DS

North America

The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass

by Zachary Miller - October 5, 2007, 9:26 am PDT
Total comments: 195

7.5

It's like Wind Waker without all the stuff that made Wind Waker so awesome.

There are two kinds of Zelda fans in the world. There are those who appreciate the series for the exploration aspect. These people enjoy overturning the overworld, searching for Heart Pieces, secret holes, mini-games, and interesting characters. I include myself in this category, and we tend to think that Wind Waker is the greatest Zelda story ever told. And then there are the dungeon-crawlers, who find overworld shenanigans a tireless chore to the real meat and potatoes of the game: dungeons. These people seem to like Twilight Princess the best (yeah, I’m using modern examples). Personally, I couldn’t stand Twilight Princess for reasons I won’t go into here. Wind Waker, however, is in my Top 3. It’s my favorite video game in recent years. I still tool around with my original save file to this day, searching for that ever-out-of-reach final Heart Piece. Anyway, when I heard that Nintendo was crafting a sequel to Wind Waker on the DS, I was overjoyed. I was bouncing off the walls when my NWR colleagues recruited me to review the game. I received the game two days ago, and have been furiously playing it ever since. And I’ve got something to tell both the explorers and dungeon-crawlers among you: this ain’t the Zelda you know and love.

The game opens with a brief (and very entertaining) storyboard explaining the events of Wind Waker and follows it up with a cinematic scene detailing Tetra’s kidnapping by an evil ghost pirate ship (I’m really not spoiling anything, folks). Link leaps overboard to save her, but he ends up in the briny depths, only to be rescued by a fairy named Navi… I mean, Ciela. Upon speaking with Ciela’s grandpa, Link learns that the ghost ship kidnaps people on a fairly usual basis, and if he wants to rescue his friend, Link must find the guardians of Power, Wisdom, and Courage. It's sort of like every Zelda game since Link to the Past. Our hero sets out with Ciela in tow and a questionable sea captain named Linebeck, who charters Link from island to island. Although a bit too talkative, Linebeck has his moments and eventually proves useful in your journey.

As you may have heard, Phantom Hourglass has a unique control scheme which depends entirely on your skills with the stylus. Hold the stylus on the screen in the direction you want Link to run. Tap enemies or make a horizontal line to make Link attack with his sword. Draw a circle around Link to do a spin attack. Trace the path of your boomerang, set a course for your boat, aim bombs, rocks, and arrows…it’s all done with the stylus. The only button you’ll ever press is B, and that’s to quickly bring the map screen down for you to write on. This is one of the best aspects of the game, in fact: writing on your map. You can take notes, point to important locations, and just plain scribble all over your maps. In one memorable instance, you’ll have to trace the outline of an unmapped island, then mark the locations of four Gossip Stones to solve a riddle.

Unfortunately, the stylus control takes some serious getting-used-to for Zelda veterans. Any kind of D-pad control scheme (even one for left handers using the ABXY buttons) is absent, and while Nintendo’s goal was to make the process more streamlined and intuitive, I never forgot that I was holding a stylus, dragging and tapping it on the screen like a monkey to make Link move. Using items is a chore, for example, because you must first tap "Items," then tap the item you want, then tap the item window, the use the item. God forbid you should have to switch items in the middle of a fight. Furthermore, because I can’t draw a straight line to save my life (with a tiny stylus, anyway), my ship and boomerang routes often look more like desperate squiggles than methodic attempts. I certainly appreciate what Nintendo is trying to do, but in practice the control scheme is a little awkward. I must praise the amount of experimentation in Phantom Hourglass, though. You’ll be "stamping" your map by closing your DS, yelling at a shopkeeper, blowing out candles, and using the top screen to see what your enemy sees. It’s a shame that none of these unique applications are used more than once or twice, but there’s always something new to try, and Phantom Hourglass goes out of its way to demonstrate the unique gameplay possibilities afforded by the DS.

The much-lauded (or laughed-at) Wind Waker aesthetic is in full effect for Phantom Hourglass, albeit in a low-res sort of way. The game really is in 3D, though, and it’s good-looking 3D. Characters are just as expressive as they are in Wind Waker, and the primary colors and simplistic texturing are still there. Looks aside, however, Phantom Hourglass is an entirely different game. This is both good and bad. I was worried, frankly, that Nintendo would somehow bring Ganon back into the game, even though he’d been stabbed in the head and turned to stone by Link just before the beginning of this game. And if not Ganon, we’d get Vaati, that awkward fill-in villain whose ties to the greater series continuity have always been in question. Instead, we get a brand new storyline featuring a brand new antagonist, which is a huge plus. Sadly, though, after the game’s opening sequence, there are no plotline or character ties to Wind Waker. Phantom Hourglass lacks the mythos of Wind Waker, and it can’t decide whether it wants to be an entirely separate game or not.

Phantom Hourglass’s gameplay flow also mimics that of Twilight Princess more so than Wind Waker. This DS game is basically a dungeon crawler, and trips to other islands exist only so you can learn about where the next dungeon is. Sure, there are some token "new islands" to discover, but their contents are rarely very exciting. I greatly enjoyed the freedom offered by Wind Waker. If I wanted to, I could forego the main quest for days and explore instead, completing my map of the Great Sea, finding neat stuff on interesting islands…you get the idea. Phantom Hourglass, however, does not meet that need. Instead, island-hopping is a practical matter. The weather conditions never change, the sea never swells, and you’ll rarely see another ship anywhere. I’m sure this is due to hardware limitations, but I really miss that aspect of Wind Waker.

Even Twilight Princess fans, though, will be groaning in agony about the Temple of the Sea King, a horrendous chore of a dungeon which I’ll have to use some apt comparisons to illustrate. Remember how, in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, you were often asked to travel to Dark Aether? It had an acidic atmosphere that constantly drained your health, and to survive, you had to travel between safe zones, where your health would slowly go back up. But Dark Aether was never fun (until much later in the game). Well, imagine a Zelda dungeon like that, with typical dungeon puzzles. Now add invincible guards who wander the halls and have a Metal Gear Solid-like vision cone. If you’re seen by a guard, you usually die (unless you can get to a safe zone). Also, and this is the kicker, there’s a timer. Yes, a timer. When that timer runs out, your health begins to plummet. Oh, and I forgot to mention that you’ll have to traverse this dungeon several different times. In fact, each time you complete an overworld dungeon, you will have to go back to the Temple of the Ocean King and start from the very beginning, with all the puzzles reset, and a little bit more time in the hourglass (this gets a tad less severe later in the game), and go farther into the dungeon. After every overworld boss, you gain access to a new basement level, the theory being that you’ll eventually confront the game’s final boss.

The fact that you don’t get to start from where you left off is mind-boggling. Why Nintendo would make the horrifying decision to make players dredge through the whole freaking dungeon multiple times is beyond me. Is artificially lengthening the game their goal? Why not just put more islands on the map, or resort to that tired old light/dark world mechanic? I should mention here that Nintendo stripped a lot of Zelda mainstays from the game, including Heart Pieces, the dungeon compass, and wallet upgrades. These are all welcome changes (except the Heart Pieces), but the Temple of the Ocean King is beyond ridiculous.

I guess I should mention the two-player Wi-Fi game. No, it’s not Four Swords. Instead, it’s a mini-game that mimics the Temple of the Ocean King! Need I go on? One player is Link, who tries to collect Force Gems and sneak past the other player, who is a Phantom (one of the giant invincible guards). The multiplayer does have the advantage of being single-card downloadable, but other DS games have much stronger Wi-Fi outings, chief among them Metroid Prime: Hunters and Mario Kart DS. By comparison to those meaty offerings, the multiplayer component of Phantom Hourglass seems like a tagged-on feature.

It’s obvious that Nintendo has tailored Phantom Hourglass to a more casual, less Zelda-familiar audience. From the touch screen controls to the lack of connection with Wind Waker and the strip-mining of traditional Zelda items, you need not be a Zelda vet to enjoy Phantom Hourglass. At the same time, though, it becomes difficult to fully enjoy Phantom Hourglass if you are a Zelda vet. The lack of even an option for D-pad control tells me that Nintendo did not have their Zelda fan base in mind when they were creating Phantom Hourglass. And that’s okay, I guess. It’s still a decent game, but it’s also a game apart from the rest of the series. It just feels different, and I think it demonstrates that Nintendo is reluctant to sail into the murky waters beyond Wind Waker. The end of that game left a lot of possibilities open, but the path taken by Phantom Hourglass is, in all honesty, lame. Try not to think of Phantom Hourglass as a direct sequel to Wind Waker, and perhaps instead as a sort of pseudo-sequel, like Majora’s Mask was to Ocarina of Time. Then you might enjoy it more. Me? I am just sad to see so many great characters and gameplay mechanics left at the docks while Nintendo sailed into more casual waters.

Score

Graphics Sound Control Gameplay Lastability Final
9 6 9 6.5 6 7.5
Graphics
9

I can’t really fault the 3D look, but the environments can, on occasion, look pretty bland (especially dungeons). There are no weather effects while on the open sea, and many of the character models look, for lack of a better word, unfinished.

Sound
6

Again, why Wind Waker did not serve as some sort of basis, I don’t know. The inspiring ocean theme from that game is nowhere to be found here, except in a neutered, toned down form. The best music is in the intro, because it will make you remember all the awesome themes from Wind Waker. The individual islands generally have the same boring theme, and the dungeon theme is, perhaps, the worst theme in all of Zelda history.

Control
9

By the end of Phantom Hourglass, you will have scratched the hell out of your touch screen. But aside from the somewhat awkward movement controls, by and large the stylus controls are welcome and unique. Writing notes on your map and drawing lines for your boat to follow are tasks that never get old.

Gameplay
6.5

I’m chalking up the gameplay problems to Phantom Hourglass’s two big failures: the Temple of the Ocean King and all the freaking dungeon crawls. Even if you like dungeon crawling, you will hate the Temple of the Ocean King and that stupid Phantom Hourglass.

Lastability
6

Frankly, I never want to suffer through the Temple of the Ocean King again, so unless there’s some incredible unlockable feature that lets me bypass it in subsequent playthroughs, I do not see myself playing Phantom Hourglass again after I initially beat it. I’ll just play Wind Waker instead.

Final
7.5

For a game that claims to be a sequel to the greatest Zelda story ever told, Phantom Hourglass retains very few of the features that made its predecessor so memorable. Nintendo just made some bizarre choices with this game, many of which will turn off Zelda loyalists like me. It’s a good game, but it’s just far too different from traditional Zelda games to warrant the same praise as its peers.

Summary

Pros
  • It looks great, with fully 3D characters and environments
  • The opening sequence made me misty-eyed with happiness
  • The touch screen controls aren't all bad; they just take some getting used to
Cons
  • The connection to Wind Waker is incredibly weak
  • The Temple of the Ocean King
  • Touch screen controls will feel awkward to Zelda veterans
Review Page 2: Conclusion

Talkback

Bill AurionOctober 05, 2007

"Touch screen controls will feel awkward to Zelda veterans"

What!? For someone who claims to be a "Zelda loyalist," I really don't see any evidence that you really are one...And I don't see how you personally disliking something makes it a bad thing, considering I found the Temple of the Ocean King incredibly fun and hectic...

Patchkid15Patrick Barnett, Associate EditorOctober 05, 2007

I love this game so far, so i disagree with most of what you said. I like the control its fun, new, and interesting. And the Temple of the Ocean King is very enjoyable. Its a new gaming experience to the Zelda Franchise.

ZOMG!!! EPIC!!!

... I REALLY want to play this game now.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 05, 2007

Temple of the Ocean King is terrible, it is like a timed, poor version of Metal Gear Solid without any of the fun.

Ian SaneOctober 05, 2007

7.5 for a Zelda game. I'm surprised there hasn't been more "HOW DARE YOU..." posts written yet.

The more I hear about this game, even if it's negative or postive opinion, the more weary I am of playing it. Yet now I'm more interested and want to play it sooner just to see what it's like. Interesting marketing strategy there Nintendo. Using the ol' Star Wars prequel strategy to get me to pay for something I suspect I won't like just so I can form a proper opinion of it. It really sounds like sell-out non-gamer Zelda though, which is annoying. More evidence that non-gamers are Nintendo main focus I suppose though I doubt no one on either side of the arguement will change their opinion.

"And I don't see how you personally disliking something makes it a bad thing"

Well what the hell kind of review is he supposed to write? You want reviews like Game Informer's infamous Paper Mario review where they gave the game a crappy score because they figured their audience wouldn't like it? Personal opinion is the best way to go.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 05, 2007

Temple of the Ocean King is fluff added to make the game longer. Just the fact that everything resets if you die makes it quite clear that this is all it was.

This is the score NSMB should've got!

GoldenPhoenixOctober 05, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
This is the score NSMB should've got!


And it got 6 more points then Alien Syndrome should have gotten!

MaverickOctober 05, 2007

Gotta say I disagree with this one. I've only beaten the second temple so far, but I'm loving it. It's a fun and interesting new way to play, and it has the fun look and environment of Wind Waker. It may be on the easy side, but Zelda certainly isn't known for being hard (at least not the 3D versions).

I'm having a great time and waiting anxiously 'til I get off work so that I can play some more!

NinGurl69 *hugglesOctober 05, 2007

ZELDA IS DEAD.

Let's get things straight.

Wind Waker did not satisfy the people who like collecting crap, cuz the game world was a swimming pool of glue that deterred people from travelling around.

Twilight Princess did not satisfy the people who like dungeons cuz it was full of linear non-challenges, and weak non-bosses.

It really is right to say TP is the last Zelda as we know it, cuz Nintendo will no longer invest in these epic disasters -- only the kind that pulls in the casual soccer dads and lapsed Game Boy Color players.

shammackOctober 05, 2007

Quote

Using items is a chore, for example, because you must first tap "Items," then tap the item you want, then tap the item window, the use the item.


Wrong. You choose the item you want from the menu ONCE, the first time you use it, just like every other Zelda game in history (except Four Swords Adventures). You don't even have to tap the item window; you can just hold L or R, as explained to you in the game as well as in the manual.

As for the rest of the review, almost all of these complaints basically boil down to "It's not Wind Waker." Wind Waker was a great game, but not everyone wants to play the same game again. This review would be better suited to a Wind Waker fansite than a site that ostensibly covers all sorts of games with some semblance of objectivity. You've talked pretty much exclusively about the ways you don't like it as much as Wind Waker, and that's not really useful information to someone who's not as in love with it as you are. Phantom Hourglass is a different game and should be evaluated on its own merits.

The Ocean King dungeon is annoying, yes -- I can't defend having everything reset each time -- but I'm several dungeons in and I've yet to be killed by the phantoms or come close to running out of time, so it's more of a feeling of "hmm, I wouldn't have made this design choice" than anything that actually affects the gameplay significantly.

There's still plenty of stuff to do in the overworld. No, not as much as Wind Waker, but what do you expect on a handheld? There may not be heart pieces, but there are still lots of hidden treasures everywhere, on the ground and in the sea. If anything it's more satisfying now because if you see something you can't get to yet, you can mark it on your map and know to come back later when you have the right tools. You can still ignore the main quest and explore on your own. From what I've seen so far it's been pretty much the same ratio of hidden stuff to main quest that I'm used to from Zelda.

