Topic: *Big Surprise* 3rd Parties Failed the Cube at E3

[Termin8Anakin]

The thing about MP was that it wasn't so much action-military-oriented like Halo than it was about exploring and research.
MP2 looks bigger and better on all fronts.

[Uncle Rich AiAi]

Quote
Originally posted by: Urkel
Konami can just go to hell. Twin Snakes doesn't make up for anything. Did you know that they almost let all the voice actors go, because the voice actors wanted to be paid the same amount they got for MGS2, but Konami was only willing to pay the same amount they got for doing the original MGS (which was supposedly very little). Cheap bastards. Fortunately, David Hayter was willing to give up part of his paycheck to the others. God, just imagine Twin Snakes with C-list voice actors. Again, Konami makes sure that the PS2 Metal Gear game gets the royal treatment, while they're barely willing to even pay the damn voice actors for a game they hardly even made. Don't forget the fact that they didn't even advertise the damn game. Yeah, most people blame Nintendo for not doing that. Konami's the publisher, it's their responsibility! What's next, should Nintendo start wiping Konami's ass for them?

Source please?  I'm not calling you a liar, but I did not know about this (did anyone else?).

But yeah, Konami are pissing me off.

[BrianSLA]

>> Two and a half years is a whole generation to you?  <<

No but this generation is on it's downside. Two years of good prime time and now the tech is old. All consoles have their prime time and then they plateau out and then peter out.

[BrianSLA]

>> lol. I heard that GCN controllers give off electric shocks to anyone with a cool factor above 10%, so no-one cool plays gamecube because they get electricuted. <<

It has nothing to do with cool or whatever..... it is about the type of game the audience the game is meant for. Nintendo fans like Mario & Pikimin type games. Sony and Microsoft fans like GTA3 and HALO type games.

>> Zelda and Halo 2 wont even be going head to head, will they? <<

I seriously doubt it but that wasn't my point. The poster I replied to said something to the effect that Zelda was going to be some super duper mega system seller that ' saves ' Nintendo and kicks it into second place or the like. I say it won't. I said big deal about Zelda and how all the other so called Gamecube system sellers have all basically fallen on their face. Yeah the new Zelda looks good and I am sure it is probably a great game but it isn't going to be some magic potion to cure all Nintendo's ills.

I just don't get why SOME or even a lot of Nintendo fanatics on this site need to have their system become #2 or why they bitch and complain about 3rd party support when the those games don't fit Nintnedo's demogrphics and aren't the type of games Nintendo gamers want. The overwhelming majority of those games aren't games that Nintendo owners want. They aren't kiddie / family / Nintendo type games. They are PS2 / Xbox type games. The games you guys want are the games you are getting. You guys are all freaky about the new Zelda..... you are getting it. The new Metroid.... you're getting that too. That is the reason you bought a Gamecube for Nintendo games... you are getting them.
Nintendo isn't going be number one again... atleast not in the forseeable future considering that mainstream gamers tastes are now different. Mainstream gamers want more mature / action games than kiddie family Nintendo games. Am I wrong? No I am not. If mainstream gamers wanted that,  Nintendo would be #1 instead of #3. You guys would get all the third party games you want, etc.  

[BrianSLA]

>> Halo more like "Most overhyped game of century, plus the worst game in my collection" (Yes I do own it, so I can talk down to it all I want) <<

Thats your opinion. It isn't your cup of tea. I love the game and think it is one of the best games ever ( and most game sites and magazines and professional game developer awards ( GOTYs ) seem to agree w/ me ). But who cares. You like it or hate it. I like it or hate it. Who cares.

>> All sales can prove is which game was hyped the most, and means nothing when up against what game is better, so arguing about sales is pointless...  <<

No sales don't prove which game was most hyped. Yes it sometimes does ( i.e. Enter the Matrix - a really crappy game ) but usually good games sell, crap games don't. As for why I was arguing about sales..... read my post. I was responding to the guy talking about how great the new Zelda is and how it will basically cure Nintendo's ills and sell like hotcakes and sell systems with it, etc.

>> My God, BrianSLA is starting one of those "My daddy can beat up your daddy" arguments, and guess what? It's childish, so stop... <<

Again read the post. I don't know where you get the idea it is a ' My Daddy can beat up your Daddy post ' when it isn't. My post is just a RESPONSE. Your post seems to say I am name calling without arguing anything and then goes on to say my post is childish. All my posts argue my points, agree with them or not. I argued my points and didn't name call. You on the other hand didn't argue anything and just name called. Yours is a childish post based on your own statements and post. As for your comment " so stop "..... it is a free country..... atleast where I am living. If you want to debate me..... POST something with atleast some point or arguement.

