Topic: "The Trouble With Nintendo"

[Mumei]

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Also, Mouse, while I respect Nintendo for how long they've been around, please note that that quaterly loss was a pretty recent fiscal quarter (most recent if I'm not mistaken) meaning there is a problem now, as opposed to 15- 20 years ago when they ran the market uncontested. Anyone can fail and as you sacastically mentioned with Mumei, seniority has no barring.

The quarterly loss took place in the first quarter of 2003.  They went on to earn about $298 million dollars, and expected to earn well over $550 million.  The only reason they didn't was because they had massive currency related losses due to the yen's surge against the dollar.  The previous year, they had earned about $640 million.  This year, they expect to earn about $630 million.

How much did they lose in that one quarter?  About $28 million.  And that took place a little more than a year ago.  I think they've recovered fine and that loss was a bit of a wake-up call.

Oh and my comment had nothing to do with seniority, and I already explained what I had meant by it.

[Deguello]

"One Sony executive said that Nintendo gets the kids when they are 5 and they get them when they are 12, or something to that effect."

Quote Nazi!  You are not quoting a Sony exec.  You are quoting Peter Moore, as a MS exec, flapping his gums in a cheap shot.

And Ian I would agree that it is the general gaming populace's opinion that Nintendo is "kiddy," but the problem is that the general gaming populace hasn't been heard since 1995.  Ever since Forums and message boards popped up where people parrot things they heard from certain loathesome individuals both on- and off-line, the happy constructive general gaming populace's was replaced with people with heavy interest yet low appreciation for videogames bitching about what is wrong with them all the time.

But that wasn't really my point.  My point goes to the ludicrous idea of Nintendo's "image problem."  They have had this negative image stuck to the since they started in this damn business.  It is NOT Nintendo's fault.  And them trying to fix it would ba an artificial change that in reality isn't needed or even called for, except by exectuives of OTHER companies.

Such an artificial change would be reminiscient of what happened to Nickelodeon.  It used to be a kid's network (actual kids network, they thought of themselves that way) that kids loved and certain teenagers loved and most of those had fond memories of when they became adults.  Now they "MTV'd" it up, making it all hip and cool and aimed at a more aged market than kids 3-12.  And they've ruined it.  Sure it might be more popular, but everybody who used to watch Nickelodeon when they were 11 (i.e. everybody, including me) is just totally repulsed by this new network facade.  This wasn't really even called for.  They were doing just fine.  Why the change?

And if you WANT Nintendo to artificially change the "image" that they DO NOT have a problem with, then I will hunt you down, grill you and feed you to a pack of gophers.  Because you will have destroyed something beautiful under the false pretense of making it better.

[mouse_clicker]

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Quote Nazi! You are not quoting a Sony exec. You are quoting Peter Moore, as a MS exec, flapping his gums in a cheap shot.

Peter Moore, didn't he used to work at Sega? Hmmmmm......  

[Deguello]

Yeah, until he royally screwed up Sega of America.  Chief among his many mistakes was taking EA and Madden head-on, which cost Sega of America wads of cash and ended with zero results.  So he either resigned or got booted, to which then Microsoft picked him up because I dunno, failure builds character, and whatnot.  And there he is today, saying Nintendo is kiddy with the rest of them, as if he were some unique snowflake.

[Ian Sane]

"Three, they'd turn it into a Mario spinoff."

Well that would their own fault wouldn't it.

"And if you WANT Nintendo to artificially change the 'image' that they DO NOT have a problem with, then I will hunt you down, grill you and feed you to a pack of gophers. Because you will have destroyed something beautiful under the false pretense of making it better."

Well I doubt losing sales because of public misperception is something they "do not have a problem with".  You're acting like I'm suggesting a complete overhaul of the way Nintendo makes games.  I'm suggesting a few changes that aren't really changes anyway.  Nintendo HAS made mature games like Perfect Dark and Eternal Darkness and they were great.  They've made RPGs in the past that turned out great.  They even made a fighting game with Killer Instinct.  These examples fit within Nintendo's lineup perfectly.  Ensuring that lineup gaps are filled and that all demographics are covered is not going to ruin Nintendo.

