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Episode 243: Talk Talk Talkpy

by James Jones, Greg Leahy, Jon Lindemann, and Jonathan Metts - May 15, 2011, 1:36 pm PDT
Total comments: 79

The RFN crew blasts through games, answers your letters, and even looks at a bit of recent news.

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The regular crew is back on board this week to bring you another exciting Nintendo podcast! Jon describes his considerable progress in Chrono Trigger, and we discuss the impending Virtual Console release of the seminal JRPG. James has been overloaded with work, but he does sneak in quick impressions of Ghost Recon: Shadow Wars for 3DS. Jonny sweeps through no less than five games for the past week, but his focus is on Valkyria Chronicles (from the guys who brought you Skies of Arcadia) and a unique, incredibly impressive indie game called Sequence. Greg talks about the new Mortal Kombat and draws surprising comparisons to Rare's long-abandoned Killer Instinct series. He also reports on the latest Nintendo Seminar 2010 game from Japan, the honestly named Pull Pull Pullpy.

After a quick break, it's time for Listener Mail. The flood of excellent questions continues, so we get to spend time on topics like Nintendo's response to the PSN outage, the eShop delay to E3, long-term availability of the Wii Shop Channel, the apparently fleeting concept of replay value, a "black label" sub-brand for Nintendo, and the questionable necessity of a second Wii Nunchuk. We'd love to hear from you too, so please contact the show!

Finally, the results are in, and Perfect Dark is your selection for the next RetroActive! The official forum thread is already going, so be sure to leave a few memories or fresh impressions (of either the N64 original or XBLA remake). We'll choose some of the best comments to be read on the podcast in just a couple of weeks.

This podcast was edited by Greg Leahy.

Music for this episode of Radio Free Nintendo is used with permission from Jason Ricci & New Blood. You can purchase their newest album, Done with the Devil, directly from the record label, Amazon (CD) (MP3), or iTunes, or call your local record store and ask for it!

Additional music for this episode of Radio Free Nintendo is copyrighted to Nintendo, and is included under fair use protection.

Talkback

kraken613May 15, 2011

I haven't listened to an episode in 9 weeks!

I need to get back on it!

SarailMay 15, 2011

Ooooh.... Jonny is a Fulgore guy, eh? Nice. I always had a difficult time controlling him. Me, I'm a Jago and Kim Wu fan. I KILL with Jago. I'd love to play against you sometime, Jonny. :)

Jago was my #2. Also really liked Glacius. In the first Killer Instinct, I usually played as Cinder and thought it was too bad they cut him from the sequel. I thought Spinal was cool but hated how he actually played (the MK-style inputs never felt responsive).

SarailMay 15, 2011

Hah, awesome. I was a big Riptor player on the first KI. Something about that lil' dino dude intrigued me... dunno. :P

And yeah, I'm with you on how Spinal felt when controlling him. He was a definitely a stop-and-go type character. Totally bizarre style from the majority of characters in the KI series. I remember firing up KI Gold for the first time and being very bummed that there was no Cinder to be found... or Chief Thunder, too!

The_Darkest_RedMay 16, 2011

I'm really looking forward to seeing what James has to say about Shadow Wars as it's easily my favorite 3DS game thus far. The game does have an Intelligent Systems feel to it but I think it begins to differentiate itself from typical IS games thanks to some interesting mechanics and varied mission objectives. I'm somewhat surprised about all of the talk of technical problems, I've played the game for about 25 hours and have yet to experience any freezing issues.

Shadow Wars is really quite a deep game and is definitely the hidden gem of the 3DS' launch lineup.

The_Darkest_RedMay 16, 2011

I'm currently watching an Ebay auction for Valkyria Chronicles thanks to you, Johnny.  :P

NWR_DrewMGAndy Goergen, AlmunusMay 16, 2011

While I completely agree that Pit Fighter is absolutely miserable by today's standards, I take issue with Jonny's statement that "No one ever liked Pit Fighter".


I actually really enjoyed Pit Fighter when I was a kid.  I played the arcade version quite a bit at the local Pizza joint, and rented it several times on Genesis later on.  I was really looking forward to a sequel. 

KisakiProjectMay 16, 2011

What if Nintendo is streaming the E3 press conference in 3D with the new system update?

NWR_DrewMGAndy Goergen, AlmunusMay 16, 2011

Major props to Jon for bringing back the term "NintenBRO".

KDR_11kMay 16, 2011

Pull Pull Pullpy sounds similar to Go Go Cosmo Cops.

happyastoriaMay 16, 2011

I had Pit Fighter as a kid and I fuckin' hated it.

NinSageMay 16, 2011


Another great episode, gang.  For reasons unknown to me this one was especially enjoyable!

Responses ...

1. Last Window was greeeeeat! Import it! I can't believe it didn't come to the states but then again, didn't the company go belly up?  But yea, HotelDusk and LastWindow are two of my favorite games of this gen.  As I've said a few times, I'm a big fan of plot.  So what I suppose is the "visual novel" genre appeals to me greatly.  And I love a good mystery! Fun fact: I am facebook friends with the model who was used for the Rachel character. Less-fun Fact: The model for the Kyle Hyde character never accepted my friend request. *pathetic trombone sound*


2. I love hearing that Jonny dreams about E3.  One of the great things about you guys compared to... oh ... nearly all other gaming media, is that you guys are passionate.  So many gaming journalists think that being blasé and jaded somehow increases their street cred.  Maybe it does? But that's sad.

3. Boohoo WiiWare never became a shining bastion to indy gaming. Thank your lucky stars the Wii was "underpowered" enough to allow for off-beat, quirky, games that neeeever would have made it to market on more cost-prohibitive platforms.  And yea, I enjoy the fact that because it was retail releases, these games were interesting, yet fully-formed.  Not just something that reflects its $8 price tag.

I'm truly glad you got your steal of a deal with that $3 game, but it and Cave Story are the exceptions not the rule.

4a. Killer Instinct was definitely cool in its time.  I remember riding the fighting game wave back then and hanging ten on KI a few times.  I was a Jago guy but... only because I thought he looked cool.  I also remember really enjoying how the announcer said "Glaceous" (sp?)

4b. Revising history with hindsight is terrible, Jonny!  People should be smarter than that.  I hate when now-a-days I hear people talk about Mario/Zelda/Metroid games (old and new) as "casual" experiences just because they aren't dude-bro-y.  Games like those were/are the CORE in hardcore!

5. I liked Mortal Kombat 1. I loved Mortal Kombat 2.  Mortal Kombat 3 was so bat-sh*t stupid that the series lost me forever.

Also, I know it makes me sound like an old fuddy-duddy, but the original MK games did gory in a funny/cool way.  The newest MK just looks to me like porn for sadists. .... which I'm sure is what old fuddy-duddys said about the original MK games, right?

6. MDK looks like a lot of fun! I wish the creators didn't castrate such a cool atmosphere with "comedy," but apparantly a lot of people love that about the franchise.  The gameplay looks ideal for the Wii.  It boggles my mind how the Wii isn't filled with 3rd-person shooters instead of rail-shooters.  But I guess that's laziness for you.

7. Thanks for holding Sony's feet to the fire on the PSN thing.  My only issue with the Wii online vs PSN comparison is that so many have spent years beating on Nintendo's weak but functional online, and yet the large response from this PSN debacle is glossed over like "oh haha, silly hackers, sh*t happens - who wants to play some HD gamezz?!?"

Though, I do completely agree with Lindy's point that there is no reason for people to take it to the other extreme and laugh at the broken (eventually repaired) car while they churn the pedals of their bike.

8a. I really, really, really agree with that guy (Chris was it?) who talked about savoring games versus devouring games.  Yes, there are time constraints now, money isn't the constraint it was, and there are many, many more platforms to find games on.

However, I firmly believe that gamers and developers once treated "the big" games as filet mignon, but now even "the big" games are like McDonald's.  Companies are pleased as punch to nickel and dime you with map packs and other DLC, but they'll be damned if you haven't already pre-ordered the 8-month-later sequel.  Tell me I'm wrong.

And though I don't have a ton of contact with adolescent/teen gamers, what I have seen from my nephew and cousins confirms the suspicion that they also "devour" games.

So, again, I'm really enjoying this oooohhHHHhh so terrible dry-spell in Wii games.  Probably for the same reason Chris is enjoying the 3DS launch.  I've had time to complete DKCR, I'm almost done with PLatUnwound Future, and I've been able to really enjoy crafting 3 different competitive teams for Pokemon White.  Good times, people!

Now, I know, the counter-argument is a simple one: "how can you prefer LESS of something? if new games come out you don't HAVE to buy them!"  Right you are.  But I think we all know that distraction and temptation are just that.  You don't HAVE to listen to a dozen people screaming at you, but it's tough to ignore and it certainly makes listening to one voice a challenge.

Furthermore, and I feel this way about most all technology, we're moving too fast! (again, I know, I'm such a lame 29-year-old).  But seriously, in an ideal world, companies would alllll look at each other and say "ya know what? let's chill a bit.  we don't need a new iPhone this month.  we don't need to make our competitors release a new console next year.  let's allll just chill - we'll make less, but we'll spend less, and we'll be a lot more stress-free for it!"
Then, everyone can savor their games, KEEP their games (instead of needing to trade them in for next month's Call of War 5), and maybe that'd be a pretty cool industry, yea? ...... no? .... well, I tried.  :D

8b.  Whooooaaaa there, Jonny.  Hold up a sec.  I see what you're saying that Street Fighter can have infinite replay value and that Zelda is more of a point A to point B experience, but "disposable" is just NOT the correct choice of words!

