Topic: Emergence of Social Classes

[mouse_clicker]

Yesterday I went to the mall to play some DDR (ended up playing more Para Para Paradise- very strange, but very fun). My group of friends and I took a break to go the food court and get something to eat. While I was eating I saw a girl that looked about 12 years old (and was really cute, but I can say that because I'm 15 ). What was really odd, though, was that she was wearing a shirt that said "I Nerds". That posed an interesting question that led my friends and me into a very in-depth debate- just how early are social classes emerging nowadays? I'm only a few years older than this nerd girl (as we have come to call her) and I distinctly remember that when I was her age, about 6th grade, school was filled almost entirely with sheep that followed the leader of the week- there were no "real" class distinctions beyond perhaps the preppy kids and everyone else. 7th grade was much the same way, as was most of 8th grade (which is probably why I hated middle school so much, because everybody was trying to find out where they fit in). It wasn't until about 9th grade when social classes really started to emerge and began clicking together. And something that makes this whole ordeal even more puzzling is that such a shirt as nerd girl was wearing implies a subclass, that of the nerd lovers, which most definitely did not appear until much later than 6th grade. I've debated this with many people, with their ages ranging from 16 to 21, and they all seem to have had the same experience as I did, in different times at different schools, with classes not really emerging until 9th grade- how is it that social classes between my generation and that of 6 years' my elder would change very little, but in a period of roughly half that time such a radical change would come about? Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed.  

[ThePerm]

interesting discussion...i remember in 9th grade a few friends rejected me because i was a bit on the nergy side....anyways in high school i ended up meeting whole new people and we were our own group i guess you could say...lately iv been a social whore...i organized a big Final Fantasy CC party

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

1.  We're not in the 80s anymore.

2.  Blame Britney Spears.

3.  Differing levels of mental maturity lead to differing times when the individual finds his/her "socio-ecological" niche.  Some experience this during/after their transition to high school, others are delayed till that fictitious magical place called "college."  The rest may be a mixed bag.

4.  Blame Britney Spears.

[PaLaDiN]

Well, I don't know about you, but back home in the middle of nowhere a distinct pattern of social classes started emerging around grade 6 or 7. We just didn't have any names for them. There was the group that did "rude, bad things" and would later turn out to be the "cool group" and "pimps". There was the group that didn't say anything and were called "no-lifes" but would later be known as "deep" and "too smart for their own good" (I was part of this group). There were the "jokers" who would later separate into "lame jokers" and "hilarious jokers." (I was part of the latter one, according to my friends. Gotta love the way they lie to make you feel good.) There were the "ugly girls" who would later turn out to be "stay away from them girls". And of course there were the teachers and parents who turned from "they're so stupid, they never know what we want!" to "I have to thank my parents and teachers for everything they've done" just in time for graduation.

"Nerd" was pretty much used to insult anybody who studied, and was countered with "moron".

I hope by saying that "I love nerds" girls are a subclass, you are talking about it in the Java sense of the word - inherits attributes from the parent class but does some modifications... and not as in, inferior to normal classes.

I've had a model love me, for heaven's sake. The counter-examples don't get more convincing than that.  

[mouse_clicker]

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3. Differing levels of mental maturity lead to differing times when the individual finds his/her "socio-ecological" niche. Some experience this during/after their transition to high school, others are delayed till that fictitious magical place called "college." The rest may be a mixed bag.

You have a very good point- everything clicked for me in 6th rade, so middle school was very surreal watching everyone struggling to do the same. But even the kids that were ahead of their time in 6th grade still weren't as developed as nerd girl.

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I hope by saying that "I love nerds" girls are a subclass, you are talking about it in the Java sense of the word - inherits attributes from the parent class but does some modifications... and not as in, inferior to normal classes.

Oh, of course. I called the "I love nerds" girls a subclass because the class can't emerge until the nerd/geek class does as well, which isn't until about 9th grade, so I've noticed.