And quit harping on this "casual gamer" nonsense! Zelda games haven't been difficult since the NES days, and this one is no more "casual" than any other. A different control scheme is not a threat to your manhood. The gameplay mechanics of PH are no more of a departure from the series than any of the other handheld Zeldas. You explore an overworld, progress through dungeons by solving puzzles, and defeat bosses. If that's casual then it's always been casual, and if it's hardcore then it's still hardcore. It makes no difference, because whatever you want to call it, fun is fun. I'm having fun with Phantom Hourglass, and I'm able to do it without renouncing the things I liked about Wind Waker.

Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
This is the score NSMB should've got!


And it got 7 more points then Alien Syndrome should have gotten!


fixed

GoldenPhoenixOctober 05, 2007

Zelda: Link to the Past says differently about Zelda games not being hard since NES days. And I'm sorry but touch controls are a huge departure from the series. not to mention the fact that having your hand in front of the main gameplay screen to control link does suck you out of the world. The complaints are perfectly legitimate here, the game feels like Zelda Lite in more ways than one.

Bill AurionOctober 05, 2007

"not to mention the fact that having your hand in front of the main gameplay screen to control link does suck you out of the world."

Your hand must be huge, and this is coming from a guy who has really big hands...

"You want reviews like Game Informer's infamous Paper Mario review where they gave the game a crappy score because they figured their audience wouldn't like it?"

Um, if you look at the quote I pointed out, that's exactly what the review is doing...He's making a hilarious generalization based on his own tastes on what Zelda vets will like or not like...Basically, it's points off because it's not like the previous Zeldas...Which is something I thought you'd like, but of course you change your mind on what makes a good sequel every time it doesn't fit your constantly negative point-of-view, so meh... =|

mantidorOctober 05, 2007

urgh... did you have to mention the temple by name? warn of spoilers the next time, now I will be predisposed when I get there, you should've just said one dungeon was problematic instead of pinpointing it by name.

And no Zelda ever has had a "strong" connection with any previous iteration, not even MM, a completely direct sequel to OoT, the game barely mentions the princess and thats it, so I have no idea where this complain comes from.



MashiroOctober 05, 2007

Wow a 7.5? Really? I'll have to try this game and find out for myself . . . but danm wasn't expecting a 7.5 after all the positives I read about the game.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorOctober 05, 2007

I do have to say that I disagree with this review. I too am loving this game. I'm not too far into it, but so far, I rank it above Wind Waker and Twilight Princess both.

"I never forgot that I was holding a stylus, dragging and tapping it on the screen like a monkey to make Link move."
As opposed to, you know, pushing buttons like a monkey to make Link move?

GoldenPhoenixOctober 05, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Bill Aurion


Your hand must be huge, and this is coming from a guy who has really big hands...|


I'm sorry but hand size has nothing to do with it, you are still putting your hand in front of a small screen with a stylus. Games like SM64DS avoided this by having you control with the bottom screen and have the action on the top, it hurts your interaction with the game. Then again if you are blinded by Zelda Barebones Hourglass you wouldn't be able to see these flaws.

Ian SaneOctober 05, 2007

"Basically, it's points off because it's not like the previous Zeldas...Which is something I thought you'd like, but of course you change your mind on what makes a good sequel every time it doesn't fit your constantly negative point-of-view, so meh"

I like it when a sequel changes things up but it still has to be GOOD. I'd rather have a good play-it-safe sequel than a really different sequel that sucks. Metroid Prime is pretty different from Super Metroid but it's still really awesome. Metroid Prime Hunters is also very different but in a way where it utterly lacks what I like about Metroid in the first place. It's not a hardfast rule where change is always good or always bad.

I will admit the review has a little too much Wind Waker comparing. I honestly don't care how a Zelda game compares to a previous one. The series as a whole? Definitely. But just one game and one that I consider one of the weaker Zeldas? Doesn't seem like something important to focus on.

Oh and I agree that having your hand in the way sucks for any game but that's the problem with touchscreens in general. A mouse (or the Wii Remote I guess) is a WAY better way to do that sort of thing but obviously Nintendo can't do that with a portable.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 05, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
urgh... did you have to mention the temple by name? warn of spoilers the next time, now I will be predisposed when I get there, you should've just said one dungeon was problematic instead of pinpointing it by name.

And no Zelda ever has had a "strong" connection with any previous iteration, not even MM, a completely direct sequel to OoT, the game barely mentions the princess and thats it, so I have no idea where this complain comes from.


The problem is that this game was hyped as the sequel to the Wind Waker, and even dumbed down its mechanics to fit on the DS. It was stated to be a real sequel to Wind Waker, taking place in the same world, Majora was in an alternate reality. So once again that is an example of the game not really being a Zelda game, but no game really was a true sequel, this game on the other hand was supposed to be.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 05, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane


Oh and I agree that having your hand in the way sucks for any game but that's the problem with touchscreens in general. A mouse (or the Wii Remote I guess) is a WAY better way to do that sort of thing but obviously Nintendo can't do that with a portable.


Ian you can still avoid it though by using the touch screen as your control screen and the top screen as your main gameplay screen.

LuigiHannOctober 05, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Quote

Originally posted by: Bill Aurion


Your hand must be huge, and this is coming from a guy who has really big hands...|


I'm sorry but hand size has nothing to do with it, you are still putting your hand in front of a small screen with a stylus. Games like SM64DS avoided this by having you control with the bottom screen and have the action on the top, it hurts your interaction with the game. Then again if you are blinded by Zelda Barebones Hourglass you wouldn't be able to see these flaws.


The controls in Phantom Hourglass are much better than the controls in SM64DS.

If your hand is blocking the view, get a longer stylus. That's what I did for EBA.

DAaaMan64October 05, 2007

Loving this game so far. has a great zelda feeling that I have gotten since OoT and Majora. But I am a freak.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 05, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: LuigiHann
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Quote

Originally posted by: Bill Aurion


Your hand must be huge, and this is coming from a guy who has really big hands...|


I'm sorry but hand size has nothing to do with it, you are still putting your hand in front of a small screen with a stylus. Games like SM64DS avoided this by having you control with the bottom screen and have the action on the top, it hurts your interaction with the game. Then again if you are blinded by Zelda Barebones Hourglass you wouldn't be able to see these flaws.


The controls in Phantom Hourglass are much better than the controls in SM64DS.

If your hand is blocking the view, get a longer stylus. That's what I did for EBA.


You still have the stylus. There is no getting around that. Also I don't believe I said the controls um, controlled bad, but that it takes you out of the experience when you have a freaking stylus or hand in front of your main gameplay screen.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorOctober 05, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: LuigiHann
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Quote

Originally posted by: Bill Aurion


Your hand must be huge, and this is coming from a guy who has really big hands...|


I'm sorry but hand size has nothing to do with it, you are still putting your hand in front of a small screen with a stylus. Games like SM64DS avoided this by having you control with the bottom screen and have the action on the top, it hurts your interaction with the game. Then again if you are blinded by Zelda Barebones Hourglass you wouldn't be able to see these flaws.


The controls in Phantom Hourglass are much better than the controls in SM64DS.

If your hand is blocking the view, get a longer stylus. That's what I did for EBA.


Exactly. EBA was *way* more dependent on seeing the entire touch screen at once and I never heard anyone complain about hands blocking the field of view.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 05, 2007

Never played EBA, though I know it was a rhythm game and not an adventure game.

Bill AurionOctober 05, 2007

"Metroid Prime Hunters is also very different but in a way where it utterly lacks what I like about Metroid in the first place. It's not a hardfast rule where change is always good or always bad."

Well you definitely don't have to worry about that...Phantom Hourglass feels like nothing but a Zelda game...

MashiroOctober 05, 2007

Quote

Exactly. EBA was *way* more dependent on seeing the entire touch screen at once and I never heard anyone complain about hands blocking the field of view.


There were a FEW instances on the harder levels where my hand blocked some of the upcoming circles to touch but nothing that made me go bonkers =) <3 EBA

Oh and GP, I HIGHLY recommend you get EBA. It's still the only DS game that makes me feel DS warranted a purchase.

stedamanOctober 05, 2007

Pretty bad review imo, I disagree with alot of it.

Pretty strange to me, you felt the controls were hard, but gave a 9 and other aspects like sound and gameplay recieve 6 and 6.5.

Yes the game does have appeal to some lesser Zelda fans who havent really played the game much. But It also appeals to the Hardcore gamers who have played every Zelda ever.

Its a really good game, and deserves at least a 9 overall.

The Majora's Mask comparison is more than justified. The first ten minutes of the game basically lay out the fact that Phantom Hourglass starts off basically where Wind Waker ends. The look is the same, you're still boating around from island to island. The core gameplay is the same. But it's a MUCH different game overall. You all know that Link's Awakening is a sequel to Link to the Past, right? The gameplay differences are nary any different. It's still top-down, you still get one item on the B button, there are still fetch quests, and there are still 8 dungeons.

Even Wind Waker is a sequel to Ocarina of Time, which is references CONSTANTLY throughout the story. And, in fact, the gameplay is exactly the same. It's a little easier, and the focus is different, but the connections are omnipresent, and the gameplay is basically the same.

Phantom is a sequel to the Wind Waker, but the Wind Waker's influences are only aethetic. This really disappointed me. I'M SORRY. The story failed to sweep me up like it did in Wind Waker (and Ocarina, and Link to the Past, and even Twilight Princess), the gameplay, like GP says, is hampered by the fact that your stylus is blocking part of the screen, and must I say it again? The Temple of the Ocean King sucks!

Look, when you compare this to the GREAT Zelda games of the past--Ocarina, Link to the Past, Link's Awakening, Wind Waker, and for some of you, Twilight Princess, Phantom just does not compare.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 05, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Mashiro
Quote

Exactly. EBA was *way* more dependent on seeing the entire touch screen at once and I never heard anyone complain about hands blocking the field of view.


There were a FEW instances on the harder levels where my hand blocked some of the upcoming circles to touch but nothing that made me go bonkers =) <3 EBA

Oh and GP, I HIGHLY recommend you get EBA. It's still the only DS game that makes me feel DS warranted a purchase.


I did consider it at one time, but well, you know me I buy a TON of games and well it got lost in the crazy buying spree.

sycomonkeyOctober 05, 2007

I personally consider Twilight Princess to be the best Zelda since Ocarina of Time. This is not to say I didn't like Wind Waker, I did, but WW was both somewhat too easy, and consisted of too much fetch quests. I am definantly in the latter group you defined as being all about the dungeons. I love them.

So while I am somewhat worried about this connecting temple being a MGS rippoff (i freaking loathe stealth in Zelda games), I think I might get more out of the title than someone who is in it primarily for completionist's motives.

However, this is all moot since I hardly have time to play the games I do have, and I only have enough money to buy Guitar Hero 3 this month anyway.

I will probably get this later.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 05, 2007

Well TP and Wind Waker are my favorite 3D Zelda's. One thing I will say about PH, at least it is better than Majora's Mask face-icon-small-wink.gif

I think some of you are looking over the fact that Zach actually likes the controls in PH. He doesn't like the new style of gameplay. We'll almost certainly have one or two more reviews of this game coming soon; maybe they'll like the game more, maybe they won't. I think Zach's complaints about the game are backed up pretty well with examples and explanations.

Ian SaneOctober 05, 2007

"One thing I will say about PH, at least it is better than Majora's Mask"

Ouch. I would consider Majora's Mask to be the last classic Zelda game. Not that the Zelda games since then haven't been great but that's the last one I would consider truly exceptional. The last one that if I had to send Earth games to Mars and had limited room it would be on the ship. It's a total "love it or hate it" kind of game though. It's the anti-PH. MM is the most inaccessible and hardcore Zelda with the possible exception of the NES games, but those are inaccessible more for hardware limitations of the time than intentional design. While you might hand the first Zelda to a new gamer to start them out with the series you would never get them started on MM.

thatguyOctober 05, 2007

Majora's Mask is the last classic Zelda game. Anything after that is more than young enough to be considered contemporary.

NinGurl69 *hugglesOctober 05, 2007

In short, they're non-games.

LuigiHannOctober 05, 2007

How do people feel that this game compares to Kirby's Canvas Curse? I think that they both face similar issues (drastic departure from traditional control schemes, while trying to remain true to an established franchise)... I think that Kirby did it well, and this new Zelda does even better... so for those of you who dislike PH, did you also dislike KCC? Is PH "worse"?

Also, I'm only a couple of dungeons in, but I don't understand the Temple of the Ocean King hate. It's a text of your map-making and puzzle-solving skills, really. It's not like you have the countdown going the whole time, either, so it just forces you to plan ahead. It's different, but it's not bad different.

MaverickOctober 05, 2007

Yeah, I don't really understand the Ocean King hate either. It seems people are just having more issues with the actual IDEA of a timed dungeon, rather than with the execution.

steveyOctober 05, 2007

Burn him! Phantom Hourglass is the best Zelda game since LA!

/zelda fanboy

I disagree about to lastability, the online mode can be played over and over without it ever getting old. You should at least give it an 8.5

Flames_of_chaosLukasz Balicki, Staff AlumnusOctober 05, 2007

I don't like this review it felt like there is a lot of whining and a lot of inaccuracies and like how other readers said SPOILERS and spoilers are a big no no in reviews. I think this is a fantastic game with a few issues but this game does not deserve to be lower a 9.0 or a 8.5 . This game pushes the DS to crazy levels and its one of the most impressive games ever made on the DS, the only game that could probably challenge this game will probably be Ninja Gaiden since like Zelda its a touch screen only affair and both look graphically impressive on hardware where 3D rendering is obviously not its forte.

Can anyone hear tell me what other DS game pushed the hardware technically and control implementation wise? Also in a age even in the "next generation" where we are supposed to experience new and impressive things, and yet all we see are sequels, boring generic shooters, the color brown except in HIGH DEFINITION. I personally applaud Nintendo in taking one of their core franchises and taking a risk with it and ultimately succeeding in making it a wonderful experience thats very polished and implementing clever.

I'm sorry but I think this reviewer has dropped the bar and I think NWR's quality in reviews are greatly depreciating which is a shame since I usually think that this site has strong reviews that justifies why the game earned the score but I don't see the justification in this review.

LuigiHannOctober 05, 2007

You know what's funny? I think 7.5 is a fair rating for the game, if it's actually on a scale of one to ten... but on the six to ten scale most modern reviewers use, it seems pretty low.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 05, 2007

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How do people feel that this game compares to Kirby's Canvas Curse? I think that they both face similar issues (drastic departure from traditional control schemes, while trying to remain true to an established franchise)... I think that Kirby did it well, and this new Zelda does even better... so for those of you who dislike PH, did you also dislike KCC? Is PH "worse"?



Kirby Canvas Curse wasn't even really a Kirby game, it was Kirby slapped onto a gimmick control scheme. I don't think many people actually consider Canvas Curse to be part of the main Kirby series, kind of like Paper Mario isn't considered part of the main Mario series. Phatom Hourglass on the other hand IS supposed to be part of the main Zelda series.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 05, 2007

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Originally posted by: Lord_die_seis
I don't like this review it felt like there is a lot of whining and a lot of inaccuracies and like how other readers said SPOILERS and spoilers are a big no no in reviews. I think this is a fantastic game with a few issues but this game does not deserve to be lower a 9.0 or a 8.5 . This game pushes the DS to crazy levels and its one of the most impressive games ever made on the DS, the only game that could probably challenge this game will probably be Ninja Gaiden since like Zelda its a touch screen only affair and both look graphically impressive on hardware where 3D rendering is obviously not its forte.