To provide yet another deliciously apropos food analogy, it would be like saying the infinite nom-nom-munch value of potato chips was more valuable than the sit-down qualities of a meat'n'potatos dinner.

9. I think the separate publishing (?) label for Nintendo's "m for mature" games would be amazingly smart.  Let's be honest, no business in its right mind would want to fudge with the golden goose of being accepted as family friendly.  But if they could somehow bypass that whole problem under the guise of another label? Man, that'd be having cake and eating it too (... am I hungry tonight?)

10. I love the nunchuk. It's so bad.  But seriously, wiimote+nunchuk is my preferred control scheme for nearly every game.  I only use the GC controller for Brawl and I only use the CCPro for Virtual Console games and Cave Story.  Everything else has been WM&NC all the way!

yoshi1001May 16, 2011

I'm sure the PSN debacle made Nintendo and Microsoft (and even non-gaming companies) take a close look at their online networks for any vulnerabilities that might be similar to what brought down Sony.

I actually think there are some good things to be had in the new CT DS content-as I recall, there are some Rainbow Helms that are worth a fair bit.

Yeah, the new equipment added in the DS sort of breaks the game, or at least allows you to become very powerful without playing Game+ over and over.

oohhboyHong Hang Ho, Staff AlumnusMay 17, 2011

Nintendo needs their own Miramax to hide behind. To limit their risk, they could simply seed the new company and see what happens. Some indie without an office comes to Nintendo with a good game? Well "Nintendo" can't help you, but this "Nintendo" can. N wouldn't risk anything outside of the initial investment and have everything to gain assuming they are willing to let the company do what it set out to do or swallow it later defeating the whole exercise.

My Infinite Space names were based mostly on Star Trek and the British Navy. Most british ships have some really fighting names and it's something all warships should have. How much rage have you found? Given the length of the forewarning, I doubt you found much, especially if you read that thread which I guess you have based on the number of Carriers you have gone through.

Pit Fighter was a running joke in gaming magazines before the internet aquired the running joke. No one "likes" Pit Fighter, it's Stockholm syndrome.

broodwarsMay 17, 2011

Huzzah!  Finally, after nearly 3 months of being behind on my podcasts (especially this one, where I've been as much as 8 episodes behind), I've finally caught up!  I hope it never gets that bad again.

Anyway, it's about time you guys got around to playing some Valkyria Chronicles.  I've been evangelizing this game for years, saying this is the next-generation of the Tactical Strategy RPG (no more cut-and-paste Final Fantasy Tactics clones!) and Nintendo has no business releasing another Fire Emblem until it can look and play like this.  I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying it.  Amusingly, for Skies of Arcadia fans all 3 main characters are in this game (Vyse is a recruitable Shocktrooper, Aika is a recruitable Scout, and Fina is one of the Medics who you can call in to retrieve fallen comrades).  Probably the only major fault with the game is that the way the game rates your performance is entirely based on how quickly you completed a map, and once you realize that it becomes painfully obvious that Scouts, upgraded Snipers, and to a lesser extent Lancers are pretty much the only useful classes in the game.  Still, the campaign is very well-done and the story well-told if simple.  It's a pity that people didn't buy this game on PS3, so we're stuck with PSP outings for the time being.

Quote from: NinSage

7. Thanks for holding Sony's feet to the fire on the PSN thing.  My only issue with the Wii online vs PSN comparison is that so many have spent years beating on Nintendo's weak but functional online, and yet the large response from this PSN debacle is glossed over like "oh haha, silly hackers, sh*t happens - who wants to play some HD gamezz?!?"

Sony's online service sucked for a month because hackers broke in and stole everyone's information, forcing Sony to shut it down for a month while they rebuilt the service.  Nintendo's online service sucks because Nintendo was cheap, inexperienced, and lazy when they designed it.  That's a bit of a big difference to me.  While PSN has its problems (and a lot of trepidation from gamers now that it's back up over security concerns), I'll still take it over the barely existent mess that Nintendo uses.

PlugabugzMay 17, 2011

But Nintendo's winning trump card is security through ineptitude. The system is designed as is so theres no registered or persistent data about a user kept anywhere, yet if someone hacks them all they'd get is a spreadsheet full of friend codes.

NinSageMay 17, 2011

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: NinSage

7. Thanks for holding Sony's feet to the fire on the PSN thing.  My only issue with the Wii online vs PSN comparison is that so many have spent years beating on Nintendo's weak but functional online, and yet the large response from this PSN debacle is glossed over like "oh haha, silly hackers, sh*t happens - who wants to play some HD gamezz?!?"

Sony's online service sucked for a month because hackers broke in and stole everyone's information, forcing Sony to shut it down for a month while they rebuilt the service.  Nintendo's online service sucks because Nintendo was cheap, inexperienced, and lazy when they designed it.  That's a bit of a big difference to me.  While PSN has its problems (and a lot of trepidation from gamers now that it's back up over security concerns), I'll still take it over the barely existent mess that Nintendo uses.

Uh oh, the train of cropped quotes and gross generalities has left the station!

Did you not have enough RAM to copy the part where I acknowledge that a moment's failure does not undue a past and future of superiority? =P

As for the "PSN good, NWFC bad" thinking, the PSN has more bells and whistles to be sure (never said it didn't!).  The interface from a design standpoint and the lack of friend codes make the experience more robust and - again - superior  (never said it wasn't!).

However, I've had just as many laggy PS3 sessions as Wii. The only exception being SSBBrawl during its first month after release.  Anytime before midnight was unplayabley slow.

So what I DID say, is that NWFC works.  To use your language, it is not lazy, and it is not a mess.

Is it cheaper? Yes, it is.  If Nintendo charged us $50-60/yr or $400-$600 for the console, I'm sure they'd have invested in a stronger online infrastructure.  Since my online Wii games work, since my WiiWare/VC titles are available when I need them, and since I prefer the content of the Nintendo channel to the "battle of who could care less" that is modern gaming journalism - I'm quite content with the cost ($0) benefit (bare bones yet functional online) ratio.

Again, to be clear, I take issue with the fact that it's fun and trendy to scoff at the Wii (in this case, it's online) and everyone beats on it like the bullies they couldn't be on the schoolyard playground.  Yet, the blemishes on Sony and Microsoft's face go completely ignored because they are there in the name of some "progress" towards an invisible finish line.

Annual fee to play the game I bought? Progress! (On disc) DLC charges? Progress! PSPlus? Progress!

Online gaming that just works with no frills? BUUUURN THE HERETICS!!!!

~

A member of the forum I run had his computer break down well over a year ago.  Up until last month (?) he'd been using his Wii internet browser for all his online needs.  Hey, Maxi, you post here too.  Has your online experience and hundreds of hours on MHTri been a cheap, lazy, mess?

BeautifulShyMay 17, 2011

I guess I better chime in here.

My experience with the Wii online service has been good. I tend to use the internet browser alot still. Mainly browsing message boards and watching videos.  As for the NWFC it works for me and I personally believe that as long as the online works well in the game and is pretty smooth than any extras like DLC that "fancier" online systems offer I generally don't care for much since the gamemakers are charging for things that should be on the disk in the first place. Patches that some Wii games have like the Conduit 2 kinda enforce a lackadaisical attitude with finding bugs and making sure the game works well. I've seen a lot of 360 and PS3 games that the publishers just put out and patch it later.That tends to make overall product not as good as it could be at release.

I generally play online games on the Wii for community aspect of playing with fellow board members and the fun interaction while playing the game. I have to admit there has been lots of fun times in alot of the online Wii games I have played here and over at NinTemple.com.

adadadMay 18, 2011

NinSage, why does there always seem to be a constant subtext in your posts of "us" vs "them"? I just want to take you up on a few of your points:

Quote:

Is it cheaper? Yes, it is.  If Nintendo charged us $50-60/yr or $400-$600 for the console, I'm sure they'd have invested in a stronger online infrastructure.  Since my online Wii games work, since my WiiWare/VC titles are available when I need them, and since I prefer the content of the Nintendo channel to the "battle of who could care less" that is modern gaming journalism - I'm quite content with the cost ($0) benefit (bare bones yet functional online) ratio.

You make it sound like PSN and Xbox Live are identical, which is not the case. You criticise Broodwars for making gross generalisations while missing the point that PSN and Xbox Live are charged for in different ways - one of them is free and the other isn't. It's silly to lump the two in together by citing the PS3's high hardware price as the revenue stream for PSN, since Sony lose money on each piece of hardware sold. The cost of the hardware has nothing to do with the online service - if Nintendo charged a higher price for their console that would in no way a guarantee of an improved online service, and you're going on pure conjecture when you argue that point. Obviously there is your perspective as a consumer, which you have every right to make use of when deciding what precisely you are buying when purchasing a console - whether or not it is a good value proposition for you personally - however it would be fairer to say that this is what you are buying a console for, rather than what you are buying. When you purchase a console you are buying the hardware, which does not include online gaming per se.

