Topic: "The Trouble With Nintendo"

[Berny]

Weren't we talking about Johnny's editiorial?

[Chongman]

hey guys, don't all jump on nemo just because he disagrees. Albeit, he hasn't always been the wisest pgc member but he still has a right to voice his opinion, though perhaps actualy putting up a legit argument instead of a broad statement might help, nemo.

btw, i did disagree with nemo and I think most media/gaming outlets are full of sewage waste, though not all

[Deguello]

I don't jump on nemo because he disagrees.  I jump on him because almost every post I see of his is flamebait.  I mean, maybe he does have a valid point for some of his incessant and grammatically-challenged rants, but when you repeat them over and over and OVER, any point he might have had gets lost in what seems to be an Eric Mattei-inspired attempt to get everybody riled up.  In short, it is attention-seeking behavior, and I think I am not alone in being tired of it.

[nemo_83]

"There seems to be a conflict between what Nintendo wants to do stylistically and what they must do to make their games appealing to older gamers, and thus become a serious contender in the console race."

That sentence says it all.  Nintendo is in need of an eye for marketability.  I'm not saying that I beieve that Metroid, Zelda, or Mario Sunshine were badly designed games.  I'm saying that Nintendo needs to focus their artistic expressions to more mainstreme desires; especially since they continually say that they must make their games easier at the cost of the hardcore fan so that they can attract mainstreme gamers.

Also in the article he mentions Rare, but fails to realize that Rare's worth had dwindled.

On another note I would like to say that I don't have enough time to worry about my gramatical correctness.  

[mouse_clicker]

If you had read my post, nemo, you would know that I don't want Nintendo making sacrifices simply to move into the mainstream. I don't want them pumping out games designed purely to get sales- I want them to sell on the fact that they're the best quality games out there.

And while you may not have to worry about grammatical correctness, we do since we're the ones that have to try and decipher what you're saying. I think no less of one's opinion for such superficial reasons, but if you're too busy to fix a few grammatical and spelling errors, you really shouldn't be posting on a message board at all.

[___nonjagged___]

Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
Since Johnny just wrote a new editorial of his own, I thought mine might get some more discussion regarding Johnny's new ideas. I personally think he misjudged a lot of the things he talked about, and it's getting on my nerves how everyone suddenly thinks they know what the problem is and how to fix it.

I couldnt find the talkback thread on Johnny's topic so Im back in this thread. Well until Bloodyworth's right to lock the thread and bans me or eg. Agent7 etc because of extreme views (hehe).

Here is my attempt at how Nintendo can increase its market share next-gen without compramising its phylosophy of being a gaming-only entertainment entity:

Nintendo would never, not in a billion years even, endorse mindless, monotonous, shoot-to-kill, realistic FPS genres [especially the generic ones that promote US army/marines etc] or even 3rd Person perspective shooters like eg. US Navy Seals.
Sure Nintendo did once endorce Goldeneye 007 where the game reached a pinaccle for its genre on console platforms, though Nintendo has moved on.
Nintendo being the 'animal rights' activists that they are have moved on from Duck Hunt also.
PS: We dont think Mallary from Animal Crossing [aka Animal Forrest] would have been impressed with Duck Hunt on NES.

Nintendo if it did endorce a FPS it would have to be creative or unique as apposed to aggressive or mindless shoot-to-kill derivatives, or US soldiers brainwashing propaganda, thwarting terrorists etc.
M$'s public relations announcing M$ provided Xcox consoles for the Iraq invading US forces while on their break was a genuine disgrace to the console gaming industry.
Note however that not one US journalist/media raised a whimper of an issue about the disgraceful act. Is it because the US journalists/media are imploying all their time and desperate energy to assassinate Nintendo's console orientated image or lack of support for bankrupt US development houses?
Is it against the console 'rule of thumb' laws to not favor FPS genres or ported PC franchises? Is it blasphemy to request non-generic, innovative, creative console gaming experiences? Instead of endless PC-ported gimmicky multiplayer fragging games, [for dumbed-down gamers?].
Also note that the RE franchise and soon to be Killer 7 franchise pretty much covers the violent, shoot-to-kill genre for Nintendo platforms.
Note the Metroid franchise is more about a tranquil investigative experience over brain-dead, shoot-to-kill violence.
Besides, even so, violent offline multiplayer games only create tension between the party of players whereas 'its good to play together with faceless friends' doesnt quite create negative tension because theyre not even in the same room.
In general Online gaming does not revolve around creative or artistic titles eg. like the speculated Geist. Online gaming revolves around headless-chickens being fragged down and then respawned in front of a player, over and over and over [which can be fun but hey in the view of others so are "kiddie" games fun].

No one ever really played Dues Ex multiplayer Online? whereas the single player mode was widely regarded as the greatest PC game ever, even by yours truly.
Since Nintendo is more interested in the Arts rather than in the Sports [its possible that Nintendo also wants users to immerse themselves in a constructive alternative imagination though not deny users the opportunity for real-life physical activity to neglect outdoors altogether by becoming couch-potato quarterbacks with the other faceless apponents who never stretch outdoors and deplete their body of required daily exercize]. Im sure consoles of the future will "by-pass" retail shops altogether but thats another topic for a future date. [Imagine
ordering your PS4 console through your Online PS3 console and not even having to pick up a phone let alone visit the local mall etc].

True, NoA want to tap into the Sports market which is popular and lucrative in USA, however Konami, EA and Sega have aligned to exclusive platforms, so theres not much of a quality choice left, especially when Nintendo is only interested in quality franchises by quality/proven publishes.
Way too much funds would need to be invested into the remaining non-exclusive Sports franchises from eg. Midway. Even so, Viacom and M$ have already invested into Midway to prevent Midway from officially being listed as bankrupt and M$ could potentially buyout whatever franchises Midway keep afloat.

