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Episode 240: They Call Him 'The Streak'

by James Jones, Greg Leahy, Jon Lindemann, and Jonathan Metts - April 24, 2011, 12:00 pm PDT
Total comments: 47

We've got RPGs galore, plus answers to your questions about our favorite consoles and, of course, Project Cafe.

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We'll have something special next week, but this episode follows the standard format and is full of everything you love about RFN. In New Business, James has full impressions of Phantom Brave, the Wii tactics game that perhaps no one fully understands. Jon has made significant progress in Chrono Trigger (no, really!) and, with his new commute by train, it looks like he will finish it soon and move on to even more role-playing goodness. Jonny got to play some Super Smash Bros. Brawl with TYP, but his main games this week are the awesome Portal 2 and Fallout: New Vegas, which he enjoys despite serious problems associated with the setting and Western RPG conventions. Greg completes the segment with a report on the El Shaddai demo (looks a bit like Killer 7, from the character designer of Okami), and he delivers the final word on Capcom's overlooked Okamiden for DS.

Since we ran out of time for Listener Mail last week, it was a great pleasure to catch up on this show with some of your excellent queries. First up is a survey on our favorite gaming systems of all time, including some controversy over whether PC is eligible. Then we launch into the cascade of Project Cafe letters, covering topics such as resolution/framerate utopia, the true meaning of development codenames, and whether GameCube could be the next Virtual Console system. Please keep those emails coming!

This podcast was edited by Greg Leahy.

Music for this episode of Radio Free Nintendo is used with permission from Jason Ricci & New Blood. You can purchase their newest album, Done with the Devil, directly from the record label, Amazon (CD) (MP3), or iTunes, or call your local record store and ask for it!

Additional music for this episode of Radio Free Nintendo is copyrighted to Nintendo, and is included under fair use protection.

Talkback

CericApril 24, 2011

Episode 240: Better with Jello

Pick are new Retro?

First New Business
Eskimoes have many words from Snow its how you split things. So we agree Macro is Strategy and Micro is Tactics.  Consensus Yay.

lol Ghost Cage Fighting

The Feather Duster could be Uber... Feel the Power of the Feathers.

La Pucell

It wouldn't be balanced if you could keep them.

She needs a Cinnamon Bun of Power

I'm sure someone has

That would be sadistic

Monster Rancher Tactical Battles.  :D

At least the battles are short

"Its a relatively upbeat game" As it grinds you into dust.

Jon New Business
I've been playing FF:IV while driving on my way to work. <.< >.>

FF:IV is well translated but when it doesn't flow its definetly due to space limitations of the text boxes.

It will drop you off to a village full of Animals and a vicious landlord.

Public transportation here wouldn't get me to work.

3rd New Business
Portal 2 been fun up to Chapter 4.

Prefer Melee over Brawl.

I like having PC as an option for when my Wife is using the TV.

Need to find some Co-op

Its a 3D First Person Puzzler.

A Portal Collection would probably be a good fit on the Next console.

I keep trying to get into FallOut but I just Can't.  Now I probably love reading all the story and dialog from all the games.  Did that with the MGS serious.  Had more fun with the Database then the last game.

Not big into Open World Games...

I would sum up my FallOut as conceptually fun.  Actually not.

Gregg New Business:

Designer Jeans with Armor the Keeping it Real in battle.

Sounded like 50-20 hour game lol

Thats why I didn't pick up BioShock.  I love to read the story of it and all that.

Did you right an actual Review of Okamiden?


Mailbox
Its going to be NES and SNES hands down.

Nintendo is suppose to be saying something Monday.

They did some Sea ones.

Getting early to 3rd Parties = Leaks

They promised that with the PSP connection

I bought my PS3 to get the BC before it was gone or I may have a 360 but I've been happy with the PS3 as a media center.

I want to see Virtual Boy Games for 3DS.

Yeah I see them on putting GCN on VC to make money.  Expect seeing those added really really fast.

Cubivore... Took me 3 years...

Salesbot would love Chibi to come back :D

Lets release WW with 70% less water...

The really need to vary that and make it more predictive.

Store... is... Terrible compared to a lot of others...

Hoping for SSD and full copy to the drive for games

Wow I didn't realize it was the 64mb of memory...

Yes you are.

Think pay for Input.

lol, could be...

Think about all the press it already had.  Until voting for MM's underpants I didn't know they were making that game.  I like the thing that have come from that series but I have never played one.

