Topic: A bold idea for the N5

[Ian Sane]

I have thought of an idea that, while it likely won’t happen, could make the N5 a huge success and compete directly with the PS3.

One of Nintendo’s biggest problems is variety.  Most Nintendo games have a similar feel to them.  It’s great if you’re a Nintendo fan but if you’re not there’s not much there to interest you.  Plus Nintendo themselves have traditionally not been able to fill in all of the genre gaps on their own.  They rely on third parties to supply sports, RPGs or fighting games.  Unfortunately they have the problem they can’t get decent third party support without a larger userbase and they can’t get the userbase without third party support.

What Nintendo needs is for another developer to exclusively support the N5 and fill in the gaps.  I think Sega would be the ideal fit.  They have a good track record of making great games and they have popular series to fill in the gaps.  They have their own sports line, several RPGs (Phantasy Star, Shining Force, Skies of Arcadia), Virtua Fighter to fill the fighting gap, and they make more “mature” content than Nintendo does.  The only problem is that buying them would be really expensive and not realistically feasible.  So how else does Nintendo get exclusive Sega support for the N5?

Nintendo should in exchange for N5 exclusivity grant Sega complete freedom with the N5 as if Sega was a console maker again.  That means that Nintendo provides Sega with the same knowledge of the console as they do for their own first party teams.  That means that Sega gets input in the design of the controller and other parts of the console.  That means that Sega can release whatever they want and not have to pay licensing fees to Nintendo.  Essentially the N5 has two first party developers and the amount of exclusive content doubles.  Plus Sega provides all of the online games.  All Nintendo has to do is make the console able to go online.  Sega creates the online games which sets the example for third parties to make online games and Nintendo themselves don’t have to take the risk.

Now there is one pretty big risk to the whole thing.  Nintendo makes a lot of money from licensing fees for third party games.  With Sega being given free reign that means that there’s going to be a lot of Sega releases on the N5 that Nintendo won’t make any money from.  However I think the risk is justified.  The idea is that by having exclusive Sega support it will attract a larger userbase which should translate to better sales for Nintendo’s first party games and more third party support which means more licensing fees.

Let’s face it.  With exclusive support from both Nintendo and Sega the N5 would be a huge smash with hardcore gamers.  Virtually anyone who supported the Cube or Dreamcast would buy it in a second.  I don’t think it would beat the PS3 but it would be able to be a strong number two for sure.  It would attract a lot of the pre-Playstation era gamers who remember the wars between Nintendo and Sega.  The videogame press would eat the system up which would create good hype.  I think one thing that hurt the Cube was that a lot of the gaming press were down on it.  That wouldn’t be a problem here.  Plus the sheer amount of killer apps would ensure success.  Nintendo would probably still be able to make a profit and would have a good foothold for the next gen when they likely wouldn’t need Sega’s exclusivity again.

I’m assuming the deal wouldn’t extend to the Gameboy which doesn’t need exclusive Sega support.  That would be ideal since Nintendo would still get licensing fees and Sega would be given more freedom to experiment around with the N-Gage.  Sega would also be free to release PC and arcade games.

Realistically I don’t think Nintendo would ever go for this since the idea of allowing another company to make money without paying a fee to Nintendo would turn them off.  It’s too bad because I think this idea could work really well.

[vudu]

with your idea, would nintendo make any money on a sega game sale?  i don't think first parties make any money on game sales except from licensing fees.  would nintendo be able to remain profitable if sega didn't have to pay any licensing fees?

also, correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't believe any of the ea sports games were published on dreamcast because of sega's own sports games.  the return of them might cause ea to pull its sports lineup from the n5.  needless to say, that's a very bad thing.

it's a nifty idea, but i think outright purchasing sega would make a little more sense.  any idea how much that would cost?

[Ian Sane]

"with your idea, would nintendo make any money on a sega game sale?"

No.  I'm hoping that Nintendo can make their money off of first party sales and third party licensing fees from other third party games.  The idea is that Sega's exclusive support helps drives systems sales which then drive software sales for Nintendo and third party games.

"also, correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't believe any of the ea sports games were published on dreamcast because of sega's own sports games. the return of them might cause ea to pull its sports lineup from the n5."

