Topic: Nintendo Patents GBA Emulation

[WindyMan]

Not only are all current GBA emulators flirting with copyright laws, they're now violating a Nintendo patent.

Nintendo has recently been awarded a patent for "a software emulator...emulating a handheld video game platform," or in English, any and all Game Boy emulators.  Those listed in the patent give the examples of cell phones, PDAs and the video screens found in airplane seats, but in effect, the patent refers to just about anything that duplicates or enhances the Game Boy line's hardware via emulation.

Now that Nintendo is the sole, legal owner of GBA emulation, any and all emulators are now just as illegal as the ROMs (though some people will argue otherwise).  Companies such as Crimson Fire, which released a GBA emulator for the Tapwave Zodiac PDA last month, have recieved a cease and desist order from Nintendo, citing their patent as grounds for the suit.

[Ian Sane]

Isn't some third party releasing a Gameboy Player knock off that uses emulation to play GBA games on the Cube?  Is this product illegal now?

This is bullsh!t.  I don't have a problem with fighting piracy but this is going a little too far.  First of all it doesn't make any f*cking sense to be able to just hold a patent on all programs that do a certain thing.  I can't hold a patent on word processor programs and technically a Gameboy emulator is no different.  Plus there is a perfectly morally acceptable use of emulation that doesn't hurt Nintendo at all (though I don't know if it's in use).  If someone made a device that allowed you to play physical GBA carts on your cell phone it would not affect Nintendo's profits because if it played real GBA carts the games sales wouldn't be affected and that's where the money is.

Hell why doesn't Nintendo just patent the whole f*cking concept of portable game systems?  Right there they could completely eliminate the competition.

[vudu]

the device you're referring to is the datel advance game port.  and, to be honest, i've never figured out how this thing is legal in the first place.  

it's using datel's own hardware to play nintendo's games.  if this is legal, what's stopping a company from creating a stand-alone portable video game system that can play gba games and selling it as a cheaper alternative to the gameboy advance or gameboy advance sp?  or even a home console that could play one of (or all of) nintendo's/sony's/microsoft's systems?  

[Pale]

Does it specifically say Gameboy hardware? or just portable video game platform?

If it is just for Gameboy hardware, there is nothing wrong with this.  They created and designed a piece of hardware.  Emulators are basically ultra cheap copies of nintendos hardware.  If someone came out with a piece of hardware  that played gameboy games and sold it, of course that would be illegal.  Why shoudl someone be allowed to create and market an emulator of something Nintendo owns?  They should be illegal.  It should fall under normal copyright laws in my opinion.  The patent shouldn't be needed.

[Pale]

Vudu, Yeah, i've got taht datel thing for my Q...  Only because i ordered my stupid Q gameboy player and then it got discontinued before I got mine.  VERY pissed off I am.  The legality of it doesn't make any sense to me...see my last post.

[GaimeGuy]

I'm sick of people using the excuse "BUT EMULATORS CAN BE USED TO  HOME-CODE AND TO TRY OUT GAMES!  WHAT THE HELL IS NINTENDO DOING? THIS ISN'T FAIR!"

Bullshit.    While   those  ARE practical uses for emulators, the reality is,  those home-coders make up about as much of the  emulator users as  people who  use linux on  their home consoles, perhaps less.  In other words,  the excuse for making your own  GBA software is nothing more than an excuse.  And if you really want to  develop for the GBA, then buy a damn  development kit from Nintendo.  

And if you want to check a game out, rent it from one of those online  dealers which let you rent games, or buy the game, try it out, and  return it if you don't like it.    I know,  a lot of people do this legitimately, but a lot of other people say something along the lines of "After trying the game,   I feel it isn't good enough for me to buy,"  but they go and keep the ROM.  

And Ian,  developing a device to play   GBA carts on, say, a cell phone, would be illegal.  It would be like   making a device that allowed you to play  G.O.D.s on your X-box:   Do you honestly  think that could be considered legal?    

[GaimeGuy]

And Datel probaby  had to pay Nintendo royalties  to be able to do that, or   perhaps make a certain percentage of the profits go to Nintendo.   They did SOMETHING, that's for sure.

[Fammy2000]

FYI: The Crimson Fire emulator does not yet emulate GBA games. Just GB and GBC. GBA is coming soon.

And on a side note, the Zodiac is pretty nifty if your into PDA's. Its the best of the Game Boy and PDA world put together.

[Coarse_Limely]

That's something I'd expect of the Evil Warlord Yamauchi. I think he's still running the show from behind a curtain somewhere. Way to go, Nintendo! The most bastardly approach to a problem I've seen in awhile.

[Ian Sane]

"And Ian, developing a device to play GBA carts on, say, a cell phone, would be illegal. It would be like making a device that allowed you to play G.O.D.s on your X-box: Do you honestly think that could be considered legal?"

