from: Mop

The thing about a game like Kirby's Epic Yarn is that it proves a game doesn't have to be challenging to be fun. I'm not really sure where a mindset like that would come from, maybe from someone growing up in the NES era where most games were brutally difficult as a way of lengthening short games.

My guess would be from even earlier: arcade games designed to gobble down quarters.

Since the origin of popular gaming would stem from an era when there was no such thing as a truly "easy" game, the concept of "gaming = challenging" became part of the newly forming "gamer" mentality.

Also, since those early games didn't have much else (character, story, visuals) to reward the player with, the idea of overcoming hard challenges and getting those initials in the high score screen became paramount.

.... but these are just my theories.

I definitely grew up with the NES era so I played some tough games.  But I never really defined my gaming self by overcoming challenges.  I am proud of the ones I conquered (Ninja Gaiden 2, motha whaaat!!!), but I never sought out experiences for that reason.

I have made it very clear on RFN that I enjoy both Epic Yarn and Other M. However, I can still have major criticisms of both games, and I do.

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

I have made it very clear on RFN that I enjoy both Epic Yarn and Other M. However, I can still have major criticisms of both games, and I do.

THATS NOT HOW THE INTERNET WORKS!!!!11!

By the way, any player can enter doors in Kirby's Return to Dream Land. They basically fixed every thing that wasn't that good in the E3 demo.

NinSageOctober 12, 2011

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

I have made it very clear on RFN that I enjoy both Epic Yarn and Other M. However, I can still have major criticisms of both games, and I do.

That's good!
Hopefully anyone reading my posts closely can see that at no point have I ever asked people to silence their critiques, just to voice them constructively. 

Also, since I'm feeling the need to plug every whole for fear of cyber-pouncing, let me make clear that I am not saying Jonny has, at any time, been destructive in his comments.  I have been speaking generally.

Finally, remember that I have (at least one) major problem with Other M.  I voiced it above.  Good times...

Quote from: lolmonade

THATS NOT HOW THE INTERNET WORKS!!!!11!

What internet do you use where people don't criticize games relentlessly?

Good thing none of us have either game in our NB this week.  Assuming Jon doesn't lose his shit and deviate from the agenda.

Quote from: NinSage

Quote from: lolmonade

THATS NOT HOW THE INTERNET WORKS!!!!11!

What internet do you use where people don't criticize games relentlessly?


The internet that doesn't allow a nuanced opinion about anything.  You're either for or against something.

NinSageOctober 13, 2011

Quote from: lolmonade

The internet that doesn't allow a nuanced opinion about anything.  You're either for or against something.

Ah, I get it now. I was confused since you only bolded the criticism part of Jonny's statement. But now I understand you included the "still" part for a reason. 

So yea, I agree with what you're saying!

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