Regardless, even if Nintendo was hypathetically Online, its doubtful it would have made any difference whatsoever with the decisions that Konami, EA and Sega made as they already where aligned to specific platforms and are just continuing the relationship.
We all saw how Left Field's basketball franchise turned out, to say that Nintendo did not at least try filling in some areas of Sports genre is ignorance.

We are all well aware Nintendo will not spread its ass cheeks to the Telecommunication "monthly subscriptions" Industry, or the intentionally-cracked CD-ROM or DVD Consortiums, and Nintendo will not officially have its console-only platforms piggy-backed with PC systems to operate with routers etc. Nintendo systems are standalone consoles, not set-top-boxes with USB or Bluetooth ports or Mainstream Data formats. Nintendo systems are proprietory and hence will always have a smaller userbase, regardless of loyalty. When Nintendo design [quite possibly the N5] a console system which can operate Online without routers or monthly subscriptions to ISPs and Closed Server Providers, then Nintendo will gladly officially endorce Online gaming and to claim [cube.ign.com] that Nintendo is unsure of its future is pure arrogant short-sightedness. As 3D0 proved it easy to built a set-top-box platform [although at the time one must admit that competition did assasinate 3D0's image for doing so] and as Sega proved it is easy to take gaming Online, however Nintendo's stance is that they wont rush in, to endorce Online gaming unless there is a technology in place which provides gaming free of monthly subscriptions and free of routers and PC connections. The N5 may actually show us the future of Nintendo. If there is an official endorcing of Online gaming you know that Nintendo found a way to bypass all the middleware and middlemen. The implementation of 802.11 wireless multiplayer gaming for the Nintendo DS is a sample of Nintendo investigating options for the good of gamers.

Thats the difference between Nintendo's platforms and whatever newbie hardware platform manufacturers enter the market, paying liscencing fees for all sorts of non-proprietory components or technologies which make up the set-top-box multi-media media units that offer services to multitude markets, pretending to be one gaming-only market strictly in competiton with Nintendo.
This generation Nintendo's apposing console manufacturers where eg. pushing public campaigns that 'Nintendo is a toy company not willing to embrace the digital age'. [It was clearly evident that this comment was a cry for frustration by M$, as Nintendo at the time invested more into its shares and its future, though now that the public are aware that the Nintendo DS platform is supporting 802.11-based proprietary protocol for wireless communication that is
for free and not monthly subscription based, we can all see why the 'crybaby corporations' such as M$ or Nokia are frustrated at Nintendo being a company for 'the people' and not for the corporates]. This generation Nintendo was persecuted for not having DVD playback and because the simple GCN aesthetics where not black enough for mainstream markets. [Geeze Sega launched with half a dozen black colored consoles, even the DreamCast launched as a new color because Sega overdid black, and being that Nintendo is not a 'newbie' to the industry like the clueless competition, Nintendo wanted to not be generic and express itself as being colorful]. If you the mainstream gamer feel intimidated by a case color other than black, by all means dont buy the colorful console.

Next generation Nintendo will be persecuted for not having DVD burning hardware complemented with Digital Video Editing software. Mind you that M$'s generic cookie-cut templates Digital Video Editing software is no where near enough as advanced as $ony's
SonicFoundry Digital Video Editing software [which will first make its appearance in the PSX Server]. Yes $ony took out a leaf of M$'s book and $ony acquired SonicFoundry in 2003.
Next generation Nintendo's apposing console manufacturers who once jelously persecuted Nintendo will copy Nintendo's idea of fun color hardware aethetics and faceplates by designing consoles which take snap-on faceplates like that of the mobile phone industry and the new Dell laptops.
Nintendo will never ever gain any market share back because whatever innovation Nintendo come up with, the competition generally just hacks it off and incorporates it at a later date.

Now M$ have ATI, IBM and no HDD for their next-gen console. All thats left is a generic wireless controller called WaiveEagle and M$ along with Ken Lobbs [who had intimate knowledge of Nintendo hardware schematics] has pretty much cloned Nintendo's decades of console knowledge & experience. [Unlike when Apple Computers at one stage in the past willingly offered 3rd
Party vendors to clone Apple hardware/architecture rebranded, in the way IBM did with compatible PCs].
Nintendo will never ever gain any market share back because you cant compete against multi-media set-top-boxes which offer diverse services and then pretend that all these services are being used by gaming-only markets. Its not that Nintendo's markets are getting smaller either. Its the competing platforms which are fighting to include every single technology within their set-top-boxes which inturn broadens
the multiple market opportunity.

In responce to EA @ DICE 2004:
...Nintendo failed to have major first-party titles available at the launch of the GCN and added: "I'm sure it's rethinking that after GameCube."
EA neglecting to ponder whether Nintendo had to step up the launch date of the GCN to coincide with certain USA based competition hence the lack of 1st parties [not to mention the platform which
EA favorably endorces had a mediocre lineup of launch titles anyway that looked like PSone titles so we dont know what hes smoking regarding launch lineups] and that considering Nintendo had invested in a proprietory format console which is still uncracked today naturally it took time [as apposed to $ony which simply opted for mainstream DVD format, a format which was already out on the market and easier to launch quicker. No idea whats M$'s excuse for why they missed the boat and took so long to launch? especially when the internal setup is basically a PC pretending to be an efficient Nintendo console].