Plus a lot of the "image correction" would be with marketing which for us fans wouldn't change anything.  Nintendo already is about quality so trying to create a public image of "quality" is not going to ruin Nintendo or even really change anything.  Some of you act that if Nintendo didn't make purple the main colour or had decent ads or made a seperate magazine that wasn't written for two year olds and had demo discs that somehow they wouldn't be Nintendo.  Here's a wake-up call:  today's Nintendo is hardly even the incredibly competent on-the-ball industry leading company they were during the NES and SNES years.  If you think they're doing everything peachy now you're a fan of a different Nintendo anyway.

[The Omen]

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And frankly, they need to attract new people. Nintendo sold about 45 million Nintendo 64s, if I recall correctly - someone correct me if I'm wrong on this. And they've sold about 15 or 16 million Gamecubes so far. They hope to sell an additional 20 million, brining the total to 35 or 36 million. A loss of about 9 or 10 million buyers is nothing to scoff at, and it is important that they get people back. You say they are still profiting? Imagine how much they would profit if they had an additional 10 million people buying their console

Nope.
You forget that the market is cut 3 (MS,SONY,NIN) Last gen. was PSX and N64.  So in comparison, they're doing at least as well as last gen.

[Mumei]

... Don't get so worked up about me not remembering exactly who said the quote.  I was going off memory and I couldn't remember who had said it or where they worked.

[mouse_clicker]

He was joking, Mumei. Don't take anyone too seriously on this board, not even me. I may seem incredibly pissed at times, but I probably had a big grin on my face while typing it.

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Here's a wake-up call: today's Nintendo is hardly even the incredibly competent on-the-ball industry leading company they were during the NES and SNES years. If you think they're doing everything peachy now you're a fan of a different Nintendo anyway.

Who the hell cares? You've got some priority issues, Ian. I'm a fan of Nintendo's GAMES- you know, the things gamers play? Nintendo's philosophy towards games is no different than when they entered this business- THAT'S the Nintendo I'm a fan of and THAT Nintendo hasn't changed at all.  

[Deguello]

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Well I doubt losing sales because of public misperception is something they "do not have a problem with".

I fail to see that as a problem with Nintendo's image.  I see that as a problem with public misperception.  They DO have a problem with that, but changing their "image" around will accomplish nothing because...

Image is press.  I'll say it again because it bears repeating.  Image is press.  It is not console color.  It is not demo discs.  It is definitely not ads.  It is not Nintendo's magazine, although magazines are a key factor to image, some of them being the press.  (Sidetrack:  Nintendo Power doesn't say anything different from XBN, OXM, PSM, and OPM.  Which begs the question, which is worse?  A magazine wholly owned by a company going "Go Company GO?"  Or a magazine not owned by a company going "Go Company GO?")  Hell there wasn't even an image to speak of until around 1994 or so.  And all the things the press ran about video games were usually things like "Do your kids not get enough exercize?" and "Are videogames turning our children into viloent monsters?" that demonized games in the process.  oh yeah and there were those Senate hearings

Yet when Sony and later Microsoft entered the market with much fanfare, that fanfare came from the press, and some of it probably paid for if you catch my drift.  (I mean Sony has no compunctions with inventing a human being to give their movies good reviews) And I'm usually sure Nintendo doesn't play that kind of press game.  (It would surprise me if they did, and even so, they obviously aren't doing it now, because no usual press firm is just glowing with love over Nintendo nowadays.)  The press is what makes image, and so Sony and Microsoft get great images, one of whom likes to invents human critics and use employees as people "who just saw A Knight's Tale and it was like totally awesome," and the other... well MSNBC.