All the Fighting games at once lol

I've spent more to help different things without anything coming back.

Really, I don't think I've seen that...

Still...

Yeah, I had it for a bit it was...

Gregg Blocked

Got a clear invite right?

You're going to the NFL Draft?

Going to Visit?

Just call in, while driving.

Kytim89April 24, 2011

Nintendo would be smart to have the Wii 2 play Gamecube games via discs and through emulation because they can resell their first part Gamecube games without having to spend money on advertisement and retailers.

One thing that the RFN crew did not mention was whether SEGA would bring over Dreamcast to Virtual Console. It would make a good edition with the original Skies of Arcadia, Soul Caliber, Grandia 2 and Jet Set Radio on the Wii 2. As for the SEGA Saturn, yes it is hard to emulate, but perhaps SEGA can figure some way to bring it over because I would love to Saturn games on Virtual Console as well.

This is one of the main reasons as to why I am looking so forward to the Wii 2 because of what it will entail for Virtual Console. Nintendo could go a long way in breaking the ice in terms of titles that have not appeared on the service yet (sans Rare games, of course).

What does the RFN crew think of being able to play Virtual Console games with their original controllers via some kind of adapter. I have one of these adapters for my Wii and I love to be able to play NES games on Wii with the original NES controller. This would fit in well with the theme that was discussed on the show about having too many controllers for a system, but I would still not pass up the opprotunity to play Dreamcast games on the Wii 2 with the orginal Dreamcasy controller.

I would much rather play Dreamcast games with a GameCube or Wii Classic controller.

Speaking as someone who's used one somewhat recently, the Dreamcast controller is not at all comfortable to hold. Full compatibility with Dreamcast games, as well as, of course, some GameCube games, would require the return of analog shoulder buttons, one of the few negative changes to the CC Pro. If the rumored screen is there, you could even emulate the in-game VMU functionality.

I spent most of the second half of listening to this episode attempting the "Fly for Three Minutes" Hang Glider mission in Pilotwings Resort, which I'd heard stories of but never played prior to this, and finally managed to get 3 stars on it in the closing minutes.

gtownclownApril 24, 2011


Finished Chrono Trigger 2 days ago and almost through my second play through. Take that admiral never finishes shit. haha I'm about to listen to the new episode on a car ride I sure hope you didn't beat it first. But I'm very sure I have nothing at all to worry about. But seriously it just took 3rd place in my favorite RPG of all time list and it might over take ff6 if it holds out with the level of fucking awesomeness it has had so far . It has been a long time since a game has made me want to play it over and over again.


I had been stuck at the part where you have to find the wings of time for about a year or so.... well I bought it when it came out played for a week and got stuck and just now went back.(I always feel like I'm cheating when I use a walkthrough.)


Thanks for not letting this game go it honestly sparked that special feeling I got the first time I played ff6/3. I hope the admiral gets the same enjoyment I have from it.


And as always this show is what it is because it is edited well. I can't even imagine the level of frustrations that are involved with editing this mess but thank you.


PS Help the Japanese podcast with there sound levels editing. One of the voices makes my ears hurt with headphones and in my car just needs turned down a little or something.

KDR_11kApril 24, 2011

I know a lively fellow who's really quite unique. He's small and smart and yellow, with a rodent-like physique. He doesn't play the cello and he never deigns to speak. He's the Strong Man's leporello and they just call him The Streeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaak!

Killer_Man_JaroTom Malina, Associate Editor (Europe)April 24, 2011

Jonny, I think your Western RPG experimentation would have gone better if you'd rented Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. It shares some of its core fundamentals with the new era Fallout games, but the world is so, so, so far superior in almost every conceivable way. Although since you expressed interest in Skyrim, I guess it makes sense to wait for that one.

On another page, if you wanted to play Portal 2's co-op campaign at some point, I'd gladly be your robot buddy.

oohhboyHong Hang Ho, Staff AlumnusApril 25, 2011

The problem with Fallout 3 was due to it effectively being a giant Oblivion hack and Oblivion was never a good game. All the issues found in Oblivion made it's way to Fallout pretty much wholesale. The combat engine was always inadequate for the job magnified by the extensive use of firearms, the same bugginess and the same "Meh" environment of bland where plant life was the least of the issues. Even when heavily modded, it not fun to play.

The original 2 Fallout games abstracted traveling to a map, so whenever you stop somewhere it's always somewhere of interest unless you intentionally stopped in the middle of nowhere. I could go on about how much better the original fallouts are, but I am in no mood to type out a thesis.