In responce to EA @ DICE 2004:
...Nintendo's decision to emphasize a cheaper price over "important features" with its GameCube console. "It may be rethinking that [philosophy] after GameCube."
EA is looking at it from their perspective. PSX consoles are pirate friendly. User pays overpriced hardware launch prices but throughout the platform's lifespan the user then saves on software when the PS platforms get cracked within months.
Nintendo users pay considerable less for hardware because its gaming-only-interactive based and will be so for many centuries to come, but users dont save on software prices because software format isnt cracked.
Nintendo out of courtesy [knowing that user will have to pay retail prices for software instead of asian black-market prices] to keep hardware price as low as possible for all users of all creed to afford and there is no onus on the user to save up huge amounts for hardware.
Note the Nintendo DS will make mockery of the N-Gayge launch price.

Its really is amazing how a so-called industry veteran cannot interpret simple decisions or reasons by Nintendo.

Nintendo generally polish their games rather than rush out like Sony's philosophy of constantly turnover rehashes. Capcom now even testify to hate Sony's phylosophy of corporate turnover over creative innovation, and as we can all see EA's identi-kit followups to its majority of its franchises suits $ony's platforms really well.
In the past, Nintendo didnt like $ony's business strategy proposals which where more related to $$$ turnover, than passion to entertain and passion to polish.
Along with other factors such as slow loading, pirate friendly CD-ROM formats and $ony charging the license fee for the format of the CD-ROM component etc. Nintendo opted for concetrating with the gaming-only approach.

The 128bit generation saw Nintendo even build a more efficient and easier to develop for console [even more efficient/easy than the PSX which had erradicated the more dedicated Saturn way of developing] however generally speaking the average gamer only buys say 12 official non-counterfeit games per console generation.

Nintendo has usually half of that hypathetical number of titles covered which leaves the 2nd parties to fill any gaps. 3rd parties have generally in the past been incapable of competing against Nintendo 1st party or 2nd party teams for the most part of history therefore they tend to shy away from Nintendo platforms and flood the pirate friendly platforms with low development royalty fees and in some
cases wavered Online costs which goes a long way for those 3rd parties
struggling from going officially bankrupt.
When consoles have users that generally purchase 12 games during the lifespan of the console then it stands to reason that its more viable to have the console using a universal format which is easily cracked which quadruples the sales of units and distracts/tempts users into purchasing pirate copied software instead of authentic and legally sold software.

The general mainstream masses dont care for polished quality control, because they dont have the time to make comparisments. If they can get their hands on dozens of pirate games each month at 2% of their equivalent retail price, its a no-brainer choice for consumer. Yes, there are those blind debaters that will deny piracy is frevelant but honestly its extremely rare to find a teenager without a chipped console these days
and thats saying a lot, being that these days [compared to 2 decades ago], teenagers are the biggest markets in the console industry.

In my opinion:

Following the Next generation [thats 2 generations away]
Nintendo's apposing console manufacturers will continue jelously persecuting
Nintendo for not having a set-top-box where user can do all their banking or ordering software and having it either downloaded into the set-top-box or delivered to your door etc on and never have to leave the house, well temporarily only for checking their snail-mail box or the local convenience store. Well at least Nintendo is not a spyware company. Never was never will.
Its even possible that M$ will use their set-top-boxes in the future to substitute classrooms in isolated demographics. Dill Gates lookalikes or clones will be bias lecturing distorted American history to eg. isolated agricultural students through the Xcox onto the TV set.
Headsets will be used to communicate to lecturer. M$ will then claim it is superior because it has a better idea than $ony's eyetoy. ...And the media will continue persecuting Nintendo for not being a spyware company cloaked with gimmicks and gadgets, but a gaming-only company, free of servers that monitor its userbase habits.

No matter what, the scummy competition will always find an angle to publicly persecute Nintendo's gaming-only-interactive phylosophy, or just illegitimately attack Nintendo's projects. Soon after Nintendo announced they had researched a viable, non-pirate form of gaming service [called iQue] for the Chinese market, $ony jelously followed up and announced it will then launch the ps2 platform in China but without any research into modifying the console to be
pirate-proof and announcing LOL it is up to Chinese Authority to enforce control on the huge piracy issue in China. $ony, should change their name into $cummy corp, at all cost, with grudge against Nintendo's prosperity.

My only suggestion is for Nintendo to remain in the next-gen and for the following eternal-gens, a gaming-only company that doesnt give a hoot about FPS or Sports markets in USA but give a hoot about artistic/cultural software instead of luke-warm identi-kit rehash followups.
Sure Nintendo will always have a minority userbase but contrary to popular mainstream media belief Nintendo is not in the gaming industry for userbase figures.
Note, its sad that way too many fanboys have been conditioned into focusing on discussing on "how to challenge $ony's market share".
And Nintendo should release 2 forms of its console. Identical components on the inside, different case aesthetics on the outside [because there are newbie markets out there that buy consumeables on the grounds of their image status].

1) Mature pack called anything but "The Duke", possibly "The Emporer's Pack"
-a slightly higher priced than the alternative option
-Wireless controllers standard
-DS PLayer built-in, [GB carts with an adapter can be used in this port]
-SD card adaptor standard
-a proprietory port for a keyboard & mouse [for future interactive gaming software such as Mario Paint 2k5 which is based on user-friendly menus for easy generating character models, texturising models, and then being able to control models and interact with environments in realtime]
-expansion port for BB/Wi-fi/802.11 etc for any user who wants to also use their console as a Standalone Linux Webmin Server without having to have Nintendo consoles hooked up to Routers and PC platforms etc to operate. This can mean that this machine needs to be always-on if user wants their content to be accessed 24/7.
See the console is still a gaming-only console but when Online the hardware supports Linux and Mozilla straight out of the box. Users can simply store their personal web pages on Virtual Webspaces or where the consoles are the means of acting as Web Servers where the content is stored on the actual console. Nintendo users would never have to endure pop-ups again when they securely browse online, as they would have the option of a non-expensive internet browsing machine/Server/Game Console.
The Console will have a simplyfied emergency recovery button [simular to new IBM laptops] because naturally M$ fanboys would eternally find ways of sabataging/hacking Nintendo's Online userbase because the platform will not be on a Closed-Server. PS, LOL, M$ have admitted they are secretly checking all Xcox Live consoles if the HDD's have been modded.

