Author Topic: Why you should drop IE (Read 28137 times)

Grey Ninja · « **on:** October 13, 2003, 05:10:51 PM »

It's come to my attention that in spite of all my efforts to prove to people around here that IE is the enemy, there are still people around here using the browser. So I have assembled some stuff to help you make up your mind to download 6MB worth of new browser, and actually go through all the trouble of unzipping it.

I of course use Mozilla Firebird, which I find to be both fast and stable.

But anyways, to the point of IE:

1) Valve trusted IE as their web browser, but in the end they lost millions of dollars worth of intellectual property.

2) Microsoft shows very little intent to actually fix the glaring problems with their browser, as they feel they have already won the browser war.

3) What's worse is that it almost doesn't seem feasable for Microsoft to fix their browser. The code is an unwieldy mess, and Microsoft would have to put a lot of money into fixing it. Money that they likely don't want to spend.

So what we have here after points 1 to 3 is that Internet Explorer is a very serious security risk on your computer. It's akin to putting your computer in the middle of a park everyday at this point, as there are 31 unpatched security holes that are VERY well documented. Microsoft seems unwilling to fix those holes, leaving the consumer to fend for themselves, with disasterous consequences in some cases.

Not only has IE been left behind in terms of security however, but it's also lacking features:

4) Internet Explorer fails to offer features offered by most of the other browsers.

5) Internet Explorer is generally slower than some of the other browsers, such as Mozilla Firebird.

6) Internet Explorer lacks compatibility with the HTML Standards, making it difficult for web developers to support the most common browser.

Points 4 - 6 basically state that IE is lagging far behind the other browsers in terms of features and compatability. I know that you might think that it doesn't matter, because all the sites you visit work fine in IE, but really, that's only because the sites were engineered specifically to work with IE. Nobody will code a site that adheres to the HTML standard, but doesn't work with IE. Nevertheless, I can provide an example.

This site has been coded in a standard way, yet if you view it with IE, it will show an error. I see no such error when I view it with a more advanced browser, such as Firebird. In fact, there's a little icon in the bottom left corner of my screen in which I can change the style sheet to fit my mood. That basically means that I can change up the style sheet as I please, or not use one at all, drastically changing the appearance of the page.

Now I am sick of talking. You can't help those who refuse to help themselves, so read this, then make up your own mind. If you choose to stick with IE, then there's not much I can do for you. It's your choice of course, but if you still stick with IE, I will never understand that. There's just no reason to. For those who switch, I will help you through the process. For those who have already switched, I'll offer a toast.

KnowsNothing · « **Reply #1 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:19:27 PM »

If I get internet in my room, this would be the first thing I would do.

But, I veiwed that link you provided with IE and there was no error message and the page loaded just fine. Either you provided the wrong link, I am stupid, or I am magic. Pick one.

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #2 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:22:51 PM »

Actually, I should have clarified that. It loads fine, but IE reports a script error, and the text near the top of the screen that says: "There are currently 113 extensions available here. Highlighted extensions have been recently updated." is very buggy in IE.

KnowsNothing · « **Reply #3 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:26:15 PM »

Woah, that's pretty cool and fun to play with. You put the cursor over a link, and half the text disappears! And then you highlight it to make it come back! YAY!

Bloodworth · « **Reply #4 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:28:50 PM »

Heh, well, I'm trying it out now. If I like it, I'll set it as default. Doing good so far.

Bloodworth · « **Reply #5 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:38:52 PM »

Well, when I try to listen to Louie FM, it gets all wacky and keeps closing and opening the same window -- even when I turn off the Pop Up Blocker.

Sirmorphix · « **Reply #6 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:39:59 PM »

Bleh, I'll stick with IE. This is like trying to get someone to switch to linux. Most people won't based purely on the fact that they already know IE. Just like most people already know windows and won't switch to linux.