Hell, if you read what the press had to say about Microsoft and the Xbox in June 2001, I bet you'd do a double-take.  The thing of 2k1's E3 was the GameCube, everybody loved it, while the Xbox had an absolutely terrible showing, with Halo being a glitchy mess.  You would think that the Gamecube would be hot stuff now.  But around August 2k1, it was as if the press (this includes various magazines) did a complete 180 and starts the Cube bashing by calling it a purple kid's toy lunchbox that will have fluffy super funtime games whereas the Xbox is a man's console that has mature games worth playing because mature people play mature games like Halo.  Oh and that the Xbox is 100% All American America.   And I think I know how Microsoft was able to to pull that one off, if you catch my drift again.  By sheer force of press and repetition Nintendo's public perception went down the tubes.  Foolish Nintendo.  They thought all you had to do was have great games.  And I think that perception is something that cannot be fixed with just a demo disc.  They would have to start playing those press games, if you again catch my drift.  And I don't think they can.  And if they can, I don't think they do.  And if they do, I don't think they outbid MS and Sony for Magazine "features."

Cripes this crap I just talked about is happeneing again right now.  With the DS and the PSP.  You have probably seen the magazines and the press going googoo over this bloated piece of machinery even AS bad press is getting released about it.  We never hear about that OR the DS, even though more than twice is known about the DS than the PSP.  It's geeting good press and a good image despite that it is sounding very bad right now.  And I think I know how thats happening too, if you yet again cacth my drift.  And you know... Image is press.

tl;dr  Nintendo doesn't have a problem with their image.  Their image is fine.  They have a problem with public misperception, largely brought upon by the mainstream press.  Which Deguello heavy-handedly implied that Nintendo's competitors do dirty tricks involving lots of money to get favorable press, which then leads to a good image.

[Chongman]

i thought that was a nice read

[darknight06]

I must say, that was perfectly stated.  Couldn't have said it better.

[Mumei]

I don't believe Nintendo's image is perfectly fine.  I know people my age who don't read the magazines at all; they just buy the games that they think are cool.  They look at a Gamecube and think that it looks like a little kid's toy.  They look at the games for it, and they don't see the third-party games that they want.  They think that GCN has no good games, or at least not the games that they think are good.  Which is all completely untrue.  But that is the way they see it, and it has nothing to do with the press because they aren't out there reading it.  Nintendo is often seen as a younger kid's company by little kids (eg. 12 to 14).  It is never a good thing when what appears to be Nintendo's target audience says that Nintendo is for babies.  You can't blame all of Nintendo's problems on the press.  When Nintendo games come out, they fawn over them in most cases.

So yes, it is public misperception, but it is partly caused by just apathy from the customer; not reading the magazines or online articles at all and only looking at the way that the console looks.

[Chongman]

now I believe you're being too naive

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When Nintendo games come out, they fawn over them in most cases.

actually, no, it seems like that really hasn't happened much this gen. i dont know if that's a personal opinionated statement or fact, but from my perspective, that just doesn't seem true.

[Mumei]

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Originally posted by: Chongman
now I believe you're being too naive

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When Nintendo games come out, they fawn over them in most cases.

actually, no, it seems like that really hasn't happened much this gen. i dont know if that's a personal opinionated statement or fact, but from my perspective, that just doesn't seem true.

It may be the places I read reviews at then... I usually look at Gamerankings.com and read several reviews... For Nintendo's biggest games (my opinion), Zelda, Mario, and Metroid, they have gotten almost universally good scores.  Before the games come out, everyone ****es and whines about them, but after, most places I see score them highly.  Most magazines that I read complained about TWW's graphics, yet what is the average score given for that game?  95.0%.

And they complained about Metroid Prime "messing up" the series by being in the first person perspective.  What happens when it comes out?  The average score given ends up being 96.0%.

