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Offline Molobert

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Rare: A Year Later
« on: September 15, 2003, 05:06:13 PM »
A very interesting article about Rare one year after leaving Nintendo.
Link
Personally I agree with the article - if I had an Xbox, I wouldn't be too excited about Grabbed by the Ghoulies.

Offline Strell

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2003, 05:28:12 PM »
Rare: One Year Later

No games for Xbox yet.

The two games they have for Xbox look like textbook, prime examples of cow excriment.

They are completely full of themselves.

No word on Perfect Dark.

....

In short, Nintendo wins.
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Offline Sirmorphix

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2003, 05:38:57 PM »
For the most part I agree with the article.  I definately think that, as hard of a decision as it was, getting rid of Rare will be beneficial to Nintendo in the long term.  Getting the money from microsoft for a company that cannot produce titles in a reasonable time frame, so they can invest in quality titles now is a smart idea.  However what Nintendo cannot afford to do now is to waste any of that money, not one dollar.  Get good titles out now, spend more money on advertising and sign more deals from 3rd party publishers to get them on the system, either now or by the time the N5 comes out.

The deal is, that Nintendo needs to hype the N5 and show that they can compete for a large portion of the market share.  Other wise, developers will once again, place it at a much lower priority to develop for than the PS3, because that's where they'll make the most money.  It's going to be a hard time coming up for Nintendo, but I have strong faith that they can successfully launch the N5 with a lot of force.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2003, 06:19:12 PM »
I find it sad that they took BK with them.  That by far is one of my favorite series...
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Offline Mario

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RE: Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2003, 06:36:52 PM »
I guess we'll see soon enough concerning the quality of Rare's Xbox games

Offline AgentSeven

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RE: Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2003, 06:38:48 PM »
Banjo wasn't too bad, I'm actually playing the GBA game as we speak.

Still, Rare can seriously kiss my "whatever."  Did you know that the N64 hi-res pack was produced just for two lousy Rare games?  Mainly because the company couldn't get their "stuff" together and release a decent title on time, and running smoothly.  Without Martin Hollis, the company was nothing.  Also Free Radical, was just Rare's garbage.(Glorified game testers.  Boy that will get me flamed...)

Microsoft certainly got the shaft on this deal.  
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Offline The Omen

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2003, 06:41:11 PM »
I agree with the whole article.   I will miss Perfect Dark, but that is really it.  And Kid Icarus is a must remake, damn you Nintendo!  Oh well, thanks for the memories Rare, but no games thus far really is inexcusable.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2003, 06:53:16 PM »
Thinking about Martin Hollis, I find it funny that he left Rare before it was sold, and created a company that is making a Ninty-exclusive title...Coincedence?

*Is jealous of AgentSeven:  Can't get Grunty's Revenge until this weekend *    
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Offline Gup

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2003, 06:56:17 PM »
I'm still one of the craziest Rare fans.  They made such masterpieces like Conker's Bad Fur Day and Diddy Kong Racing.  I've basically loved all their games even the less popular ones such as Donkey Kong 64 and JetForce Gemini.  So I'm sure they will continue to impress me and I'll definitely need to borrow an Xbox for some Grabbed by the Ghoulies and some Conker: Live and Uncut.

And for those who say Rare betrayed Nintendo, it's definitely the other way around.  I'm still "ticked" with Nintendo's decision to sell them, but I guess it was a good business decision even though they kept the N64 alive in my opinion.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2003, 07:03:22 PM »
You and me both.  When I heard the news I actually went into a state of depression for a couple days.  But it is true that they have lost a lot of their talent.  Even through bad times Rare will hold a place in my heart

Hopefully lead Rare guy MH will do something amazing that will remind us of those days that Rare was great(with Game Zero that is)
~Former Resident Zelda Aficionado and Nintendo Fan~

Offline Mario

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RE: Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2003, 07:28:09 PM »
I also went into a state of depression for a couple of days, actually about a week

Now im coping, ive decided to buy an Xbox if Perfect Dark Zero is released on it, and turns out good.

Offline thepoga

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2003, 08:15:47 PM »
look guys. rare is NOT the rare that we all know and love. Sure they make great games even now... in several years each! seriously, ALOT of game companies can make the same level of goodness in the amount of time that rare gets if u think about it.