Well right now Sega's sports games are multiplatform and they haven't affected EA's sales so I don't think EA would have any good reason to back out.  Plus they don't care about Microsoft's or Sony's first party sports games so it's kind of weird for them to be against Sega's.  I did think of this but I'm hoping EA knows that they don't have to worry about Sega.

[mouse_clicker]

Why does everyone expect Nintendo to provide the variety themselves? I think they've done pretty damn good these last two generations working basically by themselves. Yes, lack of variety is a problem, but it's not Nintendo's responsibility to fill that gap with their own games. The simple solution to the problem is give 3rd parties every reason to develop for the N5 and no reason not to. The only reason the Playstation 1/2 have done well at all is the 3rd party support- the same goes for the XBox, as well. Nintendo was #1 once upon a time because they had the incredible 3rd party support Sony now has combined with the incredible 1st party Nintendo still has. It was the seperation of these 2 factors that led to Nintendo's decline and the rejoining of them is the only thing that can lead to Nintendo's rise.

[Ian Sane]

"The simple solution to the problem is give 3rd parties every reason to develop for the N5 and no reason not to."

Of course.  But how specifically do they do that?  I don't expect Nintendo to provide the variety themselves but I do expect the variety to be there, if that makes sense.  Technically it's different than Nintendo providing it all itself.  That's why I think this plan would work.  Sega and Nintendo combined provide the variety.

[vudu]

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right now Sega's sports games are multiplatform and they haven't affected EA's sales so I don't think EA would have any good reason to back out.

the fact that ea didn't publish any sports games on dreamcast seems to be a good reason as to why they wouldn't publish them on the n5 if sega spots was exclusive.

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Yes, lack of variety is a problem, but it's not Nintendo's responsibility to fill that gap with their own games.

if nintendo can't get third party developers to do it, it is nintendo's responsibility.

[mouse_clicker]

Sega alone had variety, but it didn't save them in the end. Extending a huge deal like that to Sega is a good idea, but it shouldn't stop there. It also shouldn't be limited to just the big 3rd parties, which Nintendo has been favoring up until recently. Nintendo shouldn't focus on forming a huge alliance with a company like Sega until they've persuaded many of the smaller 3rd parties, as well as most of the big American publishers, to support the N5 as much as they support the other consoles.

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if nintendo can't get third party developers to do it, it is nintendo's responsibility.

No it's not, it's Nintendo's responsibility to get back those 3rd parties. Don't speak idly of providing the immense diversity present on the NES, SNES, PSX, and PS2, because it's much more of a task than you could ever imagine, and no one developer could ever hope to fulfill that position by themselves. Remember, Nintendo is just one company- people expect them to revolutionize every genre with every release and have blockbuster sales with every game, and that's just not possible. I think the main reason a lot of people here are dissapointed with Nintendo lately is because they had their expectations set WAY too high (I don't even see the need for expectations- they do far more bad than good, if they do any good at all). Get realistic, people.  

[vudu]

i didn't mean nintendo has to do it.  i meant nintendo needs for its console to have a wide variety of games--it's just good business, as i'm sure you agree.  the wider the variety of games, the more people who will buy the console; the larger the user base, the most developers who will be interested in making games for it--and the cycle continues.  however, right now nintendo isn't doing so hot (relatively speaking) at getting developers/publishers interested.  if nintendo can't get third parties to do it, they'll need to do it themselves.  those are the only two options that i can see.  

i'm not suggesting nintendo should make sports games (other than the occasional f-zero and maybe a sequel to punch out).  i'm just suggesting that if you can only accomplish something in one of two ways, and one of the ways isn't working, you're not left with much choice.

EDIT:  in fact, i would like to stress that i think it's best for nintendo to stick with what it does best--make great action/adventure/platform games.  but i do agree that nintendo does need to get better third party support to round out its library, and ian sane's suggestion isn't a bad idea, in theory.

[Ian Sane]

"It also shouldn't be limited to just the big 3rd parties, which Nintendo has been favoring up until recently. Nintendo shouldn't focus on forming a huge alliance with a company like Sega until they've persuaded many of the smaller 3rd parties, as well as most of the big American publishers, to support the N5 as much as they support the other consoles."