Can anyone hear tell me what other DS game pushed the hardware technically and control implementation wise? Also in a age even in the "next generation" where we are supposed to experience new and impressive things, and yet all we see are sequels, boring generic shooters, the color brown except in HIGH DEFINITION. I personally applaud Nintendo in taking one of their core franchises and taking a risk with it and ultimately succeeding in making it a wonderful experience thats very polished and implementing clever.

I'm sorry but I think this reviewer has dropped the bar and I think NWR's quality in reviews are greatly depreciating which is a shame since I usually think that this site has strong reviews that justifies why the game earned the score but I don't see the justification in this review.


I thought he justified his score fine. Heck you don't do a very good justifying it, your main focus is on the visuals. Wooptie do, that is only part of the game. I have had many disagreements with NWR's reviews but I didn't feel they were low quality.

MaverickOctober 05, 2007

You're not suggesting that PH is Zelda slapped over a gimmicky interface are you?

GoldenPhoenixOctober 05, 2007

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Originally posted by: Maverick
You're not suggesting that PH is Zelda slapped over a gimmicky interface are you?


No I was referring to Kirby Canvas Curse (which I felt was the Kirby license slapped onto a "gimmick" way of playing and how it really isn't part of the main Kirby series) and how it isn't a good comparison to PH.

optimisticlimboOctober 05, 2007

I didn't feel the review actually looked at the game, rather looked at what it wasn't compared to it's predecessor. I agree with Lord_die_seis that this review doesn't live up to the standard that NWR reviews usually hold. I think a 7.5 is low, but I would rather see a re-review of the game that focuses more on the game and either removes or warns of spoilers, rather than to inflate the score beyond how Zach feels about it.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 05, 2007

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Originally posted by: optimisticlimbo
I didn't feel the review actually looked at the game, rather looked at what it wasn't compared to it's predecessor. I agree with Lord_die_seis that this review doesn't live up to the standard that NWR reviews usually hold. I think a 7.5 is low, but I would rather see a re-review of the game that focuses more on the game and either removes or warns of spoilers, rather than to inflate the score beyond how Zach feels about it.


Perhaps the game shouldn't have advertised itself as the sequel to Wind Waker, in the same setting. When a game does that it deserves scrutiny compared to its predecessor. What has made the Zelda series so unique is that each game was virtually stand alone in some way. yeah you "sequels" but they took place in a different setting or in a new time. PH tries to be Wind Waker 2 for DS, so yes the comparisons are justified. Now if it followed tradition and took place in a completely different setting, almost a stand alone tale, then I could say how comparing it to Wind Waker would be weak. As it stands now it plays like a dumbed down hand held version of Wind Waker.

optimisticlimboOctober 05, 2007

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Quote

Originally posted by: optimisticlimbo
I didn't feel the review actually looked at the game, rather looked at what it wasn't compared to it's predecessor. I agree with Lord_die_seis that this review doesn't live up to the standard that NWR reviews usually hold. I think a 7.5 is low, but I would rather see a re-review of the game that focuses more on the game and either removes or warns of spoilers, rather than to inflate the score beyond how Zach feels about it.


Perhaps the game shouldn't have advertised itself as the sequel to Wind Waker, in the same setting. When a game does that it deserves scrutiny compared to its predecessor. What has made the Zelda series so unique is that each game was virtually stand alone in some way. yeah you "sequels" but they took place in a different setting or in a new time. PH tries to be Wind Waker 2 for DS, so yes the comparisons are justified. Now if it followed tradition and took place in a completely different setting, almost a stand alone tale, then I could say how comparing it to Wind Waker would be weak. As it stands now it plays like a dumbed down hand held version of Wind Waker.


I see what you're saying. I still don't feel like the game itself was given a fair chance. There's too much, why isn't it like Wind Waker. The only response I have to it being a different setting is that they did 'set sail for far away lands.' So it's sort of a different setting.

MaverickOctober 05, 2007

Zelda direct sequels never mean much more than that it's the same Link immediately after the events of the previous game. I wasn't expecting Wind Waker 2.0, just the Wind Waker Link in a new adventure.

Flames_of_chaosLukasz Balicki, Staff AlumnusOctober 05, 2007

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Originally posted by: Maverick
Zelda direct sequels never mean much more than that it's the same Link immediately after the events of the previous game. I wasn't expecting Wind Waker 2.0, just the Wind Waker Link in a new adventure.


Thats what I expected too the only thing thats very similar to WW is the same Link and Tetra is Tetra which is really Zelda and Golden if you look at my post carefully this game pushed the system GRAPHICALLY and IMPLEMENTATION control and mechanics wise and other seemingly random DS mechanics that probably we never could of thought of such as controlling a block via the touch screen, stamping a symbol from the top screen to the bottom by closing the screen, intuitive combat without any major hick ups with the game not understanding your stylus gestures.

The game has a lot of things similar or remotely similar to Wind Waker and other zelda game that keeps it traditional and yet new refreshing implementation.

UrkelOctober 05, 2007

I strongly disagree with this review.

Remember when the DS was first revealed, and everybody brainstormed all the crazy possibilities you could do with the system? This is it. This is the game that finally does it. Nintendo took all those innovative ideas and made an entire game out of it.

I didn't like all the Wind Waker comparisons because the purpose of this game is the reinvent the Zelda experience, so it's no surprise if the game doesn't always adhere to what some would consider to be a "Zelda game".

I'm also suprised by all the Temple of the Ocean King hate. I mean, for a game that some believe is "too casual", that's easily the most "hardcore" dungeon in the game. It has the most open ended design of any of the dungeons in the game, and the whole purpose of the time limit is to get you to think about not only how to get through, but to get you to think about the best possible solution.

There were also a couple of factual innaccuracies:

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Why Nintendo would make the horrifying decision to make players dredge through the whole freaking dungeon multiple times is beyond me.


If this was true I could understand hating it, but there's a checkpoint that allows you to skip nearly half the dungeon. On top of that nearly every floor has some shortcuts that can be accessed with whatever new item you got since the last time you were there.

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If you’re seen by a guard, you usually die


If by "die" you mean "lose 30 seconds or so".

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorOctober 05, 2007

I finally broke away from the game long enough to bring it online.

Damn, this is some fun stuff. face-icon-small-smile.gif

MarioOctober 05, 2007

It's like i'm reading a review of a 2007 game in 2004

Infernal MonkeyOctober 05, 2007

kingshakeheadpu2.gif

DAaaMan64October 05, 2007

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Originally posted by: Urkel
Quote

If you’re seen by a guard, you usually die


If by "die" you mean "lose 30 seconds or so".


And if by "usually" you mean "I usually run towards at the guard." Then yes.

Yes I do find this part annoying when I have to do it a couple of times. but whatever that something this annoying in all the zelda games. Even if it is different for each player. I personally hated the water temple in OOT.

IceColdOctober 05, 2007

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Originally posted by: Kairon
This is the score NSMB should've got!
You haven't even played the game.

EDIT: And GP, for the hate on Canvas Curse, you've just gone into freefall on my respect list face-icon-small-wink.gif

Michael8983October 05, 2007

Well, as of this moment, NWR's review has the distinction of being the harshest review of the game and well below the average score of 90% (9/10) which is only slightly below the average score of Majora's Mask (92%).

As for Canvas Curse. I actually think it's one of the best Kirby games.
It perfectly blended a new and solid control method with classic Kirby level design and gameplay.
Even if you removed Kirby and all the recognizable enemy sprites and sound effects, anyone who plays Kirby games would recognize the level design in an instant. This makes it a true Kirby game IMO.

IceColdOctober 05, 2007

Thank you.

CC is still in my Top 3 DS games.

Armak88October 05, 2007

I have to say, I'm a "zelda vet" and I like this game a lot so far. I'm only past the second temple, but i've done a fair bit of exploring on the high seas and seem to be easily distracted by the online multiplayer. A lot of the negative things in this review were things that I discovered and corrected in the first 15 minutes of gameplay. I hold the stylus in my right hand, so hold the DS in my left, index finger on the L button and thumb on the d-pad. If I'm walking left, I move my hand below the screen or above the screen depending on whether i'm running left and up or left and down. The Item switching and manipulation problem is a quick fix with a little help from my left hand. I need to use the boomerang? hold L and draw your path. Want to switch items? press right (i think?) on the d-pad and the list of items will apear at the bottom of the screen, from there its a quick tap and hold L and you're switched and have the item drawn. Really these solutions are fairly simple, but now that you don't have to spend time staring at the back of your hand and fiddling with items, you can enjoy the game, it's actually quite charming.

I kind of like the timed temple, makes you think. I admit that i haven't been too far in the game yet so i guess that might change, but it sounds to me like the same as when people cried about MM only giving you three days to beat the game face-icon-small-confused.gif

PS. I love the multiplayer, and I throw down the gauntlet to anyone on this forum haha!

DasmosOctober 05, 2007

lol, lots of opinions being thrown around as fact here.

Personally I don't listen to reviews, but this one was a real beauty and by beauty I mean stinker. What a horrible review, I'm not talking about score I haven't played the game. It was just a large fluffed-out comparison. Take the game for its own merits not its shortcomings when compared to other console games.

The only review I can remember that was more pointless was Deg's review of Chibi Robo DS: "It's just like the first one. *Rambles on about pointless character details and things for rest of review*

Smash_BrotherOctober 06, 2007

Time to go over this review piece by piece...

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Originally posted by: NewsBot
It's like Wind Waker without all the stuff that made Wind Waker so awesome.
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/reviewArt.cfm?artid=14526

There are two kinds of Zelda fans in the world. There are those who appreciate the series for the exploration aspect. These people enjoy overturning the overworld, searching for Heart Pieces, secret holes, mini-games, and interesting characters. I include myself in this category, and we tend to think that Wind Waker is the greatest Zelda story ever told. And then there are the dungeon-crawlers, who find overworld shenanigans a tireless chore to the real meat and potatoes of the game: dungeons. These people seem to like Twilight Princess the best (yeah, I’m using modern examples). Personally, I couldn’t stand Twilight Princess for reasons I won’t go into here. Wind Waker, however, is in my Top 3. It’s my favorite video game in recent years. I still tool around with my original save file to this day, searching for that ever-out-of-reach final Heart Piece. Anyway, when I heard that Nintendo was crafting a sequel to Wind Waker on the DS, I was overjoyed. I was bouncing off the walls when my NWR colleagues recruited me to review the game. I received the game two days ago, and have been furiously playing it ever since. And I’ve got something to tell both the explorers and dungeon-crawlers among you: this ain’t the Zelda you know and love.


Seems fair to me. Sets the tone of which type of Zelda fan you are so you can offer a better perspective. I'm a Zelda DUNGEON fan, BTW.

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Unfortunately, the stylus control takes some serious getting-used-to for Zelda veterans. Any kind of D-pad control scheme (even one for left handers using the ABXY buttons) is absent, and while Nintendo’s goal was to make the process more streamlined and intuitive, I never forgot that I was holding a stylus, dragging and tapping it on the screen like a monkey to make Link move. Using items is a chore, for example, because you must first tap "Items," then tap the item you want, then tap the item window, the use the item. God forbid you should have to switch items in the middle of a fight. Furthermore, because I can’t draw a straight line to save my life (with a tiny stylus, anyway), my ship and boomerang routes often look more like desperate squiggles than methodic attempts. I certainly appreciate what Nintendo is trying to do, but in practice the control scheme is a little awkward. I must praise the amount of experimentation in Phantom Hourglass, though. You’ll be "stamping" your map by closing your DS, yelling at a shopkeeper, blowing out candles, and using the top screen to see what your enemy sees. It’s a shame that none of these unique applications are used more than once or twice, but there’s always something new to try, and Phantom Hourglass goes out of its way to demonstrate the unique gameplay possibilities afforded by the DS.


So the controls are different enough to be unsettling but the DS gimmick features are at least amusing.

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The much-lauded (or laughed-at) Wind Waker aesthetic is in full effect for Phantom Hourglass, albeit in a low-res sort of way. The game really is in 3D, though, and it’s good-looking 3D. Characters are just as expressive as they are in Wind Waker, and the primary colors and simplistic texturing are still there. Looks aside, however, Phantom Hourglass is an entirely different game. This is both good and bad. I was worried, frankly, that Nintendo would somehow bring Ganon back into the game, even though he’d been stabbed in the head and turned to stone by Link just before the beginning of this game. And if not Ganon, we’d get Vaati, that awkward fill-in villain whose ties to the greater series continuity have always been in question. Instead, we get a brand new storyline featuring a brand new antagonist, which is a huge plus. Sadly, though, after the game’s opening sequence, there are no plotline or character ties to Wind Waker. Phantom Hourglass lacks the mythos of Wind Waker, and it can’t decide whether it wants to be an entirely separate game or not.


Troubling. I too would have preferred more continuity for the game. Personally, I spent the entirety of TP looking for references to OoT and I got excited every time I found one. Shame there wasn't more to tie this back to WW.

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Phantom Hourglass’s gameplay flow also mimics that of Twilight Princess more so than Wind Waker. This DS game is basically a dungeon crawler, and trips to other islands exist only so you can learn about where the next dungeon is. Sure, there are some token "new islands" to discover, but their contents are rarely very exciting. I greatly enjoyed the freedom offered by Wind Waker. If I wanted to, I could forego the main quest for days and explore instead, completing my map of the Great Sea, finding neat stuff on interesting islands…you get the idea. Phantom Hourglass, however, does not meet that need. Instead, island-hopping is a practical matter. The weather conditions never change, the sea never swells, and you’ll rarely see another ship anywhere. I’m sure this is due to hardware limitations, but I really miss that aspect of Wind Waker.


Exploration got the axe, but you already warned us that this is the reason you enjoy Zelda games so this one would naturally lose points in that regard. If it's nothing but dungeons, then it has my interest piqued.

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Even Twilight Princess fans, though, will be groaning in agony about the Temple of the Sea King, a horrendous chore of a dungeon which I’ll have to use some apt comparisons to illustrate. Remember how, in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, you were often asked to travel to Dark Aether? It had an acidic atmosphere that constantly drained your health, and to survive, you had to travel between safe zones, where your health would slowly go back up. But Dark Aether was never fun (until much later in the game). Well, imagine a Zelda dungeon like that, with typical dungeon puzzles. Now add invincible guards who wander the halls and have a Metal Gear Solid-like vision cone. If you’re seen by a guard, you usually die (unless you can get to a safe zone). Also, and this is the kicker, there’s a timer. Yes, a timer. When that timer runs out, your health begins to plummet. Oh, and I forgot to mention that you’ll have to traverse this dungeon several different times. In fact, each time you complete an overworld dungeon, you will have to go back to the Temple of the Ocean King and start from the very beginning, with all the puzzles reset, and a little bit more time in the hourglass (this gets a tad less severe later in the game), and go farther into the dungeon. After every overworld boss, you gain access to a new basement level, the theory being that you’ll eventually confront the game’s final boss. The fact that you don’t get to start from where you left off is mind-boggling. Why Nintendo would make the horrifying decision to make players dredge through the whole freaking dungeon multiple times is beyond me. Is artificially lengthening the game their goal? Why not just put more islands on the map, or resort to that tired old light/dark world mechanic? I should mention here that Nintendo stripped a lot of Zelda mainstays from the game, including Heart Pieces, the dungeon compass, and wallet upgrades. These are all welcome changes (except the Heart Pieces), but the Temple of the Ocean King is beyond ridiculous.