2) Kiddie pack called "Junior Pack"
-Cheaper priced because is streamlined of internal components for Online/Server features. Expansion ports available for upgrade.
-DS Player built-in, [GB carts with an adapter can be used in this port]
-Wireless controller is not inbuilt and is not a packin but available seperate
-snap-on interchangable faceplates simular to mobile phones, new Dell
laptops.
-includes a free GBA or DS game [Console comes in a dozen different case colors and hundreds of Faceplates to chose from. This is most useful for LAN Parties when eg. boring black colored consoles all look the same, with the same boring massive logo].

[CaseyRyback]

Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
If you had read my post, nemo, you would know that I don't want Nintendo making sacrifices simply to move into the mainstream. I don't want them pumping out games designed purely to get sales- I want them to sell on the fact that they're the best quality games out there.

And while you may not have to worry about grammatical correctness, we do since we're the ones that have to try and decipher what you're saying. I think no less of one's opinion for such superficial reasons, but if you're too busy to fix a few grammatical and spelling errors, you really shouldn't be posting on a message board at all.

SEGA tried to only please its fans and look at the trouble they got in.

[DrZoidberg]

Quote
Originally posted by: ___nonjagged___

Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
Since Johnny just wrote a new editorial of his own, I thought mine might get some more discussion regarding Johnny's new ideas. I personally think he misjudged a lot of the things he talked about, and it's getting on my nerves how everyone suddenly thinks they know what the problem is and how to fix it.

I couldnt find the talkback thread on Johnny's topic so Im back in this thread. Well until Bloodyworth's right to lock the thread and bans me or eg. Agent7 etc because of extreme views (hehe).

Here is my attempt at how Nintendo can increase its market share next-gen without compramising its phylosophy of being a gaming-only entertainment entity:

Nintendo would never, not in a billion years even, endorse mindless, monotonous, shoot-to-kill, realistic FPS genres [especially the generic ones that promote US army/marines etc] or even 3rd Person perspective shooters like eg. US Navy Seals.
Sure Nintendo did once endorce Goldeneye 007 where the game reached a pinaccle for its genre on console platforms, though Nintendo has moved on.
Nintendo being the 'animal rights' activists that they are have moved on from Duck Hunt also.
PS: We dont think Mallary from Animal Crossing [aka Animal Forrest] would have been impressed with Duck Hunt on NES.

Nintendo if it did endorce a FPS it would have to be creative or unique as apposed to aggressive or mindless shoot-to-kill derivatives, or US soldiers brainwashing propaganda, thwarting terrorists etc.
M$'s public relations announcing M$ provided Xcox consoles for the Iraq invading US forces while on their break was a genuine disgrace to the console gaming industry.
Note however that not one US journalist/media raised a whimper of an issue about the disgraceful act. Is it because the US journalists/media are imploying all their time and desperate energy to assassinate Nintendo's console orientated image or lack of support for bankrupt US development houses?
Is it against the console 'rule of thumb' laws to not favor FPS genres or ported PC franchises? Is it blasphemy to request non-generic, innovative, creative console gaming experiences? Instead of endless PC-ported gimmicky multiplayer fragging games, [for dumbed-down gamers?].
Also note that the RE franchise and soon to be Killer 7 franchise pretty much covers the violent, shoot-to-kill genre for Nintendo platforms.
Note the Metroid franchise is more about a tranquil investigative experience over brain-dead, shoot-to-kill violence.
Besides, even so, violent offline multiplayer games only create tension between the party of players whereas 'its good to play together with faceless friends' doesnt quite create negative tension because theyre not even in the same room.
In general Online gaming does not revolve around creative or artistic titles eg. like the speculated Geist. Online gaming revolves around headless-chickens being fragged down and then respawned in front of a player, over and over and over [which can be fun but hey in the view of others so are "kiddie" games fun].

No one ever really played Dues Ex multiplayer Online? whereas the single player mode was widely regarded as the greatest PC game ever, even by yours truly.
Since Nintendo is more interested in the Arts rather than in the Sports [its possible that Nintendo also wants users to immerse themselves in a constructive alternative imagination though not deny users the opportunity for real-life physical activity to neglect outdoors altogether by becoming couch-potato quarterbacks with the other faceless apponents who never stretch outdoors and deplete their body of required daily exercize]. Im sure consoles of the future will "by-pass" retail shops altogether but thats another topic for a future date. [Imagine
ordering your PS4 console through your Online PS3 console and not even having to pick up a phone let alone visit the local mall etc].

True, NoA want to tap into the Sports market which is popular and lucrative in USA, however Konami, EA and Sega have aligned to exclusive platforms, so theres not much of a quality choice left, especially when Nintendo is only interested in quality franchises by quality/proven publishes.
Way too much funds would need to be invested into the remaining non-exclusive Sports franchises from eg. Midway. Even so, Viacom and M$ have already invested into Midway to prevent Midway from officially being listed as bankrupt and M$ could potentially buyout whatever franchises Midway keep afloat.

Regardless, even if Nintendo was hypathetically Online, its doubtful it would have made any difference whatsoever with the decisions that Konami, EA and Sega made as they already where aligned to specific platforms and are just continuing the relationship.
We all saw how Left Field's basketball franchise turned out, to say that Nintendo did not at least try filling in some areas of Sports genre is ignorance.