Furthermore, (and I'm referring here exclusively to online gaming, since that is what you refer to in your post) the models Sony and Microsoft subscribe to are vastly different from each other, since Microsoft charge exclusively for online gaming, whereas Sony's and Nintendo's respective approach to online is pretty much identical; on that basis they are preeminently comparable. As with Nintendo for the Wii and DS, online gaming on the PSN is not sold independently but as a selling point of PS3 games, which is where Sony make money (alongside paid DLC, which of course is present also on the Wii).

So with that in mind, Broodwar's criticisms were (in the context of a comparison with PSN) that Nintendo was cheap, inexperienced and lazy when designing their online infrastructure. He also called the online functionality a barely existent mess. Cheap is slightly ambiguous and could be read a few different ways, as you have shown NinSage by apparently interpreting this to mean cheap for the consumer. I suspect though that Broodwar is referring to Nintendo's well-known financial conservatism. I think the point is fairly clear when you consider that Nintendo's online service lacks several of PSN's features such as trophies and a unified friends system, which suggests a lack of effort and/or research development on Nintendo's part. I think that sufficiently covers the characterisations "lazy" and "cheap". Inexperienced is a given, although this applies in equal measure to Sony in my opinion. Microsoft is the only console-maker with any experience, last gen specifically, of the kind of features which are now integrated into modern consoles, such as an online shop. By modelling many of their features on the 360's this generation however, Sony does appear more experienced than Nintendo now when taking into consideration the privileged attention they have given online. We've seen this with Sony's projects like Home, and the addition and integration of trophies a few years ago.

Finally, Broodwars called Nintendo's online functionality a "barely existent mess", my favourite criticism of the bunch, which goes to the heart of the matter. Again, I would refer back to the point that Nintendo and Sony are directly comparable in that online gaming is a feature designed to sell more retail games first and foremost. Barely existent seems to be a fair comment since I would imagine (although I have no numbers so feel free to refute this if you feel I am being unfair or overly speculative) that the Wii has far fewer games with online features versus the PS3. Is the service a mess? Well, if I were primarily interested in online gaming, and I had the choice between an online experience on the Wii or the PS3, I suspect I would opt for the PS3 version. Multi-platform owners are rare of course, however the point still stands. No doubt, the Wii system operates on a game-by-game basis. Held up next to Sony, who use a unified friend system and, as I understand it, can offer voicechat fairly universally in PS3 games through any bluetooth headset, it is not difficult to see why Nintendo's service would be called a mess - it is not unified at all, and therefore it is entirely scattershot. Friendcodes are an example, and another is the Nintendo Channel, which is unmitigated advertising, while the Shop channel contains no advertising content.

In this sense, you might say that Nintendo's service is actually difficult to classify as a service. When RFN discuss online in Wii games it is primarily with regard to the online features and performance of a single game, such as Brawl or Mario Kart. Likewise, it is telling that your proof of a decent service is to point to an individual who has put hundreds of hours into a single game. In a sense it is unfair to refer to Nintendo as having an online service. It would seem far more fair to point to individual games: Monster Hunter Tri's online service, or Brawl's online service. Evidently this would not be the case if performance and features were standardised, or even merely consistent across games. I should mention though that in PSN's case I'm sure a lot of the online functionality is the result of a trickle down effect from Microsoft, who have standardised requirements for features in 360 games, which PS3 ports will be likely to retain.

Finally, and this is a fairly general point since I've rambled for long enough, I disagree that Sony is being given an easy time for the disruption to PSN. I refer back to my initial point in this post, concerning the subtext of many of your posts which I have read. You describe the reaction to the PSN network's downtime: '"oh haha, silly hackers, sh*t happens - who wants to play some HD gamezz?!?"'. OK. What am I supposed to infer from this? I can only assume that you have been spending your day(z) reading inane Youtube comments, or that you are imagining a camp of PS360 users (no less than the gaming press? Taking a wild guess) who will do anything to defend Microsoft and Sony, who, of course, both fall under the umbrella of the HD label. And these Youtube commenters/fanboys/journalists will defend not one, but two home consoles under the moniker of HD, whilst continually attempting to attack and devalue Nintendo products? I would ask that you renounce your analogy: neither Nintendo, Sony nor Microsoft are spotty kids. They are faceless companies and corporations. If there are people out there who do not enjoy Nintendo products and express a preference for games on other consoles, be that because of online functionality, HD graphics or any other reason, then they are not bullies.

NinSageMay 18, 2011

Dear adadad,

Thankfully, I need but a few short thoughts to respond to your great wall of text.

1.  Quite right! I'm very "us" versus "them" this gen.  Primarily because I've spent the last 20+ years of my life as a gamer and not until this gen have I felt that my gaming preferences have literally isolated me from my peers.  Friends I used to game with? Store clerks I used to gab with? Yea, I prefer Nintendo this gen so, I'm not a "real" gamer, or a "hardcore" gamer.

To which you might say "well if they act that way they are morons and you don't need 'em!"  True enough, but then there are a looooot of morons in the culture of gaming... and I'd love to see that change.  Wouldn't you?

2. As far as the costs, you're right, I am not an accountant for these companies but my guesses are as educated as they can be.  I feel my logic was pretty sound and you certainly didn't provide any counter points other than the concept that you disagree!

3. Building on point 2, yea, a lot of what you wrote was just rambling.  So much so that, again, it doesn't appear you had your own perspectives to share with us so much as you simply disliked mine.  To that, I can only say: sorry?? =P

4. In regards to point 1 and the notion of a crowd of gamers who are too insecure to play games that don't somehow imply a pixelcount/dick size correlation? I'm sorry to inform you that this is the reality we are in.  If you want to meet me in a chatroom sometime and go over it with you I'd be glad to do so and my website has the means.  Otherwise, if you haven't witnessed the anti-Nintendo bias from the media and self-proclaimed hardcore gamers, then all I can say is I envy your blissful ignorance.

PS - thanks for the backup, Maxi.  Have we discussed that you are apparently also a fan of the Teen Titans animated show? That series was bad.ass.

Seriously adadad, I've taken college courses in which I read less than that post.

adadadMay 19, 2011

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

Seriously adadad, I've taken college courses in which I read less than that post.

Yeah. Sorry about that. I was very tired when I wrote it which is why it's so rambling. I take it you don't study English Literature then  :P:

I suppose the thing that gets on my nerves NinSage is that you make out that you're preaching to people who define themselves as "hardcore gamers", addressing fanboy bias against Nintendo etc, but you're doing so on a Nintendo fansite - what's the point? And you basically attacked Broodwars (a forum user on a Nintendo fansite) for legitimately criticising Nintendo and seem to be lumping him in the "crowd of gamers who are too insecure to play games that don't somehow imply a pixelcount/dick size correlation", when (and this was the unarticulated point I wanted to express in my previous post I guess) that has nothing to do with online. If I value online gaming then I have a legitimate reason to criticise Nintendo and cast the Wii in an unfavourable light next to the other home consoles. That's simply a preference and I don't see how that has anything to do with "them" which you are constantly rallying against.

Your confusion about "them" and the comments you've made give me the impression that, for you, any person who plays games on a regular basis and does not enjoy Nintendo games or consoles is wrong, or a misguided fool who needs to be taught the error of their ways. Obviously as fans of Nintendo we both enjoy their output, but I respect the fact that Nintendo don't have something for everyone, they never will and they never have. So why fret about it, and why be rude to people who don't share your opinion?

Quote from: adadad

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

Seriously adadad, I've taken college courses in which I read less than that post.

Yeah. Sorry about that. I was very tired when I wrote it which is why it's so rambling. I take it you don't study English Literature then  :P: : :

"continued rambling"


English Literature: The study of using 5 paragraphs to make a point that would only take 5 sentences.

All kidding aside, I do agree with your points on why Ninetndo's online infastructure is considered lazy.  The 3 titles mentioned so far have been the exception, not the rule, which is an incredible missed opportunity.

I haven't read a single post in this talkback.


Did i mention I run the forums? I run the forums.

CericMay 19, 2011

Quote from: Crimm

I haven't read a single post in this talkback.


Did i mention I run the forums? I run the forums.

You also like to Steal Bandwidth and have declare yourself as our King on RFN.

Quote from: Ceric

Quote from: Crimm

I haven't read a single post in this talkback.


Did i mention I run the forums? I run the forums.

You also like to Steal Bandwidth and have declare yourself as our King on RFN.

To be fair, I set my icon to I like to Steal Bandwidth on my own. And I'm not a king. Kings do not have the power to make and unmake the world as I do.

CericMay 19, 2011

Quote from: Crimm

Quote from: Ceric

Quote from: Crimm

I haven't read a single post in this talkback.


Did i mention I run the forums? I run the forums.

You also like to Steal Bandwidth and have declare yourself as our King on RFN.

To be fair, I set my icon to I like to Steal Bandwidth on my own. And I'm not a king. Kings do not have the power to make and unmake the world as I do.

So your Kratos Play thing?  I knew they need more for God of War 4 ...

NinSageMay 19, 2011

adadad-

It's safe to say you are significantly missing my points.

I'll try to lay it all out as simply as possible...