They complain and act like Nintendo games are going to be horrible before they come out, but most of the time they are scored highly, even if the review does have complaints in it.  As for a few of Nintendo's other games (including second-party games), here is how they fared:

1080 Avalanche - 75.4%
Animal Crossing - 88.5%
Custom Robo - 67.6%
Donkey Konga - 75.0%
Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem - 90.0%
Kirby's Air Ride - 63.9%
Luigi's Mansion - 79.9%
Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour - 81.9%
Mario Kart: Double Dash!! - 87.2%
Mario Party 4 - 72.0%
Mario Party 5 - 71.0%
Metroid Prime - 96.0%
Pac-Man vs. - 80.9%
Pikmin - 86.5%
Pokemon Channel - 57.2% (can you blame them >_>)
Pokemon Colosseum - 77.2%
Star Fox Adventures - 81.2%
Super Mario Sunshine - 92.1%
Super Smash Bros. Melee - 90.7%
The Legend of Zelda Collector's Edition - 93.2%
The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventure - 87.2%
The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker - 95.0%
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time - 91.2% (Preorder Bonus Disk)
Wario World - 71.4%
WarioWare Inc.: Mega Party Game$ - 78.6%
Wave Race: Blue Storm - 82.0%

I left a few games out, such as F-Zero GX, because they were not actually made by Nintendo or a second-party... Anyway, the average score for Nintendo games is about 81.26%.  I don't see how Nintendo games are reviewed poorly.

[Ian Sane]

Good arguement Deguello.  You're right the press is the bigger issue.  Still that doesn't mean Nintendo couldn't try a little harder.  No one would be able to call the Cube a purple lunch box if they didn't make it look like a purple lunch box in the first place.  I guess what Nintendo should do is give their critics less to criticize.  People jump all over little stuff like smaller memory cards or the non-traditional controllers.  Those are issues of course but usually they're made out to be bigger than they are.  Nintendo should watch for stuff like that.  They should be incredibly competent.  That way there's less fuel for the haters.

I think with the DS they have done nearly every right so far.  Sure the PSP is getting some rather blatant favouritism but the DS bashing is small and usually sounds much weaker than anything said about the Cube.  The worst bash I read on the DS is that it has an ugly design.  That's pretty minor and if that's the best they can come up with Nintendo did it right.  If they can do something similar with the Revolution, where critics have to look really hard for things to complain about, then that will improve their public perception.  They'll still be fighting an uphill battle but they'll have made it easier for themselves.

[Mumei]

I think a lot of people are infatuated with the way the PSP looks and not much else >_>.  And people aren't even questioning what Sony said about battery times... It's a bit ridiculous.  

[Deguello]

"I left a few games out, such as F-Zero GX, because they were not actually made by Nintendo or a second-party... Anyway, the average score for Nintendo games is about 81.26%. I don't see how Nintendo games are reviewed poorly. "

Why did you include Donkey Konga then?  Or Wario World?

[Deguello]

"I guess what Nintendo should do is give their critics less to criticize."

And THAT I will agree with.

[Syl]

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Originally posted by: Deguello
"I left a few games out, such as F-Zero GX, because they were not actually made by Nintendo or a second-party... Anyway, the average score for Nintendo games is about 81.26%. I don't see how Nintendo games are reviewed poorly. "

Why did you include Donkey Konga then?  Or Wario World?

or the mario party's?  Those are all made by hudson.

[Mumei]

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Originally posted by: Deguello
"I left a few games out, such as F-Zero GX, because they were not actually made by Nintendo or a second-party... Anyway, the average score for Nintendo games is about 81.26%. I don't see how Nintendo games are reviewed poorly. "

Why did you include Donkey Konga then?  Or Wario World?

To be perfectly honest, I wasn't entirely sure about them.  I included them only because I wasn't 100% sure whether they were actually made by Ninty or a third-party.  Sorry >_<.  But... the point still stands; they are reviewed highly.

[Mario]

I like how the answer all along was PUPPIES, and a head that bobs up and down.

I know I touched upon non-gaming games somewhere in this giant xbox thread, did anyone else?

[vudu]

WTF.  Seriously.

Mods, can you set something up where a thread automatically locks after six months of inactivity?  We need to stop this mindless bumping.