I agree that the template for social classes existed in 6th grade, but they hadn't developed yet, as they have by high school. Hence my confusion over the 6th grade "I love nerds" girl. I mean, I've been playing videogames since I was 3, 12 years now, but the gamer class didn't emerge until recently.  

[PaLaDiN]

Well, yeah, the social classes are emerging and becoming more well-defined earlier these days.

I mean, I've seen kindergarteners drop the f-bomb in my brother's class, and my mom's already teaching him that they're "rude, bad boys". Shouldn't take many subsequent years for them to develop into the "cool group".

I blame the downfall of society, the trashification of the media and the disappearance of family values.

[KnowsNothing]

=O  Like oh my gawd!

If you read my journal, you would have noticed that girl in my class wore that same exact shirt! (but you don't, do you?)  She's either 13 or 14 (not cute, but hot.  Big breasts for her age. =P).  I was sad.  See, i am one of the nerdiest kids in school.  but do I look it? Not at all.  Not to say I look cool, but unless you got to know me, you would think I'm a sk8er, not a nerd.  I wanted her love. ;__;  I wanted it REAL BAD.

Oh yeah.  She's part of the "cool" group.  I think she just wore it to be different.  SHE LIES!  She made all us nerds feel special only to shatter us LIKE A BASEBALL HITTING A CARROT STICK.  I HOPE SHE DIES.

[mouse_clicker]

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Well, yeah, the social classes are emerging and becoming more well-defined earlier these days.

But why such a sudden change? Like I said, there was apparently very little change for over half a decade, then suddenly now in half that time we have a huge shift of when classes emerge?

KnowsNothing: Heh, I've been mistaken for being both a skater and a stoner, but I've also been called on a number of occasions the biggest nerd in my school, the biggest geek in my school, and the biggest dork in my school. Looks truly can be decieving.

It's interesting you saw a girl almost as young wearing the same shirt, too- then again I guess we're both special cases as well, since we both started posting at gaming message boards when we were 12, which I guess would be no more strange than girls that age wearing "I love nerds" shirts- perhaps nerd girl is a special case such as we. It's still very odd, though.

Oh, and I don't read anyone's journal.    

[PaLaDiN]

I've seen the same shirt...

But then again, I'm in college now, so I see all kinds of stuff.

And I think one of the biggest reasons for your question is the internet.

Back in the day, you had to WORK to look at porn. Now all you have to do is fire up google or *****. There's no mystery anymore. And legal age limits never apply online. Especially not if you have an older brother.

Because of that, media outlets have been forced to resort to bigger shock value, thus letting kids see even more shocking stuff.

And because of the dysfunctional kids that develop, dysfunctional families form. Leading to more dysfunctional kids. It's a vicious cycle.

Dude, if you have a kid in this day and age he's guaranteed to be screwed up. My generation was one of the last few to even be able to resist corruption.  

[mouse_clicker]

I think you've found the reason, Paladin, but isn't it startling how such a big change can happen to fast? Further displaying my nerdiness, such an example can be found it the book Dune (the only book, in my opinion, that can compare to Lord of the Rings). It would be too much of hassle to try and explain the connection to those who haven't read the book (those who have probably know what I'm talking about), but it does display how experiencing so little while still young rapidly speeds up maturity.

It still all confuses me, though. You always think of society changes as being gradual.

[Berny]

Adding to what Paladin said, Abercrombie and Fitch has had a LOT to do with this. A&F, I think we'd all agree, is THE coolest place to shop. Hot diggity damn hot pants. Icy cool tees. Sexy jewelry. And the store is adorned with the most beautiful models they can find. "If you buy our clothes, you will be sexy like these people!" Abercrombie is just too damn cool.

And the coolness is spreading. Hollister is doing similar things. The manequins (sp?) outside their stores are skinnier than Barbie and Ken dolls and the "male" manequins are shirtless and ripped.