Of course it would be illegal.  That's what the patent states.  Seriously though I agree with you to a point and I don't think I made myself perfectly clear with my post.  If they're selling it and thus making a profit off of it then I can see why Nintendo should care.  However if some guy made a GBA emulator that played real carts and just shared the knowledge with other people and it wasn't sold anywhere to me that should acceptable.  It would be like moding your Cube to play Japanese games.  If someone designed a mod to let the Xbox play Cube games I wouldn't really have a problem with that either.  The games still have to be bought so the company is still getting their money and no piracy is taking place.  Perhaps the GBA is a bad example because it uses it's own custom cartridge design that would require extra hardware to emulate.  The Cube would be a better example because it's discs fit in all disc based drives.

I remember my cousin had a Playstation emulator on his PC that let him play PSX games with his CD-ROM drive.  He bought all of the games he had so there was no piracy.  To me that seemed acceptable.

Plus one issue that bothers me is that this patent could last longer than the Gameboy itself.  Let's say in ten years the current GBA/GBC/GB format is no longer supported by Nintendo.  They reached a stage where they switched to a new medium that didn't allow for backwards compatibility.  So now there are no devices in stores that let you play GBA games and no GBA games are sold.  At this point Nintendo could still crack down on someone making an emulator to allow people to play these old games that are hard to find.  That doesn't seem right to me and I've never had a problem with downloading ROMs for abandoned games and consoles.  If Nintendo is going to freak out over NES emulation that's fine if they make the NES available in stores again and make it so I can buy those old games brand new.  Outright preventing me from accessing these games is just BS.  If you don't want me emulating Super Metroid maybe you should make it available to buy again.

[Zero]

i totally agree with Nintendo on this one . . . if i took all the time and money to develop a system, i wouldn't want some bastards taking away my profit by creating an emulator for it,

also, this could possibly mean that Nintendo is thinking of incorporating their own GB emulators into future systems, just a thought

[Deguello]

" Plus there is a perfectly morally acceptable use of emulation that doesn't hurt Nintendo at all (though I don't know if it's in use)."

You're right Ian.  It's just too bad most (read: VAST MAJORITY) people just want to use emulators to play GBA games like Zero Mission and Mario and Luigi before legitimate copies even exist.  I mean that is just out of control.  And the fact that you are unsure this method of emulation is still being used adds more fuel to the fire.  For every 2 or 3 guys that MIGHT make an egg timer out of a GBA or learn how to overclock it or whatever, you got hundreds of people who DEFINITELY use GBA emulation to freeload brand new GBA games, sometimes before they are even released.

"I can't hold a patent on word processor programs and technically a Gameboy emulator is no different."

Different beasts.  A patent on Word Processors wouldn't fly because it's too broad a concept.  Now I think you can patent "Ian Sane's Word Processor," because that specifies things a bit.  However, Nintendo's GameBoy stuff is already specific and mostly proprietary in nature.  

[Kairon]

I think a major issue we're forgetting about is that the article mentioned a GBA emulator on the Tapwave...a handheld PDA... a competing portable...

If something isn't done about emulating GBA hardware now, we may soon see the PSP emulating GBA and DS games.

And with that firmly at stake, I can't help but completely support Nintendo in this action.

Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[vudu]

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It would be like moding your Cube to play Japanese games.

nintendo hates when people do that.  so does sony and microsoft.  it throws off sales figures big time.

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If someone designed a mod to let the Xbox play Cube games I wouldn't really have a problem with that either.

i think nintendo might have a problem with that.  let's pretend a million modded their xboxes so they could play gamecube games.  suddenly it looks like nintendo has a million less people in its user base, which makes them look bad in the eyes of potential developers.  plus, i'm sure microsoft wouldn't be so happy if it sold systems at a loss, only have to have consumers use it to play competitor's games.

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I remember my cousin had a Playstation emulator on his PC that let him play PSX games with his CD-ROM drive. He bought all of the games he had so there was no piracy. To me that seemed acceptable.

what about the millions of people who did that exact same thing, only instead of buying games they downloaded them on irc?

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That doesn't seem right to me and I've never had a problem with downloading ROMs for abandoned games and consoles. If Nintendo is going to freak out over NES emulation that's fine if they make the NES available in stores again and make it so I can buy those old games brand new.

what do you call the nes games in animal crossing?  or unlockable metroid in metroid prime/zero mission?  or the 100 or so nes/snes games that have been re-released on the gba?  nintendo (and other companies) still owns the rights to these games, and if they want to reserve the games for potential re-release in the future, it's their decision.  and while certain games might not be available in any other form right now, you downloading bionic commando today might stop you from buying it if it's re-released in the future.

[Ian Sane]

"or the 100 or so nes/snes games that have been re-released on the gba?"

I thought someone would bring that up and, at least in regards to Nintendo, it's not the same thing.  Nintendo has foolishly CHANGED all of their SNES->GBA ports.  They make tweaks to make them easier and add REALLY irritating voices.  Thus to a purist the GBA version of A Link to the Past is not the same as the original SNES version.  The only way to play the "real" game is to own a SNES and get an original copy (which would be used and thus also doesn't make Nintendo any money) or play the ROM.  Nintendo could have given us the original version but they didn't and thus the original is still not in stores.  The "proper" way to re-release a game is using emulation like Sega did with Sonic Mega Collection.  However even with that method a lot of ports are poorly emulated and thus aren't up to par with the original.  Again in that situation the ROM may be the only way to go.  If games transfered to new formats as seamlessly as movies went from VHS to DVD then it's a valid case but there's so many crappy ports out there that it ruins the arguement.

