Author Topic: METROID PRIME 2 (Read 136248 times)

boggy b · « **Reply #625 on:** January 17, 2005, 10:42:15 AM »

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So.... how do you guys feel about IGN naming Metroid Prime 2 the runner up to Best Graphics (behind only Half-Life 2) and a runner up to Game of the Year with Burnout 3 (Half-Life 2 got GOTY)? I think this just proves IGN XBOX and IGN PS2's immaturity and inability to ignore hype. They rated San Andreas and Halo 2 9.9 and 9.8. They are fine games to be sure, but there is no way the PS2 version of San Andreas deserves a 9.9 with it's clunky controls, technical issues, and pitiful graphics... And this is the third PS2 GTA and it's still not fixed. As for Halo 2, just like the original it is an unfinished, rushed game, and this time there are graphical issues and abnormalities too. Anyway, at least it shows the rest of IGN isn't crazy, because they got all the editors from all IGN sites together to vote on the awards, and they named Metroid Prime 2 the 2nd best looking game of the year (above even DOOM 3, Far Cry, Riddick, and Rome: Total War) and named Metroid Prime 2 in the top 3 overall games of 2004. I want to see the rest of their top ten though, I'm curious as to what order they put the rest of 2004's best games in (Rome: Total War, Far Cry, Halo 2, San Andreas, Snake Eater, Ninja Gaiden, World of Warcraft....).
Oh, and Paper Mario 2 got best RPG. It's been sweeping this award on all sites...

What's the problem here? MP2 got second best graphics of the year and runner up for game of the year. I don't see anything wrong (?).

Uglydot · « **Reply #626 on:** January 17, 2005, 11:03:51 AM »

To say Metroid Prime 2 had better graphics than HL2 is just idiocy. Also, what game is best is up to them, if you don't agree, then that is great, it's not YOUR game of the year. It is theirs.

PaLaDiN · « **Reply #627 on:** January 17, 2005, 11:30:45 AM »

"To say Metroid Prime 2 had better graphics than HL2 is just idiocy."

No, not really. I've seen both... granted, HL2 is almost photorealistic... but that also means it's boring to look at after a while.

To me it's a matter of art style, and MP2 trumps HL2 in that regard.

Gamebasher · « **Reply #628 on:** January 17, 2005, 11:34:42 AM »

Doh! Ok, let´s put this discussion to rest. Paladin, I will assure you that many do like the orginal Prime over this sequel! The IGN news article "Prime outpeforms Echoes" say it all.

470,000 copies of Prime 2 after it´s launch to market, but the original sold 722,000 copies in the same period! It has now sold over 1 million. IGN thinks that the lower sales numbers for the sequel, is due to it being designated for an older demographic! Do you know what I think? I think that, yes, it has to do with the game being designated for an older demographic, but also that would mean it would be more difficult to play, which is exactly what it is! Older players demand more difficulty, they think, so they up the difficulty and alienate the younger players who can´t follow anylonger. Or to whose parents it is too scary looking, so that it is not bought. Of course, there are many reasons. But I just mentioned some of them.

That leaves me feeling that, that type of game belongs more on an x-box than a GameCube! It is too mature! Little kids will pee their pants, playing through it! So why did Nintendo allow this dark theme and this level of difficulty? To attract the adult gamers, and leave out the younger ones? I am sure there were scores of younger players who loved the original and wanted to play the sequel but didn´t because they were scared off! Can´t prove it, but I feel that!!

X-box was from the start a gameconsole with mostly adult games that families with young kids would never allow into their homes. That was not, and will never be, Nintendo´s domain - thank heaven! So, to me, MP2 is for adults, and not kids or those with a childish heart (like myself). So I think that they let Retro shoot themselves in the foot by making a Metroid Prime sequel too difficult for good measure, alienating the core audience of the GCN: the kids! Up next is Resident Evil 4! Many families will deselect that one, too! Why? Because it is too scary! And probably also too difficult.

They could have just lowered the difficulty a bit more, included a few of the awesome MP1 weapons and it would have sold more, in my opinion!

The sales numbers always tell their own little story! I really think I am right, you know! If not completely right, I am still right around there!

Bill Aurion · « **Reply #629 on:** January 17, 2005, 11:37:23 AM »

The IGN news article "Prime outpeforms Echoes" say it all.

But it truely is a poor example...Echoes had more competition and it's also not counting people that bought Prime expecting a Halo-like experience and finding something different, thus not buying the sequel...

boggy b · « **Reply #630 on:** January 17, 2005, 11:44:11 AM »

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Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
"To say Metroid Prime 2 had better graphics than HL2 is just idiocy."

No, not really. I've seen both... granted, HL2 is almost photorealistic... but that also means it's boring to look at after a while.

To me it's a matter of art style, and MP2 trumps HL2 in that regard.