Abercrombie has set the standard for the clothing standard of cool by telling us to buy their clothes so we can get some ass, if you'll pardon the expression. I abhor A&F although they have taken a step in the right direction by cancelling their porn clothing catalogue (ironic? I think so.) But I still refuse to buy from them because I am so damn sick of seeing EVERY pair of pants and every shirt adorned with the letters "A&F".

I was at the mall the other day with my mom (shut up!) and she ran into a friend who had a kid who could NOT have been past 5th grade. Gelled hair (that bothers me so much. I usually don't mind people expressing themselves, but they aren't expressing themselves. They are expressing what A&F tells them to), Abercrombie shirt (Abercrombie is the children's store. When you get old enought you get to see "& Fitch". Little ones can't handle the extra 2 syllables.), Abercrombie pants. This saddens me. When I was in 5th grade, I didn't own any "cool" clothing, didn't gel my hair (still don't), and certainly was not concerned with getting anything from the fair sex.

As paladin was saying earlier about older siblings, another reason these little kids have entered the cool class is that they see their older siblings wearing these clothes and little kids love to mimic NOTHING more than they do their siblings. They also pick up on their older sibling's habbits of speech. My sister last year in the 4th grade had to put up with the A&F kids and and she often brought home tails of them dropping the f-bomb and other vulgarities. In the same year, she received a phone call late at night. My parent's picked up the phone at the same time she did. My parents won't even tell ME what was said on the phone, it was so vulgar.

OK, I may have gone off a slight tangent, but I think that Their speech is just as important to the "cool factor". I've added my 2 cents. Actually, since this is my longest post ever, its a good $1.38. I'm done for now.

EDIT: It has recently come to my attention (thank you mouse) that Hollister is owned by A&F. This really doesn't change my argument much, but I thought you might like to know.  

[Bill Aurion]

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
While I was eating I saw a girl that looked about 12 years old (and was really cute, but I can say that because I'm 15 ).

Ouch, I feel a shot towards me...

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Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
I blame the downfall of society, the trashification of the media and the disappearance of family values.

My sentiments exactly...

[mouse_clicker]

It's interesting, Berny, that you mention both Abercrombie and Fitch and Hollister, since A&B owns Hollister.

In any case, I think you raise a very good point, Berny, although it's not Abercrombie and Fitch alone that is perpetuating such a stereotype that so many kids follow. It's also not A&F's fault that so many people shop there, although it appears they know what kind of power they wield. I still think A&F appeals to younger people for a reason, though- it all goes back to the sheep following the leader of the week I mentioned in my first post. A&F offers a template that kids will invariably follow- it's the younger kids that take such a bold stand against it that really surprise me. That kind of self awareness, that desire to go down your own both, generally doesn't develop until later, which is really the whole point of this ordeal, I guess. Social classes emerge when people get tired of modeling themselves after someone else and branch off from the main group, and from what I remember of 6th grade, most people were perfectly content in trailing in the wake of others.

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Ouch, I feel a shot towards me...

Not directly, no. I actually made the comment to a friend of mine, who's 18. He said where he comes from that's called statutory rape, and I reminded him that I was only 15.    

[KnowsNothing]

I will never wear an Abercrombie related piece of clothing as long as I live - unless payed a ridiculous amount of money to do it.  And then there's still a large chance that I'll refuse.  I hate Abercrombie (and fitch or anything similar to them)

EDIT: Haha @ Bill.  It's also okay for me to think they're cute, since, well,  I'm the same age.  Bill though.........watch out for him.  

[Jale]

Social classes in school are strange because:

At School:
Cool kids (bad grades)
Medium-popular kids (average grades)
geeks (good grades)

But at work
geeks (good job)
M-p kids (pretty good job)
Cool kids (rubbish job)

Therefore the whole class system gets turned on its head.

[Termin8Anakin]

Being the cool kid AND getting good grades is like the ultimate nightmare for the pure geek. Not only can they get a sh*tload of girls to go out with them, they can can kick your ass in the Maths test too. And thats a bother.
And something I've seen all too often.