Ouch, sounds like they threw in a god-awful time sink. Thanks for the warning.

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I guess I should mention the two-player Wi-Fi game. No, it’s not Four Swords. Instead, it’s a mini-game that mimics the Temple of the Ocean King! Need I go on? One player is Link, who tries to collect Force Gems and sneak past the other player, who is a Phantom (one of the giant invincible guards). The multiplayer does have the advantage of being single-card downloadable, but other DS games have much stronger Wi-Fi outings, chief among them Metroid Prime: Hunters and Mario Kart DS. By comparison to those meaty offerings, the multiplayer component of Phantom Hourglass seems like a tagged-on feature.


It looked rather basic from the videos I'd seen of it. Shame to hear it's lacking.

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It’s obvious that Nintendo has tailored Phantom Hourglass to a more casual, less Zelda-familiar audience. From the touch screen controls to the lack of connection with Wind Waker and the strip-mining of traditional Zelda items, you need not be a Zelda vet to enjoy Phantom Hourglass. At the same time, though, it becomes difficult to fully enjoy Phantom Hourglass if you are a Zelda vet. The lack of even an option for D-pad control tells me that Nintendo did not have their Zelda fan base in mind when they were creating Phantom Hourglass. And that’s okay, I guess. It’s still a decent game, but it’s also a game apart from the rest of the series. It just feels different, and I think it demonstrates that Nintendo is reluctant to sail into the murky waters beyond Wind Waker. The end of that game left a lot of possibilities open, but the path taken by Phantom Hourglass is, in all honesty, lame. Try not to think of Phantom Hourglass as a direct sequel to Wind Waker, and perhaps instead as a sort of pseudo-sequel, like Majora’s Mask was to Ocarina of Time. Then you might enjoy it more. Me? I am just sad to see so many great characters and gameplay mechanics left at the docks while Nintendo sailed into more casual waters.


This is indeed a shame to hear, but I fear this is the direction Nintendo has decided to take and that unfortunately includes some of its flagship franchises.

I thought this review was just fine: it gave me a good idea of whether or not I'd enjoy this game and what to expect. I honestly don't understand why people are complaining about it.

IceColdOctober 06, 2007

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The only review I can remember that was more pointless was Deg's review of Chibi Robo DS: "It's just like the first one.
Wasn't that Custom Robo?

Michael8983October 06, 2007

I think the timed dungeon and the new controls will grow on people over time.
I mean a lot of people didn't take to Majora's Mask right away with its time limit and non-traditional storyline. Then there was the Wind Waker thing that needs no explanation. Also the Wii-mote controls in Twilight Princess. All three of these Zelda games featured deviations that were unsettling at first but MOST people eventually got used to them.
There are still a few people that think Majora's Mask was an unnessesary spin-off, hate cel-shaded Link, and prefer the Gamecube version of TP. But these people are the minority as far as I can tell.

The problem with writing reviews for newly released games is that you're pressured to finish them as fast as possible to get your review out in a respectable amount of time. That can taint the experience, especially with a unique title like this. The reviewer may blast through the title so fast, not giving himself time to become comfortable with the controls and enjoy the experience. Allowing moderately frustrating moments to become intolerable. Not giving the proper time to allow whatever pre-judgments he made on the game to fade.

SvevanEvan Burchfield, Staff AlumnusOctober 06, 2007

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Originally posted by: Michael8983
I think the timed dungeon and the new controls will grow on people over time.
I mean a lot of people didn't take to Majora's Mask right away with its time limit and non-traditional storyline. Then there was the Wind Waker thing that needs no explanation. Also the Wii-mote controls in Twilight Princess. All three of these Zelda games featured deviations that were unsettling at first but MOST people eventually got used to them.
There are still a few people that think Majora's Mask was an unnessesary spin-off, hate cel-shaded Link, and prefer the Gamecube version of TP. But these people are the minority as far as I can tell.

The problem with writing reviews for newly released games is that you're pressured to finish them as fast as possible to get your review out in a respectable amount of time. That can taint the experience, especially with a unique title like this. The reviewer may blast through the title so fast, not giving himself time to become comfortable with the controls and enjoy the experience. Allowing moderately frustrating moments to become intolerable. Not giving the proper time to allow whatever pre-judgments he made on the game to fade.

This could happen, but most of our reviews go out after a week of playing, even reviews of new games or pre-release reviews (there have been exceptions for short games or Jonny w/ Metroid). Some of our forum members can blast through a game faster than we can with a deadline. Fast playing time is never so fast we don't take necessary time to learn things.

Where I agree with you, Michael, is in the very nature of on-the-day reviews; I almost never form an opinion about a game until its over, and then it takes some time. Same too with movies; if I think a movie is great, I try to watch it twice before proclaiming it as such. I think the brain needs more time processing after the fact, and writing a review (and going through our strict editing process) can sometimes provide that necessary time.

ShanDOctober 06, 2007

How to change items in the heat of battle!

Right D-pad or A button
Tap item in bottom ribbon of the screen
Hold L or R
Use item!!

optimisticlimboOctober 06, 2007

I want to comment on the 'time sink' dungeon.
I played through it what is technically your third time last night. Afterwards, my cartridge got eject through stupidity and I had to go back and do it again. However, because of the short cuts offered by items, I was able to only lose 4 minutes from the amount I had. This is what this dungeon is designed for. Keep doing it faster with new items and use the map! You can take any notes, including shortcuts you THINK will be useful in the future.
So from the experience, I agree the hate towards it is like the hate of doing a dungeon in '3 days' in Majora's Mask. If you failed, you had to do again, but now you get a map, in game, to make it faster.
In conclusion, Phantom Hourglass is Wind Waker's Majora. Now where's my TP's Majora?

WanderingOctober 06, 2007

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In conclusion, Phantom Hourglass is Wind Waker's Majora. Now where's my TP's Majora?

Since TP is a glorified remake of OOT, Majora is TP's Majora.

MaverickOctober 06, 2007

Aren't ALL main-quest Zelda games basically remakes of the original NES Zelda? I mean, they're sequels and have different story-lines for the most part, with different game mechanics and plot devices (light-world/dark world, time travel, wind waking, transforming into a wolf...), but they're basically the re-telling of Link destroying Ganon and saving the Princess. Even if they are different Links and Zeldas on the timeline, it's still basically the same game again and again. Somehow they all still manage to be excellent, however.

I just don't think it's fair to pick on TP for that. face-icon-small-wink.gif

theJKAOctober 06, 2007

To base the value of gameplay on one dungeon and the fact that you don't like dungeon crawling. the review was written with your dislike in mind, as you can't stop talking about it. Reviews should be about how much the average gamer would enjoy it, not your personal preferences. And as a sequel to Wind Waker, the game should stand on its own merits rather than be judged as such, as there are a variety of factors to consider (different system, less power and memory, control scheme etc). Overall this review was not very fair, biased, and not to the standards of NWR's reviews.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 07, 2007

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Originally posted by: theJKA
To base the value of gameplay on one dungeon and the fact that you don't like dungeon crawling. the review was written with your dislike in mind, as you can't stop talking about it. Reviews should be about how much the average gamer would enjoy it, not your personal preferences. And as a sequel to Wind Waker, the game should stand on its own merits rather than be judged as such, as there are a variety of factors to consider (different system, less power and memory, control scheme etc). Overall this review was not very fair, biased, and not to the standards of NWR's reviews.


I love dungeon crawling, and I hated the one dungeon too, so take that! Also it is stupid to do a review on whether the average gamer will enjoy it, because that is how you get Game informer Paper Mario reviews!

BloodworthDaniel Bloodworth, Staff AlumnusOctober 07, 2007

I just got through with the third dungeon (not counting Ocean King) and I'm having a blast.

The controls are phenomenal (with the exception of rolling into trees). Drawing on maps is brilliant, and its done in a variety of ways. I am getting plenty distracted by exploring the ocean, finding ship parts, playing mini-games etc. Pulling up treasure off the ocean floor is somehow less tedious even though it's not nearly as easy to do.

The only complaint I can really agree with right now is that I don't like having to repeat floors in the main temple, but I don't have much of a problem with the phantom gameplay. They're easy enough to avoid and I haven't gotten close to running out of time.

I felt the first two dungeons were kind of light, but the third one had me scratching my head a lot, and it really doesn't feel dumbed-down or casual. Oh and the boss fight there once and for all debunks the myth that the DS can't do 3D on both screens.

To heart pieces, I say GOOD RIDDANCE. I've actually died like five times, and I only died once in all of Twilight Princess. Not sure I ever died in Wind Waker.

What I really don't understand are the complaints about a lack of memorable characters- Jolene and her "Mermaid" sister, Oshus, Linebeck, The Wayfarer's family, the hero that's dressed like Link and rides the Prince of Red Lions -I really don't see how these characters are less memorable than those in Wind Waker except for the fact that the animation and amount of vocalization is limited by the technology.

I was planning to save Phantom Hourglass for my vacation in two weeks (plane ride = lots of time). With all the hubbub, though, I'm tempted to buy the game now just to see who I agree with....

One bad thing about being content and complacent and not needing to play a game as soon as it comes out is that I miss out on a lot of the furor about the game... I can't wait for my copy to arrive in the mail so that I can discover the truth about this game.

MaverickOctober 07, 2007

Well one thing is for sure, I definitely suck at the arrow shooting mini-game. face-icon-small-frown.gif I spent well over 1000 rupees to beat it (2000 points), but at least I had fun while I was losing horribly!

The more I play it more I can't fathom somebody disliking the game, it's a blast through and through.

BloodworthDaniel Bloodworth, Staff AlumnusOctober 07, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Maverick
Well one thing is for sure, I definitely suck at the arrow shooting mini-game. face-icon-small-frown.gif I spent well over 1000 rupees to beat it (2000 points), but at least I had fun while I was losing horribly!


I did the same thing. That game forces you to perfect your skills. I don't think it's possible to get 2000 if you make even one mistake. Cool that you get so many ship parts from it though.


DasmosOctober 07, 2007

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Originally posted by: IceCold
Quote

The only review I can remember that was more pointless was Deg's review of Chibi Robo DS: "It's just like the first one.
Wasn't that Custom Robo?
Yeah you're right, my mistake.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorOctober 07, 2007

How come there's so many NWR'ers who have this game, yet stevey is the only one (besides me) to have posted their friend code?!?

KlapauciusOctober 07, 2007

Well written review ^_^


Wind Waker is also one of my favourite games ever. I can spend hours just sailing around, exploring islands, fighting moblins, collecting things...
Twilight Princess doesn't have this replayability, I think. I can't dive back into it like I can WindW Waker. Though the Temple of Time in TP is one of my favourite temples in any Zelda game.

mantidorOctober 07, 2007

another thing, isnt the argument of being dumbed down for casuals contradicting with a supposedly difficult dungeon? that simply doesn't make any sense to me, at all.

LuigiHannOctober 07, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
another thing, isnt the argument of being dumbed down for casuals contradicting with a supposedly difficult dungeon? that simply doesn't make any sense to me, at all.


I think they're calling that dungeon tedious, rather than challenging. Not entirely contradictory.

MaverickOctober 07, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Bloodworth
Quote

Originally posted by: Maverick
Well one thing is for sure, I definitely suck at the arrow shooting mini-game. face-icon-small-frown.gif I spent well over 1000 rupees to beat it (2000 points), but at least I had fun while I was losing horribly!


I did the same thing. That game forces you to perfect your skills. I don't think it's possible to get 2000 if you make even one mistake. Cool that you get so many ship parts from it though.


Yeah, I did get some neat ship parts from all of my trying. Even if you do hit every target, you still won't always get 2000, you have to hit every target as fast as you can so that you get enough targets to reach the point in the first place, PLUS making sure you hit all of them. I think that's the most trouble I've ever had with a shooting game in Zelda.

mantidorOctober 07, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: LuigiHann
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
another thing, isnt the argument of being dumbed down for casuals contradicting with a supposedly difficult dungeon? that simply doesn't make any sense to me, at all.


I think they're calling that dungeon tedious, rather than challenging. Not entirely contradictory.


oh I see, it isn't that different actually, tediousness is a staple of "hardcore" gaming, just look at any turn based j-rpg to start :P. Brain training, just to name a "non-game", is in the exact opposite of the spectrum.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 07, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
Quote

Originally posted by: LuigiHann
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
another thing, isnt the argument of being dumbed down for casuals contradicting with a supposedly difficult dungeon? that simply doesn't make any sense to me, at all.


I think they're calling that dungeon tedious, rather than challenging. Not entirely contradictory.


oh I see, it isn't that different actually, tediousness is a staple of "hardcore" gaming, just look at any turn based j-rpg to start :P. Brain training, just to name a "non-game", is in the exact opposite of the spectrum.


Actually tedious is not a hardcore staple, alot of the "casual" or "kid" games have tedious collecting or tedious gameplay that doesn't hold your interest (Button mashing for one), so you are quite mistaken. So unless you are going to classify the myriad of kid games or casual games as hardcore because many can be super tedious, I believe you better rethink that statement. Also I am getting tired of hearing that the reviewers didn't like the game, he gave it a 7.5/10 that means he did like it, but like me was let down by it. I would have much rather had a brand new adventure in a brand new crafted world (or even yet another imagined hyrule) in the vain of Link to the Past, or even Link's Awakening.

MarioOctober 07, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: LuigiHann
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
another thing, isnt the argument of being dumbed down for casuals contradicting with a supposedly difficult dungeon? that simply doesn't make any sense to me, at all.


I think they're calling that dungeon tedious, rather than challenging. Not entirely contradictory.

Just like every dungeon ever in a Zelda game. Time to chuck them out

WanderingOctober 07, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Mario
Quote

Originally posted by: LuigiHann
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
another thing, isnt the argument of being dumbed down for casuals contradicting with a supposedly difficult dungeon? that simply doesn't make any sense to me, at all.


I think they're calling that dungeon tedious, rather than challenging. Not entirely contradictory.

Just like every dungeon ever in a Zelda game. Time to chuck them out

I agree. I'm not a big fan of dungeons.

Gee.. can you imagine that? A game full of 20+ MINI-Dungeons? *DROOL*

thatguyOctober 07, 2007

FSA

mantidorOctober 07, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
Quote

Originally posted by: LuigiHann
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
another thing, isnt the argument of being dumbed down for casuals contradicting with a supposedly difficult dungeon? that simply doesn't make any sense to me, at all.


I think they're calling that dungeon tedious, rather than challenging. Not entirely contradictory.


oh I see, it isn't that different actually, tediousness is a staple of "hardcore" gaming, just look at any turn based j-rpg to start :P. Brain training, just to name a "non-game", is in the exact opposite of the spectrum.