We are all well aware Nintendo will not spread its ass cheeks to the Telecommunication "monthly subscriptions" Industry, or the intentionally-cracked CD-ROM or DVD Consortiums, and Nintendo will not officially have its console-only platforms piggy-backed with PC systems to operate with routers etc. Nintendo systems are standalone consoles, not set-top-boxes with USB or Bluetooth ports or Mainstream Data formats. Nintendo systems are proprietory and hence will always have a smaller userbase, regardless of loyalty. When Nintendo design [quite possibly the N5] a console system which can operate Online without routers or monthly subscriptions to ISPs and Closed Server Providers, then Nintendo will gladly officially endorce Online gaming and to claim [cube.ign.com] that Nintendo is unsure of its future is pure arrogant short-sightedness. As 3D0 proved it easy to built a set-top-box platform [although at the time one must admit that competition did assasinate 3D0's image for doing so] and as Sega proved it is easy to take gaming Online, however Nintendo's stance is that they wont rush in, to endorce Online gaming unless there is a technology in place which provides gaming free of monthly subscriptions and free of routers and PC connections. The N5 may actually show us the future of Nintendo. If there is an official endorcing of Online gaming you know that Nintendo found a way to bypass all the middleware and middlemen. The implementation of 802.11 wireless multiplayer gaming for the Nintendo DS is a sample of Nintendo investigating options for the good of gamers.

Thats the difference between Nintendo's platforms and whatever newbie hardware platform manufacturers enter the market, paying liscencing fees for all sorts of non-proprietory components or technologies which make up the set-top-box multi-media media units that offer services to multitude markets, pretending to be one gaming-only market strictly in competiton with Nintendo.
This generation Nintendo's apposing console manufacturers where eg. pushing public campaigns that 'Nintendo is a toy company not willing to embrace the digital age'. [It was clearly evident that this comment was a cry for frustration by M$, as Nintendo at the time invested more into its shares and its future, though now that the public are aware that the Nintendo DS platform is supporting 802.11-based proprietary protocol for wireless communication that is
for free and not monthly subscription based, we can all see why the 'crybaby corporations' such as M$ or Nokia are frustrated at Nintendo being a company for 'the people' and not for the corporates]. This generation Nintendo was persecuted for not having DVD playback and because the simple GCN aesthetics where not black enough for mainstream markets. [Geeze Sega launched with half a dozen black colored consoles, even the DreamCast launched as a new color because Sega overdid black, and being that Nintendo is not a 'newbie' to the industry like the clueless competition, Nintendo wanted to not be generic and express itself as being colorful]. If you the mainstream gamer feel intimidated by a case color other than black, by all means dont buy the colorful console.

Next generation Nintendo will be persecuted for not having DVD burning hardware complemented with Digital Video Editing software. Mind you that M$'s generic cookie-cut templates Digital Video Editing software is no where near enough as advanced as $ony's
SonicFoundry Digital Video Editing software [which will first make its appearance in the PSX Server]. Yes $ony took out a leaf of M$'s book and $ony acquired SonicFoundry in 2003.
Next generation Nintendo's apposing console manufacturers who once jelously persecuted Nintendo will copy Nintendo's idea of fun color hardware aethetics and faceplates by designing consoles which take snap-on faceplates like that of the mobile phone industry and the new Dell laptops.
Nintendo will never ever gain any market share back because whatever innovation Nintendo come up with, the competition generally just hacks it off and incorporates it at a later date.

Now M$ have ATI, IBM and no HDD for their next-gen console. All thats left is a generic wireless controller called WaiveEagle and M$ along with Ken Lobbs [who had intimate knowledge of Nintendo hardware schematics] has pretty much cloned Nintendo's decades of console knowledge & experience. [Unlike when Apple Computers at one stage in the past willingly offered 3rd
Party vendors to clone Apple hardware/architecture rebranded, in the way IBM did with compatible PCs].
Nintendo will never ever gain any market share back because you cant compete against multi-media set-top-boxes which offer diverse services and then pretend that all these services are being used by gaming-only markets. Its not that Nintendo's markets are getting smaller either. Its the competing platforms which are fighting to include every single technology within their set-top-boxes which inturn broadens
the multiple market opportunity.

In responce to EA @ DICE 2004:
...Nintendo failed to have major first-party titles available at the launch of the GCN and added: "I'm sure it's rethinking that after GameCube."
EA neglecting to ponder whether Nintendo had to step up the launch date of the GCN to coincide with certain USA based competition hence the lack of 1st parties [not to mention the platform which
EA favorably endorces had a mediocre lineup of launch titles anyway that looked like PSone titles so we dont know what hes smoking regarding launch lineups] and that considering Nintendo had invested in a proprietory format console which is still uncracked today naturally it took time [as apposed to $ony which simply opted for mainstream DVD format, a format which was already out on the market and easier to launch quicker. No idea whats M$'s excuse for why they missed the boat and took so long to launch? especially when the internal setup is basically a PC pretending to be an efficient Nintendo console].

In responce to EA @ DICE 2004:
...Nintendo's decision to emphasize a cheaper price over "important features" with its GameCube console. "It may be rethinking that [philosophy] after GameCube."
EA is looking at it from their perspective. PSX consoles are pirate friendly. User pays overpriced hardware launch prices but throughout the platform's lifespan the user then saves on software when the PS platforms get cracked within months.
Nintendo users pay considerable less for hardware because its gaming-only-interactive based and will be so for many centuries to come, but users dont save on software prices because software format isnt cracked.
Nintendo out of courtesy [knowing that user will have to pay retail prices for software instead of asian black-market prices] to keep hardware price as low as possible for all users of all creed to afford and there is no onus on the user to save up huge amounts for hardware.
Note the Nintendo DS will make mockery of the N-Gayge launch price.

Its really is amazing how a so-called industry veteran cannot interpret simple decisions or reasons by Nintendo.

