Topic: EAD not good enough for 3D?

[KDR_11k]

It seems to me that EAD is incapable of working with current-gen graphics. Their graphics were top-of-the-line back in the 2d-era. They could keep up with the N64's small textures. But now these restrictions no longer apply and EAD doesn't seem to have come over it yet. Blurry, undetailed textures everywhere. Characters are mostly shaped by the mesh, the texture barely contributes anything. HAL has demonstrated how even undetailed characters like Mario can benefit from modern technology. Ever compared the non-HAL and HAL-models in SSBM's trophy-collection? Take Yoshi: Zoom in on the standard trophy, you will see his textures are pretty much just flat colors. Zoom in on the smash-version, however, the textures have things like noise (helps making flat colors more iregular ingame). HAL seems to have better texture artists than EAD. There are thousands of people out there who could do better than EAD, why don't they just hire some?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Apparently things have to be cel-shaded (Wind Waker),
or things have to be SEMI-cel-shaded (looks like things COULD BE, but isn't quite -- Sunshine, Double Dash).

Flat colors ahoy!

[mouse_clicker]

Pikmin looked pretty incredible, especially the grass textures. EAD also helped a lot with other games, like Metroid Prime and Eternal Darkness.

Really, thought it only seems like you guys are saying this to get some attention. :/ The same thing has been said hundreds of times and I'm getting pretty sick of it. Don't you have anything better to do? Or at least could you post in existing threads?

[Ian Sane]

Like mouse_clicker said Pikmin looked great.  Luigi's Mansion also looked pretty good.  It had a lot of cool lighting and particle effects.  The only EAD games that really look "bad" are the Mario titles.  After Smash Bros was released Nintendo decided to use the same Mario model for all the Mario games to save development time.  That's a pretty good idea actually.  Unfortunately they just chose a REALLY basic model.  I figure Miyamoto thought the HAL model was too detailed and he overcompensated in simplifying the design.

[egman]

I actually think EAD has made some of the best, solid engines this gen. The only thing I can say that is bad about their games is short cuts in textures. I'm still in awe of Wind Waker today as I was when I finally had chance to play at a Circuit City kiosk back in Feburary. Few games have as fluid animation as the GC Zelda. And besides that, the game has a grab bag of effects such as depth field rendering, wave effects, some neat wrapping effects with the local lighting, reflections, and shadows on the characters that actually react to light sources unlike other cel shaded games I've played which have static ones. I tend to forget about some sloppy textures when so much attentinon had been paid to animation, effects, invisible load times, and really solid frame rates.

Pikmin, as mouse-clicker said, is another beautiful game. And the little bit of media that has come out for Pikmin 2 shows that it is looking better.

In the end, I think texture quality and things like bump-mapping that strive to makes surfaces standout are over-rated. These things won't make a game feel more solid if the basic engine is devoid of good art or a stable framerate for instance.

[KDR_11k]

I was complaining about the textures, seems like everybody agrees although they like to point out how other effects are good. I don't doubt that the special effects look good, however textures are still a part of the graphics and EAD should learn to use them properly. I have serious doubts that EAD could produce a realistic look even if they wanted to.

[manunited4eva22]

I don't.  They have been around the hardware more than anyone else, they have seen everyone else's technique on doing it.  It's a matter of choice at that point.

[Bill Aurion]

....................

The graphical look that EAD gives its games is deliberate...It has nothing to do with competence...

[mouse_clicker]

Like I said, Pikmin had incredibly god textures. And also, isn't cel-shading a form of texturing, or at least how it was used in Wind Waker? I thought I remember hearing that somewhere.

[Grey Ninja]

mouse, indeed Cel Shading is a form of texturing in itself.  It's a common misconception that Cel-Shading requires less power and less talent to execute.  I assure you that this is not true.  It's also a common misconception that Cel-Shading is not 3D.  It is.  It's also a common misconception that Cel-Shading is spelled with two 'l''s.  It's not.

It's also a common misconception that the only thing you can do with the awesome power of a console is make highly detailed models and textures.  It's not.  You can also create a great amount of ambience, such as blowing grass, better framerates, more activity in the backgrounds, and all sorts of stuff like that.  EAD lives by that philosophy.  They would rather create a better world than create more detailed characters.

Personally, I don't see a problem with the textures.  It's true that they can be a little blurry at times, but I am usually too busy playing the game to really examine whether or not the rock has blurred cracks or not.

[Uglydot]

I enjoy the style.  It makes the game lighter.  I am all for a realistic looking shooter with sharp textures.  But, when I load up a GCN game, it is to have fun.  Most of my collection is made up of quirky fun games.  Asside from Metroid Prime, at least.  I hope they keep the style they have, it stands out.

[Deguello]

Framerate is also a major issue people forget in thinking about graphics.  The Last Nintendo published game I'm aware of that had a not-so-stable framerate was Majora's Mask. (I know Wario World slowed down on parts of the last level, but most of the time it was locked at 60fps.)  Screenshots, while useful, never do the game justice.  Viewing the game in motion is required.  I remember reviewers going all apeshit over framerate some years ago.  I guess "bad textures" is now the pénalité du jour.