I've never had a problem with IE and prefer its "less" features. I don't really like tabbed browsing and most of the features highlighted on the Firebird features page are not that incredible. Windows can remember when you've filled in web forms and deals with favourites just fine. As for pop ups, yeah, they're annoying, but I can deal with them. And because web sites program to be compatible with IE, there is pretty much never an issue with its non compliancy with HTML standards. But until things like xhtml become standards (probably never at this rate) I see little reason to switch over to any other browser as most others just other gimmicky features or features that can be installed in IE with little effort.

I understand your frustrations though, as someone who is often frustrated with a particularily popular product. For years I couldn't figure out why people would use a shell like explorer when something as awesome as Litestep was around. But I've just come to accept it as how it's going to be. Good luck on your quest to spread the love for Mozilla though, as my reasons for not switching are purely my own. I'm sure that are at least a few users on these boards who would enjoy what it has to offer.

Edit: For spelling. Ugh.

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #7 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:40:48 PM »

Eh? That's strange.... It's never happened to me.... I am going to do some checking on this. I just tested it out, and it works fine for me. I will see if maybe it's something in my profile.

EDIT: Sirmorphix, Firebird behaves almost exactly like IE. It wouldn't kill you to at least try it out, but as I said, you can't help those who won't help themselves.

EDIT2: Bloodworth, I just tried Louie FM again with a fresh install of Firebird, and it's still working fine for me. I really don't know why it would be behaving differently on your machine. Maybe just try again? Sorry, I really don't know what to say.

EDIT3: Bloodworth, what media player are you using to play the audio? I am using Winamp, and it might be the player you use, as I have never tried the RealPlayer plugin in Firebird. (I hate RealMedia)

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #8 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:49:29 PM »

Sirmorphix: Linux is a bad example- an operating system is all about how the user interfaces his computer, which is a very big change if a change is made at all. With a browser, the change is actually very minor. I switched from IE to Opera a long time ago and the change was completely and utterly painless, and I was used to Opera within a matter of minutes. The interface really isn't that different- it's all in the compatibility and the smoothness of better browsers like Mozilla or Opera when compared to lower quality browsers like IE or Netscape.

Termin8Anakin · « **Reply #9 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:52:36 PM »

I just 'tried' Firebird.
Nothing happened.
I downloaded it, extracted it and put it into a folder, ran the bloody huge 7MB file, and......nothing.
It was added onto that window thing of running programs (press ctrl+alt+delete), but no browser window popped up.

Like many of the other headless chickens on the internet, I use IE simply out of habit. Tell me to use Mozilla or any other browsers, screw it. Why should I? Just like why I use Windows. Both are buggy as hell, but I am so used to them, learning something else would be a waste of time. I saw one of my dad's friends Linux-based computer, and geezus christ. Am I supposed to like the fact that it looks like DOS?

Just respect our decision, ok?

My PC needs are similar to my gaming needs. I've been using Windows since i was 5 because it was easy to use. So out of habit, I've been using nothing else, much like how I buy Nintendo out of habit and familiarity.
Microsoft may not have the same care as Nintendo in their products (programs that are made to be obselete or deliberately made buggy so more money is spent on user support), but I don't care.

Sirmorphix · « **Reply #10 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:54:08 PM »

Yeah I realised after my edit that I didn't explain any of my previous experiences with other browsers. Before I started working at Electronic Arts (where I am right now actually, at 8:00pm, testing NFS:U and watching the RedSox vs. Yankees) I worked doing web programming (PHP specifically). And I've worked with most of the major browsers while I did that. It amazed even some of my co-workers that I was still using IE, because it is the less popular choice for the web-savy.

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but as I said, you can't help those who won't help themselves.

A little high on ourselves with that comment aren't we?

mouse_clicker: I have a bad habit of over exagerating to try and get my point accross. Linux wasn't the best example, agreed.

Bloodworth · « **Reply #11 on:** October 13, 2003, 06:00:19 PM »

I'm actually trying to play it with the normal Live 365 player window.