[ssj4_android]

This is old. When I looked at it for the first time, I decided that this does NOT refer to PC GBA emulators. Unless you consider a PC a "low-capability target platform," you have nothing to worry about. And I'm sure Nintendo would like refering to the gamecube as a "low-capability target platform" as well. Ha.

[czrdup]

I don't want to disagree with anyone, not being a lawyer, but this patent does not mean that Nintendo owns gba advanced emulation.  The concept of emulation is not patentable.  Even if it is a specific system.  

What this patent is for is an enhancement of emulators that allows systems that don't have sufficent hardware to emulate a handheld system.  So the reason that it talks about cell phones, pdas and video screens are these are examples of systems that need this specific innovation.  

If you had bothered to read the patent (and I don't recommend it, it really will warp your mind) they reference the fact that there are emulators for gameboys already.  If they were trying to patent that idea, that admission would not allow the patent to be granted.

Blah... argue all you want.  The fact of the matter is it isn't even clear whether it will apply to the crimson fire emulator.  All you have to do is create an emulator that doesn't use the specific thing in the patent.  That doesn't mean that dear ol' nintendo won't try to beat them with it.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I likez teh emu

[mouse_clicker]

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This is bullsh!t. I don't have a problem with fighting piracy but this is going a little too far. First of all it doesn't make any f*cking sense to be able to just hold a patent on all programs that do a certain thing.

Keep in mind that "certain thing" is Nintendo's OWN cartridge format games. This is no different than patenting a console, since emulators emulate that very thing- in essence this is just an extension of the patent Nintendo already has on the GBA. Nintendo, and Sony and MS for that matter, have every right in the world to place a patent on the machine they designed and plays their games. Emulators in of themselves are a form of piracy. I can't possibly see how Nintendo shouldn't be allowed to do this.  

[vudu]

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The only way to play the "real" game is to own a SNES and get an original copy (which would be used and thus also doesn't make Nintendo any money) or play the ROM.

this is a stretch, but please bare with me.

i remembered reading this article:  GameSpy:  A Conversation with CESA: The Voice Of Gaming In Japan

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In 1997, more focus was spent on the influence of used game sales as opposed to new game sales. The distribution and sales were gradually increasing, and the game distributors felt this was not a good trend as used sales were eating into their business. They wanted some portion of the proceedings from the sales of used games.     We have copyright laws in Japan. However, within those copyright laws, movies were treated separately from other copyrighted materials.     With movie companies, the laws were such that after they sold their media, their movies, the movie companies were still able to garnish part of the second- and third-hand sales. The reason for that law was that 50 years ago, in the days after World War II, when the movie industry was still building itself up, films were sold from theater to theater and on down the line. That was the reason why the exception was created for movies.     As you are well aware, today's games have a lot of cinematic scenes. The game manufacturers are trying to get the games recognized the same as movies, so that even after they are sold they will still have the right to receive part of the proceeds when games are sold second hand.     The distributors and retailers are saying, "This is not the case. Games should not be treated like movies."

 sorry for the long quote, but i wanted to put the important part in here for those who can't be bothered to read the four page article.  point being, if the laws in japan change, nintendo will be able to earn money from the sales of used games.  if this is the case, nes/snes/gameboy/n64 emulators will hurt nintendo's bottom line.

[Ian Sane]

"if the laws in japan change, nintendo will be able to earn money from the sales of used games. if this is the case, nes/snes/gameboy/n64 emulators will hurt nintendo's bottom line."

Well this isn't Japan and the games I use emulation for are 99% of the time the American versions which Nintendo does NOT make money off of used sales from.  Plus in my opinion getting a cut from used sales is total bullsh!t anyway.

[Kairon]

And has no one paid attention to my fear of GBA games showing up on competing handheld PDAs and systems? Especially with reference to the TapWave's soon-to-be emulation software for GBA games?

Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[ThePerm]

well in your emulator program all you have to do is put in it somewhere..this is designed to emulate a non portable system with specs very similar to gba... themn it would be all legal...emulating only simulates hardware.....

[GaimeGuy]

Deguello and mouse stated what I think perfectly:    emulation has gotten out of hand:  99.9%  of emulators are being used to  get free games.   And  Nintendo has the right to  earn money off of the things THEY make: the games,  and the hardware.   As mouse said,  and this is something I have believed for a very long time:    emulators  themselves fall under piracy:  They're, in essence, pirated systems.

[nickmitch]

Well if you duplicate the hardware to get free software then thats bad.
To copy hardware to used the accual cartriges isn't as bad.
Copying free soft ware on to real hard ware is bad.
That's the way that I see it.