I have no problem with criticizing the Wii or Nintendo (did I not repeatedly say it's online was overall inferior?).  I have a problem with people doing so in a manner that they would not apply to Sony, Microsoft, or their products.

I'm a big fan of gaming.  For the last two generations I was a PS1+2 guy.  In undergrad, I certainly played enough (local) multiplayer Halo to last a life time.  But, this generation I happen to (greatly) prefer what Nintendo is doing.

Yet, as I live and breathe, Nintendo has just been getting bashed from all sides this gen.  Some defend this bashing as an expression of opinion.  But here's the problem ...

An opinion: "Based on what I've seen, I hate Nintendo, what it's doing, and its products.  But I realize your opinions may differ and I respect that."
Something else entirely: "Even though I don't pay attention to what they do, I hate Nintendo, what it's doing, and its products.  And I consider you less of a gamer, less than my equal,  if you like them."

Too many people fall into that second category this generation.

I feel the root of the problem is that gamers have been wrongfully trained to think quality of gaming is based solely, or even primarily, on system specifications.  Can it help? Absolutely!  Does it make Tetris any less awesome of a game? Not even close.

Also, if a few million soccer moms and iddy bitty kiddies play Carnival Games on the Wii, it does not make No More Heroes any less enjoyable.  Millions of soccer moms and iddy biddy kiddies listen to iPods, uh oh! I guess all your music sucks now!

We good now? 

CericMay 19, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

...
Millions of soccer moms and iddy biddy kiddies listen to iPods, uh oh! I guess all your music sucks now!
...

Please, We didn't need iPods for that.

Quote from: adadad

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

Seriously adadad, I've taken college courses in which I read less than that post.

Yeah. Sorry about that. I was very tired when I wrote it which is why it's so rambling. I take it you don't study English Literature then  :P:

Actually, I did take a Western Lit class in which I probably read less than that, and still managed to get an A. I lucked into the easiest English professor at the college for that, though. I actually got to write my term paper about video games, because it had to be related to one of the books we were (supposed to be) reading and that was around the time the Dante's Inferno game came out.

happyastoriaMay 19, 2011

Interesting discussion. My stance: both NinSage and adadad have valid points. People bash on Nintendo for no reason whatsoever. Yeah, their online sucks, but you do have to admit - haters are bashing more than just that.

"I can say more with simple words, and one page, than a book entire"

- Franz Kafka

There are plenty of valid reasons to criticize what Nintendo's done this generation, but there are also people who go beyond those into stupidity. But that's just the console war. The same thing goes on between PS3 and 360 owners, and I've seen plenty of people on these forums take shots at the other consoles that are no more valid than a lot of what those people say about Nintendo. To borrow a phrase from the greatest television show ever made, it's all part of the game.

NinSageMay 19, 2011

happyastoria & NWR_insanolord -

You're right.  There is plenty to criticize about Nintendo - just like all the companies.  Also, the console wars are not new and any war will have casualties on all sides.

However, since you guys are apparently content with the status quo, answer me this:  Why is it only this generation that the bigger gaming media outlets almost completely ignore Nintendo? Or worse, can't write/talk about Nintendo without snide remarks?

I used to LOVE watching G4, but I can't do it any more because they can't cover the games I like without insulting them.

I used to love listening to Geoff Keighley on GameTrailers but I don't think he's brought up Nintendo once in the last 18 months without immediately inquiring about the Vitality Sensor with a smirk on his face.

I even used to think Michael Pachter was smart until he started his annual "Wii is doomed" predictions.  Don't worry, now I recognize that Pachter is stupid in regard to all consoles.  But I believe Nintendo is still his forté.

I don't care if people want to share their negative opinions or criticize all day long (not my thing, but feel free!) but I can't stand the reality of the situation that Nintendo is currently not allowed to receive credit for the things it does right (didn't like a million "hardcore" Wii games come out last year?!), yet Sony/MS only really get flak when one of them lets millions of pieces of personal data get hijacked.  What a wonderful double standard, eh?

I wouldn't say that I'm content with it as much as I'm resigned to it. I don't like it, but there's nothing I can do to change it on any real scale, so I don't waste my time complaining about it.

Also, the whole "religious war" aspect of it has been around as long as I can remember, going all the way back to the SNES and Genesis. Not everybody feels that way now, nor did they then, but the rise of the internet has fanned the flames a bit and brought it more to the forefront.

As for the state of the gaming media, yeah, that's bad. A lot of those people should be ashamed that a site like ours that caters only to and is run by Nintendo fans is more objective and unbiased about that kind of thing than the people who do it for a living. G4 has always sucked, though. Sessler's good, but I don't think anyone else on that network deserves the exposure they have.

CericMay 19, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

happyastoria & NWR_insanolord -

You're right.  There is plenty to criticize about Nintendo - just like all the companies.  Also, the console wars are not new and any war will have casualties on all sides.

However, since you guys are apparently content with the status quo, answer me this:  Why is it only this generation that the bigger gaming media outlets almost completely ignore Nintendo? Or worse, can't write/talk about Nintendo without snide remarks?

I used to LOVE watching G4, but I can't do it any more because they can't cover the games I like without insulting them.

I used to love listening to Geoff Keighley on GameTrailers but I don't think he's brought up Nintendo once in the last 18 months without immediately inquiring about the Vitality Sensor with a smirk on his face.

I even used to think Michael Pachter was smart until he started his annual "Wii is doomed" predictions.  Don't worry, now I recognize that Pachter is stupid in regard to all consoles.  But I believe Nintendo is still his forté.

I don't care if people want to share their negative opinions or criticize all day long (not my thing, but feel free!) but I can't stand the reality of the situation that Nintendo is currently not allowed to receive credit for the things it does right (didn't like a million "hardcore" Wii games come out last year?!), yet Sony/MS only really get flak when one of them lets millions of pieces of personal data get hijacked.  What a wonderful double standard, eh?

I have to say those doublestandards are a weird part of life.  I mean take politics.  One of the bigger affector of our everday life but is very Taboo to talk about with the people whose opinions you trust.  Religion same way.

The funny part is that Gaming is very much similar to a religion.  Everyone has their own set of beliefs that they are willing to defend with their own doctrine. With the major sects are denominations etc. The parallels run deep.  Mostly because as Gamers we must have Faith.  Same with Scientist.  We have Faith that the games we want will come out.  Be that the Next Super Metroid or Punchout or Whatever your into.  It is hard for people to accept things don't move and organize to their plans.

Everyone is entitled to their Gaming Beliefs and I personally enjoy hearing about those.  Just don't expect me to conform to them.

Since gaming is so much like religion, from this point forward discussion of gaming on the forums is strictly prohibited.

broodwarsMay 19, 2011

The thing is, I don't think the gaming media is ignoring the Wii because they "hate" Nintendo.  Whenever a new Mario Galaxy or whatnot releases, they usually trip over themselves to gush over it (even if the game doesn't really deserve it, which IMO was the case with quite a few Nintendo-developed titles this generation).  The reason the media tends to ignore the Wii and its games is because the library quite frankly sucks, and it sucks by an overwhelming margin compared to the libraries of the other two home consoles.  The media gets tired of covering mediocre or terrible games on the Wii, so they tend to overlook the genuinely good non-Nintendo titles like Fluidity or whatnot unless there's something truly noteworthy about them.  That's not an "anti-Nintendo thing".  That's an "anti-crap thing", and they'd be the same way if the libraries on the other two consoles were as bad.

The same goes for the online capabilities of the other consoles.  The media constantly harps on Nintendo for its bare-bones, frustrating-to-work-around online system because it is so antiquated and counter-intuitive.  The online capabilities of the other two consoles (the recent PSN episode aside) just work, they're easy to use, and it isn't too difficult to find people online to play and/or chat with.

Nintendo developed the Wii to be antiquated from Day 1, and the technical deficiencies of the console have harmed everything about the console except for console and 1st party sales.  Hell, just imagine if Nintendo hadn't decided to launch MotionPlus several years into the system's life-cycle but just made it part of the standard controller from launch.  Just imagine how much better the quality of motion control on the system could have been.  Instead, we get waggle for several years and when MotionPlus finally launches, there's few reasons to support it (especially since Nintendo's big showcase for the device in "serious games" still hasn't released in Skyward Sword, a game whose fate right now is uncertain with Nintendo announcing another console at E3).  So yeah, that's been the story about the console since Day 1: missed opportunities and financial shortcuts, and Nintendo is the one responsible for that.  They've been reamed for it and they'll continue to be reamed for it, and they deserve it every single time.  Maybe after being battered enough over these issues, Nintendo will finally learn from their mistakes with their next generation of hardware.

NinSageMay 19, 2011

BroodWars - In a word: no.

Insanolord - Good, I didn't think any sane person would be content with it.  But we CAN change it.  I don't mean to sound like an after school special here but all we have to do is not put up with it.  Speak up when sites like Kotaku and entities like G4 don't do their jobs. 

I got banned from Kotaku 3 times before I stopped signing up again.

Did I swear once? No. Did I call the author names? No.

Did I ask why an article about a toddler wearing wiimote sleeves on her feet was newsworthy? Yes.

Did I call Brian Ashcraft out about printing false rumors regarding the DS' successor? Yes.