Well if Nintendo persuades the smaller third parties and the American publishers to support the N5 then they don't even need to do any sort of big deal with Sega.  The idea was to do the big deal first to get people buying N5s which would then attract the third parties.

"I think the main reason a lot of people here are dissapointed with Nintendo lately is because they had their expectations set WAY too high"

Realistically I didn't expect the Cube to beat the PS2 or anything like that but I did expect it to do better because it has the potential to.  What bugged me was that Nintendo made a lot of dumb mistakes that a lot of us spotted a mile away and to me it didn't seem like they tried hard enough.  Nintendo could crash and burn like Sega did but it wouldn't bother me if it looked like they made a huge effort and gave it their all.  The N64 didn't really disappoint me too much because Nintendo gave it their all despite being held back by a major hardware mistake.  With the Cube they didn't appear to give it their all.  With the N5 all I need to see to be satisfied is for Nintendo to put in 110% and try as hard as they can to make it the best console it can be.  It could last for only two years and Nintendo could go broke but as long as they did all they could I would be satisfied.

I think that's why so many people were happy with the Dreamcast.  Sega failed but they tried as hard as they could and went out guns blazing.  The Dreamcast was made to succeed or die trying.

[The Omen]

I agree Ian.  Sega, or even Namco to a lesser extent.  (Or Capcom) Get one of them exclusive, and that gets Nintendo the 'street cred' that teens will dig.  Unfortunately, Nintendo=clueless in obvious situations like this.

On the N5, nobody at my art school even mentions it when talking about next gen.  PS3 is going to be 1000x more powerful then the PS2(yeah, right) and Xbox 2 is going to be 10,000x more powerful(LOL) .  Thats all I hear, yet people dont even consider the N5.  Thats not good.  GC gets mocked by teachers, but there is some good support from the students.  But it seems the N5 will have an self inflicted uphill battle.  

[Darc Requiem]

Great idea Ian, you always come up with something that is fleshed out and thought provoking. I agree with you on Nintendo's seeming lack of effort with the GC. As said in a past Nintendojo editorial it seems like there are two Nintendo's one that runs the Gamecube and the company that pulls out all the stops for the GBA.

I had an idea that I thought that Nintendo would use. They won't do it but I was thinking that Nintendo shoud charge damn near nothing as far as licensing fees. MS charges about $7 per game sold, Sony and Nintendo are in the $9-10 per game range. Of course this excludes deals done to garner major support but my logic is this. Nintendo sells a boatload of games, their problem is that their userbase has been strinking rapidly since the SNES. I think Nintendo should charge $3-$5 as there licensing fee per game. Exclusive titles would get a $3 licensing fee and with other games getting a $4 to $5 dollar licensing fee. Sony would be hesitant to match this, MS would match it most likely match it but it would cause them to hemorrhage even more money. I've observed Sony. Now that they are on top, they are slow to equal the oppositions policy. In fact the are bordering on 80s Nintendo arrogance. Nintendo sells the most first party titles and would be least affected by the initial negatives of lower licensing fees and benenfit most from the rewards. They'd garner more third party support which would lead to a larger userbase. With a larger user base Nintendo would sell more games and at the $30+ dollars per unit sold they'd make more money in the long run.

Sorry about babbling.

Darc Requiem

[mouse_clicker]

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On the N5, nobody at my art school even mentions it when talking about next gen. PS3 is going to be 1000x more powerful then the PS2(yeah, right) and Xbox 2 is going to be 10,000x more powerful(LOL) . Thats all I hear, yet people dont even consider the N5. Thats not good. GC gets mocked by teachers, but there is some good support from the students. But it seems the N5 will have an self inflicted uphill battle.

Omen, no offense, because I like you a lot and respect your opinion more than almost anyone else's on this board, but I am sick and tired of people spouting off "my friend said this" and "my friend said that"- your friends don't mean jack squat. I don't care if your classmates think bartlett pears cure diarrhea, much less what they think about the next generation of consoles. I've always been perplexed as to why people felt the need to relay the opinions of their friends and acquaintances about anything. It holds absolutely no bearing at all in the real world, so why waste your time on it? I'm probably overreacting a lot, and like I said, Omen, you're one of my favorite people here, but I honestly couldn't care less about what the people at your school think about videogames, and it's certainly not going to make any difference to me. That's just always something that's really grated on my nerves. I'm sorry if I offended you.