Nintendo generally polish their games rather than rush out like Sony's philosophy of constantly turnover rehashes. Capcom now even testify to hate Sony's phylosophy of corporate turnover over creative innovation, and as we can all see EA's identi-kit followups to its majority of its franchises suits $ony's platforms really well.
In the past, Nintendo didnt like $ony's business strategy proposals which where more related to $$$ turnover, than passion to entertain and passion to polish.
Along with other factors such as slow loading, pirate friendly CD-ROM formats and $ony charging the license fee for the format of the CD-ROM component etc. Nintendo opted for concetrating with the gaming-only approach.

The 128bit generation saw Nintendo even build a more efficient and easier to develop for console [even more efficient/easy than the PSX which had erradicated the more dedicated Saturn way of developing] however generally speaking the average gamer only buys say 12 official non-counterfeit games per console generation.

Nintendo has usually half of that hypathetical number of titles covered which leaves the 2nd parties to fill any gaps. 3rd parties have generally in the past been incapable of competing against Nintendo 1st party or 2nd party teams for the most part of history therefore they tend to shy away from Nintendo platforms and flood the pirate friendly platforms with low development royalty fees and in some
cases wavered Online costs which goes a long way for those 3rd parties
struggling from going officially bankrupt.
When consoles have users that generally purchase 12 games during the lifespan of the console then it stands to reason that its more viable to have the console using a universal format which is easily cracked which quadruples the sales of units and distracts/tempts users into purchasing pirate copied software instead of authentic and legally sold software.

The general mainstream masses dont care for polished quality control, because they dont have the time to make comparisments. If they can get their hands on dozens of pirate games each month at 2% of their equivalent retail price, its a no-brainer choice for consumer. Yes, there are those blind debaters that will deny piracy is frevelant but honestly its extremely rare to find a teenager without a chipped console these days
and thats saying a lot, being that these days [compared to 2 decades ago], teenagers are the biggest markets in the console industry.

In my opinion:

Following the Next generation [thats 2 generations away]
Nintendo's apposing console manufacturers will continue jelously persecuting
Nintendo for not having a set-top-box where user can do all their banking or ordering software and having it either downloaded into the set-top-box or delivered to your door etc on and never have to leave the house, well temporarily only for checking their snail-mail box or the local convenience store. Well at least Nintendo is not a spyware company. Never was never will.
Its even possible that M$ will use their set-top-boxes in the future to substitute classrooms in isolated demographics. Dill Gates lookalikes or clones will be bias lecturing distorted American history to eg. isolated agricultural students through the Xcox onto the TV set.
Headsets will be used to communicate to lecturer. M$ will then claim it is superior because it has a better idea than $ony's eyetoy. ...And the media will continue persecuting Nintendo for not being a spyware company cloaked with gimmicks and gadgets, but a gaming-only company, free of servers that monitor its userbase habits.

No matter what, the scummy competition will always find an angle to publicly persecute Nintendo's gaming-only-interactive phylosophy, or just illegitimately attack Nintendo's projects. Soon after Nintendo announced they had researched a viable, non-pirate form of gaming service [called iQue] for the Chinese market, $ony jelously followed up and announced it will then launch the ps2 platform in China but without any research into modifying the console to be
pirate-proof and announcing LOL it is up to Chinese Authority to enforce control on the huge piracy issue in China. $ony, should change their name into $cummy corp, at all cost, with grudge against Nintendo's prosperity.

My only suggestion is for Nintendo to remain in the next-gen and for the following eternal-gens, a gaming-only company that doesnt give a hoot about FPS or Sports markets in USA but give a hoot about artistic/cultural software instead of luke-warm identi-kit rehash followups.
Sure Nintendo will always have a minority userbase but contrary to popular mainstream media belief Nintendo is not in the gaming industry for userbase figures.
Note, its sad that way too many fanboys have been conditioned into focusing on discussing on "how to challenge $ony's market share".
And Nintendo should release 2 forms of its console. Identical components on the inside, different case aesthetics on the outside [because there are newbie markets out there that buy consumeables on the grounds of their image status].

1) Mature pack called anything but "The Duke", possibly "The Emporer's Pack"
-a slightly higher priced than the alternative option
-Wireless controllers standard
-DS PLayer built-in, [GB carts with an adapter can be used in this port]
-SD card adaptor standard
-a proprietory port for a keyboard & mouse [for future interactive gaming software such as Mario Paint 2k5 which is based on user-friendly menus for easy generating character models, texturising models, and then being able to control models and interact with environments in realtime]
-expansion port for BB/Wi-fi/802.11 etc for any user who wants to also use their console as a Standalone Linux Webmin Server without having to have Nintendo consoles hooked up to Routers and PC platforms etc to operate. This can mean that this machine needs to be always-on if user wants their content to be accessed 24/7.
See the console is still a gaming-only console but when Online the hardware supports Linux and Mozilla straight out of the box. Users can simply store their personal web pages on Virtual Webspaces or where the consoles are the means of acting as Web Servers where the content is stored on the actual console. Nintendo users would never have to endure pop-ups again when they securely browse online, as they would have the option of a non-expensive internet browsing machine/Server/Game Console.
The Console will have a simplyfied emergency recovery button [simular to new IBM laptops] because naturally M$ fanboys would eternally find ways of sabataging/hacking Nintendo's Online userbase because the platform will not be on a Closed-Server. PS, LOL, M$ have admitted they are secretly checking all Xcox Live consoles if the HDD's have been modded.