Did I forget what the third thing was? Yes.

Did I make a difference? Well, no.  But that's because there was only a handful of folks like myself willing to speak up.  Imagine if everyone who acknowledged the double standards said something?!  They would change.  They would have to because they want to stay in business and for that they need an audience, not just sales of a product.

But, sadly, it's much easier for most people to just ignore it.... read the posts, glean the pertinent information, and let the inequality fester.

In many ways I know it's "wrong" of me to care as much as I do about getting gaming culture back to the blissful days of "Genesis sucks!" "SNES sucks!" "... wanna play Sonic 2?" "Yea, then you can come over for Castlevania IV."

I should just play the games I love and be happy, right?

Well, that's my flaw, cuz I know we can do better - we just have to ask for demand it!

PS - I feel the same way about modern journalism in general.  But I figure I'll start with gaming journalism and work my way up.  =P

happyastoriaMay 19, 2011

@ NinSage

You should go to Destructoid. They love Nintendo there, I should know; I'm heavily involved with the community there. If someone disagrees with you there, you actually get an intelligent response, not some troll comment.

I'm happy with Nintendo, but that's 'cause I'm not much of a gamer. I play games, but not as much as I use too. I sometimes struggle to even finish a game, but I still like gaming.

I don't care for online and don't play much games, so, for me, Nintendo is doing pretty great.  ;)

Quote from: broodwars

The thing is, I don't think the gaming media is ignoring the Wii because they "hate" Nintendo.  Whenever a new Mario Galaxy or whatnot releases, they usually trip over themselves to gush over it (even if the game doesn't really deserve it, which IMO was the case with quite a few Nintendo-developed titles this generation).  The reason the media tends to ignore the Wii and its games is because the library quite frankly sucks, and it sucks by an overwhelming margin compared to the libraries of the other two home consoles.  The media gets tired of covering mediocre or terrible games on the Wii, so they tend to overlook the genuinely good non-Nintendo titles like Fluidity or whatnot unless there's something truly noteworthy about them.  That's not an "anti-Nintendo thing".  That's an "anti-crap thing", and they'd be the same way if the libraries on the other two consoles were as bad.

The same goes for the online capabilities of the other consoles.  The media constantly harps on Nintendo for its bare-bones, frustrating-to-work-around online system because it is so antiquated and counter-intuitive.  The online capabilities of the other two consoles (the recent PSN episode aside) just work, they're easy to use, and it isn't too difficult to find people online to play and/or chat with.

Nintendo developed the Wii to be antiquated from Day 1, and the technical deficiencies of the console have harmed everything about the console except for console and 1st party sales.  Hell, just imagine if Nintendo hadn't decided to launch MotionPlus several years into the system's life-cycle but just made it part of the standard controller from launch.  Just imagine how much better the quality of motion control on the system could have been.  Instead, we get waggle for several years and when MotionPlus finally launches, there's few reasons to support it (especially since Nintendo's big showcase for the device in "serious games" still hasn't released in Skyward Sword, a game whose fate right now is uncertain with Nintendo announcing another console at E3).  So yeah, that's been the story about the console since Day 1: missed opportunities and financial shortcuts, and Nintendo is the one responsible for that.  They've been reamed for it and they'll continue to be reamed for it, and they deserve it every single time.  Maybe after being battered enough over these issues, Nintendo will finally learn from their mistakes with their next generation of hardware.

As I've said, there are plenty of good reasons to criticize Nintendo's handling of the Wii. But a lot of sites go above and beyond those. I'm upset by that mostly because of how unprofessional it is. If they hate Nintendo (or, more likely, hate how they feel Nintendo has changed), that's their right, but it cheapens the idea of game journalism when they let those feelings spill out into their work. If game journalists ever want to be taken seriously they need to move beyond this bullshit.

broodwarsMay 19, 2011

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

As I've said, there are plenty of good reasons to criticize Nintendo's handling of the Wii. But a lot of sites go above and beyond those. I'm upset by that mostly because of how unprofessional it is. If they hate Nintendo (or, more likely, hate how they feel Nintendo has changed), that's their right, but it cheapens the idea of game journalism when they let those feelings spill out into their work. If game journalists ever want to be taken seriously they need to move beyond this bullshit.

Out of curiosity, can you cite examples (links if possible) of places where you've seen such "unprofessional" criticism of the Wii and/or Nintendo?  I only visit the bigger sites like 1up, Destructoid, IGN, Gametrailers, etc. so perhaps I've just missed it, but generally when I see sites like those criticize Nintendo they state very valid reasons.  And in the end, it doesn't usually come down to "hating" Nintendo or whatnot, but just being very disappointed (as I am) in the Wii and Nintendo this generation that then leads to apathy (something I can sympathize with. As a gamer, you want to write about things that interest you).

As an example of what insanolord is getting at, look at the recent piece we posted "Nine Things Nintendo Needs For Wii 2." Aaron is a good friend, but from editing that, I got the sense that he really didn't pay attention to anything that came out on Wii outside of a few titles. Is that his fault? No, not really. WiiWare's poorly marketed, as are the other games. There is also a lot of shit surrounding them.

I do blame, to an extent, paid games media for failing to be aware of one-third of the games industry. There are very good games on Wii and WiiWare. We cover most of them. It almost seems like very few other sites do. That might be dictated by readers, hits, and ads, but even still, if you claim to be anywhere near an expert in the field, you need to keep up on all trends. I might, at the end of the day, generally prefer my Wii to my 360/PS3, but I make a point to keep up with games and trends on those systems; even if I know I don't really care about the next big first-person shooters, I still want to know what the deal is.

Then again, my favorite game for this entire generation has been House EDIT: of the Dead: Overkill.


EDIT: I thought this post got lost in the internet ether, but apparently it got posted. There was something else I was going to say in the final sentence, but I forget. Something like "my favorite game this gen is a silly rail shooter, so maybe my viewpoint is totally screwed up."

CericMay 20, 2011

Quote from: NWR_Neal

As an example of what insanolord is getting at, look at the recent piece we posted "Nine Things Nintendo Needs For Wii 2." Aaron is a good friend, but from editing that, I got the sense that he really didn't pay attention to anything that came out on Wii outside of a few titles. Is that his fault? No, not really. WiiWare's poorly marketed, as are the other games. There is also a lot of **** surrounding them.

I do blame, to an extent, paid games media for failing to be aware of one-third of the games industry. There are very good games on Wii and WiiWare. We cover most of them. It almost seems like very few other sites do. That might be dictated by readers, hits, and ads, but even still, if you claim to be anywhere near an expert in the field, you need to keep up on all trends. I might, at the end of the day, generally prefer my Wii to my 360/PS3, but I make a point to keep up with games and trends on those systems; even if I know I don't really care about the next big first-person shooters, I still want to know what the deal is.

Then again, my favorite game for this entire generation has been House

What really gets me is when I pop over to say IGN to look in every once in a while their is always a "Top This" List but Where's the reviews, previews, etc.  I know stuff is going on.  We all like to speculate but, what about whats already coming that I might not see?  Does anyone else think its Ironic at times that Newscast and RFN give me more information about games in general then I normally gleam from looking around?

broodwarsMay 20, 2011

Quote from: Ceric

What really gets me is when I pop over to say IGN to look in every once in a while their is always a "Top This" List but Where's the reviews, previews, etc.  I know stuff is going on.  We all like to speculate but, what about whats already coming that I might not see?  Does anyone else think its Ironic at times that Newscast and RFN give me more information about games in general then I normally gleam from looking around?

No, it's not ironic at all.  In fact, I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case.  As Neal alluded to, sites like IGN are a business.  They exist to make money from ad revenue generated by hits to pages featuring content that interests the site's readership.  If there are no hits, there's no ad revenue and people get laid off, as we've seen on sites like 1up.  IGN's readership is likely extremely core-centric, and there are no games currently in Nintendo's North American upcoming Wii games list that are core-centric outside of really Zelda Skyward Sword and the odd game here and there.  The Wii's casual audience almost by definition doesn't visit sites like IGN and whatnot, so there's no point in covering Wii Shovelware in articles that cost money to fund and don't generate hits.  We already know from Radio Free Nintendo that Nintendo and 3rd parties don't tend to provide review copies of WiiWare and Virtual Console titles, so if a site wants to cover a particular game the site or reviewer must shell out the cash for it themselves.  So what is there to talk about on Wii right now that the IGN readership will click on and read to generate the ad revenue that pays for the site?  That's right: "Top X" lists and editorials either speculating about the next Nintendo console or criticizing things Nintendo has done this generation that has lead to there being nothing alternative to talk about on the IGN Wii Channel.  Hell, I'll bet if we didn't have the 3DS right now, we wouldn't still have an IGN Nintendo podcast because there's simply nothing to talk about that the IGN readership cares about.