Rare WAS really good during the SNES and N64 eras. But right now its only the company's name is the same and the wait times. ive felt this ever since the last few years of the N64 and early GC. 4 years for one friggin game? AND it still couldve been better. 4 years and they couldnt fine tune everything? and that is the ONLY game they were working on. Retro studios took how long to make metroid prime? AND it was their first game ever. AND metroid prime was one of the greatest games in my opinion.

Bottom line is, if ur going to cry about losing rare, u shouldve cried in about 1999 or something. Thats when it started to forget how to make good games. its taking longer and longer for it to make a good game. Im sure when perfect dark and conker come out theyll be good. but any other company can produce that and more if given the time.

Offline Djunknown

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2003, 08:44:38 PM »
Man how time flies. I remember a year ago, I was talking with the manager at my local Blockbuster just talking about gaming news (He's an XboX fanboy by the way) and I mentioned that Rare got sold to Nintendo. He was going like 'Ha ha, proof that Nintendo can't compete.' We were doing some friendly exchanges, and I remember the statement that Rare was going to release 5 games in 2.5 years. He went "Watch, those games will put Nintendo in their grave." Seeing as how he wasn't familiar with the Rare works I decided to put his money where his mouth is. I bet him 500 dollars that Rare will NOT release 5 games in 2.5 years. And to be a good sport, I'll add 6 months making 5 games in 3 years. He seemingly went mum and changed the topic.

Here we are 1 year later, and Rare has delivered nothing(Its a great read by the way. So concise.). Seeing as how XboX has been catering to the older gamer, I really don't see good sales for Grabbed by the Ghoulies or Kameo. Chances are they will pass it off as kiddy.

Perfect Dark? I'm going to say that it will bomb. Why you may ask? One phrase: Halo 2. Just about anyone worth their XBoX will eat that game up and play for months to come. They'll go 'Perfect what? Sorry, I got a 32 player deathmatch on Halo 2, don't have time for some toony FPS.' Unless its compatible with XboX Live...

In any case, I do wish the folks at Rare best of luck. They have familes to feed, and some of the employees had no say in the matter. Keep on Truckin!
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Offline ThePerm

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2003, 10:10:01 PM »
heehehe i was just talkign about rare to a friedn...i kinda have this theory.....Rare muilked Nintendo for all it was wroth...getting paid alot of money for its work....but taking forever on games. Well now they haev a bigger money supplier...hmm lets take out tiem and we'll still get paid.
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Offline Deguello

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2003, 12:43:53 AM »
Rare was very close to me at one point in time.  I always get this sullen and sad feeling every time I think about them now, not because they are no longer with Nintendo… but they are no longer themselves.  

During E3 2k3 I was expecting MS and Rare to show off something really special so that they could draw attention to themselves and build up hype.  What I saw was probably THE most unappealing game I have EVER seen this side of No Rules: GET PHAT for the GBA, A game I really didn’t think was all that special on the GC, and what appeared to be a Conker remake, with Live tacked on in lieu of actually making another game.  Color me disenfranchised.  

My almost extreme dislike for Rare nowadays actually started way back in 1999, with DK64.  Now, I’m not like most people who demonize the game, but I thought it had a “been there, played that” feel to it.  What I didn’t know was that some forms of the code from DK64 to B-K were almost identical, even that Ice Key’s data was in DK64 (or so the Rare Witch project [website] reports.)  Even some of the music sounded similar.  It was almost as if this was B-K in a DK skin.  While that may not be a penultimate evil, it does lead to the conclusion that there seems to be a formula from which they made all of their games (save GE, JFG, Blastcorps) from B-K to even parts of StarFox Adventures.  You would think they would cook up something new every once in a while.

Rare did something else that made me dislike them, but what they did is almost despicable.  They lied to their fans through Scribes.  It was one of the Summer 2002 scribes stating (paraphrase) “We are wrapping up Kameo’s development right about now.”  Oh really?  Ever since then, All I have heard about from Rare internally (From the Fatbabies.com forums) is that they lie to their employees, promising payrises to new employees who bust their butts, and giving them very small payrises instead, and they have shady hiring practices.  Now I feel bad for the employees.

About Rare’s profitability to Nintendo being 1.5% in 2k1, they could have easily rectified that number in 2001-early2002.  According to their letters page on Scribes in late2k1-early2k2, their first GBA projects (Diddy Pilot, B-K, SabreWulf) were COMPLETE.  Not “for the most part complete” or “almost finished” but complete, sitting and waiting to be published.  Now either they were lying, which is bad enough, or they WERE complete, and chose not to release them in 2k2, which is worse.  Now you could say that Nintendo was to blame for not publishing B-K and Diddy Pilot, but SabreWulf was was a Rare-only game.  What stopped them?