Actually tedious is not a hardcore staple, alot of the "casual" or "kid" games have tedious collecting or tedious gameplay that doesn't hold your interest (Button mashing for one), so you are quite mistaken.


well, name examples please, I can't think of any.




MashiroOctober 07, 2007

A collecting game that was tedious but not hardcore?

. . .

POKEMON Gotta catch 'em all!

I also felt Yoshi's Story was tedious. As was Banjo Kazzoie.

MarioOctober 07, 2007

Did you just say Pokemon wasn't hardcore?

I don't think anyone would argue that tediousness is a virtue of either casual or hardcore games. To say Japanese RPGs are tedious is a stereotype -- the really good ones have various means of keeping you interested in the battles, and therefore they avoid being tedious. Also, RPGs in general have a magical way of turning otherwise tedious tasks into satisfying tasks by constantly rewarding your characters with experience points and new abilities. Compare this to fighting off all the little monsters in a Zelda game, which reappear almost immediately and do not help your character to grow in any way. That kind of stuff I find extremely tedious. I wish Zelda games didn't have monsters out in the field; I always end up running away from them anyway because it's not worth my time to kill them.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 07, 2007

Fine I'll name one right off the bat, I just played the demo, and that is Looney Tunes Acme Assault. The game is so tedious, you destroy robot after robot, there is nothing creative nor appealing about it and it was torture to finish. Drawn to Life is another, it is a bare bones platformer that was made for younger gamers, and its collecting isn't hard but it is tedious. Heck if you are playing a game you don't like or isn't at your age level, it will more than likely get tedious quite quickly, doesn't make it a hardcore game. What people are saying about Zelda: PH is that the one dungeon isn't fun and is more of a chore then anything, it isn't creative, and it drags down the rest of the game. Repetition is yet another example of soemthing that can get tedious, heck that is the trouble of most beat em up games, they just get boring.

thatguyOctober 07, 2007

Drawn to Life's last world is alright, but getting to it is oh-so-painful.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 07, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
I don't think anyone would argue that tediousness is a virtue of either casual or hardcore games.


Tell that to Mantidor. BTW I agree 100%, tedious things are basically boring things in the game you don't find fun and have to trudge through. It can be in ANYTHING.

MashiroOctober 08, 2007

Quote

Tell that to Mashiro.


Wait. what? Why tell me? I just listed some casual games that had tedious qualities to them. I didn't say it belonged to one or the other.

Quote

Did you just say Pokemon wasn't hardcore?


Collecting pokemon isn't the most hardcore of things, it's tedious work. I know many people who can be hardcore with pokemon (I tried to be myself but that got old fast lol).

trip1eXOctober 08, 2007

well i'm enjoying the game so far. The boomerang mechanic works very well and I don't agree that Zelda vets will have a hard time with the controls. They are pretty easy to get into. Yes the stylus has disadvantages, but it also has advantages.

So far a few nitpicks. I really like WindWaker too and I miss steering the ship. Also I miss swimming in the water and walking up onto the islands. I guess I imagined I'd be able to do some more of that.

I've got quite a ways to go, but so far I'd give it an 8.5 or so. I'm starting to tire of the ZElda formula a bit so not sure it would get a 9 from me at this point.

IceColdOctober 08, 2007

I've said it before, but dungeons are my favourite parts of Zelda games by far. I'm not big on the whole exploring thing, unless it's a Mario game (though in those the exploring is minimal).

MaverickOctober 08, 2007

I LOVE the dungeons in Zelda. One of my largest complaints with Wind Waker was the large amount of side quests, and minimal amount of dungeons. I like a good balance though, with plenty of extra stuff to do and items to get between the dungeons as well. I wouldn't want to just run from dungeon to dungeon.

MarioOctober 08, 2007

Quote

Compare this to fighting off all the little monsters in a Zelda game, which reappear almost immediately and do not help your character to grow in any way. That kind of stuff I find extremely tedious. I wish Zelda games didn't have monsters out in the field; I always end up running away from them anyway because it's not worth my time to kill them.

So, basically an RPG would be the same thing, except you're being FORCED to do the thing you dont feel like doing. How is that better?

KDR_11kOctober 08, 2007

You know, this review put me on the edge of not buying. Some people say the phantoms aren't an issue while I see noone in support of the review's position (GP doesn't count). Can I take that to mean the stealth sections are insignificant?

optimisticlimboOctober 08, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
You know, this review put me on the edge of not buying. Some people say the phantoms aren't an issue while I see noone in support of the review's position (GP doesn't count). Can I take that to mean the stealth sections are insignificant?


The thing is, there's no real stealth to be seen. The phantoms can be run from, and there are always safe zones to run to. I've actually used strategy of timing where the phantoms are to run past them. The risk of being caught isn't so great that you live in fear of them.

planetidiotOctober 08, 2007

I love the exploration elements of zelda, but couldn't stand wind waker. Someone needs to tell Nintendo sailing around on a boat isn't fun unless maybe you are actually on the boat and like sailing. I'm already irritated that there's boat nonsense in this game, but admittedly it's less annoying than wind waker. Plus I take the train into work every day now so I really don't have anything better to do that watch a stupid boat.

I think the control is fine, didn't take any time at all to get used to it. I especially love the boomerang, which is awesome for shredding grass and finding money and hearts. Another plus for the game is unlike others in the series, you don't fill up your rupies in the first 30 seconds of the game. And *gasp* there's actually expensive things to buy with them! Unlike wind waker.

Nintendo still hasn't released the reigns and you are hand-held through the game, but I guess getting the freedom of Zelda 1 & 2 again just won't ever happen. It's annoying to the point that as you figure something out, the stupid fairy pipes in and explains what you have to do.

That aside, it hasn't infuriated me like wind waker did in the first few days and I'm enjoying it so far.


Quote

Originally posted by: optimisticlimbo


The thing is, there's no real stealth to be seen. The phantoms can be run from, and there are always safe zones to run to. I've actually used strategy of timing where the phantoms are to run past them. The risk of being caught isn't so great that you live in fear of them.


I'm worried that it will get worse later, but so far I agree with you. They haven't been any real threat so far. Just run, they're slow.

stedamanOctober 08, 2007

Ok having played this game now for a worthy lengthy time...I enforce my opinion that this game is one of the best on the ds.

Yes, its open to players who have never experienced Zelda before, but its still fantastic for the hardcore Zelda players. The whole use of the stylus
in which you use in in numerous ways is fantastic. The movement has been nailed while using the stylus, it works really well.

The game may be a tad easy, but its still pleasuable to me. I love the game not being too difficult as you can actually enjoy the game for its fantastic gameplay without getting frustrated enough to quit.

The sound is fantastic...the use of the mic and the whole music of the game fits perfectly, its brillant...sorry a 6 you say for sound? absolute tosh!
At least a 9. The gameplay is also fantastic with an arrange of intelllectual uses for the stylus which I wont disclose for spoliers. Again how can teh gameplay warrent a 6.5....i'm stunned...10 for me.

It also lasts about as long as most game do....and if you take your time and actually not power through the game and enjoy it for its creativeness and greatness..then it will last along time. On top of that, it has wifi with a simplistic game which is actually extremely good. You can have alot of fun with the game online through wifi...which carries the lastability further.

Again the score for lastability was far too low..and so I give it a 9.

Seriously I hope this review didnt put anyone off buying the game..it's definatly worth the purchase. I would say it's one of the best DS games out there.Most reviews give this a 9+...including gonintendo which gave a 9.8!

I would say a 9.6. So anyone in doubt..don't be!

face-icon-small-smile.gif


decoymanOctober 08, 2007

Here are some of my thoughts on the game, in a handy "Strengths/Weaknesses" list format!

Strengths...

1. Stylus control (when employing the shortcuts) is streamlined and AWESOME. When I first started, I had an issue with my hand being in the way sometimes, but I've gotten over that since.

2. Graphics are similarly AWESOME. This game is pushin' the polys hard (both screens, as someone said), and the same style which won (nearly) everyone over in WW is back in full force here. Excellent art direction and technical execution.

3. Memorable characters. I don't get the complaint about this. I can list off over a dozen totally memorable and hilarious characters. Don't make me do it, because I will!

4. HARDCORE GAMEPLAY OPPORTUNITIES ABOUND. Yes, I'm talking about the Ocean King Temple. This is set up for you to do speed runs, see how fast you can get through, what shortcuts you can find, etc. I'm nearly through the game just got the Phantom Blade or whatever it's called, and I've had a great time trying to improve my time. Plus, there is a HUGELY USEFUL shortcut which allows you to skip like half of the dungeon once you're fast enough, while retaining your time up to that point. If anything, Zach, maybe the problem is that you're not hardcore enough for this game. face-icon-small-shocked.gifface-icon-small-wink.gif Besides the OKT (as I will now refer to it), you've got sidequests out the wazoo. There are mini games to play, characters to unite, romantic intrigue to thwart(?!), force gems to find, ship parts to find and customize with, loot to salvage, timed mazes to run, fish to catch... need I go on? With all that, I don't miss heart container pieces one teensy bit. It IS true that this game is made easier with the stylus, but that doesn't mean it's not hardcore. In fact, despite it being made easier, I've died more times in this game than in either TP or WW.

5. Sailing is fun and breaks up the land-based action. I wish the weather/day system from WW was still intact here, but it's a minor thing really. There's a ton to do on the water, and you're rewarded for it with useful items too.

6. This Zelda tries a lot of different things, from sailing to powering up your fairy companions to stylus controls, to new collectibles (force gems, ship parts, ...), to story details no Ganon!, lots of humor (maybe the most in a Zelda game? I've laughed out loud more than once – like when Link goes to hold up the Phantom blade and Oshus just snatches it away as the typical Zelda "pick-up" music starts to play, and Link is just standing there in the pose, looking confusedface-icon-small-laugh.gif to new uses for familiar items grappling hook tight-rope walking and catapulting, anyone? how 'bout the hammer? to a temporary dungeon companion who can -gasp- attack and fend for himself??? to a new sort of multiplayer. All of these changes – ALL OF THEM – are great and welcome, and serve to freshen the Zelda gameplay/formula.

7. Engaging, creative, and FUN boss battles. But this is a given for a Zelda game. I was recently really impressed with the Ancient Stone Soldier boss battle.

Weaknesses/Quibbles:

1. The compositions are, for the most part, top-notch. However, I've run into more than a few occasions where the songs loop way too quickly/often. I'm thinking, running around outside when there are enemies about, and some dungeons. I wish there was a larger variety of tunes, because what's there is really good.

2. Missed opportunities with regard to the storyline continuity. Like someone else said, this a pretty unique in that it's a direct sequel. However, it would have been immensely cool to see more than just passing references (the intro is great and the Prince of Red Lions, "Want to be my apprentice? Good, your title is 'Half a Hero'" guy is pretty funny). Why not make the pirates show up again somewhere along the line? Even that small thread of continuity would have been welcome.

So! As you might guess, I disagree with many points of the review and its final score. However, I also disagree with the idea of writing a review with the idea of "what the average gamer will think of it." A review is a personal take on the game, and this was Zach's. I hope NWR gets a few more reviews of this game up soon to give a (hopefully) different viewpoint on it. It's unfortunate that Zach didn't have as good a time as many of us are having with it.

For me, I can see me finishing it, and then going back to play it again one day, maybe one day soon. The only other Zelda game I've done that with is WW. I guess it's fitting that the next game I might do that with is WW's sequel.

mantidorOctober 08, 2007

As Nintendo fans we have to finally come to terms with the fact that Nintendo will NEVER give the smallest ammount of care for continuity in their games, be it mario, zelda or metroid.

LuigiHannOctober 08, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
As Nintendo fans we have to finally come to terms with the fact that Nintendo will NEVER give the smallest ammount of care for continuity in their games, be it mario, zelda or metroid.


That's not true. Nintendo always gives the smallest amount of care for continuity face-icon-small-wink.gif

CalibanOctober 08, 2007

From what I've played so far this game is great, lots of fun, albeit I'm stuck on a puzzle now I'm sure I will find my way through as usual.

Although I just had 2 Battle matches with UncleBob and that too was fun, I was quite unexpectant at how fun the multiplayer mode might turn out to be but I'm glad it is fun, however it would have been cool if they would have included the option to play 4 (1 Link per player) Vs. 4 (1 Shadow Guard per player), unless I'm mistaken of course, then we can only Battle 1 Vs. 1 right?

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorOctober 08, 2007

Unfortunately, it's only 1 on 1 battles...

I *love* the battle mode. It's almost as fun as Four Swords on the GBA was. I still wish we had a version of that online...

GoldenPhoenixOctober 08, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
You know, this review put me on the edge of not buying. Some people say the phantoms aren't an issue while I see noone in support of the review's position (GP doesn't count). Can I take that to mean the stealth sections are insignificant?


Ok that is stupid, so I don't count, even though I've been a Zelda fan for a long time? The stealth sections are tedious, pointless, and I'm sorry timed events are not hardcore either as was suggested by another poster. Timed Metal Gear Shallow can stay far away from Zelda, complete with vision cones. Another problem with the dungeon is that you have to open the same doors, get the same keys and it gets longer, so you are repeating the same thing over, and over and over again, heck if you have read any of the other reviews on the game, most comment about the tediousness of it.

It really does gnaw at me that whenever someone criticizes an aspect of the game, whether it be the ridiculous timed dungeon, that they aren't "hardcore" enough to appreciate it. That is perhaps the most over used insult that really has no meaning besides trying to diffuse an argument.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 08, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Mashiro
Quote

Tell that to Mashiro.


Wait. what? Why tell me? I just listed some casual games that had tedious qualities to them. I didn't say it belonged to one or the other.


Lol, I meant Mantidor. Sorry to insult you like that!

I recommend anyone on the fence to wait for Kairon's definitive review of the game before making any hasty decisions that they may regret in the future!

CalibanOctober 08, 2007

Yeah my thoughts exactly on the Four Swords type of play being online...that's it, Nintendo has no choice but to do Four Swords V2.0 for the Wii (or DS) and it will have an online co-op (4 players) and versus ( 4 Links Vs. 4 Links) mode..."snap out of it Caliban *smack* ", I wonder why we still follow Nintendo the way we do if for nothing but slight dissapointments.

Because we couldn't survive Sega fandom.

MaverickOctober 08, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
I recommend anyone on the fence to wait for Kairon's definitive review of the game before making any hasty decisions that they may regret in the future!


Like not buying it? face-icon-small-wink.gif

CalibanOctober 08, 2007

Kairon, I read your post many times before I understood what you meant; but that is so true, what you said, it's like SEGA lost all their talented employees and now all we get is sh!t or nothing unless it's developed by a 3rd party for the SEGA brand, hopefully that won't happen to Nintendo, at least in the coming 20 years.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 08, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Caliban
Kairon, I read your post many times before I understood what you meant; but that is so true, what you said, it's like SEGA lost all their talented employees and now all we get is sh!t or nothing unless it's developed by a 3rd party for the SEGA brand, hopefully that won't happen to Nintendo, at least in the coming 20 years.


Wait what is a good 3rd party developed game published by Sega?

CalibanOctober 08, 2007

Sonic Rush.