Sites like Nintendo World Report have things a little easier since, given that they do not pay their writers, they only have to generate enough ad revenue to pay for the site's server bills and the odd expenditure every now and then.  Being enthusiast sites, the writers tend to be more interested in content on the Wii than on most sites, and are thus more likely to shell out their own money to pick up assorted WiiWare and Virtual Console titles for review that would have otherwise flown under the radar.  Also due to being a Nintendo-centric enthusiast site, the readership tends to be more interested in such stories (it's not like there's much else to talk about) so they generate more hits than they would otherwise, funding the site and removing as much of a need for "controversial" articles like "Top X" lists.  There's even enough concentrated Nintendo interest here to generate hits (even ironic ones) to support reviewing casual shovelware from time to time.  The downside, of course, is that sites like NWR don't generate enough revenue to pay their writers, and we've seen the site lose writers in the past due to this (hey, we're all trying to make a living).

People who work for paid sites aren't going to be familiar with the odd obscure good game on the Wii and WiiWare because many times their sites have no reason to cover them.  They don't generate hits, and there's such a deserved negative stigma around them that most writers probably don't feel the need to spend their own money on them unless there's strong Word-of-Mouth appeal to them (as was the case with Fluidity).  By contrast, games like an L.A. Noire or Portal 2 generate huge numbers of hits, appeal strongly to core-centric gamers and writers, and are widely regarded to be high-quality, so they are more widely known.

Killer_Man_JaroTom Malina, Associate Editor (Europe)May 20, 2011

At the end of the day, what matters to me most is for the kinds of games that I enjoy to continue to be made, and Nintendo still does that. People like to take pot shots at the Wii's software library - yeah, there's a whole load of crap not worth discussing, but there's still many games on the upper end that are absolutely worth playing. If I were to make a list of exclusives that I would recommend people play on Wii, then do the same for the other systems, I reckon the lists would be about even in length. That's me personally; depending on tastes, others might lean further towards one or the other.

Anyway, I think this lends itself to the argument that, in this generation, especially if you're interested in a broad spectrum of different games, there's no one console that will satisfy 100%. That's why I divide my gaming between Wii, DS and PC. I can pick up a lot of the great PS3 and 360 titles on the PC, and fulfil my cravings for online play if I have them, but I'm still able to enjoy all the excellent Nintendo content (and the occasional third party diamond in the rough) on my console and handheld.

CericMay 20, 2011

Quote from: broodwars

:words:

Why would anyone want a site that just does Top X list?  I can't even fathom how that garnishes a readership that grows.

But in general the point is that a Nintendo Centric Sites Podcast tends to introduce me to more products on Other Systems then the multi-platform  sites.

Quote from: Ceric

Quote from: broodwars

:words:

Why would anyone want a site that just does Top X list?  I can't even fathom how that garnishes a readership that grows.

But in general the point is that a Nintendo Centric Sites Podcast tends to introduce me to more products on Other Systems then the multi-platform  sites.


Maybe it's moreso a reflection of Nintendo's inability to contain lifelong user's interest than a bashfest/ignorathon of Nintendo's games.  Anecdotally, the only Wii games that have given me that "OMG THIS IS INCREDIBLE NINTENDO SIXTY-FOOOOUURRR!!!" moments are Wii Sports/Resort, Super Mario Galaxy (2nd one was great too, but it was a novel experience the first time around), and Kirby's Epic Yarn.

broodwarsMay 20, 2011

Quote from: Ceric

But in general the point is that a Nintendo Centric Sites Podcast tends to introduce me to more products on Other Systems then the multi-platform  sites.

Of course, I can turn that around and say that that's an indictment of how bad the experience is on the Wii when even a Nintendo-centric podcast has to turn to the other consoles to find games they want to talk about most weeks.

CericMay 20, 2011

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: Ceric

But in general the point is that a Nintendo Centric Sites Podcast tends to introduce me to more products on Other Systems then the multi-platform  sites.

Of course, I can turn that around and say that that's an indictment of how bad the experience is on the Wii when even a Nintendo-centric podcast has to turn to the other consoles to find games they want to talk about most weeks.

lolmonade beat you too it.
Though the site itself still manages to get some news on a more or less regular basis.

broodwarsMay 20, 2011

Quote from: Ceric

Though the site itself still manages to get some news on a more or less regular basis.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on what should really be considered "news" sometimes on this site, but it is true that there is a large pool of dedicated writers on this site always scouring for Nintendo news.  That's true.

CericMay 20, 2011

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: Ceric

lolmonade beat you too it.

Eh, not quite since he was talking about a waning quality of Nintendo-produced titles and I'm talking about the entire library, but whatever.

Quote:

Though the site itself still manages to get some news on a more or less regular basis.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on what should really be considered "news" sometimes on this site, but it is true that there is a large pool of dedicated writers on this site always scouring for Nintendo news.  That's true.

That's fine we can agree to disagree.

NinSageMay 20, 2011

1. The "business" aspect of journalism is a problem all over because it makes the outlet's primary goal to generate hits/viewers instead of to INFORM THE AUDIENCE.  But you're right, that's the reality we live in.

However, there are millliiiiooons of Wii owners and DS owners.  If they had good business sense they would be trying to bring those people in.  Try not to think like a moron in black and white terms.  Those millions of people are not just soccer moms who don't know what a computer is.  Even if 3/4 of those Wii owners only use the console as their "third" platform? Guess what? They probably would like to know if a good game was released!!

But did Kotaku cover MH3? No. They just posted a creepy video of a foreign kid spazzing about the game.

Did Kotaku cover NMH 1+2? Yes, but they covered the (then) Japanese only PS3 port of the years old first game literally 6x more!

There's an important mass media concept called "Menu equals diet" - there can't be an audience for Nintendo/Wii information if the outlets are "too cool" to provide it.

2. The PS2 had a crap ton of shovelware.  No one seemed to have a hard time ignoring it for the sake of the good games.

Quote from: NinSage

1. The "business" aspect of journalism is a problem all over because it makes the outlet's primary goal to generate hits/viewers instead of to INFORM THE AUDIENCE.  But you're right, that's the reality we live in.

However, there are millliiiiooons of Wii owners and DS owners.  If they had good business sense they would be trying to bring those people in.  Try not to think like a moron in black and white terms.  Those millions of people are not just soccer moms who don't know what a computer is.  Even if 3/4 of those Wii owners only use the console as their "third" platform? Guess what? They probably would like to know if a good game was released!!

But did Kotaku cover MH3? No. They just posted a creepy video of a foreign kid spazzing about the game.

Did Kotaku cover NMH 1+2? Yes, but they covered the (then) Japanese only PS3 port of the years old first game literally 6x more!

There's an important mass media concept called "Menu equals diet" - there can't be an audience for Nintendo/Wii information if the outlets are "too cool" to provide it.

2. The PS2 had a crap ton of shovelware.  No one seemed to have a hard time ignoring it for the sake of the good games.


1. I've made comments on prior talkbacks on how the 3rd party developers are equally to blame for not appealing to such a high installed base, but keep in mind that the appealing demographic may not be there to warrant Rockstar making a GTA game adhered to Wii, or Valve bringing a scaled-down version of Portal to it.  A lot of companies look at statistics like attach rates, games that generate the most sales, etc.  I don't have the most up-to-date info, last time I checked Nintendo was last for attach rate. 

I can't speak as to why or if the video game media is negatively biased towards Nintendo.  I run across much more negativity towards Sony than anyone (deservedly lately). 

2.  Maybe it's just me, but as much shovelware titles as there were for PS2, they were also capable of doing multiplat games AND I recall there being many more AAA game options because they got good 3rd party supporty.

broodwarsMay 20, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

1. The "business" aspect of journalism is a problem all over because it makes the outlet's primary goal to generate hits/viewers instead of to INFORM THE AUDIENCE.  But you're right, that's the reality we live in.

However, there are millliiiiooons of Wii owners and DS owners.  If they had good business sense they would be trying to bring those people in.  Try not to think like a moron in black and white terms.  Those millions of people are not just soccer moms who don't know what a computer is.  Even if 3/4 of those Wii owners only use the console as their "third" platform? Guess what? They probably would like to know if a good game was released!!

But did Kotaku cover MH3? No. They just posted a creepy video of a foreign kid spazzing about the game.

Did Kotaku cover NMH 1+2? Yes, but they covered the (then) Japanese only PS3 port of the years old first game literally 6x more!

The fact that you cite Kotaku as a main source of your ire (and insult me by calling me a "moron thinking in terms of black and white". Thanks for that, by the way) does more damage to your argument than I could hope to achieve.

A site like IGN, Destructoid, or whatnot's job is to inform their audience while generating ad revenue from things their audience has interest in.  If their audience had interest in Wii software, it wouldn't make business sense to ignore it.  Even if every writer at these sites hated the Wii with every fiber of their being, someone would still be covering these games if their audience had the interest and hits to justify it.  And frankly, I don't see them ignoring worthwhile retail software so I find your argument invalid, and I've already stated the financial reasons why WiiWare gets overlooked.  Destructoid especially is fond of posting articles on The Last Story and Xenoblade, as is IGN (including articles on how they want these games).  For that matter, remember the massive amount of hype that IGN put behind the craptacular Conduit, with articles seemingly every day about it leading up to the game's release?

happyastoriaMay 20, 2011

I like good games.

happyastoriaMay 20, 2011

Quote from: broodwars

Quote from: NinSage

1. The "business" aspect of journalism is a problem all over because it makes the outlet's primary goal to generate hits/viewers instead of to INFORM THE AUDIENCE.  But you're right, that's the reality we live in.