2) Kiddie pack called "Junior Pack"
-Cheaper priced because is streamlined of internal components for Online/Server features. Expansion ports available for upgrade.
-DS Player built-in, [GB carts with an adapter can be used in this port]
-Wireless controller is not inbuilt and is not a packin but available seperate
-snap-on interchangable faceplates simular to mobile phones, new Dell
laptops.
-includes a free GBA or DS game [Console comes in a dozen different case colors and hundreds of Faceplates to chose from. This is most useful for LAN Parties when eg. boring black colored consoles all look the same, with the same boring massive logo].

too long didn't read.

[mouse_clicker]

Quote
SEGA tried to only please its fans and look at the trouble they got in.

Two things. Firstly, yes, Sega tried only to please it's fan and as a result is considered one of the finest developers ever to grace this industry. In my opinion they are the only company that is as good as Nintendo at making games. Secondly, Sega was absolutely clueless in regards to running a company- the Genesis was really their only popular console, and afterwards they continued to lose more and more money every year. Nintendo is the master of profitability, and this trait alone will insure that they will last for years to come.

Quote
too long didn't read.

Then for god's sake, don't quote it!

[Infernal Monkey]

Ahahaha, I like how nonjagged adds more and more underscores to his name each time he tries to get around his last banning(s).

Planet GameCube forums, next year:
______________________________________nonjagged____________________________________

[S-U-P-E-R]

Heheheheheehahahahahahah band 4 tl;dr

[Uncle Rich AiAi]

I find it silly when people type "M$" and "$ony"

Quit doing it.

[Chongman]

I truly enjoyed that read nonjagged, thanks :-)

And I agree with most everything you say, you have some good points but I always though that the whole "two versions of the same console" thing would never work out. It just doesn't seem practical.

I personally think that the day Nintendo becomes strictly a cold heartless corporate giant that that's the day the gaming crash happens.

[Beave]

Quote
Originally posted by: Radical

At SW2k, the next-gen zelda was shown (a short clip) and it was cool- people were saying that you would buy GCN JUST FOR THIS GAME.  Then WW came out.  Now, while probably everyone here loves it, the idea is that:

If everyone said it was so super cool back then, why change it?  Nintendo just alienated non-hardcore fans.  I am not disputing whether the game was good or not (WW), im saying that nintendo could of released something that we AND the general public would both RUSH OUT to buy.

Yeah i agree. I havent bought it yet, i guess i will one day but its just not Zelda

I thought the article at game-revolution was pretty good.

Mouse Clicker, you need to backup your claims with links or evidence. No one will publish it with out any other research on the topic. And no, your brain with years of nintendo knowledge will not do.

[Beave]

Another thing; mature titles dont mean blood

What exclusive racing sim is on GC?
How many sport games are on GC?
(soccer, rugby league/union, skate boarding, surfing, cricket)

They need more in these categories
Games u can just pick up and play, casual games.

[KDR_11k]

For many people "mature games" means just that, games rated "mature". Sad but true.

[thecubedcanuck]

" For many people "mature games" means just that, games rated "mature". Sad but true. "

That is pure crap. Again you try to come accross as the be all end all of videogame knowledge.

Gaming has changed, deal with it.

[The Omen]

Quote
" For many people "mature games" means just that, games rated "mature". Sad but true. "

That is pure crap. Again you try to come accross as the be all end all of videogame knowledge.

Gaming has changed, deal with it.

He did say 'many people', Cubed.  And i agree.  I see who buys what games on a daily basis, and sadly teens look for the rating on everything they buy be it music, movies or games.  So, i'm not saying no mature toitles are good.  I'm saying that having the mature rating on a sh!tty game and having the 'E' rating on an equally sh!tty game, guess which one sells more?

[Ian Sane]

"For many people 'mature games' means just that, games rated 'mature'. Sad but true."

I think mature games means more how realistic looking and cool it is.  It doesn't have to have an actual 'M' rating.  Goldeneye for example was rated 'T' as are the Final Fantasy games and most people consider them to be mature games.  'T' games actually sell better than 'M' games since responsible parents are more tolerant of letting their kids play them.  "Mature" has nothing to do with maturity or the rating on the box.  It's an image.  A "mature" game is a cool game.  That's why an 'E' rated sports game is still considered mature.  Because it's a cool game.

Nintendo's image isn't hurt because they don't make bloody violent 'M' rated games it's because they don't make very many cool games.  Metroid is cool, Mario and Pokemon aren't.  Zelda used to be considered cool until they turned it into a cartoon.  Zelda can be cool again if they change it back to something more like the N64 games.  Realistically Metroid, Zelda, 1080, Wave Race, F-Zero, Pilotwings, and Excitebike all have the potential to be cool if Nintendo markets them well and doesn't "kiddy up" the design.

[Chongman]

Ok, that's where I'll draw the line.

Your viewpoints just seem so mainstream...and while I know that's what you're going for, I can't help but disagree.

Yeah, you're right, zelda would have sold a whole of a lot better had it been just like the spaceworld demo, but when you think about it, is that really nintendo? Especially considering something as holy as zelda, did you really expect them to do anything BUT mix it up a little?

These "mature" games as you call em are full of crock. Yes, nintendo needs more sports titles and racing titles, thats a demographic that they have been ignoring for far too long, but that's completely beside the point. If a game is good, then why must it be "mature" also?  Why must it be realistic? Why must blood be drawn and the parents cringe? If it's a GOOD GAME ALREADY then why in the world does it need anything else?

If the zelda franchise couldn't handle cell shading, if for some reason it didn't work and made a mockery of the game, if cell shading took away from the zelda feel and if it was done poorly, disastardly, if it were an utter failure would whole heartedly agree with you and so would everyone else out there who bantered around yelling "zelda? more like I am a tremendous clownboat.!"

But the point is the game DIDN'T suck and cell shading actualy worked for it and it was a great game. Now, everyone has disagreements and protests on things that could have been done better, but had it been "mature" would any of these complaints vanish? NO! Because no matter how you see it, "mature" or for "everyone," it was still a GOOD GAME despite the lack of M on the box art. In fact, it was a game of the year canidate, so what does it matter if it weren't "mature" enough for casual gamers?