Ian SaneOctober 08, 2007

Being the Thanksgiving holiday in Canada I was bored and decided to get this game. It's really good and like five hours have gone by like nothing. There's just one problem. The controls SUCK. I don't mind using the stylus for the boomerang and marking on the map. Stuff like that is fun. But MOVING? Why the hell did they think that moving with the stylus was a good idea?

Easy stuff like dodging rows of fire is a big pain in the butt now. Swinging your sword is guess work. Want to walk past the bomb flower? Sorry you'll swing your sword into it causing it to explode in your face. Want to swing your sword? Well maybe you'll walk instead. Who knows?

The d-pad or buttons are right there and SHOULD have been used as movement. Then if they assigned R and L to your sword the game would control much better and allow for both righties and lefties. But instead what I would consider an A game is only a B because the controls suck. Hidden in here is a good Zelda game with clever use of the touchscreen but because Nintendo has to base their control setups on forcing their new ideas on us, instead of using what's best for each scenario, they blew it. Figures. Tinker with the controls a bit and this does for the touchscreen what Metroid Prime 3 does for the remote. But the execution they chose comes across as g!mmicky which is a shame because there are some really cool ideas in here.

Imagine if Nintendo forced Retro is only use the remote and not the nunchuk and you'll get an idea of what Phantom Hourglass plays like. If you like Zelda you'll probably like it but you have to be willing to deal with the controls. It's a bizarre combination of clever touchscreen usage and forced touchscreen usage. Best and worst use of the touchscreen ever.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 08, 2007

Ian what do you think of the timed dungeon? BTW I have to disagree, while I do feel the touch controls take me out of the game a bit, I still think they are quite good except for rolling. Really I think it would have been perfect if they used a combination of traditional controls with the innovative touch moves such as the notes and boomerang.

WanderingOctober 08, 2007

That is a recipe for hand cramps.

stedamanOctober 08, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Being the Thanksgiving holiday in Canada I was bored and decided to get this game. It's really good and like five hours have gone by like nothing. There's just one problem. The controls SUCK. I don't mind using the stylus for the boomerang and marking on the map. Stuff like that is fun. But MOVING? Why the hell did they think that moving with the stylus was a good idea?

Easy stuff like dodging rows of fire is a big pain in the butt now. Swinging your sword is guess work. Want to walk past the bomb flower? Sorry you'll swing your sword into it causing it to explode in your face. Want to swing your sword? Well maybe you'll walk instead. Who knows?

The d-pad or buttons are right there and SHOULD have been used as movement. Then if they assigned R and L to your sword the game would control much better and allow for both righties and lefties. But instead what I would consider an A game is only a B because the controls suck. Hidden in here is a good Zelda game with clever use of the touchscreen but because Nintendo has to base their control setups on forcing their new ideas on us, instead of using what's best for each scenario, they blew it. Figures. Tinker with the controls a bit and this does for the touchscreen what Metroid Prime 3 does for the remote. But the execution they chose comes across as g!mmicky which is a shame because there are some really cool ideas in here.

Imagine if Nintendo forced Retro is only use the remote and not the nunchuk and you'll get an idea of what Phantom Hourglass plays like. If you like Zelda you'll probably like it but you have to be willing to deal with the controls. It's a bizarre combination of clever touchscreen usage and forced touchscreen usage. Best and worst use of the touchscreen ever.



I have no problem with the controls.....the whole use of the stylus is great...and creates a great experience. It's not really that difficult to dodge rows of fire is it?
You hit bombs by swinging your sword? That's strange because you need to circle the stylus to swing your sword which you cannot mistakenly do...

If your accidently hitting the bombs by pointing on them..then that's carelessness.

"Swinging your sword is guess work. Want to walk past the bomb flower? Sorry you'll swing your sword into it causing it to explode in your face." ........what??????????? , maybe its because you try to swing your sword in the bomb field to hit those mice things..not a good idea face-icon-small-wink.gif

"Want to swing your sword? Well maybe you'll walk instead. Who knows?"
Sounds like your trying to hit stuff from too far away and also missing the target with the stylus.
I can safely say the controls do not suck..and they have obviously speant alot of time making sure they are perfect..and they are.


Only slight issue is rolling, it takes getting used to. Someone mentioned tapping twice the edge of the screen before...but that doesn't work..... still only receptive to small circles for me.

optimisticlimboOctober 08, 2007

I think the controls are great except for rolling, those do indeed suck. You have to be in motion, get to the edge of the screen, and then do the swirls. Problem is, if it's a small area, you need to line up and get ready.
I actually think just moving movement to the d-pad/abxy wouldn't have been bad, leave everything else in tack, as is. (Except for the face button shortcuts, of course)

Ian SaneOctober 08, 2007

"Ian what do you think of the timed dungeon?"

I don't mind it so far but I've only had to go in it twice now.

"That's strange because you need to circle the stylus to swing your sword which you cannot mistakenly do"

Uh no you draw a straight line between you are your target to swing a sword which you CAN mistakenly do while trying to drag your "cursor" to make yourself move.

"they have obviously speant alot of time making sure they are perfect."

More like spent a lot of time to make the controls work as well as they possibly can within the limiting touchscreen-only restriction they set upon themselves to "prove" how their new controller ideas are supposedly so brilliant. I think they did a great job making the controls only use the touchscreen. The problem was that was a STUPID design from day one. Now they've got some really cool ideas in here and I really do like the game a whole lot but it's so blatantly obvious that the initial idea was "let's make a Zelda game that only uses the touchscreen". Whether this idea logically made even the slightest bit of sense or not didn't matter. I will give Nintendo huge credit in actually making this game not suck because anyone else would have made something unplayable.

Does anyone HONESTLY think that moving with the stylus is such a great idea? Not that it works okay but that it's actually BETTER than using the d-pad would be? I don't want "I think it's fine" I want to hear a reason why the touchscreen HAD to be used for moving. Or how about a reason why the OPTION of the d-pad should not have been made available?

UrkelOctober 09, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I don't want "I think it's fine" I want to hear a reason why the touchscreen HAD to be used for moving. Or how about a reason why the OPTION of the d-pad should not have been made available?


Analog movement. There are parts of the game that require it.

Besides that, games that require you to use the D-pad and the stylus are uncomfortable to play for a long period of time and require you to find a surface to rest the system on, making it not so portable anymore.

jakeOSXOctober 09, 2007

so, i am not read all posts, i am working on it, but since this is the intranets, i am gonna put my two cents in anyway.

here is what i don't like about this zelda. in every other zelda i have played i AM link. i think one, because of the stylus control, i don't feel like i am link, but rather i am someone telling link what to do.

planetidiotOctober 09, 2007

I don't mind the stylus control, other than rolling which never seems to work when I want, and seems to happen when I don't.

What's bugged me so far is that I'm supposed to make noise into the mic. I'm sorry, this is a portable system. I'm usually not playing it at home. So I'm supposed to yell into a microphone in public?

Also the auto jumping doesn't seem to work on moving platforms. Sure you can auto jump ON to the moving platform, but when you try to jump to the next platform instead of waiting for it to arrive, no, you walk right off the edge. This sort of inconstancy should have been picked up in beta. Why do I always find the problems my first game through and a skilled team of testers doesn't notice?

stedamanOctober 09, 2007

"Uh no you draw a straight line between you are your target to swing a sword which you CAN mistakenly do while trying to drag your "cursor" to make yourself move."

Well for movement you hold down the stylus to make you move....to swing the sword you are actually draggin the stylus in a motion that makes it swing...but not a design fault...works perfectly..but if you do the mistake yourself that will happen (Dunno how you could do this mistake, but oh well face-icon-small-frown.gif ).
For movement point further away and run with him for the most part... and you will not swing accidently at all.

Why is using the touchscreen for a game a stupid idea?
Thats why the DS has the touchscreen...to use it for some games...its different and unique.
I find it alot more pleasing using the stylus..its fresh and very enjoyable.
In mario 64 ds....thats different...the d-pad use is obviously the better option..but that wasnt made for just stylus play was it?

But with this Zelda, Nintendo have done an extremely good job to make a fantastic game.

"but it's so blatantly obvious that the initial idea was "let's make a Zelda game that only uses the touchscreen"

ofcourse it was..lol..so what's your point?

Why doesn't it "logically" make sense? You say the "slightest bit or sense or not"..but I feel you you think using the touchscreen the whole time isn't logical. Evne though the whole game is based on just using the stylus and that's why it works well..so I'm unsure of what isn't logical.

"Does anyone HONESTLY think that moving with the stylus is such a great idea?"

Yes its a brilliant idea..the whole game is based on it and so it works really well. Yes it is better than using the d-pad...that's the whole point. It's more than fine..it's brilliant!
Maybe the option to use D-pad should have been implemented just for you! face-icon-small-smile.gif
But that would defeat the object of the game and use stylus play in such a great way. It's easier to control with the
stylus for movement to go slow or fast for movement...so that's one better thing than the D-pad.






decoymanOctober 09, 2007

planetidiot: for the yelling parts, just blow in the mic. It doesn't even have to be that loud or windy.

Everybody else who wants stylus controls for certain parts, and d-pad movement for others. A few problems, and why I think they went with just the stylus.
1. Hand Cramps. Everyone complained about hand fatigue w/ MP:H and pretty much any other game which uses both d-pad and touchscreen. With just the stylus, you not only can hold the screen better, but you have access to the buttons for shortcuts to items and map and such.
2. Simplicity and analog. It's not only simpler to assume someone is always going to be using the stylus, but as Urkel said, Analog movement is vital for this game. In a game like this, you need both slow walking and running. No analog, and you have to do something clunky like hold down a button to walk slowly.

jakeOSXOctober 09, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: jakeOSX
so, i am not read all posts


apparently i am not speaking english either...

i have not read all posts.

Ian SaneOctober 09, 2007

"Why is using the touchscreen for a game a stupid idea?"

Because it makes moving awkward. It's floaty and inaccurate and you don't even feel like you're controlling the character. And it's only stupid to use JUST the touchscreen. There's no problem with using it period.

"ofcourse it was..lol..so what's your point?"

Um, because arbitrarily limiting a game to only use part of the controls available makes no sense? The goal for a game should always be to use what is appropriate and ideal for the game. The second you enforce a restriction for no good reason you're no longer trying to make the best game you can but rather the best game you can within the restrictions you set. They still made a good game this time but they sure didn't when they decided to make a "one button game" and got Kirby Air Ride. To make the best Zelda game on the DS they can their plan should be "let's make a Zelda game on the DS". Touchscreen, d-pad, buttons, whatever works best.

I didn't take into account analog control though I have yet to find a scenario where the standard 2D Zelda walking speed wouldn't have sufficed. I don't see how a movement system that some people have trouble with (I'm not the only one to complain) is better than one that no one EVER has had problems with. Nor do I see a reason not to provide the option. Metroid Prime Hunters had multiple control options. SSB Brawl will. Hell even Super Mario 64 DS did. Why the hell can't Zelda?

Though I suspect the reason there is no option is because then there's no way to compare and the method they have now would probably be less accepted if the other option was available.

I do want to mention one really good thing about this game. The boat is much better than Wind Waker's was. Part of what I didn't like about the big blue ocean of nothing was that changing the wind every five seconds was a pain in the butt which made me less enthusiastic towards sailing. Having a boat with a motor changes that and I'd be more interested in another ocean world like Wind Waker if I could just drive my boat whereever without caring about the wind.

thatguyOctober 09, 2007

Thirty years from now, there will be a new innovation in gaming: Buttons.

NinGurl69 *hugglesOctober 09, 2007

I was about to say Color TV.

decoymanOctober 09, 2007

lol, I just remembered this, but on one of the later floors of the Ocean King place, there's a skeleton/spirit complaining about lack of d-pad controls.

KDR_11kOctober 09, 2007

GP, you don't count because you're just trolling anyway. You just talk bad about random games to annoy people. Your comments are not related to the quality of the game at all.

I'm not sure if dpad use would be a good idea, playing Tingle tends to make my hand hurt because I have to hold the whole DS off-center with one hand.

Quote

What's bugged me so far is that I'm supposed to make noise into the mic. I'm sorry, this is a portable system. I'm usually not playing it at home. So I'm supposed to yell into a microphone in public?


I agree with this, mic use makes a game unplayable in public. I think portable games may need a portability score which would include things like distance between save possibilities (or progress possible within short play sessions), microphone use and any hardware gimmicks like Boktai's solar sensor.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 09, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
GP, you don't count because you're just trolling anyway. You just talk bad about random games to annoy people. Your comments are not related to the quality of the game at all


Uh ok, I thought I had some legitimate concerns about the game, not to mention I wasn't the only one with the complaints about things like the Ocean King dungeon and the touch controls. But I'm trolling. Give me a break. Also I think the D-Pad a buttons would be fine for the hand, not sure about d-pad and touch pad though. Though I can see using the buttons on the NDS for movement, and attacking but switching to the touch controls for things like throwing the boomerang and sailing the ship. That shouldn't hurt the hand.

Ian SaneOctober 09, 2007

"What's bugged me so far is that I'm supposed to make noise into the mic. I'm sorry, this is a portable system. I'm usually not playing it at home. So I'm supposed to yell into a microphone in public?"

Hell I play DS pretty much exclusively at home and I felt silly doing that. face-icon-small-smile.gif Really if you're talking about portability you have to question why Nintendo put the microphone on in the first place (though I think it's a good thing for an online system). But then this is Nintendo which designed WarioWare mulitplayer so you and your buddy have to hold the GBA together like you're more than friends. Maybe in Japan yelling into an electronic device on the bus is all hilarious and socially acceptable.

thatguyOctober 09, 2007

Where's Ty when you need him. He could tell us. What about that new Japanese correspondent? Who is he again? Can he tell us how many people shout at their electronics on planes, trains, and in the public in general?

GoldenPhoenixOctober 09, 2007

I am waiting for the reviewer to start defending himself.

UltimatePartyBearOctober 09, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k

Quote

What's bugged me so far is that I'm supposed to make noise into the mic. I'm sorry, this is a portable system. I'm usually not playing it at home. So I'm supposed to yell into a microphone in public?


I agree with this, mic use makes a game unplayable in public. I think portable games may need a portability score which would include things like distance between save possibilities (or progress possible within short play sessions), microphone use and any hardware gimmicks like Boktai's solar sensor.


In most games that ask you to blow on the microphone, it generally works rather well to lightly rub the microphone with your finger. It causes just as much noise, although it's hard to maintain a steady level if the game wants that.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 09, 2007

Geez, you guys are well too self conscious. I could care less if people watched me talk to the DS or blow in the mic!

IceColdOctober 09, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: decoyman
Here are some of my thoughts on the game, in a handy "Strengths/Weaknesses" list format!

Strengths...

1. Stylus control (when employing the shortcuts) is streamlined and AWESOME. When I first started, I had an issue with my hand being in the way sometimes, but I've gotten over that since.

2. Graphics are similarly AWESOME. This game is pushin' the polys hard (both screens, as someone said), and the same style which won (nearly) everyone over in WW is back in full force here. Excellent art direction and technical execution.

3. Memorable characters. I don't get the complaint about this. I can list off over a dozen totally memorable and hilarious characters. Don't make me do it, because I will!