[BrianSLA]

Ian Sane - The guy I was originally replying to. Thank you for actually debating / arguing your side with me rather then some of the fanboyish responses I got.

>>  don't see how Halo 2 is going to be such a big system seller. If you're interested in Halo 2 odds are you already bought an Xbox for Halo 1. If you don't already own Halo I don't see why you would have any interest in the seque<<

My response: PS2 owners. The Xbox is still superior hardware and while the PS2 is technologically maxed out and IMHO it is close to being maxed out on how many PS2 owners there can be. IF you want a PS2 and if you look at how many PS2s have been sold....... it is close to capacity. Those guys have nowhere else to go until the next generation comes out except Xbox and Gamecube and Gamecube doesn't appeal to them. The Xbox is now cheap and it is definitely better hardware. Nintendo Gamecube doesn't appeal to PS2 owners... they still have a place to go before the Next generation comes out. HALO still sells big because there are newer and newer Xbox owners.... first timers. Old Xbox owners are NOT  buying ADDITIONAL copies of Halo that keeps Halo in the best seller lists. It is brand new first time Xbox owners. I have had one copy and one copy of Halo since launch. Newer copies of Halo don't have anything new on them. It is the first time new Xbox owners who keep buying Halo. AND once Halo 2 comes out and gets its massive advertising push it will sell mega millions and PS2 owners have a another and better reason to get a new reasonably cheap Xbox. My evidence to prove my point..... the current sales for the Xbox.

>> Zelda at least has the advantage in that a lot of people who bought Ocarina of Time didn't buy a Cube for Wind Waker. Since the graphics turned off a lot of people I think it's fair to assume they'll come back now that the Zelda they were interested in is back. <<

A good point BUT IMHO.... those same people who bought Ocarina of Time ( myself included ) - their tastes have changed. I bought Ocarina of Time but I am older now and it just isn't me anymore. If you bought Ocarina of Time and remember the N64 days..... you aren't a teeny bopper anymore. You are probably in your late teens or twenties or thirties. Chances are your tastes have changed and skewed older, more mature. Hard core Nintendo fanatics being the exception. The majority of those gamers are now mainstream adult mature title gamers. Look at the latest statistics of VG gamers.... they avg. 29 years old. Those are the guys making the PS2 #1 and Xbox second.

>> I've never quite understood why Metroid Prime didn't sell systems like it probably should have. I mean that game had everything going for it. It appealed to older gamers, was undeniably cool, and it absolutely rocked<<

I agree. Metroid Prime's problem was that is was on the Gamecube. If it was on Xbox or PS2 it would have been a major hit and sold alot more. It was on the wrong system. Plus the ads sucking didn't help either. Am I wrong ? Do you disagree that MP on PS2 or Xbox would have sold better?

>> I think the reason SC did so well was because MS provided a huge incentive that Christmas for people to buy Xboxes with the JSRF double pack. People bought that and then bought Splinter Cell because it was the big new Xbox game at the time. <<

here I disagree. People bought SC because SC is a kick butt game and it was handled properly and sold well because of it. It also sold like hot cakes in that they released it at Christmas time when all the best stuff comes out and people are buying tons of stuff. I am sure the JSRF double pack didn't hurt sales but SC sold because it was an awesome GOTY game that deserved to sell big. The problem w/ Metroid Prime was it was on the wrong system ... great game. wrong audience. Same w/ Eternal Darkness. Do you think ED would have sold as lousy as it did if it was on the PS2? Nope.

>> I'll bet if they had done the $99 price drop then, Metroid Prime would have sold much better.  <<

Agreed. A cheap Gamecube at Xmas with a game worth buying would have sold alot more copies of MP.  

[Ian Sane]

"those same people who bought Ocarina of Time ( myself included ) - their tastes have changed. I bought Ocarina of Time but I am older now and it just isn't me anymore. If you bought Ocarina of Time and remember the N64 days..... you aren't a teeny bopper anymore. You are probably in your late teens or twenties or thirties. Chances are your tastes have changed and skewed older, more mature."