"War, war never changes" has opened every fallout game and is pretty much fan service at this point.

If you want to play more Western "RPGs" I would highly suggest you go Eastern Europe with the S.T.A.L.K.E.R series. There are no levels or most of the usual conventions you expect from an RPG, but it has Roleplaying up the yinyan. As you play the game, you get better at playing it as you learn the hazards, get better equipment making you stronger, more capable to handle more and greater threats. It's on PC and be sure to patch it otherwise it is very nasty to play. Feel free to skip Clear Skies and move on to Call of Pripyat which contains everything good and almost none of the nasty elements found in previous games.

If a mid range PC isn't on the cards, then you could look at the near endless number of rouge-like you can play for free. To start you off lite, I highly recommend DOOM RL. Rouge-likes are not much to look at, but this is where the real bleeding edge of Western RPGs start at in the purely gameplay point of view.

FZeroBoyoApril 25, 2011

Let me start by saying: that little history session that Greg presented at the end was an awesome way to end the episode.


I actually started playing Chrono Trigger not to long ago too. Haven't put a lot of time into it, but I certainly hope to finish it soon and hear Jon finally complete it and get the biggest (?) cause of Lindemann Syndrome of his back. =P I played Fallout: New Vegas and while I did find it to be unstable with some minor freezes and long loading times, I found exploring and finding places to be intriguing and it was a surprisingly engaging experience for me.


As for favorite systems, my favorite console would be the Nintendo 64 mostly because 3 of my favorite games ever are on it (Banjo-Tooie, Majora's Mask, and Perfect Dark). My favorite handheld would be the DS because, as was said on the show, there's such a broad range of genres and I've tried out a number of them and have enjoyed them.


With Cafe/Stream/Wii 2 being confirmed a few hours ago, I'm certainly hoping that Nintendo will create a much more powerful system. As was said on one of these shows, it's not that they're using stronger hardware, it's just what hardware is on the market today. The 360 and PS3 are powerful, but they're roughly 5 to 6 years old now.

Dozy BoyApril 25, 2011

Mmm. Could someone confirm that Nintendo systems' codenames that began with D and R actually stood for the concepts of 'hardware still in D.evelopment' and 'hardware that was R.eady?' I'm almost certain that I saw an interview in Nintendo Power around the turn of the century that gave away this tidbit. But Google won't give me anything. This would include Reality, Dolphin, and Revolution and possibly others.

noname2200April 25, 2011

I think there was some miscommunication regarding Jon's progress in Chrono Trigger. It sounds like Jonny thought Jon was already able to fly, while I think Jon's only just gotten the machine and still hasn't beaten the floating-rock dungeon. In any case, that dungeon was the hardest part of the game for me, and its two bosses (the red/blue combo Jon mentioned, and the last boss of that dungeon) are significantly tougher than what follows, so hang in there Jon!

CericApril 25, 2011

Quote from: noname2200

I think there was some miscommunication regarding Jon's progress in Chrono Trigger. It sounds like Jonny thought Jon was already able to fly, while I think Jon's only just gotten the machine and still hasn't beaten the floating-rock dungeon. In any case, that dungeon was the hardest part of the game for me, and its two bosses (the red/blue combo Jon mentioned, and the last boss of that dungeon) are significantly tougher than what follows, so hang in there Jon!

He's been two timing and has Chrono Train on his Twitter.  Its on the NWR Front page and he has an update so that might tell you more exact where he's at.

noname2200April 25, 2011

Quote from: Ceric

Quote from: noname2200

I think there was some miscommunication regarding Jon's progress in Chrono Trigger. It sounds like Jonny thought Jon was already able to fly, while I think Jon's only just gotten the machine and still hasn't beaten the floating-rock dungeon. In any case, that dungeon was the hardest part of the game for me, and its two bosses (the red/blue combo Jon mentioned, and the last boss of that dungeon) are significantly tougher than what follows, so hang in there Jon!

He's been two timing and has Chrono Train on his Twitter.  Its on the NWR Front page and he has an update so that might tell you more exact where he's at.

There's a front page?! o_O

CericApril 25, 2011

Quote from: noname2200

Quote from: Ceric

Quote from: noname2200

I think there was some miscommunication regarding Jon's progress in Chrono Trigger. It sounds like Jonny thought Jon was already able to fly, while I think Jon's only just gotten the machine and still hasn't beaten the floating-rock dungeon. In any case, that dungeon was the hardest part of the game for me, and its two bosses (the red/blue combo Jon mentioned, and the last boss of that dungeon) are significantly tougher than what follows, so hang in there Jon!