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #12 on:** October 13, 2003, 06:02:51 PM »

The thing you don't realize is that switching browsers is easy and painless. If you don't want to block popups, then fine, you can disable that easily enough, and get all the popups you want. If you don't like the different look of Firebird, then that's fine too. You can skin it to look exactly like IE. If you don't like the icons, then use IE's icons. If you want the security holes present in IE, then you can import IE's capabilities into the browser.

After doing all that, you have a browser that looks, behaves, and feels like IE. But it will still be faster and less buggy.

If you don't do that, you have a browser that functions exactly the same as IE. The menus are easier to navigate, there aren't any unpatched security holes, and you have all the extra features of Firebird at your disposal. There's just no reason not to use it.

Termin8, I frankly have no idea why it wouldn't run for you. Mystic Gohan has that same problem, but I have no explanation why that might be.

Bloodworth · « **Reply #13 on:** October 13, 2003, 06:03:02 PM »

Ok, just tried it with WinAmp, and I can listen and keep the player window open at the same time.

KnowsNothing · « **Reply #14 on:** October 13, 2003, 06:03:09 PM »

Sirmorphix: Red Sox or Yankees? If you say Yankees I will be forced to cut off your eyelids. Choose carefully.

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #15 on:** October 13, 2003, 06:04:38 PM »

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Originally posted by: Bloodworth
I'm actually trying to play it with the normal Live 365 player window.

Hmmm... That's only for preferred members isn't it? So I can't test it myself. But it's my guess that Live365 probably uses some ActiveX controls to play the audio stream. Firebird doesn't support that very well at all because a malicious website can do great harm with them. Sorry, but as much as I hate to say this, I think that would be IE only.

Bloodworth · « **Reply #16 on:** October 13, 2003, 06:13:11 PM »

No, I'm not paying for preferred membership. Anyways, you've gotten one convert out of this...of course I have been hearing about it for months so, you can't take all the credit.

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #17 on:** October 13, 2003, 06:14:26 PM »

Well, I am very happy that you did switch Bloodworth. It makes me feel that writing all that text and finding all those links was worth my time. IE must go down!

oohhboy · « **Reply #18 on:** October 13, 2003, 06:21:18 PM »

In all this discussion I am suprised that no one has brought up Netscape which I use which I admit is pretty good except for that random memory leakage problem. What are your thoughts on this Grey Ninja?

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #19 on:** October 13, 2003, 06:24:38 PM »

Actually, I hate Netscape even more than IE, to be honest. It's gotten better since they have scrapped their own code and imported Mozilla's, but it's still inferior to anything else out there IMO.

Sirmorphix · « **Reply #20 on:** October 13, 2003, 07:56:25 PM »

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The thing you don't realize is that switching browsers is easy and painless.

No I understand that and never stated that it was difficult.

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If you don't want to block popups, then fine, you can disable that easily enough, and get all the popups you want.

Or I could just keep using IE where I don't have to disable anything.

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You can skin it to look exactly like IE. If you don't like the icons, then use IE's icons.

Or I could just use IE.

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If you want the security holes present in IE, then you can import IE's capabilities into the browser.

You win this point, I can't argue about the security problems with IE.

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After doing all that, you have a browser that looks, behaves, and feels like IE. But it will still be faster and less buggy.

This statement isn't neccesarily true. Especially in terms of loading, IE, because it's a system component loads much faster than Mozilla even with the Quick Launch feature. Between the two of them, Opera still loads much faster.

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If you don't do that, you have a browser that functions exactly the same as IE. The menus are easier to navigate

The fact that you feel the menus are easier to navigate is really your opinion not a fact.

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there aren't any unpatched security holes, and you have all the extra features of Firebird at your disposal.

Features I wouldn't use anyway, or don't want. As for the security holes, well we already covered that. However Mozilla is not bug less, it has bugs, and issues with Font Support, and bugs relating to extensions. And just like IE, it crashes. I don't know about other people who complain about IE crashing all the time, but I have infrequent IE crashes at best.

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There's just no reason not to use it.