I don't see how this new Zelda is not "mature" enough for that demographic of gamers.  It looks quite similar to Lord of the Rings which obviously has huge appeal across all all demographics.  I can understand the lack of interest in Wind Waker because it looks like a cartoon but this looks very mature and realistic, far more so than Zelda ever has.  If Final Fantasy appeals to older gamers I don't see how this doesn't.  Plus in regards to age if you're 29 now you were 23 when Ocarina of Time came out and I doubt your game tastes would have changed much in that time.  Odds are you would be even more open minded.

I don't think Metroid Prime was released on the wrong system.  It's Metroid.  It's a classic Nintendo franchise that appeals to Nintendo's fanbase.  It didn't sell poorly it just didn't sell systems so it was limited by the size of the Cube userbase.  Wind Waker and Super Mario Sunshine, two games that obviously appeal to the Cube demographic, hit the same roadblock as well in regards to sales.  I don't think MP would have done much better on the Xbox because it's too experimental.  It looks like an FPS but doesn't play like an FPS.  The Xbox userbase tends to be the least appreciative of innovative game design.  All of the big Xbox hits are very generic "safe" titles that play exactly like one expects them to.  MP would quickly be dismissed as a sucky FPS because it has no mulitplayer and has lock-on aiming.  On the PS2 its total sales probably would have been better but only because of the sheer size of the PS2 userbase.  Realistically any game would sell better on the PS2.  However in proportion to the total userbase I think MP would have sold better on the Cube.

The sales of Metroid Prime were limited by Nintendo's sh!tty marketing of the Cube.  They only recently have started to create mainstream interest with the price drop.  I don't think the problem has to do with demographics especially since kids are more likely to own a PS2.  It entirely has to do with Nintendo doing a really sh!tty job of informing people of the quality of the Cube's lineup.  Microsoft has always advertised the Xbox and its games as an amazing console with the best games that everyone MUST own.  Nintendo has merely pointed out that the Cube and its games exist without giving any indication to their quality.

[Bill Aurion]

If you think you're too mature for Zelda, you are obviously just the opposite...To think you are too good for something is the kind of attitude I really despise in people, particularly in gamers...

[mouse_clicker]

Quote
"The only one worried about being too much of a kid is in fact a kid. We adults worry about not having enough time to be a kid."

-giroml

 

[jasonditz]

Quote
Originally posted by: BrianSLA

Nintendo isn't going be number one again... atleast not in the forseeable future considering that mainstream gamers tastes are now different. Mainstream gamers want more mature / action games than kiddie family Nintendo games. Am I wrong? No I am not. If mainstream gamers wanted that,  Nintendo would be #1 instead of #3. You guys would get all the third party games you want, etc.

Nintendo is already #1 unless for some reason handheld games don't count.

If the "Mainstream gamers" only want mature titles why do more people own GBAs than own PS2s?

Saying Nintendo is #3 based on Gamecube sales is like saying the EyeToy sold less than the Dreamcast and calling Sony #4.

[Perfect Cell]

Nintendo isnt number one... Its arguable whether its number 2 or 3... Thats besides the point.

I dont nececarily think that nintendo does not cater to older gamer,s it tries to go for both younger and older. Its simply not been fully succesfull in brining in more of the older demographic. Something that i admit is odd, since Nintendo seems to at least try. Stuff like bringing in Resident Evil, seems like an attempt, just not a good one.

Its simply the Nintendo policy, you can see it through its magazine, that tries to avoid covering mature games as much as possible. If games like RE and Eternall Darkness would have gotten as much hype on the magazine as other games did they would have sold better.

Nintendo can atract older gamers, it just takes a shift of policy.. Something that i dont know if Nintendo really wants to.

Btw. I dont think the reason third parties dont sell on the Cube, is because Nintendo fans prefer Nitendo games. I personally have plenty of third party games.  I can name some examples of third party games that sold better on the cube. Soul calibur 2, Godzilla DAMM, Vietifull Joe, and Sonic Batle 2/Sonic Heroes.

These games either took advantage of the GCN hardware, provided superior exclusive options like Link in SC, or appeared on the Game Cube first. Problem is Third Parties dont actually acknowledge this only when games like Turok sell worst on the Gamecube.

If Third Parties would release games on time, and didnt look worse than their PS2 Versions then sales would increase. The Third Party situation is partly Nintendos fault, partly Nintendo fans fault and partly the actual third parties faults...