I have a few complaints and grievances about Rare left…  Conker’s Bad Fur Day was an above average platformer with British humor and popculture references all over the place.  After the jokes get old (which they do) the game really doesn’t shine much.  The game took 4 years to make, changing designs almost every year, and the result is the equivalent of a slightly substance-filled spoof movie.  Yahoo.  That’s just what I thought, because I thought the original design of Conker had much more character.  And that’s not the last time Rare forsook character design.  Dinosaur Planet had one of the most interesting character designs I have ever seen, then they cheaped out and threw StarFox in the mix for absolutely no reason.  I originally thought Nintendo asked them to Put StarFox in there, but I remember that Nintendo didn’t interfere with Conker and PD and to a lesser extent Banjo-Tooie (very risqué comments) in any way.  And in the end, I saw a formulaic Zelda-ish game with no… like… soul.  That’s the only way I can describe it.

I know this is a lengthy read but in my mind I have been doting on this issue for the past year.  I just had to get it off my chest…



P.S. I notice that the GbtG box says “from the makers of DKC and B-K”, and the demo reel in the Xbox kiosk disc says “from the makers of GE007 and PD.”  Are they gonna milk their entire heritage for Ghoulies?
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Offline Gup

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2003, 03:24:24 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: thepoga
look guys. rare is NOT the rare that we all know and love. Sure they make great games even now... in several years each! seriously, ALOT of game companies can make the same level of goodness in the amount of time that rare gets if u think about it.


h=have, np=never played
1996
Killer Instinct Gold - h
1997
Blast Corps - np
Diddy Kong Racing - h
Goldeneye 007 - h
1998
Banjo-Kazooie - h
1999
Donkey Kong 64 - h
Jetforce Gemini - h
2000
Banjo-Tooie - np
Perfect Dark - h
2001
Conker's Bad Fur Day - h
2002
StarFox Adventures - h

11 games in 7 years.  That's way more than anything that Silicon Knights, Retro Studios, Hal. Laboratory, or EAD can do combined and I'm sure after they got used to developing for GCN after SFA, they'd be dishing out even more.  
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2003, 03:33:16 AM »
Gup, EAD puts out half that many games in a year. Retro's only been around for 2 years and nearly ALL their games were cancelled. And you'll notice they were only putting out one or two games a year towards the end. On top of that, those games just weren't selling. What would you do if you were Nintendo and realised you were putting way more money into Rare than you were getting back?
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2003, 04:06:22 AM »
EAD's credit list since 1996

-Super Mario 64
-Mole Mania(GB)
-Wave Race 64
-Mario Kart 64
-StarFox 64
-Yoshi's Story
-1080 Snowboarding
-F-Zero X
-Pokemon Stadium
-Ocarina of Time
-Pokemon Stadium(Japan Only)
-Majora's Mask
-Pokemon Stadium(Everyone)
-Hamtaro(GBC)
-Pokemon Stadium G/S
-Animal Forest
-Hamtaro: Ham Hams Unite (GBC)
-Luigi's Mansion
-Pikmin
-Animal Crossing(Animal Forest +)
-Hamtaro: Ham Hams Unite (GBA)
-Super Mario Sunshine
-Wind Waker

Those are the games that are out.  I think Rare did pretty well considering their team is much smaller than EAD.
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Offline The Omen

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2003, 05:37:01 AM »
Quote

h=have, np=never played
1996
Killer Instinct Gold - h
1997
Blast Corps - np
Diddy Kong Racing - h
Goldeneye 007 - h
1998
Banjo-Kazooie - h
1999
Donkey Kong 64 - h
Jetforce Gemini - h
2000
Banjo-Tooie - np
Perfect Dark - h
2001
Conker's Bad Fur Day - h
2002
StarFox Adventures - h


That list certainly looks impressive, until you realize this:  

Killer Instinct-supposed to be a launch title-delayed
Goldeneye-delayed over 18 months
BK-delayed 6 months
Dk64-delayed
Perfect Dark-Delayed
Conker-delayed numerous times
Dinosaur planet-delayed numerous times