He's been two timing and has Chrono Train on his Twitter.  Its on the NWR Front page and he has an update so that might tell you more exact where he's at.

There's a front page?! o_O

I know.  I'm often surprised by that as well.

Now that I'm staff, I need to be outraged at that kind of attitude, and strongly urge people to go to the front page often.

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

Now that I'm staff, I need to be outraged at that kind of attitude, and strongly urge people to go to the front page often.

I make the pretty pictures in the squares.

SonofMrPeanutApril 25, 2011

While your "What happens to the 3DS?" concern might be valid at first glance, Jonathan, rumors so far only indicate a screen.  Significant internal memory storage was never confirmed by any source.  From what we've heard so far, the games will "stream" to the controller within a certain range.  If you're within the limits of your property (unless you live on a Ranch or something), you can play with it anywhere.  If you're outside those limits, however, it would not work like the NGP/PS3 relationship will.  The console would also need to be on.


I think this is likely, so I wouldn't worry about the controller taking too much of a chunk out of the 3DS' economic space.  Plus I doubt it would be 3D, so there.

It is unreasonable of me to think the code name "Cafe" has to do with the idea of connectivity with other people?  When I heard the word I think social gathering with free wireless internet.  I can't help but think this is an inkling towards Nintendo putting a serious foot forward on their online infrastructure.

As unlikely as I think it is, I would really like to see the option to utilize a DSI or 3DS as a spare controller for the new Nintendo system.  I have the same problem with piles of plastic controllers that Jonny has, and would love to be able to use my 3DS as a second controller instead of having to drop $50 for a 2nd/3rd controller.

Quote from: FZeroBoyo

I actually started playing Chrono Trigger not to long ago too. Haven't put a lot of time into it, but I certainly hope to finish it soon and hear Jon finally complete it and get the biggest (?) cause of Lindemann Syndrome of his back. =P I played Fallout: New Vegas and while I did find it to be unstable with some minor freezes and long loading times, I found exploring and finding places to be intriguing and it was a surprisingly engaging experience for me.

Enjoy your playthrough.  Nothing like playing Chrono Trigger for the first time.  My first RPG was Final Fantasy VII, and I came back and played Chrono Trigger on PS1, and even the terrible menus and load times couldn't ruin my wonderful experience with that game.

Maybe i'm just getting old, or don't have enough time, but I can't bring myself to invest time in an RPG lately.  I end of thinking for a while that i've just grown out of the genre, but I love coming back to Chrono Trigger, FF IV, and the PS1 FF games. 

NinSageApril 25, 2011

Another fantastic episode.

I have been in podcast heaven lately while traveling.

Anyway... responses....

1. From the PS2 days to the Wii, I always wanted to play Phantom Brave.  The art style looked great and the gameplay looked fun.  However, hearing the description during the podcast?? I reeeeeally don't think I would like it.  Maybe someday if it's super cheap I'll pickup the Wii version but it sounds like too much of a headache for me.

Btw, is Phantom Brave truly a spin-off to the story of Disgaea? Or is it just a game with a similar aesthetic?

2. Lindy, you've given me a new Pokémon catch phrase - "gotta catch a substantial amount!"

3. I also thought of some kind of "social" aspect when I heard the term Café associated with the new Nintendo console.  I certainly wouldn't put a lot of stock in the codenames for consoles.  For instance, putting the Gamecube in water does not function as well as a Dolphin.

However, I think if there was a meaning behind the Revolution codename it may have been a more literal interpretation - simply, to revolve/rotate/turn, like axis of data communicated by the wiimote as it traveled through 3-dimensional space - something that was novel at the time.

Funny, assuming that is closer to the intended meaning of the codename, this gen saw the "revolution" and the "360" ... if only the Dreamcast had been around with its spiral-y logo!
... the only thing Sony spun this generation was its wheels! !>
I kid, I kid. Kaz knows I have been "not e" since '95.

KDR_11kApril 26, 2011

1080p60 depends on the developers, not the hardware. Few HD games run on 60 FPS while Nintendo almost always delivers 60 even though the Wii is much weaker than the HD systems. Developers have to decide how to allocate the system's resources and if they decide to spend the power on making it pretty instead of making it fast then the resolution and framerate are going to suffer no matter what the hardware does. The PC is special because it's not a fixed hardware platform, anybody with a PC that's better than what the developers exploited will get a better resolution and framerate as a result.