However, there are millliiiiooons of Wii owners and DS owners.  If they had good business sense they would be trying to bring those people in.  Try not to think like a moron in black and white terms.  Those millions of people are not just soccer moms who don't know what a computer is.  Even if 3/4 of those Wii owners only use the console as their "third" platform? Guess what? They probably would like to know if a good game was released!!

But did Kotaku cover MH3? No. They just posted a creepy video of a foreign kid spazzing about the game.

Did Kotaku cover NMH 1+2? Yes, but they covered the (then) Japanese only PS3 port of the years old first game literally 6x more!

The fact that you cite Kotaku as a main source of your ire (and insult me by calling me a "moron thinking in terms of black and white". Thanks for that, by the way) does more damage to your argument than I could hope to achieve.

A site like IGN, Destructoid, or whatnot's job is to inform their audience while generating ad revenue from things their audience has interest in.  If their audience had interest in Wii software, it wouldn't make business sense to ignore it.  Even if every writer at these sites hated the Wii with every fiber of their being, someone would still be covering these games if their audience had the interest and hits to justify it.  And frankly, I don't see them ignoring worthwhile retail software so I find your argument invalid, and I've already stated the financial reasons why WiiWare gets overlooked.  Destructoid especially is fond of posting articles on The Last Story and Xenoblade, as is IGN (including articles on how they want these games).  For that matter, remember the massive amount of hype that IGN put behind the craptacular Conduit, with articles seemingly every day about it leading up to the game's release?

Isn't that their job? You know, to cover games. To be fair, James and Greg are the only ones who constantly play Nintendo games, the other two are a different story. But then again, when was the last time I played a Wii game? Actually, when was the last time I turned my PS3 on to play a game? Hmmmm. You see, for me, games this gen are kind of lame. I'm playing my PS2 more often than any of my current gen systems. Persona 4 is quite the amazing game!

broodwarsMay 20, 2011

Quote from: happyastoria

I'm playing my PS2 more often than any of my current gen systems. Persona 4 is quite the amazing game!

That it is, though I could do without some of the secretarial work of scheduling and micro-managing the Social Links and a lot of the grind in the randomly-generated dungeons.  Playing the PS2 so much is nothing to feel ashamed of.  In retrospect (I didn't own a PS2 until this generation), that system had an amazing library.  Unfortunately, I got rid of my PS2 when I got a backwards-compatible PS3, which unfortunately died last year and I still have some PS2 games to finish off (Shadow Hearts 2 & 3 and Wild Arms 4 & 5, all highly recommended btw).

Mop it upMay 20, 2011

I don't visit very many gaming sites (and the ones I do, it's mainly for the community/forums), so I don't really know the current state of the gaming media in terms of the big wigs like IGN, GameSpot, Kotaku, etc. I stopped caring much about what such sites think years ago, as I found actual player accounts to better suit my needs when I want game info than what any of those sites offered me.

One article I did end up hearing about though, was an article IGN posted about New Super Mario Brothers Wii being a lazy rehash, which was clearly a slander against the Wii. A reader followed up this article with a list of games on other systems that should also be considered lazy rehashes by IGN's terms, yet were instead praised. That doesn't sound fair to me, though this is just one instance so it isn't enough for to prove anything. But it is a reason why I don't pay attention to such sites.

Quote from: Mop

I don't visit very many gaming sites (and the ones I do, it's mainly for the community/forums), so I don't really know the current state of the gaming media in terms of the big wigs like IGN, GameSpot, Kotaku, etc. I stopped caring much about what such sites think years ago, as I found actual player accounts to better suit my needs when I want game info than what any of those sites offered me.

This this this!  1000X this!  Don't like what websites are saying (or not saying) about Nintendo?  Don't visit their site anymore.  You already know their revenue stream is based on the number of hits to their site.  I used to read Ars Technica all the time for gaming news, but I've found lately that some of their gaming writers are complete trolls, so i've put ad-blocker on their website so they don't get any revenue from me.

broodwarsMay 20, 2011

Quote from: Mop

One article I did end up hearing about though, was an article IGN posted about New Super Mario Brothers Wii being a lazy rehash, which was clearly a slander against the Wii.

Ugh, the forums ate my original response to this so I'll make this second attempt short:

The article you're referring to is here, and it's not a "slander against the Wii" at all.  The author praises Nintendo's business sense multiple times, as well as mentioning that he's been following Nintendo for multiple generations by that point.  What the author complains about is how Nintendo has used the Wii's technical deficiencies and huge casual sales as an excuse to put the minimal amount of effort into their 1st party software, especially in terms of presentation.  There are multiple examples of this in the article, from the duplication of Toad characters in NSMBW instead of having a real 4th character, to the rampant use of public domain music in Wii Music, to Nintendo's seeming lack of interest in using the Wii's technical prowess to its fullest.  To be frank, that's fair criticism.

NinSageMay 20, 2011


We really don't need to start splitting hairs, people.  This isn't a question of Nintendo/Wii deserving fair treatment/coverage because "it's the best gaming platform" - it's a matter of it deserving fair treatment because it is a major video game platform. Period.

Does anyone in this conversation not consider the Wii a major game platform or Nintendo a major game company? Anyone?

Quote from: lolmonade

Quote from: Mop

I don't visit very many gaming sites (and the ones I do, it's mainly for the community/forums), so I don't really know the current state of the gaming media in terms of the big wigs like IGN, GameSpot, Kotaku, etc. I stopped caring much about what such sites think years ago, as I found actual player accounts to better suit my needs when I want game info than what any of those sites offered me.

This this this!  1000X this!  Don't like what websites are saying (or not saying) about Nintendo?  Don't visit their site anymore.

Agreed 100%.  I think I expressed that sentiment in my post from last night.  I don't visit Kotaku or IGN or Destructoid anymore (though D-toid still had SOME good stuff.)  I used to enjoy ScrewAttack.com's material until they got all "hardcore" and image conscious.

I do believe that if G4 had not alienated the many Nintendo fans they used to have, they wouldn't be in the ratings trouble they are in, having been dropped from DirecTV.

Unfortunately, it's gotten so bad that all I can pay attention to are Nintendo-centric outlets.  And that's not ideal because I am interested in the other consoles too.  But I can't find one multi-platform site that isn't dripping with flame-bait and/or Nintendo-mockery 24/7.

We should demand better.  Cutting off their hits is one thing.  But I don't think these folks really get the message that way.  If someone writes something that you feel is just plain poor journalism, you should write to them, their superior, or their parent company.  Change requires action.

.... or, just keep doin' your thing, enjoy your games and ignore the insanity.  It's certainly easier and I envy you if you can do it.  But, we gotta live in this world, I'd like it to be a cool one.

PS - before anyone over 20 gets clever, not this one.  =P

Mop it upMay 20, 2011

Quote from: broodwars

To be frank, that's fair criticism.

I'd agree to that if they applied the same level of criticism to the other systems, but they do not. That was my point.

NinSageMay 20, 2011

Quote from: broodwars

... Nintendo's seeming lack of interest in using the Wii's technical prowess to its fullest.

Yea, first party Wii games are terrible. Good point!

broodwarsMay 20, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

Quote from: broodwars

... Nintendo's seeming lack of interest in using the Wii's technical prowess to its fullest.

Yea, first party Wii games are terrible. Good point!

I don't believe I've said anything of the sort, so I would appreciate you not ranting about things I haven't said.  I do think Nintendo's slacked-off when it comes to presentation (and to an extent originality) this generation with notable exceptions, but I don't think they've put out more than a couple of truly bad games this generation (those being Mario Sports Mix and Wii Music, only one of which Nintendo themselves developed).  I accepted a long time ago that the casual Nintendo titles were just not for me, so I can't call them bad.  They just aren't my thing.

Quote from: Mop

I'd agree to that if they applied the same level of criticism to the other systems, but they do not. That was my point.

I don't know, I see an awful lot of criticism on these sites about sequel-itus and their desire to see new IPs and ideas.  A lot of the sequels currently being praised were created this generation, so they haven't had 20 years to "get old".  And games that are weak from a technical standpoint tend to get reamed in reviews as well.  Sure, you have your standard-issue FPS games that tend to skate on good graces, but I see that double-standard on all the systems so long as they can still provide an enjoyable experience.

Mop it upMay 20, 2011

Oh right, I forgot that presentation is directly linked to an enjoyable experience.

I still see it as people claiming things in which they have no interest as being bad, and maintaining condescending behavior to those who differ. Gaming sites are pretty similar to what happened with the Wii third-party situation, in that's it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, and a bit of a catch 22. Just as there was no audience for third-party games because third-parties didn't make (good) games, so to are there less hits for Nintendo-related articles because there are few (good) articles.

Quote from: NinSage

Quote from: broodwars

Yea, first party Wii games are terrible.

I don't believe I've said anything of the sort,

Well, you did say the entire Wii library sucks. Twice. So I can see how that could be inferred as stating such.

broodwarsMay 20, 2011

Quote from: Mop

Well, you did say the entire Wii library sucks. Twice. So I can see how that could be inferred as stating such.

My apologies if that was the inference.  I was speaking of the library as a whole (which I thought I made clear), just as I mentioned the libraries of the HD consoles as a whole.  You can't ignore all the shovelware crap on the Wii; the notable bad 3rd party games; and what I consider to be some less-than-stellar 1st party games, which drag the quality of the entire library down.