4. HARDCORE GAMEPLAY OPPORTUNITIES ABOUND. Yes, I'm talking about the Ocean King Temple. This is set up for you to do speed runs, see how fast you can get through, what shortcuts you can find, etc. I'm nearly through the game just got the Phantom Blade or whatever it's called, and I've had a great time trying to improve my time. Plus, there is a HUGELY USEFUL shortcut which allows you to skip like half of the dungeon once you're fast enough, while retaining your time up to that point. If anything, Zach, maybe the problem is that you're not hardcore enough for this game. face-icon-small-shocked.gifface-icon-small-wink.gif Besides the OKT (as I will now refer to it), you've got sidequests out the wazoo. There are mini games to play, characters to unite, romantic intrigue to thwart(?!), force gems to find, ship parts to find and customize with, loot to salvage, timed mazes to run, fish to catch... need I go on? With all that, I don't miss heart container pieces one teensy bit. It IS true that this game is made easier with the stylus, but that doesn't mean it's not hardcore. In fact, despite it being made easier, I've died more times in this game than in either TP or WW.

5. Sailing is fun and breaks up the land-based action. I wish the weather/day system from WW was still intact here, but it's a minor thing really. There's a ton to do on the water, and you're rewarded for it with useful items too.

6. This Zelda tries a lot of different things, from sailing to powering up your fairy companions to stylus controls, to new collectibles (force gems, ship parts, ...), to story details no Ganon!, lots of humor (maybe the most in a Zelda game? I've laughed out loud more than once – like when Link goes to hold up the Phantom blade and Oshus just snatches it away as the typical Zelda "pick-up" music starts to play, and Link is just standing there in the pose, looking confusedface-icon-small-laugh.gif to new uses for familiar items grappling hook tight-rope walking and catapulting, anyone? how 'bout the hammer? to a temporary dungeon companion who can -gasp- attack and fend for himself??? to a new sort of multiplayer. All of these changes – ALL OF THEM – are great and welcome, and serve to freshen the Zelda gameplay/formula.

7. Engaging, creative, and FUN boss battles. But this is a given for a Zelda game. I was recently really impressed with the Ancient Stone Soldier boss battle.

Weaknesses/Quibbles:

1. The compositions are, for the most part, top-notch. However, I've run into more than a few occasions where the songs loop way too quickly/often. I'm thinking, running around outside when there are enemies about, and some dungeons. I wish there was a larger variety of tunes, because what's there is really good.

2. Missed opportunities with regard to the storyline continuity. Like someone else said, this a pretty unique in that it's a direct sequel. However, it would have been immensely cool to see more than just passing references (the intro is great and the Prince of Red Lions, "Want to be my apprentice? Good, your title is 'Half a Hero'" guy is pretty funny). Why not make the pirates show up again somewhere along the line? Even that small thread of continuity would have been welcome.

So! As you might guess, I disagree with many points of the review and its final score. However, I also disagree with the idea of writing a review with the idea of "what the average gamer will think of it." A review is a personal take on the game, and this was Zach's. I hope NWR gets a few more reviews of this game up soon to give a (hopefully) different viewpoint on it. It's unfortunate that Zach didn't have as good a time as many of us are having with it.

For me, I can see me finishing it, and then going back to play it again one day, maybe one day soon. The only other Zelda game I've done that with is WW. I guess it's fitting that the next game I might do that with is WW's sequel.
Quote

Originally posted by: decoyman
planetidiot: for the yelling parts, just blow in the mic. It doesn't even have to be that loud or windy.

Everybody else who wants stylus controls for certain parts, and d-pad movement for others. A few problems, and why I think they went with just the stylus.
1. Hand Cramps. Everyone complained about hand fatigue w/ MP:H and pretty much any other game which uses both d-pad and touchscreen. With just the stylus, you not only can hold the screen better, but you have access to the buttons for shortcuts to items and map and such.
2. Simplicity and analog. It's not only simpler to assume someone is always going to be using the stylus, but as Urkel said, Analog movement is vital for this game. In a game like this, you need both slow walking and running. No analog, and you have to do something clunky like hold down a button to walk slowly.
I pretty much agree with all of this. Bravo decoyman.

There's no point in defending my review at this point. I've seen almost nothing but seven pages of rampant fanboyism thus far. Just because I don't like this game AS MUCH AS other Zelda games does not mean that NWR's reviews are going down in quality. What does that even mean? You people don't agree with my review and all of a sudden the entire site is in question? Give me a break. You're all acting like I insulted a PERSON by finding fault with this game, and frankly, it makes me sick.

One of the most important aspects of reviewing a game, for me, is to compare that game to its peers. Phantom Hourglass fails to meet the high standards set by Wind Waker, Link to the Past, Link's Awakening, and, at times, Twilight Princess. And don't blame the technology. Link's Awakening, in my humble opinion, is one of the best Zelda games ever made, and it's an original Game Boy cart. Thusly, I cannot give PH a score as high or higher than any of those games. And I honestly did not like the Temple of the Ocean King. And you know, as I read other online reviews, I noticed that a lot of other gaming outlets didn't like it either, so it's not just me. And a lot of other people questioned the lack of D-pad control.

So I'm going to defend my review anymore. Nothing will be gained, and I'm not going to make anybody see the light. I did not like this game. That doesn't mean YOU don't have to. And other NWR staffers will be reviewing it soon, so maybe they'll like it, and you can just go ahead and read the review you want to read instead of mine. You know, the review that validates your point of view.

Smash_BrotherOctober 09, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Halbred
There's no point in defending my review at this point. I've seen almost nothing but seven pages of rampant fanboyism thus far. Just because I don't like this game AS MUCH AS other Zelda games does not mean that NWR's reviews are going down in quality. What does that even mean? You people don't agree with my review and all of a sudden the entire site is in question? Give me a break. You're all acting like I insulted a PERSON by finding fault with this game, and frankly, it makes me sick.


My post was actually supporting your review as I went over it piece by piece and it seemed just fine to me.

I begin to wonder why reviews are getting talkback threads at all, considering the sheer amount of bitching that always seems to happen in them.

When was the last review posted where EVERYONE said, "Yeah, that's pretty fair. I agree."?

IceColdOctober 09, 2007

Metroid Prime 3.

EDIT: Plus Halbred, the generic "rampant fanboyism" response isn't going to cut it, especially since people in this thread have been pretty civil, and they've backed up their points.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 09, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: IceCold
Metroid Prime 3.

EDIT: Plus Halbred, the generic "rampant fanboyism" response isn't going to cut it, especially since people in this thread have been pretty civil, and they've backed up their points.


You are right except for the part about backing up their points and being civil. Being civil isn't going around stating how NWR's reviews have went into the trash because someone didn't love PH like the majority. Heck I've disagreed with plenty of NWR reviews, but never went that far.

I can't wait to get this game! You guys look like you're having so much fun argueing about it!

IceColdOctober 09, 2007

arguing --- argueing

marketing --- marketting

EEEEAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

vuduOctober 09, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Halbred
There's no point in defending my review at this point. I've seen almost nothing but seven pages of rampant fanboyism thus far. Just because I don't like this game AS MUCH AS other Zelda games does not mean that NWR's reviews are going down in quality. What does that even mean? You people don't agree with my review and all of a sudden the entire site is in question? Give me a break. You're all acting like I insulted a PERSON by finding fault with this game, and frankly, it makes me sick.
We do this all the freaking time. (Note: those are four links, not one.) Chill out. Why don't you try to respond to some of the criticism and back up your points rather than take the high-and-mighty stance?
Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
When was the last review posted where EVERYONE said, "Yeah, that's pretty fair. I agree."?
April 4, 2007

UltimatePartyBearOctober 09, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

When was the last review posted where EVERYONE said, "Yeah, that's pretty fair. I agree."?

"Me too" posts are worthless and are to be discouraged. Guess what that leaves.


The only issue I have with this review is that the tone is maybe a little caustic. It sounds like there's strong hatred for the game, but obviously the score doesn't reflect that. It's something I've seen in plenty of reviews on sites large and small, when a reviewer spends a lot of time explaining why a game doesn't deserve a higher score but doesn't satisfactorily explain why it doesn't deserve a lower score.

I haven't played the game yet, so I can't comment on whether the review is accurate. However, there's something in the NWR policy I'd like to point out:
Quote

A game's score is a general indication of how good or bad it is compared to other games released for that system at the time

Compare that to the following:
Quote

Phantom Hourglass fails to meet the high standards set by Wind Waker, Link to the Past, Link's Awakening, and, at times, Twilight Princess. And don't blame the technology. Link's Awakening, in my humble opinion, is one of the best Zelda games ever made, and it's an original Game Boy cart. Thusly, I cannot give PH a score as high or higher than any of those games.

I can tell that you're offended, Halbred, so let me be clear: I am not attacking anyone here. I'm trying to be constructive. It seems to me that this review was not written in accordance with NWR's policy if it was based on comparisons to games from other systems and times. If venerated series such as Zelda are exempt from that policy, either that exception should be noted in the policy, or the policy should be changed.

Also, while I couldn't find it in the policy, I'm almost positive I've seen official comments to the effect that a game getting a higher score than some other game does not mean that one is "better" than the other.

This is one of the problems with having an intelligent readership... if I may so say myself. *ahem*

Alright, I'm sorry. I may have overreacted. Being one of the new guys, I'm not accustomed to having my review torn to pieces by the masses I write for. Now, in all honesty, I think I backed up my criticisms of the game pretty well in the review, and that should be taken at face value. However, I have to compare to Wind Waker at the very least, because PH claims to be a direct sequel to that game. I expect some continuity. There is NONE. In fact, at the end of the game:

SPOILERS AHEAD

Link and Tetra wake up from a dream. It was all a dream. Well, it obviously wasn't a dream, because Linebeck survived, but overall, the entire storyline does not impact Wind Waker at all. I think this speaks to Nintendo's reluctance to move beyond the Wind Waker, into territory not ruled by Ganondorft, Vaati, or any other familiar element. They had to construct a dream sequence instead which will have no resonance in the continuity of the series. But whereas Link's dream in Awakening was thought-provoking and meaningful, I didn't get that feeling at the end of PH. It felt more like Nintendo copped out on me.

SPOILERS END

So yeah. I didn't like it in relation to the other Zelda games, but I also didn't like it on its own. I think my review was fair to the game. And keep in mind that my take on PH is MY take on PH. Like I said, other NWR staffers may disagree and love it.

Also, I don't mean to lump EVERYBODY into the fanboyism category. Obviously there have been a few of you (like Golden Phoenix) who have stood up to the review, but overall people are tearing it apart. Thus my reaction above.

stedamanOctober 09, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Halbred
There's no point in defending my review at this point. I've seen almost nothing but seven pages of rampant fanboyism thus far. Just because I don't like this game AS MUCH AS other Zelda games does not mean that NWR's reviews are going down in quality. What does that even mean? You people don't agree with my review and all of a sudden the entire site is in question? Give me a break. You're all acting like I insulted a PERSON by finding fault with this game, and frankly, it makes me sick.

One of the most important aspects of reviewing a game, for me, is to compare that game to its peers. Phantom Hourglass fails to meet the high standards set by Wind Waker, Link to the Past, Link's Awakening, and, at times, Twilight Princess. And don't blame the technology. Link's Awakening, in my humble opinion, is one of the best Zelda games ever made, and it's an original Game Boy cart. Thusly, I cannot give PH a score as high or higher than any of those games. And I honestly did not like the Temple of the Ocean King. And you know, as I read other online reviews, I noticed that a lot of other gaming outlets didn't like it either, so it's not just me. And a lot of other people questioned the lack of D-pad control.

So I'm going to defend my review anymore. Nothing will be gained, and I'm not going to make anybody see the light. I did not like this game. That doesn't mean YOU don't have to. And other NWR staffers will be reviewing it soon, so maybe they'll like it, and you can just go ahead and read the review you want to read instead of mine. You know, the review that validates your point of view.


It's your review, everyone has different opinions and that's fine.
For me your review is totally different to what mine would be..but thats why we are different.
You didn't like the game? ...well i'm surprised to say the least...but thx for the review....alot of debate/discussion which is a good thing.




stedamanOctober 09, 2007

@ smash_brother

People are very opinionated..myself extremely..but it's not bitching.. more so debating/discussion.

that's what the point about reading a review and talking aobut it is all about. If you do'nt agree with it...you say why not.

stedamanOctober 09, 2007

@ Ian Sane

stedaman : "Why is using the touchscreen for a game a stupid idea?"

Ian Sane : "Because it makes moving awkward. It's floaty and inaccurate and you don't even feel like you're controlling the character. And it's only stupid to use JUST the touchscreen. There's no problem with using it period."

Again..I disagree controls for me feel like you can move fine and moving him yourself fine...feels fine.

I'm trying to get over the just use touchscreen debate. The game is based on it...that's just how it is..this certain game had the idea to use touchscreen onyl..and it was in my opinion very succesful. All games should have d-pad fucntions, is that it? ...very strange. Mario 64 Ds is complety different!... The game wasn't made like Zelda has been made. Enjoy this stylus only game! let another zelda come out later that uses the d-pad to satisfy your needs! , just enjoy this face-icon-small-happy.gif

ShyGuyOctober 09, 2007

I like you, Halbred.

But I didn't read this review. People just don't want NWR to lower the average score on Gamerankings or Metacritic.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorOctober 09, 2007

It's not the score of the review that some of us have a problem with - it's how the game seems to be attacked for crazy reasons. "This game isn't like Wind Waker!" is not a good reason to attempt to discredit a game. Unless, of course, we're going to start judging *every* game on how much the game is or isn't like Wind Waker.

So the game's not like Wind Waker. Super Mario 64 wasn't like Super Mario World - should we rag on SM64 because of that? Or just talk about the strengths and faults of SM64 on their own?

Additionally, the tone of the review was pretty unfairly harsh. A sentence such as "I never forgot that I was holding a stylus, dragging and tapping it on the screen like a monkey to make Link move." has no place in a professional review. Perhaps that was the problem - Halbred was too busy playing in feces like a monkey instead of playing the game.

Is this game absolutely perfect? Nope. It's not Link's Awakening. However, as a long time Zelda fan, I honestly would probably rank it higher than Wind Waker and Twilight Princess. Maybe even OoT...

GoldenPhoenixOctober 09, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: UncleBob
It's not the score of the review that some of us have a problem with - it's how the game seems to be attacked for crazy reasons. "This game isn't like Wind Waker!" is not a good reason to attempt to discredit a game. Unless, of course, we're going to start judging *every* game on how much the game is or isn't like Wind Waker.

So the game's not like Wind Waker. Super Mario 64 wasn't like Super Mario World - should we rag on SM64 because of that? Or just talk about the strengths and faults of SM64 on their own?

Additionally, the tone of the review was pretty unfairly harsh. A sentence such as "I never forgot that I was holding a stylus, dragging and tapping it on the screen like a monkey to make Link move." has no place in a professional review. Perhaps that was the problem - Halbred was too busy playing in feces like a monkey instead of playing the game.

Is this game absolutely perfect? Nope. It's not Link's Awakening. However, as a long time Zelda fan, I honestly would probably rank it higher than Wind Waker and Twilight Princess. Maybe even OoT...