[Ian Sane]

Darc I don't know exactly if those dollar amounts are realistic or not but I totally agree that fees should be lower for exclusives.  Now deals are made all the time but I think it should be a standard.  If it's exclusive the fees are automatically lower.  However rules have to sorted out.  How long does the exclusivity have to last?  I would say either six months or a year.  There also has to be a way to prevent third parties from releasing slighty enhanced ports (like MGS2 Substance) as a loophole.  I don't know how that sort of thing could be determined in a legal contract but it has to be prevented or third parties would abuse the policy.  Plus they have to prevent third parties from releasing delayed PS3-to-N5 ports and slaping "Special Edition" on it to get the lower fees.

Another idea regarding licensing fees would be to not charge a fixed amount like $5 but rather a percentage of the MSRP.  That way it makes it easier for third parties to release budget titles and we don't have situations like Capcom charging full price for Playstation RE ports.  Plus then more titles can be $40 which would encourage sales and would be an ideal price for brand new original games that need to provide an extra incentive to get people to try them out over established franchises.

[Zeks]

Unfortunately mouse, thats how most people think.  Im not tryin to offend anyone but IMO thats how most people think.  The population in general is dumb.  Therefore peer pressure is high, all that 'she said', 'he said' stuff.  This includes the cool factor, hype, etc.  You wonder why Sony is where they are today lol.  Just like Windows and Mac.  Things in 'general' only get 'worse'  crappy windows sells more than the much better mac/linux/unix and the same is for the games industry, Sony is the 'Microsoft' for the most part.

Im not saying its all over for the Big N but, unless they really 'do something' wether its new marketing, buy up Square, w/e, or the industry crashes, IMO they will have missed their chance at being #1.  And it will only get smaller, to a point, hence Mac's 10%-12% market of PCs.  Dont get this mixed up with "Nintendood is D00mEd' or anything, Im just saying they got a shot and if they miss, chances are theyre gonna stay where they are or even less.

[Uncle Rich AiAi]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Nintendo should in exchange for N5 exclusivity grant Sega complete freedom with the N5 as if Sega was a console maker again.  That means that Nintendo provides Sega with the same knowledge of the console as they do for their own first party teams.  That means that Sega gets input in the design of the controller and other parts of the console.  That means that Sega can release whatever they want and not have to pay licensing fees to Nintendo.  Essentially the N5 has two first party developers and the amount of exclusive content doubles.

Ian - you came up with another interesting idea.  But as we know, fat chance of that happening.  Although I would love for it to happen.   Sega!

While Sega would fill the genre gaps, and would bring the hardcore Sega fanboys aboard, it would be big risk for Nintendo to make.  I don't think Sega are as well known and/or popular with today's casual gamer, as they were in the early 90s during the Genesis/Megadrive days.  I'm sure some casual gamers view Sega as a failure b/c they dropped out of the hardware business.  Most Sega games have not been selling as well as they should.  That is partly Sega's fault for not marketing probably and releasing games on a console that does not suit its gamers *cough*xbox*cough*, a lot of their games are sadly ignored.  Again, that's a big risk for Nintendo and from a business point of view, I cannot see it happening.  I'm not sure how Nintendo would feel about giving Sega input into the designs of the controller and the hardware and no licensing fees.

[Syl]

The biggest issue with that idea, and its a very large issue in itself, and you said it.
nintendo wouldn't be making any money.

It seems like a purely one-sided deal for sega.  Sega gets all the benefits, nintendo gets none.  Nintendo wants to make money, so I know something like this isn't going to happen.

[The Omen]

Mouseclicker, no worries, I am not easily offended.  I was not saying they matter to me, or to you.  They should matter to Nintendo because you really think that anyone anywhere else has a different opinion?  I used as a basic survey.   Surveys can be used to garner an overall feel for the majority, with as little as 100 votes.  Its done all the time.The fact is, in my school, it does matter, because these instructers for Game Design are working or have worked in the actual game industry.  The fact is this:  the majority of these instructors talk about PS23 and XBOX2 all the time in class.  They know Sony reps.  They have MS people visiting every couple of months.  Nintendo does not make a blip on the radar.  This shows how the market is increasingly bleak for a Nintendo console.  ( in terms of market share).  That doesn't mean I think its right.  But I do take people who know the market opinions over what we of the message board say or believe.  They end up mattering more than we do, because they work for, or have worked, for some big companies, and if they have this opinion, so do some of their fellow workers.  