[Berny]

SMS was jumpy at times. It happened a lot to me when I used the jet pack nozzle. The only reason for that though is the insanely well done water.

[KDR_11k]

Grey: Textures ARE easier to make when working with cel-shading.

[Grey Ninja]

KDR.  You are telling me that slapping a texture on a polygon takes more talent than this?

[Koopa Troopa]

Quote
mouse, indeed Cel Shading is a form of texturing in itself. It's a common misconception that Cel-Shading requires less power and less talent to execute.

Indeed. In fact, most of the time, it requires more power than most other things (it is more taxing on the hardware, and therefore more taxing for all involved in the development). Especially in something like WW, where great pains were obviously  taken to make the cel-shading seamless. I mean, looking at WW you can see everything blends perfectly, the characters don't contrast with the background, they complement it. None of that happens by accident.

Quote
It's also a common misconception that the only thing you can do with the awesome power of a console is make highly detailed models and textures. It's not. You can also create a great amount of ambience, such as blowing grass, better framerates, more activity in the backgrounds, and all sorts of stuff like that. EAD lives by that philosophy. They would rather create a better world than create more detailed characters.

Absolutely. One of the most beautiful games this generation is, in my opinion, Luigi's Mansion. Sure Some of the character textures had that dithered look, but the game was just incredibly attractive. From the Luigi's flashlight to his little vacuum vortex that would blow up dust particles or suck up bed sheets. And all of that would often times be happening through an alpha-blended wall. It was jsut stunning, absolutely stunning.

[GoldShadow1]

"Pikmin looked pretty incredible, especially the grass textures. EAD also helped a lot with other games, like Metroid Prime and Eternal Darkness."

Ah yes, I almost forgot about Pikmin.  That game is amazing.  In any case, as long as EAD can pump out more Super Mario Sunshine's and Pikmin's, I can't complain

[KDR_11k]

Grey: Not necessarily. However, we can be pretty sure about it requiring a completely different kind of talent, namely coding. The textures used by cel-shaded models ARE much more simple than those used by normal ones. In fact, these textures are so simple even I can do them without any problems and I'm pretty bad with everything 2d.
By the way, a lot of that stuff is used to determine where to draw the black outline, something obviousely not present in windwaker. In games this is usually done by copying the mesh, scaling along vertex normals, inverting the normals and applying a black texture. Doesn't look as good as correctly calculated lines (the flaws are pretty visible in Viewtiful Joe) but is a whole lot easier to do and takes less processing time (even though it effectively doubles the triangle count).

[Shadow Link]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Grey: Not necessarily. However, we can be pretty sure about it requiring a completely different kind of talent, namely coding. The textures used by cel-shaded models ARE much more simple than those used by normal ones. In fact, these textures are so simple even I can do them without any problems and I'm pretty bad with everything 2d.
By the way, a lot of that stuff is used to determine where to draw the black outline, something obviousely not present in windwaker. In games this is usually done by copying the mesh, scaling along vertex normals, inverting the normals and applying a black texture. Doesn't look as good as correctly calculated lines (the flaws are pretty visible in Viewtiful Joe) but is a whole lot easier to do and takes less processing time (even though it effectively doubles the triangle count).

If all these textures and cel shading models are so simple and easy for you why dont you post a render of your work?

[mjbd]

I would have to agree with this post.  EAD is not at the top of the list when on a technical level.  Mario Sunshine for example had simple textures, nice effect, but a sloppy framerate for the simple graphics.  I know, the water is amazing, but when graphics are fairly simple in comparison to what others are doing, a rock solid framerate should be there.  EAD just doesnt seem to be at the top of the class.  They arent bad, they still make aswome games, but they arent the best at squeezing perfomance out of a system.

[Bill Aurion]

I have no idea what you are talking about...The framerate has only dropped once in all the time I've put into it, and that only when there were many enemies coming after me...

[Ocarina Blue]

KDR isn't saying he's a modelling master (although you never know). He's just saying that making a texture for a cel-shaded model (say, plain green for Link's tunic) is easier than making a more realistic representation of it (a texture with tiny threads woven into cloth). Of course the cel-shading in WW has exellent shadows and animation, but that's coder's work, it has nothing to do with textures.  

[mjbd]

Are you referring to my post Bill?  If so, your lucky, you obviously dont notice framerate drops.  Mario Sunshine is horrible in some area's.  Its weird to, cause it wont be in an area with alot of activity, it will be in some randome spot that shouldnt be having any problems.  Most of the time it runs great, but there are times when its awfully anoying.  Then again, I am a framerate whore.

[KDR_11k]

Shadowlink: Here. I'd like to use the outline trick for demonstration, but my main computer has a problem and crashes when I start Blender. Had to take these pics on my laptop, which is so slow it'd take twenty minutes for it to interpret my input.

[Grey Ninja]

Heh.  Well done KDR.    My hat's off to you.

But I STILL maintain that skill in coding and skill in texturing is not so different as you would like to believe.