And while it's not the entirety of the experience, presentation always plays a large role in making an experience enjoyable in our video games.  Ours is a visual, auditory, and experiential medium.  How the experience is presented matters, and that's more than just graphical fidelity.  It's also graphical design, style, tone, paying attention to small details that complement the game world, and how information is conveyed to the player.  For example, take something like Metroid Other M.  One of the huge detractors from that game's presentation is the really terrible voice acting and shoddy storytelling, which harmed my experience completely independent on the Wii's graphical capabilities. 

By contrast, I've recently been playing Killzone 2, a game with huge graphical fidelity but more importantly does a really good job of putting me in the game world and emphasizing a certain epic-ness to the proceedings.  That enables me to look past what is really a pretty standard shooter and enjoy the experience, and that's all presentation.  I've also recently played a PS3 budget title called Majin & The Forsaken Kingdom, a game with very low production values but is strong stylistically with decent storytelling that is conveyed well.  Presentation matters.

I'll tell you the same thing I tell critics of The Simpsons: of course you can ignore the bad ones. No one is forcing you to play the shovelware, and the fact that it exists shouldn't be counted against the system. Judge a system based on its good games, not by the bad ones. That having been said, the near total lack of third party support hurts the Wii in that comparison as well, but Nintendo's own software certainly makes the Wii worth owning.

Mop it upMay 20, 2011

As someone who owns over one hundred Wii games, I of course disagree about the library being sucky. But since it's largely a matter of opinion, there's not much reason for me to argue over it, as long as the complaints remain grounded.

As for presentation, style matters to me more than realism, so I'm fine with the presentation in most Wii titles. Would games look better with increased system specs? Sure, but the difference isn't as large as games that strive for realism so it doesn't matter very much to me. I don't look closely enough to notice the difference, and aren't interested in most games where it would make a difference.

Quote from: happyastoria

To be fair, James and Greg are the only ones who constantly play Nintendo games, the other two are a different story.

Greg has access to a larger pool of Nintendo games thanks to his Japanese Wii (which includes a distinct Virtual Console library and Japanese DS demos). I think you are mistaken about James bringing up Nintendo games more often in New Business. He's had just as much trouble as Jon and I. Perhaps someone will eventually do a statistical analysis. I try to always have something to say about a Nintendo game, but it's not always possible. Worthwhile releases don't happen consistently enough on any single platform (keep in mind we buy these games with our own money), and it is surprisingly difficult to bring fresh game impressions to the show every single week.

Also, I can use this space to insert the easy joke that Jon has brought a Nintendo game consistently for several weeks now... all the same game, of course.

The guys on RFN are high profile enough that they don't have to play Nintendo games anymore. It's the rest of us on staff who aren't celebrities who they make play the games that are coming out on Nintendo platforms.

NinSageMay 20, 2011

Mop it up - You are very smart.  I thank you for being awesome.

Insanolord - You are 100% correct with your Simpsons analogy.  More people should be so smart.

Jonny - You guys do a fine job keeping things focused on Nintendo.  More is always welcome, but you do just fine. 

Also, you should never feel like you have to get to a new game just to have something new to talk about.  I've really enjoyed hearing about Lindy's trek through Chrono Trigger from week to week.  It would water down the quality of the show if you guys were just rushing from game to game for the sake of fresh topics but never really dug deep enough to have anything meaningful to comment!

~

On a personal note, I find it funny that though I usually burn through games JamesJones-style, I've really played nothing but Pokémon White, PLatUnwoundFuture and DKCR since like... March.  So my "new business" would have been very "consistent" shall we say =)

PS - watched PLatEternalDiva the other night.  Flappin' awesome.  More Prof Layton games/movies can't come soon enough!

PPS - Funny story.  Since I am an (adjunct) professor with an "L" last name, I proposed to my wife by sending her to locations around town with puzzles I printed on a ProfLayton template I made.  I had friends waiting at the different locations dressed as "strangers" to give her the next puzzle.  The last location was our favorite restaurant where I was waiting with the ring. 

We're pretty awesome dorks, so, it was pretty much the coolest thing ever ^_^

CericMay 21, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

Mop it up - You are very smart.  I thank you for being awesome.

Insanolord - You are 100% correct with your Simpsons analogy.  More people should be so smart.

Jonny - You guys do a fine job keeping things focused on Nintendo.  More is always welcome, but you do just fine. 

Also, you should never feel like you have to get to a new game just to have something new to talk about.  I've really enjoyed hearing about Lindy's trek through Chrono Trigger from week to week.  It would water down the quality of the show if you guys were just rushing from game to game for the sake of fresh topics but never really dug deep enough to have anything meaningful to comment!

~

On a personal note, I find it funny that though I usually burn through games JamesJones-style, I've really played nothing but Pokémon White, PLatUnwoundFuture and DKCR since like... March.  So my "new business" would have been very "consistent" shall we say =)

PS - watched PLatEternalDiva the other night.  Flappin' awesome.  More Prof Layton games/movies can't come soon enough!

PPS - Funny story.  Since I am an (adjunct) professor with an "L" last name, I proposed to my wife by sending her to locations around town with puzzles I printed on a ProfLayton template I made.  I had friends waiting at the different locations dressed as "strangers" to give her the next puzzle.  The last location was our favorite restaurant where I was waiting with the ring. 

We're pretty awesome dorks, so, it was pretty much the coolest thing ever ^_^

So here's the real question for ya.  If you were playing Portal 2 would your Wife/Fiance/Not Sure  play Co-Op with you?

NinSageMay 21, 2011

Oh yes, she would.  Honestly, the only problem I've found with a gamer spouse (and trust me this is a good problem to have!) is that there is almost no such thing as "single player" anymore =P

If I want to play a long single-player campaign on my own schedule (rarely happens these days anyway!) I'd have to sit her down and say: "look, this game is too time-consuming to play between our separate schedules ... you play one of your games while I'm doing this one" and then she gets a little sad, but then she is happy once she goes back to Puzzle Quest for eight-hundred-billionth time ^_^

CericMay 21, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

Oh yes, she would.  Honestly, the only problem I've found with a gamer spouse (and trust me this is a good problem to have!) is that there is almost no such thing as "single player" anymore =P

If I want to play a long single-player campaign on my own schedule (rarely happens these days anyway!) I'd have to sit her down and say: "look, this game is too time-consuming to play between our separate schedules ... you play one of your games while I'm doing this one" and then she gets a little sad, but then she is happy once she goes back to Puzzle Quest for eight-hundred-billionth time ^_^

Just watch out.  My wife gamed some when we were dating but, once we got married it went out the window.

adadadMay 21, 2011

Quote from: Ceric

Just watch out.  My wife gamed some when we were dating but, once we got married it went out the window.

Funny, that sounds just like a certain cliche about marriage...

CericMay 21, 2011

Quote from: adadad

Quote from: Ceric

Just watch out.  My wife gamed some when we were dating but, once we got married it went out the window.

Funny, that sounds just like a certain cliche about marriage...

The other one is officially against forums rules but, that was right too.

Quote from: Ceric

Quote from: NinSage

Oh yes, she would.  Honestly, the only problem I've found with a gamer spouse (and trust me this is a good problem to have!) is that there is almost no such thing as "single player" anymore =P

If I want to play a long single-player campaign on my own schedule (rarely happens these days anyway!) I'd have to sit her down and say: "look, this game is too time-consuming to play between our separate schedules ... you play one of your games while I'm doing this one" and then she gets a little sad, but then she is happy once she goes back to Puzzle Quest for eight-hundred-billionth time ^_^

Just watch out.  My wife gamed some when we were dating but, once we got married it went out the window.

To me the exact opposite happened.  My wife in attempting to enjoy my hobbies with me has picked up golf and played several games with me including Kirby's Epic Yarn, Mario All Stars, Flower, Heavy Rain, and Portal 2.  She has even played my 3DS more than I have ever since we got Nintendogs + Cats: Toy Poodle or whatever.

As a tradeoff, i agree to go out and about shopping with her on occasion and watch classic movies/tv shows with her.  Marriage is all about compromise if you're with the right one. 

PlugabugzMay 22, 2011

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

Quote from: happyastoria

To be fair, James and Greg are the only ones who constantly play Nintendo games, the other two are a different story.

Greg has access to a larger pool of Nintendo games thanks to his Japanese Wii (which includes a distinct Virtual Console library and Japanese DS demos). I think you are mistaken about James bringing up Nintendo games more often in New Business. He's had just as much trouble as Jon and I. Perhaps someone will eventually do a statistical analysis. I try to always have something to say about a Nintendo game, but it's not always possible. Worthwhile releases don't happen consistently enough on any single platform (keep in mind we buy these games with our own money), and it is surprisingly difficult to bring fresh game impressions to the show every single week.

Also, I can use this space to insert the easy joke that Jon has brought a Nintendo game consistently for several weeks now... all the same game, of course.

While i should join the bandwagon of YOU DONT TALK ABOUT NINTENDO GAMES, Jonny doing the exact opposite brought me months of joy with Lara Croft and The Guardian of Light. So please, carry on.

Oh and Jonny can you recommend me another coop game please? :p

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