I think Nintendo will likely make games run at 1080p at a steady 60 frames per second. That's just how Nintendo operates.

Quote from: Crimm

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

Now that I'm staff, I need to be outraged at that kind of attitude, and strongly urge people to go to the front page often.

I make the pretty pictures in the squares.

They're so pretty.

CericApril 26, 2011

Quote from: Crimm

Quote from: Crimm

Quote from: NWR_insanolord

Now that I'm staff, I need to be outraged at that kind of attitude, and strongly urge people to go to the front page often.

I make the pretty pictures in the squares.

They're so pretty.

They're Crimm's Precious.

Eh, I'm not sold on the DS one, but it was late and I was tired.'


I had a better one for the updated Wii Successor rumor list but my image editor died just as it was saving.

CericApril 26, 2011

Quote from: Crimm

Eh, I'm not sold on the DS one, but it was late and I was tired.'


I had a better one for the updated Wii Successor rumor list but my image editor died just as it was saving.

Hate when that happens.  You mean the red DS top?

Yeah. Wanted a splash of color, but not a lot of hardware publicity shots straight on the unit (not rotated/askew) with it closed.

YoshidiousGreg Leahy, Staff AlumnusApril 26, 2011

Quote from: KDR_11k

1080p60 depends on the developers, not the hardware. Few HD games run on 60 FPS while Nintendo almost always delivers 60 even though the Wii is much weaker than the HD systems. Developers have to decide how to allocate the system's resources and if they decide to spend the power on making it pretty instead of making it fast then the resolution and framerate are going to suffer no matter what the hardware does.

I think Nintendo will likely make games run at 1080p at a steady 60 frames per second. That's just how Nintendo operates.

Of course you are right that developers make choices about the resolution and framerate that their games run in, but let's not overly downplay the importance of hardware in how these outcomes are reached. Hardware specs define the set of trade-offs that developers face when crafting a game's visuals, and therefore establish the set of options that developers have to choose from before they apply their preferences and priorities to the problem and reach a balance that they think fits their game design best. 

For instance, it was possible to achieve 60fps even on N64 (as demonstrated by F-Zero X), but the sacrifices necessary to achieve this in terms of detail, draw distance, polygon count etc. were so severe that it would not have been really viable for Nintendo to try and make, for example, a Zelda game that ran in 60fps on N64. I'm sure it wasn't literally impossible, but in practice the hardware limitations of the N64 essentially prevented this from happening, not just Nintendo's discretion.

Of course, today's consoles (and tomorrow's in the case of Project Cafe) don't present constraints nearly as severe as the N64, but they are not yet so powerful that fundamentally similar trade-offs have ceased to exist, and so again certain kinds of games are less likely to run in 60fps and/or 1080p than others. Nintendo develops and publishes a very wide range of games, so I don't expect to see a one-size-fits-all policy from them.

In many cases I think framerate will be a priority: responsiveness-leveraged games like Mario, Punch-Out!! or F-Zero are very likely to run at 60fps on the new console, and if it's significantly easier to do that at sub-1080p resolution, then chances are Nintendo will make that trade-off. On the other hand, a game like Pikmin with its unique, highly-detailed visual style would likely benefit more from 1080p support than a silky smooth framerate, and again--dependent on the hardware specs--it may be not be possible to have both without compromising Pikmin's aesthetic in some way, which Nintendo probably would not think is a worthwhile sacrifice just for a better framerate in a game of its kind.

I do think though that Nintendo tends to prioritise functionality and is clearly far less concerned with making games that look gaudy in screenshots and online videos than most HD developers have been, so it wouldn't surprise me if we saw more 1080p/60fps games from them than anyone else, I just don't expect it to be nearly enough of a priority for them to see it happen across the board or even the majority of the time--they will tailor the visuals to the needs of each individual game according to the possibilities set out by the hardware, creating a whole spectrum of different results. 

CericApril 26, 2011

I have to disagree here.  The Gamecube, if memory serves, had a set resolution you had to program to.  I think it be a huge folly if Nintendo didn't make it a point to take the most intensive game they made this gen and make sure they could run the most intense part at 1080p 60fps as a baseline.  I would also simulate the most intense sequences from the other consoles going that way.  I don't see Nintendo going half in when they make the jump HD.  It would be a mistake not to just go ahead and take the bull by the horns.

@Crimm: I like the Cap Shield you picked for the impression square.