That is fine and good, but SM64 didn't pretend to be SMWs sequel, nor did any of the other games you mentioned. PH was meant to be a a Wind Waker sequel for DS with Wind Waker's world shrunk down into handheld size.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorOctober 09, 2007

I think some people have a different definition to sequel. Regardless, if I wanted to play a game that was just like Wind Waker, I can play Wind Waker and save myself $30. I'm glad Nintendo choose to go a different direction with this game.

So... let's go with something that's a more direct sequel - Majora's Mask. It featured pretty much none of the characters or lands from OoT. It had entirely different game mechanics from OoT. (minor Majora's Mask spoilers) ...and at the end of Majora's Mask, nothing had changed in Hyrule or with our main characters - one of which wasn't even really featured in the game. So, would it be fair to trash Majora's Mask because it wasn't Ocarina of Time?

MaverickOctober 09, 2007

Exactly, PH is to WW as MM was to OOT and LA was to ALTTP. I wasn't expecting anything more from a Zelda "direct sequel". In fact, this actually has a lot in common with LA in some regards.

Ian SaneOctober 09, 2007

"It's not the score of the review that some of us have a problem with - it's how the game seems to be attacked for crazy reasons."

I see some of this but I also see a lot of knee jerk "how dare you say anything bad about a Nintendo game" stuff.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 09, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Maverick
Exactly, PH is to WW as MM was to OOT and LA was to ALTTP. I wasn't expecting anything more from a Zelda "direct sequel". In fact, this actually has a lot in common with LA in some regards.


Except the part about it taking on the exact same world with the exact same theme, with the exact same method of travel (just dumbed down). MM took place in an alternate NEW world not to mention had unique gameplay. PH is Wind Waker with touch controls for handheld gamers. Even LA went in a different direction from LoZ and Zelda 2, not to mention it was a brand new world. PH would have benefited greatly IMO if it took place in its own world, heck it has been so long since we've seen Hyrule imagined in 2D form. When Minish Cap has a more unique world and yes, gameplay (Besides some of the touch screen uses) you know you have problems.

MaverickOctober 09, 2007

PH isn't revisiting any of the old locals, so it is a "new world", but it definitely does share the same theme. The similarities to LA that I was referring to was more of a story thing. How is MM's gameplay unique compared to OOT? It had the same controls, unless you're referring to to the time limit, which PH also has, but not to the extent of MM.

LuigiHannOctober 09, 2007

IT'S TOO SIMILAR TO WIND WAKER AND ALSO TOO DIFFERENT.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorOctober 09, 2007

"How is MM's gameplay unique compared to OOT? It had the same controls, unless you're referring to to the time limit"

The time limit is one aspect, but the fact that about 1/2 the game is sidequests and the entire transforming into different species thing, all combined with the time limit really made the fundamental game play of Majora's Mask quite different than OoT.

"PH is Wind Waker with touch controls for handheld gamers."

GP, I think this is the basic aspect of your point of view that, in turn, really destroys your entire arguement - Phantom Hourglass is *not* Wind Waker. Face it, we all know Nintendo does not have a problem with re-releasing games on a different platform and making minor (or no) changes to them. And when they do, they pretty much keep the same name (or some variation on it). That's not what Phantom Hourglass is - nor is it what the game was meant to be (as far as I can tell, at least... you know, the entire lack of the game actually having "The Wind Waker" in it could be throwing me off though).

Sometimes I wonder if you're just another one of Super's dupe accounts....

Smash_BrotherOctober 09, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: vudu April 4, 2007


Good find.

Quote

People are very opinionated..myself extremely..but it's not bitching.. more so debating/discussion.

that's what the point about reading a review and talking aobut it is all about. If you do'nt agree with it...you say why not.


There's nothing wrong with being opinionated. It's the posts which outright attack the reviewer which pose a problem.

And I mention it because it seems like the poor reviewers here can BARELY get one past the "goal line", if you know what I mean.

IceColdOctober 10, 2007

Quote

Alright, I'm sorry. I may have overreacted. Being one of the new guys, I'm not accustomed to having my review torn to pieces by the masses I write for.
Better than apathy, don't you think? face-icon-small-wink.gif

MaverickOctober 10, 2007

Yes, Hallbred will go down in history as the reviewer who only moderately liked Phantom Hourglass! face-icon-small-wink.gif

And good point about the masks and such in MM, UncleBob, for some reason I didn't think about that at all. I was too busy trying to argue that PH is so different control wise that it's a unique experience form WW.

cubistOctober 11, 2007

I bought the game when it came out...but my brother the leaching Zelda fan started on it. He and I have the same opinion about Zelda titles and he thinks this is better than both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess both. I'm going to play through it myself to rank it. I just hope that this review isn't based on the disagreement with the control scheme...you'd lose all credibility as a reviewer if that's the case.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 11, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: UncleBob
"How is MM's gameplay unique compared to OOT? It had the same controls, unless you're referring to to the time limit"

The time limit is one aspect, but the fact that about 1/2 the game is sidequests and the entire transforming into different species thing, all combined with the time limit really made the fundamental game play of Majora's Mask quite different than OoT.

"PH is Wind Waker with touch controls for handheld gamers."

GP, I think this is the basic aspect of your point of view that, in turn, really destroys your entire arguement - Phantom Hourglass is *not* Wind Waker. Face it, we all know Nintendo does not have a problem with re-releasing games on a different platform and making minor (or no) changes to them. And when they do, they pretty much keep the same name (or some variation on it). That's not what Phantom Hourglass is - nor is it what the game was meant to be (as far as I can tell, at least... you know, the entire lack of the game actually having "The Wind Waker" in it could be throwing me off though).

Sometimes I wonder if you're just another one of Super's dupe accounts....


Perhaps you missed the part about its plot being tied DIRECTLY to Wind Waker, and it taking place in the exact same setting except miniaturized. Oh yeah and there is this part about the designer himself saying it was a direct sequel to Wind Waker. They dumbed down the sailing mechanics to drawing lines, you still go to different "islands" although this time you draw your line to a port on that island, heck they even limit where you travel with a very forced and linear mechanic (the tornado taking you back). That isn't even getting into the visual style which is 100% wind waker just taken down a notch for the DS. So what if it doesn't have The Wind Waker? At least that was an interesting item, not some gameplay device to explain a terribly tedious timed dungeon, at least Ocarina, Majora, and Wind Waker had an interesting item that impacted you throughout the game. Really though what makes PH so unique? Take out the basic "control" touch, what do you really have?

GoldenPhoenixOctober 11, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: cubist
I bought the game when it came out...but my brother the leaching Zelda fan started on it. He and I have the same opinion about Zelda titles and he thinks this is better than both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess both. I'm going to play through it myself to rank it. I just hope that this review isn't based on the disagreement with the control scheme...you'd lose all credibility as a reviewer if that's the case.


That is pretty ridiculous, when something is as basic as control, why can't you judge a game on it? If it feels like a gimmick, and may even hamper gameplay, why does that make it a credibility issue?

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorOctober 11, 2007

>"Perhaps you missed the part about its plot being tied DIRECTLY to Wind Waker"

In that it takes place after Wind Waker with Link and Tetra exploring. That's the only "tie" to Wind Waker the game says it has. "We did Wind Waker, now we're looking elsewhere". That's it.

>"and it taking place in the exact same setting except miniaturized."

Except that it's not the "exact same setting" at all. In fact, as the manual says that while exploring, "they happen upon seas protected by the Ocean King." Seems like a different location to me. Unless you think the Pacific and Atlantic Ocean are the "exact same setting, except miniaturized."

>"Oh yeah and there is this part about the designer himself saying it was a direct sequel to Wind Waker. "

Yeah, and, again, both Majora's Mask and Link's Awakening were said to be direct sequels, yet they didn't really involve their previous games, short of mentioning the events of the previous game.

>"heck they even limit where you travel with a very forced and linear mechanic (the tornado taking you back)."

Oh, yeah, that sucks almost as bad as your talking ship just telling you that you shouldn't go in a particular direction yet.

>"At least was an interesting item"

What? It was a stick you played music with. It was about as interesting as the weeds you picked in Twilight Princess.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 11, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: UncleBob
>

>"At least was an interesting item"

What? It was a stick you played music with. It was about as interesting as the weeds you picked in Twilight Princess.


A lot better then the Phantom Hourglass which does nothing except create an excuse for a timed dungeon. Also in Wind Waker the ocean opened up pretty fast and it was vast, in PH you can sail across it in a couple of minutes if you get all of it unlocked.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorOctober 11, 2007

Personally, I'm thankful you can travel across the ocean in PH in a couple of mins... Much better than traveling across the ocean in Wind Waker...

MaverickOctober 11, 2007

I DO agree with GP on the Wind Waker being a better item than the Phantom Hourglass. The PH is just a container for the time you collect to travel through the dungeon. The WW was a tool.

Quote

Originally posted by: cubist
I bought the game when it came out...but my brother the leaching Zelda fan started on it. He and I have the same opinion about Zelda titles and he thinks this is better than both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess both. I'm going to play through it myself to rank it. I just hope that this review isn't based on the disagreement with the control scheme...you'd lose all credibility as a reviewer if that's the case.


He gave the controls a score of 9.0.

DAaaMan64October 11, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
Quote

Originally posted by: cubist
I bought the game when it came out...but my brother the leaching Zelda fan started on it. He and I have the same opinion about Zelda titles and he thinks this is better than both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess both. I'm going to play through it myself to rank it. I just hope that this review isn't based on the disagreement with the control scheme...you'd lose all credibility as a reviewer if that's the case.


He gave the controls a score of 9.0.


yeah and the controls are sweet. haha I love what it did for the bow, bombchu's, and the boomerang. They all felt really fun to use. However I hate HATE the Ocean King Temple

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorOctober 12, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Maverick
I DO agree with GP on the Wind Waker being a better item than the Phantom Hourglass. The PH is just a container for the time you collect to travel through the dungeon. The WW was a tool.


They're both crappy, throw away items...

MaverickOctober 12, 2007

But with the WW at least you could make Link do a neat little dance. face-icon-small-wink.gif

GoldenPhoenixOctober 12, 2007

The Wind Waker impacted the gameplay directly, the PH really does nothing except give you a time limit in a dungeon.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorOctober 12, 2007

Whoo! Item of the Century FTW, right there. face-icon-small-wink.gif

Question - which would you rather have, a cheap plastic replica Wind Waker or a cheap plastic replica Phantom Hourglass? (I'd rather have a replica Majora's Mask, personally...)


(...waits for someone to suggest a replica Twilight Princess like a "love doll"...)

GoldenPhoenixOctober 12, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: UncleBob
Whoo! Item of the Century FTW, right there. face-icon-small-wink.gif

Question - which would you rather have, a cheap plastic replica Wind Waker or a cheap plastic replica Phantom Hourglass? (I'd rather have a replica Majora's Mask, personally...)


(...waits for someone to suggest a replica Twilight Princess like a "love doll"...)


I'd rather have the Wind Waker, because I can find an hourglass anywhere!

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorOctober 12, 2007

Ummm... you can find a stick anywhere as well...

KDR_11kOctober 13, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: UncleBob
(...waits for someone to suggest a replica Twilight Princess like a "love doll"...)


Oh come on, a Midna plushie would be cool. Reminds me of seeing a roughly 1 metre tall Yoshi plushie in a store when I was a kid, too bad it cost 200DM and I couldn't afford that... Would have been totally awesome, I think I was small enough at the time that I could actually sit on the saddle.

Smash_BrotherOctober 13, 2007

I'd rather give my daughter a Midna plushie instead of a teddy bear, personally.

mantidorOctober 13, 2007

So I just beated the first dungeon and I don't see the problem in gameplay, this is pretty standar for 2D Zelda, isn't it? I've played some of LttP and is not that different, is even better in some ways.

Oh and the prime: echoes mechanic of the ocean king's temple is awesome, I guess the terrible part comes later? So far, I have zero complains, well just one, my screen is going to end up a huge irreparable mess.

I just got to the Gorons which I guess is past the halfway point... and I have the distinct feeling that this game is awesome. This may be the first Zelda game I actually enjoy completely since OoT, without any moments of game breaking cynicism.

GoldenPhoenixOctober 23, 2007

Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
I just got to the Gorons which I guess is past the halfway point... and I have the distinct feeling that this game is awesome. This may be the first Zelda game I actually enjoy completely since OoT, without any moments of game breaking cynicism.


Thankfully Far Cry didn't have any of those moments! face-icon-small-wink.gif

FarCry didn't need my cynicism to break, it could frame tear all on its own, thank you very much.

KDR_11kOctober 26, 2007

I got PH when it finally came out here, not going to buy Metroid Prime 3 now that I've got so many games left to play...

Anyway, I'll second (or however high our count is so far) that the Temple of the Ocean King is not a big issue. Never had to solve a level twice the same way since the items switch it up (and sometimes different enemies spawn) and there's even a teleport to a lower floor included. The phantoms are fairly easy to avoid but it can get annoying when you have to wait for one to move to a certain point of its patrol. I only hit the time limit once and that was during my first run when I got stuck. What annoyed me more is that wannabe pirate woman since every fight with her is the same.

UncleBobRichard Cook, Guest ContributorOctober 26, 2007

You know, as much hate as some people give the TotOK (Temple of the Ocean King, for those who don't know), there seems to be a major effort among fans of the Zelda series to "Speed Run" the temple, completing it with "0:00" time used.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2LuZKu2PQLk

Some people (this review included) complains that the forced time limit restricts you from fully exploring the temple. It seems to me that the forced time limit is really giving people a reason to explore the temple. face-icon-small-smile.gif

This time limit doesn't restrict you from doing anything but running through that place willy nilly.

Or did y'all hate Wind Waker too?

BakaKidJuly 12, 2008

This might be really late, but I think I have to disagree with you on some parts... I thought Phantom Hourglass was a great game! Switching items while fighting was pretty difficult, but it was still enjoyable. This game, I believe, seems to turn towards more casual players. The bosses were easy (Except Gleeok or what his name is), But they were highly enjoyable! I had a lot of fun running around and defeating them. I do believe that the makers of Legend Of Zelda really want to expand their players. Wind Waker for example, they gave it a toonish look. Maybe it was because they wanted younger people to play.

The use of the D pad or the buttons wasn't necessary anyway. The platform for Phantom Hourglass is a DS, which specializes in the Touchscreen. There are many games that don't use the pad or buttons (I'm pretty sure). So you statement on that is a little irrelevant.

As I said before Phantom Hourglass is more easygoing or casual game. So it would be nice to look at things from another perspective.

People have opinions though. I don't want anything bad coming from you. I just felt Phantom Hourglass got a slightly unfair review...

BakaKid, I encourage you to read NWR's second review of Phantom Hourglass, written by me. I felt this review was a bit off myself when I read it, even before I had played the game, so you might agree more with my take on the game.

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The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass Box Art

Genre Adventure
Developer Nintendo
Players1 - 2
Online1 - 2
Controllers

Worldwide Releases

na: The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass
Release Oct 01, 2007
PublisherNintendo
RatingEveryone 10+
jpn: Zelda no Densetsu: Mugen no Sunadokei
Release Jun 23, 2007
PublisherNintendo
RatingAll Ages
eu: The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass
Release Oct 19, 2007
PublisherNintendo
Rating7+
aus: The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass
Release Oct 11, 2007
PublisherNintendo
RatingGeneral
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