And thats horrendous.  I;'m sure all those games were delayed at some point, but i remember those listed.  That was the main problem with Rare, waiting years for games they announced
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Offline Jdub03

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RE: Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2003, 06:11:51 AM »
Out of this list I would only give credit to four games for originality.  The rest are uninspired and rehashed concepts.  Even perfect dark was a complete copy of an earlier game.  The story line was so cheesy... " An alien named elvis who talks like bert and ernie."  Come on this isnt a saturday morning cartoon special.  For those who would like to shoot me burn my corpse and send it to the sun, this is only my opinion which i am entitled to speak.  I loved rare(emphasis on LOVED), but you cannot  compare them to silicon knights and retro studios.    
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Offline Cap

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2003, 11:23:50 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Jdub03
I loved rare(emphasis on LOVED), but you cannot  compare them to silicon knights and retro studios.


no, you cant. thats becouse both retro and silicon knights have done ONE game for nintendo. for all we know they could both turn out just like rare. retro had to have every single other game they were working on cancelled to get metroid prime to the point it was, and that was with heavy involvement from nintendo. silicon knights managed to produce what i consider(only my opinion) an average title in what, 4 years time?

i dont really miss rare that much, but they managed to make alot of great games. perfect dark and banjo kazooie are my personal favorites, and perfect dark is still the best fps i've ever played. despite some(if not most) of their games being fairly uninnovative, they were still great games, and there were lots of them compared to a total of two games from retro and silicon knights. your comparison isnt fair in my opinion.

Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2003, 11:38:52 AM »
Bill- that's over twice as many games, out of one development studio. That's not even counting the other R&D's.

Quote

Did you know that the N64 hi-res pack was produced just for two lousy Rare games?


I assume you're talking about the expansion pack, in which case I do remember a certain Zelda game out of Nintendo requiring it (which is currently my second favorite game, after OoT).

Anyway, Cap sums up my feelings on the situation pretty nicely. While I LOVE both Eternal Darkness and Metroid Prime, I LOVED Goldeneye. Then again, in my eyes, saying Retro or Silicon Knights turn out to be like Rare is a huge compliment in my book. While I disagree that Perfect Dark is the best console FPS (I personally like Goldeneye and TS2 more, but just a little), I have loved them ever since DKC on the SNES.
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Offline WackerJr

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RE: Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2003, 01:36:50 PM »
One reason I expect that Rare have not produced anything on the X-Box is because they've got to get used to programming on a new console. It took Nintendo and other companies over a year (in many cases, exceptions for the likes of Rogue Leader) to produce games for the GameCube in the beginning as they were getting used to the new hardware, as I believe Rare probably are too.

On the GBA front, they've always said about getting a publisher for the game sorted out, so it may have been out of their control.

I didn't realise the part about lying to fans, the only other time where it appears that they haven't been entirely honest with their fans is the old "Stop N Swap" from Banjo-Kazooie to Banjo-Tooie (which I am still very interested in!)

I am still a big Rare fan though, I enjoy their humour (although being British probably helps!) and I am looking forward to seeing what they produce. Although the way things currently stand it looks like they need to do more to prove that the Microsoft deal was truly worth it.

Offline Jdub03

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RE: Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2003, 02:00:28 PM »
Rare is... I mean was a very good company.  Back in the snes/early to middle 64 days.  The games that I would compliment them on would have to be donkey kong(one and two).  The rest were crap sequels.  Even donkey kong 64 was a banjo kazooie impersonator.  Even though Ive played through BK I hated it.  Killer instinct was good back when it first came out. The last and probably at the top of the list would have to be 007.  This was one of their games that actually further defined the genre.  Anything else that came from them was Average or half past CRAP.  I used to glorify Rare.  I even hated nintendo when they sold them, and swore I would fire my cube for an xbox.  I still own only a cube and will continue to until the next gen of systems.  I understand exactly what nin was doing... Getting rid of old wrinkly outdated crap(No JK But you get my point).  They became an outdated company.
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Offline Hostile Creation

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RE:Rare: A Year Later
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2003, 02:03:54 PM »
Donkey Kong for SNES was good.  Killer Instinct was cool.  SFA was worth finishing, but not much beyond that.  I only played a few of their other games, but all of them sucked.  A lot.  I have no reason to like Rare. . . and as for Retro, I thought Metroid Prime was easily much better than Donkey Kong, Killer Instinct, and SFA combined, so. . . yeah, for now I prefer Retro.
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