I've noticed that when I was at school, there was not really any 'social class' of sorts. We were all friends, but we didn't sit together in one huge group
In my group alone, we are in our little subgroups.
So we're all friends, we just don't go out together or anything.

And have you noticed all the schools that complain about having school uniforms? You don't get that here in Australia, but it's mostly the girls that complain. I, for one, love the school uniform, as do nearly everyone I know. Why? It lets you go to school without having to think about what to wear. Nearly all girls these days look like sluts when they go out anyway, so why the hell would they wanna look like one when they go to school. It would just encouarge more rebellionism (whatever ) and split everyone up further just cause they don't dress according to the fashions of the time. I don't have that much to wear to begin with, so thank God.

At Uni, we of course don't have uniforms, and we dress however we want, cause we are passed the point where looks and trends matter, and frankly it's just stupid to tease someone who dresses 'weird'. Not all of us have clothes for every single day anyway, and I see all the hot girls wearing the same thing every week.
So school is perhaps the start of the dirty, rotton consumerist bastard/bitch in all of us.

When I was in primary school I never had trendy clothes or anything, just what mum bought me. And I never out gel in my hair until Year 12 when my old hair style just didn't look as good as it used to (it went all boofy).
My cousin who is in 6th grade now is almost the same, but he has 'some' good-looking clothes and my older female cousins say he looks like a stud when/if he gels his hair. They watch too much Queer Eye.
It's actually come to the point he seems to dress 'better' than me, and that disturbs me a lot.
My other younger cousin, his sister who's in Year 3, isn't slutty or anything, but she has clothes that are skin-tight, and she's been on a 'date' already. It may be cute, but the fact that my older cousins keep encouraging her makes it more obvious that they 'enforce' the new consmerist lifestyle on them.

And that sickens me to no end.

[mouse_clicker]

I am vehemently against school uniforms- I think it rips a kid's freedom of speech away under the guise that it will remove any social barriers, but what it's really doing is making everyone a facelsss facsimile of eachother. I may not like how many people wear clothes from Abercrombie and Fitch, but it's their choice and I'll fight for their right to make it despite the fact I disagree with it. I'm glad no school I've ever been to has forced me to wear a uniform.  

That's just me, though.

[ThePerm]

as far as grades go i like to compare myself to Shikamaru...i never had great grades...but too many people were copying off me it was hard to be perfect.

[Ocarina Blue]

Uniforms are a crucial tool for keeping kids in line. During mufti days kids will have terrible behavior. As children or their guardians sign a contract upon enrolling in a school, the child has an obligation to abide by the contract an wear a uniform; there is no breach of [international] rights -- if you don't want to wear a uniform, you must enroll in another school. Schools that are convenienced by it would argue that having their children not wear uniforms would breach the rights of other pupils, manifested in the general decline in the standard of behavior. Not that I like a uniform or anything, but that's what I understand to be the underlying philosophy behind uniforms.

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...but what it's really doing is making everyone a faceless facsimile of eachother.

Nonsense, uniforms merely remove the medium of clothes as being one of expression. It's not like the expression is put to good use anyway - letting kids wear what they want is like giving a platoon of painters canvas, paint, and brushes only to see them all painting the same thing. The medium is abused. Nobody in uniform's going to get teased or spat-on by other kids because they wear geeky clothes. Even if many don't like them, they offer advantages many are unwilling to percieve.

I see your use of 'faceless' as rather ironic; clothes offer a rather easy - and superficial - method of judging a character, even if only on a subconscious level. Faces, on the other hand, offer information regarding general health, general temperment, and most importantly: an individual's genetic background.

[mouse_clicker]

How would having uniforms make anyone easier to handle? If my school made us wear uniforms, I wouldn't, and I know many others that would join me. Mandatory uniforms only causes new problems. Making everyone look the same isn't going to solve a damned thing and everyone knows it.