It is something that should be rectified if Nintendo plans on gaining market share on both its competitors.... Its possible but it takes alot of work

[Chongman]

Quote
Chances are your tastes have changed and skewed older, more mature. Hard core Nintendo fanatics being the exception.

Hmmm...let's recap...nintendo's pre-E3 conference when everyone in the room simultaneously peed their pants...

Right, nintendo fanatics are the exception. This is afterall, not an older, more mature game.

[jasonditz]

Quote
Originally posted by: Perfect Cell
Nintendo isnt number one... Its arguable whether its number 2 or 3... Thats besides the point.

I'd love to know exactly how you're determining #1.

But even beyond that, if that's "besides the point", what the hell is the point?

I mean, if the measure of a video game company's success is not hardware shipped, profitability, or software sold... what's left?

Is the whole raison d'etre of the video game industry to sell the most hardware to 14 year olds who think they're part of the "mature" audience?

[mouse_clicker]

Quote
I mean, if the measure of a video game company's success is not hardware shipped, profitability, or software sold... what's left?

If you ask me, it's determined by the quality of their games, and in my opinion Nintendo is, has been, and always will be number 1.

Hell, even if you go by profitability, Nintendo's still number 1.

[Ian Sane]

Counting GBA sales or measuring profitability to decide Nintendo is number 1 doesn't mean sh!t.  It's the perception of the gaming public that matters.  That's what encourages people to take a risk with the next console.  Nintendo was "technically" number 1 with the N64 generation too if you use the same logic but that didn't prevent people from having an early bias against the Cube.  The magazines that crapped on the Cube and the rental stores that didn't stock Cube games at launch didn't base their opinion on who technically was number 1.

[mouse_clicker]

Public image doesn't account for jack if you're not making any money. You may rail on Nintendo's poor image with the public all the time, Ian, but the fact remains that Nintendo is making an assload of money, not just on the GBA but the Gamecube, too. Do you know what that means, Ian? Nintendo is guaranteed to be in this industry for a very long time. You could have the best selling product in the world, but a loss is still a loss. The only role public image plays is getting you to that point of profitability, but it seems Nintendo has found an alternate route to that particular destination.  

[Perfect Cell]

that Nintendo is making an assload of money

That hasnt been the case recently.  I think the last Nintendo economic thing or whatever they call it, Nintendo was actually at a loss... It led to the price cuts with the Gamecube... Nintendo has been making money... until recently.

[jasonditz]

Nintendo made money from operations... the loss was a paper loss because of the US dollar's precipitous losses against the Yen.

[Ian Sane]

"Public image doesn't account for jack if you're not making any money. You may rail on Nintendo's poor image with the public all the time, Ian, but the fact remains that Nintendo is making an assload of money, not just on the GBA but the Gamecube, too."

Yeah I know that.  That's what being number 1 in profits means.  I'm just saying that fact isn't going to sell systems and thus doesn't provide the same advantage that being the percieved number 1 has.  So it's a moot point in this situation.  No one's going to think "hey technically Nintendo makes more profit so I'm buying an N5".  They are going to think "man that PS2 was the best I'm so getting a PS3".  Profit is important obviously but to a gamer it means nothing so in regards to system sales, hype, and third party support that technical number 1 doesn't matter.

[jasonditz]

The thing is, Nintendo's "poor image" (meaning Nintendo's lack of coolness with the 14-16 year old Xtr3m3 g4m3r crowd) isn't some new thing you just discovered... its been true for a decade now.

And yet Nintendo is still the most profitable, still selling more hardware than anyone else, still producing many the highest quality titles in the industry.

So I guess my question is, why should they change?

I mean, Mario isn't going to sell to the 14-16 year old crowd... that's no reason he should go shoot a hooker.

[Myxtika1 Azn]

Quote
Originally posted by: BrianSLA
A good point BUT IMHO.... those same people who bought Ocarina of Time ( myself included ) - their tastes have changed. I bought Ocarina of Time but I am older now and it just isn't me anymore. If you bought Ocarina of Time and remember the N64 days..... you aren't a teeny bopper anymore. You are probably in your late teens or twenties or thirties. Chances are your tastes have changed and skewed older, more mature. Hard core Nintendo fanatics being the exception. The majority of those gamers are now mainstream adult mature title gamers. Look at the latest statistics of VG gamers.... they avg. 29 years old. Those are the guys making the PS2 #1 and Xbox second.