There are plenty of reasons not to use it. Just as there are plenty of reasons to use it. Most of all is user preference. I am aware of the short comings and issues of the browser I use, and I still choose to use it because it is the browser that I enjoy the most. I always enjoy being updated about new features or people's opinions on things such as Mozilla vs. IE or Litestep vs. Explorer. But I don't enjoy having people telling me that I am naive because I "refuse to help myself". I made an informed decision to use IE after trying the alternatives.

Molobert · « **Reply #21 on:** October 13, 2003, 07:59:57 PM »

I for one love Mozilla, got it for several months ago after hearing GN talk about it (thanks). The pop-up blocker is awesome, but my favorite parts are the customizability and the tabbed windows. I have tabbed windows for AIM (if anyone wants the program PM me) and after using tabs you really can't go back. I try to get others to use it but they're "too lazy," which is a common excuse it seems.

Grey Ninja · « **Reply #22 on:** October 13, 2003, 08:01:41 PM »

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This statement isn't neccesarily true. Especially in terms of loading, IE, because it's a system component loads much faster than Mozilla even with the Quick Launch feature. Between the two of them, Opera still loads much faster.

Firebird loads in about half the time as IE for me, and it's not even a system component.

Also, I should mention that Mozilla Firebird doesn't have a quick launch feature. You are thinking of Mozilla, which is a different browser (but the basis for Firebird). Firebird is basically a stripped down version of the browser component of Mozilla. The plan for the future is to seperate all of Mozilla's features into two main components, Being Firebird (browser), and Thunderbird (mail), and have the rest as extensions. In this way, speed and stability aren't compromised for features. Use what you need, scrap the rest.

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There are plenty of reasons not to use it. Just as there are plenty of reasons to use it. Most of all is user preference. I am aware of the short comings and issues of the browser I use, and I still choose to use it because it is the browser that I enjoy the most. I always enjoy being updated about new features or people's opinions on things such as Mozilla vs. IE or Litestep vs. Explorer. But I don't enjoy having people telling me that I am naive because I "refuse to help myself". I made an informed decision to use IE after trying the alternatives.

Fair enough. But the reason why you would be using IE instead of Firebird still eludes me. Do you care to explain? As far as I know, the two browsers are nearly identical in terms of usage.

Shift Key · « **Reply #23 on:** October 13, 2003, 09:07:18 PM »

Mario: How long ago was that? There are many flavours of Linux out, some even as the clone of Windows (see Lindows), but I can understand how they appear to be 'alien' to some people.
As for the graphics, this area of Linux is improving in leaps and bounds.

I could write a fair amount about how much Linux has improved, and how/where/why it is a better OS than Windows, but you guys can look it up.

I plan to make a Linux server for my next computer project. Any suggestions for what kind of Linux I should run? A friend of mine suggested Sorcerer Linux, but I'm open to other suggestions.
Sorry to deviate from the topic, but I might as well continue a debate of some sort.

And as for the IE/rest of them debate, Sirmorphix has a right to continue to use IE. Despite all of the known and unknown problems with it.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It just depends on how much damage you can tolerate.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #24 on:** October 13, 2003, 11:25:17 PM »

Shifty: Debian. True Linux, major distro, auto update, webinstall, etc.

Sure, alternative Browsers also have bugs, but those usually get fixed in no time. And hackers usually "support" only the most common system (Windows, IE, OE, etc). How many Linux virii have you ever heard of?
As an Opera user I have learned to hate IE. There was a time I thought it was sufficient, but once you taste blood you cannot go back. IE feels sluggish and unreliable. How many times have you read "I wrote a long rant but lost it"? In Opera I can press back and the text is still there. I often use that to go between reply-form and the actual thread to read things up. "Continue saved session" is also a very good feature. Reading an article? Want do do something else and continue reading later? Just close the browser and when you open it the page is still there. That also works when the browser crashes (rare). Also, a crashing 3rd party browser won't take Explorer with it.

News:

Author Topic: Why you should drop IE (Read 28137 times)