And why should the ability to express yourself be removed simply because you think some people don't use it as they should be? Did you read what I said? I may not agree with what they wear and for what reasons but it's there right to wear it and it would not only be immoral but completely pointless to restrict that right to such a degree as forcing everyone to wear the same thing. Clothes ARE a very important method of self expression- taking it away isn't turning everyone into a robot, no, and if you want to debate semantics, we can- it's the principle of the matter, that a school would actually intervene in a kid's right to wear what he wants simply because it will supposedly lessen how left out  or alienated some people are. They think that making everyone look the same will tear down social barriers, which is complete crap. Should be encouraging kids to express ourself, not forcing them not to. Schools should be teaching us that everyone is different and we should embrace that instead of slapping one image on everyone. It may be easier but it's certainly the worse option. I find it funny that you point to the face in particular as an indication of genetic backround, when the idea that school uniforms operates on would be similar to making everyone the same genetic backround simply to get around our differences- it would be like making black people white instead of teaching people that racism is wrong. The act in of itself isn't a huge deal, no, but like I said, it's the principle of the matter.  

In any case, we're getting sidetracked from the actual discussion at hand.

[Ocarina Blue]

I can vouch from personal experience that kids will generally behave calmer when in uniform. I've seen it myself and I know many teachers in my area actually make sure they have classes of little importance during mufti days. Once again, from my personal experience, uniform does not enforce some sort of hive-mind upon children, it only lowers the level of extremely bad behavior. Not all schools use or claim to use uniforms predominately as a tool for destroying social barriers.

First of all here, I did read your post. Secondly, opinion is universal within an individual; dismissing something because 'my opinion' differs from that of yours and/or other is of no logical argumentative use. Lastly, my personal opinion on the issue would fall vaguely in line with yours, I outlined only my perceived reasons that schools use uniforms - ones that I believed to be in some way related to your post.

I outlined the counter points to most of your other arguments in my last post, or you outlined them yourself, I think.

You seem to be mildly upset - sorry if I was too blunt or something, I am tired and mildly fatigued. No offense was/is intended

[mouse_clicker]

I'm actually not upset at all, I just write better when I'm worked up. It has nothing to do with you.

Even if uniforms make kids calmer, though (I'm really having a hard time believing this), is that really worth the cost of having a tool of self expression taken away? Do we really want kids watered down, as if we're inducing them with a sedative? Again, isn't that just a quick fix to a larger problem? Shouldn't we be trying to teach kids not to act violently or badly by explaining the negatives of such an action, instead of artifically reproducing the effect by forcing them all to look alike? Like I've said, the act in of itself isn't all that bad, but it's the principle of the matter, that schools would not only consider such a course of action, but would actually think it would make any difference at all.

[Bill Aurion]

I'm not a huge fan of school uniforms, but they do cut down on "delinquent" wear...My old high school had a horrible time trying to keep the dress code under control, and that's when I would ok the school uniform...

[Jale]

I find that there are three bonus points to having a school uniform and 3 main down points:

Good Points
1. You dont get teased for dressing wierd
2. There are plenty of pockets
3. Girls are more willing to take their clothes off

Bad Points
1. You all look stupid
2. You can't express yourself through your clothes
3. It is more efficient than a neon "kick me" sign at attracting townies.

People from my school are always getting attacked by townies just because of ur uniform. My friend Neb was confrontyed by some on the Common

Townie: Ya wanna take this outside mush?
Neb looks around the park....
Neb: We are outside.
Townie: Oh ya fink ya cleverer than me...

etc

Damn uniforms

[KnowsNothing]

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3. Girls are more willing to take their clothes off

We need school uniforms.  Seriously.

But to add to the good points, you don't have to choose what clothes to wear in the morning (which can be a huge thing for some) and you'll probably save money on clothes since you only need different clothes for days when you're not in school.

And no, not all people look stupid in uniforms.  Take......well........ALL JAPANESE GIRLS (*ahem)  (and this imaginary girl in my head that is HOT.  I've named her "Becca").  But really, I sometimes think I look better dressed up.

"Gimme your lunch money, punk!"
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