[Ian Sane]

"Sega gets all the benefits, nintendo gets none."

How does Nintendo get no benefits?  Having exclusive support from a major third party seems like a pretty big benefit to me.  It should sell more consoles and increase market share.  That's a benefit and directly relates to Nintendo's own game sales.  Higher userbase = higher game sales.

The problem with Nintendo is that profit is their sole focus.  They can't stand to ever lose money.  But market share and public image are important too.  If those things become worse then eventually Nintendo won't be able to get people to buy their consoles and thus won't make a profit.  They have to learn to take a bit of hit in the present in order to make more profit in the future.

If the N5 follows the same pattern the N64 and Gamecube went Nintendo's market share is going to shrink even more and their public image is going to become worse.  If they don't do something big to shake things up I can't see very many people buying their sixth or seventh console.  Hell without something big I don't even see the N5 selling all that well.

[vudu]

damnit, ian; look what you did.

Sega's Explosive E3 Announcement

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Sega will surprise the gaming world with an announcement from their booth at E3.  ...  Sega is calling it an "Explosive Announcement Event".  ...  Many people have speculated that Sega will announce Shenmue III exclusively for the Xbox, but the sheer magnitude of this event seems to point to something bigger.

if this (while extremely unlikely) turns out to be an exclusive partnership between nintendo and sega i'm convinced ian sane works for nintendo.  that, or he's a witch.

[Ian Sane]

I saw that headline too and did a double take.  No way could my idea be real.  Could it?  I figure there's a 99.99999999% chance that it isn't but if it is I'm going to start one of those psychic hotline deals.

"i'm convinced ian sane works for nintendo."

No I don't but if they did use this idea and it worked I would be pretty cheesed if they didn't offer me a job.  It could be in the f*cking mailroom, I don't care.

Now someone should post a link to this thread and the annoucement news blurb in the Gamefaqs boards and in an hour it should be a full scale rumour of megat0n proportions.

[Zeks]

LOL yeah, M E G A T O N 2!!!  But yeah I agree with ur last paragrapn Ian, if they dont do something fast in the next 2 YEARS then I dont see N5 nor N6 doing well, and if they dont do well then I honestly dont even see a N7.  Not spelling doom and gloom for the big N but its reality and its obvious that they dont have 'too' much time left to get back at #1.  Anything else will stunt(like it is now) the 'growth' of the entire company cause all theyre about is games .  

[Ian Sane]

"its obvious that they dont have 'too' much time left to get back at #1."

They don't have to even be number 1.  They just have to be a strong presence in the industry that people take seriously.  The Sega Genesis finished second to the SNES in the end but it didn't matter because it was a strong competitor and Sega had a strong name brand.  People knew when they bought a videogame console, even if they did virtually no research, that Nintendo and Sega were the brands to look into.  Right now a lot of people don't even think of the Cube when they consider buying a console.  It just doesn't have that strong name brand.  Nintendo needs to be in a situation that when they go to EB to buy a console they see an N5 and think "hey Nintendo.  They make good consoles."  It's like when to go to buy a DVD player you're more likely to buy something by Panasonic, Sony, or Toshiba because you're familiar with the name and associate it with quality even if that DVD player isn't the best choice to go with.

[Zeks]

Yeah I agree, thats what I was getting at for the most part.  Right now all you hear is XB2 and PS3.  Half the people dont even know Nintendo has another console comming out(again) lol.  Still though, they need to get that rear in gear, soon.

[mouse_clicker]

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Many people have speculated that Sega will announce Shenmue III exclusively for the Xbox, but the sheer magnitude of this event seems to point to something bigger

On the polar opposite side of things, if this little bit of speculation is true, I'd say Sega's the one that's doomed if they don't partner up with Nintendo.

[vudu]

i'd really get a big kick if sega announced it was creating its own console that will launch christmas of '05.