@RFN:  Retroactive,  When we be seeing the new vote?

sambsknApril 26, 2011

I've been playing more Radiant Historia since listening to this episode, I'm around 10 hours in and I finally understand James' aching over the character and his arm parts. I really couldn't  agree about how little use he is in battle. But the game is still incredible.



GameCube developers had the option of 480i or 480p. There is some performance hit associated with progressive scan, although supposedly it is less than doubling resolution from 240i to 480i (the so-called "hi-res" mode on N64, usually featured in games supporting the RAM Expansion Pak).

TrueNerdApril 27, 2011

I started listening to RFN again after years (years!) of neglecting it. It's good. Better than I remember it. You guys have a good team assembled. I'm sorry I ever abandoned RFN. It won't happen again.

NinSageApril 28, 2011

Just a quick question to pose to the room:

What will mean more to you, Project Café being significantly more powerful than the PS3 but carrying a $600+ price tag? Or, being somewhat on par with the PS3 and coming in closer to $400?

Personally, I'm already in the midst of saving up for a 3DS for NEXT year.  I can't imagine heaping a new console on top of that.

Thoughts?

It isn't significantly more powerful.
It will not cost $600.


None of my research on the topic has indicated either are even remotely possible.

CericApril 28, 2011

Quote from: Crimm

It isn't significantly more powerful.
It will not cost $600.


None of my research on the topic has indicated either are even remotely possible.

This sounds like a personal challenge.

Shame though you haven't found some place that says it will be significantly more powerful.

oohhboyHong Hang Ho, Staff AlumnusApril 28, 2011

It's trivial to have more power at a lower cost for game oriented purposes than the PS3 especially after 5+ years of developments in processor tech and factoring the fact most of the so called power is poorly orientated to gaming. The GPU was a generation old compared to the 360, it only had one general purpose unit on the CPU. The rest were pure maths units which was overkill for physics and really inefficient for graphics since it had to do all sorts of hoop jumping to render it along side the GPU which sits on it's own memory with terrible bandwidth between them.

Most of the cost was due to the experimental nature of the Cell with high R&D and low volumes since it was pretty much exclusively used on the PS3. While the Cell was suppost to be used in super computers, it mostly found it's way in to that application via PS3 clusters. A Cell variant found it's way in the the Road Runner Super Computer(Fastest during 2008/2009).

As long as Nintendo makes a game console, not a super computer tech demo masquerading as a console, price won't be an issue. What I worry about the new Nintendo console is the price of the controllers, it's getting out of control.

NinSageApril 28, 2011

Quote from: oohhboy

What I worry about the new Nintendo console is the price of the controllers, it's getting out of control.

No pun intended? =P

I've thought about this controller thing.  Here's my guess: the new controller will be like a dreamcast controller (traditional button layout with a (touch)screen) but with gyroscopic motion controls.  It will not be cheap, but it will be a one-time purchase unlike the stacking purchases from nunchuks, M+, CC, etc.

As for motion controls, my guess is Nintendo will make the existing Wiimote Plus work with Project Cafe.  Sure, they might release a new one that is cosmetically consistent with the new console.  But we know the wiimote will have to work since the system is B/C... and I highly doubt Nintendo would be releasing a new controller whose motion was EVEN BETTER than (near) 1:1.

Dig it?

CericApril 28, 2011

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/3dsteardown.php

That is a breakdown of the 3DS cost and DSi.  Which would be similar in somethings.  Taking out the different parts that aren't needed I can see the controller costing about $45 to make with what we think it has.  If I were Nintendo I take a small margin because its only an enabler to move software.  So I price it at  $55-60.  I did  some research and I couldn't find what they normally make off of controllers.  I would really like those numbers and the breakdown cost.

If they can do it for under $60, that'll work. Maybe $70, but I don't know. Anything more isn't feasible.

motangApril 29, 2011

Funny how you guys teasing Jon about not ever finishing up Chrono Trigger, really hit home. So I also popped my DS card back in couple of weeks ago and started playing again (I had stopped at the spot with Magus' first encounter).  Now I am bit further, and can't put the game down. Awesome game, once I am done with Chrono Trigger I will move on Radiant Historia.