If the people who did not buy Wind Waker because they were disappointed by the art style, I would say that their tastes did not change at all.  If their tastes changed, why be disappointed at all?  What kind of people would cry over something they do not care about?

Quote
Originally posted by: BrianSLA
I agree. Metroid Prime's problem was that is was on the Gamecube. If it was on Xbox or PS2 it would have been a major hit and sold alot more. It was on the wrong system. Plus the ads sucking didn't help either. Am I wrong ? Do you disagree that MP on PS2 or Xbox would have sold better?

I DO disagree that MP would have sold better on the Xbox.  First of all, going by YOUR statement, Xbox owners like Halo-type games.  To me that means generic FPS.  MP does not control like a generic FPS.  Since MP does not control like a generic FPS, MP is not a Halo-type game.  Therefore, MP would not sell as well, if at all, on the XBox.

On the PS2, it's possible that it could have sold as much because of its massive userbase.  But then again, I think the controls would still be an issue.

Now, if you take out all the explorations and puzzles, and add in mindless shooting, unimaginative level designs, and repetitive gameplay, then MP might become a Halo-type game.

Quote
Originally posted by: BrianSLA

here I disagree. People bought SC because SC is a kick butt game and it was handled properly and sold well because of it. It also sold like hot cakes in that they released it at Christmas time when all the best stuff comes out and people are buying tons of stuff. I am sure the JSRF double pack didn't hurt sales but SC sold because it was an awesome GOTY game that deserved to sell big. The problem w/ Metroid Prime was it was on the wrong system ... great game. wrong audience. Same w/ Eternal Darkness. Do you think ED would have sold as lousy as it did if it was on the PS2? Nope.

What is so great about SC that makes it a "kick butt game"?  Before the game came out, I read all these previews about how cool the lighting effects are.  Big deal.  The gameplay on that is based on frustrating trial-and-error.  For being a highly trained spy/asassin/WhateverHeIsSupposedToBe, Fisher has sh*t for self-defense moves.   It sucks to me.  What was so good about it that made it game of the year?  Cool light effects?

Another thing, I see you throw the word kiddie around a lot.  What is the definition of kiddie? What are kiddie games?  Are E-rated games considered kiddie games?

[mouse_clicker]

Quote
I agree. Metroid Prime's problem was that is was on the Gamecube. If it was on Xbox or PS2 it would have been a major hit and sold alot more. It was on the wrong system. Plus the ads sucking didn't help either. Am I wrong ? Do you disagree that MP on PS2 or Xbox would have sold better?

Why because you shoot stuff? Metroid Prime's main gameplay element was exploration and puzzle solving, something Nintendo fans love. You have a really flawed logic, Brian- it's not as simple as this "kick butt" game not doing well because it's on the wrong console. Metroid Prime was a Nintendo game through and through. Your statements lead me to believe you haven't even played it, although I'm hoping that's not the case.

[Shift Key]

Quote
>> Halo more like "Most overhyped game of century, plus the worst game in my collection" (Yes I do own it, so I can talk down to it all I want) <<

Thats your opinion. It isn't your cup of tea. I love the game and think it is one of the best games ever ( and most game sites and magazines and professional game developer awards ( GOTYs ) seem to agree w/ me ).

BUPBOW. GAMERANKINGS DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOU! DOES THAT MAKE IT HARDCORE NINTENDO OR JUST IMMATURE? AND LOOK WHAT GAME IS NUMBER ONE?

[Bill Aurion]

"I agree. Metroid Prime's problem was that is was on the Gamecube."

Ahahahahaha!

(Let's all laugh at newbie gamers like BrianSLA)

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Quote
Why waste money porting or creating an entirely new game that won't sell on the Gamecube.  The Gamecube is for Nintendo fanatics and kiddie game fans

Hey brian, thanks for proving why drugs are bad for you.  There have been some 3rd party games that have sold better on the Cube than the Xbox and/or the PS2; why?  Because those companies actually put time into making their games good and/or giving cubers a reason to buy, it has to do with quality more than anything else, there are too many good ninty games on the cube for mediocre games to have the same success on the cube that they experience on the other systems.

Quote
it won't bring Nintendo into the #2 spot. This video game console generation is basically over. PS2 won by a landslide. Xbox came in second.

Actually WW the cube is second not the Xbox