Casual gamers are the leaches on gaming society. And as non jagged pointed out, nintendo will never appeal to these half breed shmucks because that's not what nintendo does. They don't collate and rehash and make decisions just for sales. They make decisions to make profit, which ensures them a place in the gaming world no matter what, and then they appeal to GAMES, not casual gamers. Not gamers who want a "link vs ganon: the bloodfest to end all time" Why do you complain if these games are good? No, nintendo does not focus on "cool" but they focus on quality. Would you really have it any other way?

[KDR_11k]

Cubed, Ian: Really, there ARE people like that. Just because it's irrational doesn't mean people don't do it.

Nintendo doesn't deliver "mature" games (even the not-rated-M-kind). I have the theory they are just incapable of that. I have complained about EAD's bad texturing before and texturing is the main problem in making "realistic" games. I have doubts EAD could create a realistic game (let aside Miyamoto probably wouldn't like restrictions like "realism").

Come to think of it, is 1080 a "mature" game?

On another note, games rated M rarely sell. Really, that's what was stated in many sales studies. Out of about 40 million sellers only about four were rated M.

[Ian Sane]

Chongman is your post responding to what I wrote?  I was presenting the view of the casual gamer not myself.  I personally don't care if a game is cool as long as it's good.  But I know a lot of people don't feel that way and that's why Nintendo has an image problem.

"Why do you complain if these games are good? No, nintendo does not focus on 'cool' but they focus on quality. Would you really have it any other way?"

Why can't they make games that are cool AND are high quality.  Metroid Prime and Goldeneye both fit that mold perfectly.  Is making a Zelda game that's also cool (which they did with Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask) going to make the game suck?  No.  It's still going to be a great game and unlike Wind Waker it will appeal to a wider variety of people.

[thecubedcanuck]

"Casual gamers are the leaches on gaming society. And as non jagged pointed out, nintendo will never appeal to these half breed shmucks because that's not what nintendo does. They don't collate and rehash and make decisions just for sales. . "

That statement is pure lunacy. I have played games since they first game out in home console forum. I am 33 years old, and play nearly everyday. I have played every Zelda game, every mario game, and own all 3 current gen consoles. I didnt like Zelda, I found it very drawn out and boring, in fact I havnt really liked any of the Zelda games, they just arent my cup of tea. I loved every Mario, up until sunshine. I couldnt  stand that game, and have tried playing it on many occasions in the hope of changing my own mind, it just didnt happen. My favorite games are usually sports titles. I also really like shooters and racing games (non futuristic). I think GTA3 and Vice city are both better games than Wind Waker. I love Halo, and I love grand turismo.
I spend a lot of money on gaming and I dont base my descisions on what anyone else thinks. I play what I like and I dont play what I dont like, regardless of how good other people think it is. I am both a hardcore gamer and a casual gamer.
A lot of recent nintendo games havent appealed to me, so by your reasoning and non jaggeds (therapy anyone) I must be a schmuck. Did it ever cross your mind that I might just not like the games for what they are? That I just didnt enjoy playing them? If someone likes games with violence in them, why do you automatically assume they are immature casual gamers? I  find it hillarious to play violent games, I honestly find it a lot of fun. I played Manhunt the other day for the first time, and loved plastic bagging someone, I thought it was a blast. I am not a lunatic, I can seperate games and movies from reality.
I just enjoyed the game, I had fun playing it. So if you think I am schmuck, so be it. Just be sure to hide the plastic bags

[Chongman]

Nope, I was actualy responding to posts a bit prior to yours, sorry if u thought I was bagging on you :-P It was supposed to be directed towards cubed and beave

And I agree with you, nintendo should have gotten a clue by now and realized that something can be both slick and fun to play and those two combined make for one awesome game. What I'm saying though is that priorety wise, quality and polishing comes before sales and appealing to casual gamers.

[Chongman]

hey cubed, sorry for the misunderstanding, but did I ever specifically call you a casual gamer? I hope I didn't...because that's not what I was intending to do. If you don't like certain games and you like other genres, that's 100% fine, I never stated otherwise. When I say casual gamers, I mean the adult who every so often buys a sports game for the fun of it and kids who go out and buy games just because it's "cool" (since when did games become cool though? bizarre...) Want a good example? Anyone who bought Enter the Matrix and actualy thought it was a stellar game. It was cool, it was slick, but after about thirty minutes of terrible gameplay, once you got over the kickass yet mundane fighting, you suddenly realize...hey! this is a terrible game!

Nintendo though, as I see from your post, really does nothing for you, so I don't understand why you're here. Nostalgia perhaps? You seem like an xbox gamer, which is perfectly acceptable (that is unless you think xbox is the best  soley on its hardware capabilities). GTA and vice city are great games if that's what you're going for, though I personally believe that ever since those games came out the market and the consumer have been dead set on "mature" and slick games over polished quality. Not to say that GTA isn't a fine piece of software, it just seemed to have that influence on the market.

I understand where you're coming from, but understand what I'm saying too. Nintendo hasn't appealed to racers/sports/shooters too much as of late. They can improve on that, no doubt, but it just seems those two genres have never been their forte. Racer/sports and to some degree, shooter fans, sadly, usually make up the "casual gamer" demographic. Even so, that in no way implies that all racer/sports/shooter fans are casual gamers. Rather, it's a pity that the market is flooded with so much crap that fit these genres it's terrible. If nintendo doesn't fill your needs, then why do you own a gc?

Note: Sorry for sounding like an idiot. I can't seem to think very well right now and later on I just might remove this post altogether