I think the Blu-Ray drive was also a major cost factor when PS3 first launched. It was the first mass consumer device with that technology (shipping orders of magnitude more drives than any of the competing movie players at that time). Clearly, such a component is not nearly as expensive these days, and that goes for other tech as well. This new console will be more about Nintendo catching up to industry standards than about exceeding those standards. Because they are coming into it so late, it will be far more cost-effective for them. I have no doubt that Sony and Microsoft will follow-up with much more powerful hardware, but that will be a couple of years later at significantly higher prices.

noname2200April 29, 2011

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

I have no doubt that Sony and Microsoft will follow-up with much more powerful hardware, but that will be a couple of years later at significantly higher prices.

I agree with the rest of what you said, but I'm wondering if this part  will be true. It's clear that the tech is available, yes, but with dev prices already as insanely high as they are now, would devs be able to afford to make games for a system that's much more powerful than what we have at this moment? They've certainly shown that they generally can't squeeze a profit from the current prices; wouldn't going much higher just ensure that they'll get as little third-party support as Nintendo does now?

CericApril 29, 2011

Quote from: noname2200

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

I have no doubt that Sony and Microsoft will follow-up with much more powerful hardware, but that will be a couple of years later at significantly higher prices.

I agree with the rest of what you said, but I'm wondering if this part  will be true. It's clear that the tech is available, yes, but with dev prices already as insanely high as they are now, would devs be able to afford to make games for a system that's much more powerful than what we have at this moment? They've certainly shown that they generally can't squeeze a profit from the current prices; wouldn't going much higher just ensure that they'll get as little third-party support as Nintendo does now?

I honestly think Dev costs won't go much up from here once everything settles at 1080p assets.  Thats going to be the biggest for a while.  No one is truly ready for the next jump yet.  In fact I think the next bump will bring more parity to the systems.

Quote from: noname2200

Quote from: Jonnyboy117

I have no doubt that Sony and Microsoft will follow-up with much more powerful hardware, but that will be a couple of years later at significantly higher prices.

I agree with the rest of what you said, but I'm wondering if this part  will be true. It's clear that the tech is available, yes, but with dev prices already as insanely high as they are now, would devs be able to afford to make games for a system that's much more powerful than what we have at this moment? They've certainly shown that they generally can't squeeze a profit from the current prices; wouldn't going much higher just ensure that they'll get as little third-party support as Nintendo does now?

It's already been semi-confirmed they're both targeting two years from now for their new systems

NinSageApril 29, 2011

Yea, I really just think that the graphics/processing side of technological advancement is yielding diminishing returns both in the experience and in the profits to be made.  Unfortunately, that means less bang for more bucks - and that's not a business model I'm psyched about.

So, I would love it if Nintendo kept doing "their thing" - lower costs and better (IMO) gaming experiences.  I also admire that they have been moving technology diagonally forward (IR pointing, touchscreens on handhelds, various forms of motion control) as opposed to just straight forward with higher processing power/screen resolutions.

Now, I know that admiring Nintendo and not caring about dick-waving system specs must mean I'm a """fan boy."""  But keep in mind, this is all coming from a guy who hadn't owned a Nintendo platform since the NES/GB.  I only got a SNES, N64 and Gamecube when my (now) wife and I got our place together (yea, she's a catch ^_^ )

And wouldn't a 2013 release of the PS4 be breaking their "10 year life cycle" of the PS3? Or is it gonna be like how they still think we're in the PS2's life cycle because the thing keeps selling?

CericApril 30, 2011

Quote from: NinSage

Yea, I really just think that the graphics/processing side of technological advancement is yielding diminishing returns both in the experience and in the profits to be made.  Unfortunately, that means less bang for more bucks - and that's not a business model I'm psyched about.

So, I would love it if Nintendo kept doing "their thing" - lower costs and better (IMO) gaming experiences.  I also admire that they have been moving technology diagonally forward (IR pointing, touchscreens on handhelds, various forms of motion control) as opposed to just straight forward with higher processing power/screen resolutions.

Now, I know that admiring Nintendo and not caring about dick-waving system specs must mean I'm a """fan boy."""  But keep in mind, this is all coming from a guy who hadn't owned a Nintendo platform since the NES/GB.  I only got a SNES, N64 and Gamecube when my (now) wife and I got our place together (yea, she's a catch ^_^ )

And wouldn't a 2013 release of the PS4 be breaking their "10 year life cycle" of the PS3? Or is it gonna be like how they still think we're in the PS2's life cycle because the thing keeps selling?

To be honest as a Game System the PS3 is a flop.  As a Blu-ray Player/Home Media Center its great and a wild success. 

noname2200April 30, 2011

Quote from: Ceric

I honestly think Dev costs won't go much up from here once everything settles at 1080p assets.  Thats going to be the biggest for a while.  No one is truly ready for the next jump yet.  In fact I think the next bump will bring more parity to the systems.

That's what I'm thinking too. The hardware to make consoles have far more horsepower than we have now is certainly commercially viable. The PC, for example, has been able to outstrip the HD consoles for years now, as it has in every previous generation, but this is the first generation I can remember where PC games don't really go far above-and-beyond, in terms of horsepower, above their console counterparts. I have to imagine it's due to commercial viability: by and large developers and publishers this generation are swimming in red ink like no generation before, notwithstanding that revenues are at historically high levels. Like ninsage, I have to imagine that the HD consoles are near the cieling of what's commercially viable, in terms of dev costs, at least until much better dev tools become available.

If that's the case, can the new MS and Sony consoles really be a huge leap, horsepower-wise, beyond the current HD consoles?

Quote from: Crimm

It's already been semi-confirmed they're both targeting two years from now for their new systems


True, but that's not what I was getting at. I've no doubt that new consoles are coming from MS and Sony. I must doubt that those new consoles will be "much" more powerful. Stream will likely end up being the weakest of the three, but only to the degree that the PS2 was weaker than the Gamecube and Xbox. I think MS and Sony will have to pull a Wii, and make something beyond mere added horsepower be the primary hook of their new system.

adadadApril 30, 2011

Quote from: noname2200

True, but that's not what I was getting at. I've no doubt that new consoles are coming from MS and Sony. I must doubt that those new consoles will be "much" more powerful. Stream will likely end up being the weakest of the three, but only to the degree that the PS2 was weaker than the Gamecube and Xbox. I think MS and Sony will have to pull a Wii, and make something beyond mere added horsepower be the primary hook of their new system.

The tech aspect I think is going to depend on several different factors: one, the cost and whether or not the game divisions at Microsoft and Sony can get the permission to sell their hardware at a loss again (seems highly unlikely in Sony's case at least). Second, is a tech hike going to affect third party support adversely due to the financial barrier of entry - we know devs are tech whores but aside from companies like Epic and id it's easy to imagine other, smaller companies being priced out of the market if the graphics hike is too large. I think you're probably right noname, that Nintendo's console will be the least powerful but not by a huge amount, and that could make all the difference for third party support. This generation one of the major advantages Nintendo's competitors have had is that ports are easy to make across PC, PS3 and 360, and the install base for these systems is large enough for it to be worth the risk of putting out big budget titles (especially considering by the time the Wii came out and started making sales waves there were already 10 million 360s out there). A smaller divide between the three consoles would mean ports all round. For that reason I actually wonder whether Sony and Microsoft might push for a large tech increase simply to try and remove Nintendo's console from the port equation like this gen, but I doubt it will happen.

One of the disadvantages of the new Nintendo system might be, assuming its horsepower is similar to that of the PS3 and/or 360, that there might not be enough of an incentive for...shall we say...traditional gamers (I don't want to say hardcore - I'm referring I suppose to people who like gaming with traditional, dual analog-y controls) to upgrade if N's system isn't getting third party exclusives. What I mean is that it won't be enough for Nintendo to simply get ports of, say, a new mainline Call of Duty game if it's going to look virtually identical to versions being released on last-generation consoles (360 and PS3), because then there's no incentive for those console owners to upgrade unless they happen to be a Nintendo fan. A hypothetical situation which, of course, would probably be more than enough to satisfy Nintendo fans, but I'm sure Nintendo are going to be looking for a PS2 level of dominance this time around, which means they need to appeal outside of their own hardcore fans and casual players (as well as bringing in those too of course!).

After this generation, I think that Nintendo has lost the "hardcore" fans forever.  They've painted themselves into a corner, gamer demographic-wise, that I don't think they'll ever be able to get out of.  Granted, that corner has netted them sales of 80+ million consoles and more money than any of us can imagine, so you can't say it's been a bad move.  But I think that, as a brand, Nintendo is viewed more than ever as catering exclusively to families and Nintendo fans. I don't even think that gamers looking for edgier fare (first-person shooters, fighting games, cutting-edge RPGs, violent action games) even consider Nintendo an option at this point.  In a way, it's a realization of the process Nintendo started with the SNES; they're officially the video game Disney, and that's exactly what they've always wanted to be.

The Golem Sisters took a dirt nap, BTW.  Now I need to wrap up the Ocean Palace (haven't had a chance to get back to it since Friday).

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