Ahhh, truley the words of someone who's never played HL2 all the way though. Or indeed, much at all.
Screenshot 1
Screenshot 2
Screenshot 3
(These are screenshots that are on my photobucket account, not linked from some other gaming website)
Half Life 2 is simply oozing with artistic merit.

Besides, if the Best Graphics award was based primarily on artistic merit, then World of WarCraft would trump everything.

PaLaDiN · « **Reply #631 on:** January 17, 2005, 11:58:59 AM »

"IGN thinks that the lower sales numbers for the sequel, is due to it being designated for an older demographic!"

No, actually, the quote is "Some analysts believe that the lower sales count for Metroid Prime 2 is a direct result of a Nintendo that has largely skewed its games for a younger audience and alienated many older players. " Meaning that Nintendo traditionally releases games for younger demographics, so MP2 did not fit in well. MP1 also suffered from that "problem". It has nothing to do with difficulty. They are not comparing the games in that sentence. They are not saying "MP2 is for older games than MP1, which is why it sold worse"... they are saying "MP2 is for older gamers than the Cube's demographic, which is why it sold badly". Nowhere in the article does it mention difficulty. Your whole premise is flawed.

Besides, do you really think people actually buy games based on difficulty? Have you ever seen a game boast "easy enough for younger players" on the packaging? When people discuss games with each other, is the first thing they mention how hard the games are? Have you ever heard anybody say "man, have you heard about the new Metroid? Don't buy it, it's too hard". It doesn't click with me. I just can't see your logic, at all.

"Ahhh, truley the words of someone who's never played HL2 all the way though."

You got me there.

I'll give you the second screenshot, sure... but the first and third are not artistic, they're technical. The thing about MP2 is that it does so much with so little... HL2 does a lot of impressive technical work, but in my opinion, based on what I've seen so far, there is no artistic merit. Graphically, it just does what countless other games have done, except more realistically.

"Besides, if the Best Graphics award was based primarily on artistic merit, then World of WarCraft would trump everything."

Yeah, I don't understand that either. I'm thinking it's because some aspects of WoW are just painful to look at... MP2 suffers from no such thing.

Gamefreak · « **Reply #632 on:** January 17, 2005, 08:57:08 PM »

Who said Metroid Prime 2 had better graphics than HL2? How did this argument even get started? Learn how to read. You guys seem to think I'm am angry at IGN for not making MP2 win, when I'm clearly showing my surprise that it did as well as it did, get runner up in the two most competitive categories.

boggy b · « **Reply #633 on:** January 18, 2005, 06:17:38 AM »

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I'll give you the second screenshot, sure... but the first and third are not artistic, they're technical. The thing about MP2 is that it does so much with so little... HL2 does a lot of impressive technical work, but in my opinion, based on what I've seen so far, there is no artistic merit. Graphically, it just does what countless other games have done, except more realistically.

Like I said, clearly the words of someone who hasn't played HL2. HL2 is dripping with artistic merit. City 17 is a perfect distillation of Eastern Europe, mixed with the remarkable alien structures of the Combine. Look at the Citadel, the huge blue structure extending into the clouds. How is there 'no artistic merit' in that shot? The winding coast roads of Highway 17 are desolate and harsh, owing to the paler palette and sparse vegitation. Half Life 2 is not intended to look realistic, and it doesn't. It is, however, nearly perfect in artistic regards.

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Yeah, I don't understand that either. I'm thinking it's because some aspects of WoW are just painful to look at... MP2 suffers from no such thing.

But talking artisctly, World of WarCraft is the best game this year, bar none. If 'artistic merit' should be the main criteria of graphics, then Katamari Damacy would have a pretty good chance of beating Metroid Prime 2! Instead, it is far far more logical to include both criteria, technicality and artistic, and pick a game that best represents them. This year, that game was by far and away Haf Life 2.

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Who said Metroid Prime 2 had better graphics than HL2? How did this argument even get started? Learn how to read. You guys seem to think I'm am angry at IGN for not making MP2 win, when I'm clearly showing my surprise that it did as well as it did, get runner up in the two most competitive categories.

Well I misunderstood you then, I thought you were miffed that MP2 came second to HL2 and third out of Best Game.

mantidor · « **Reply #634 on:** January 18, 2005, 06:40:48 AM »

Ive played both HL2 and MP2 completly. Sure HL2 has the technical merit of almost photo realistic enviroments, and the facial expressions were awesome (I was left waiting for Freeman's face though), but I have to agree with PaLaDiN, at many points I felt the enviroment was boring precisely because it was too real.

"Half Life 2 is not intended to look realistic, and it doesn't."

Sorry but I think not even you actually believe this. Its pretty obvious valve wanted it to be as realistic as posible... this statement is just mind boogling O_o

boggy b · « **Reply #635 on:** January 18, 2005, 08:43:46 AM »

Let me rephrase; the graphics are supposed to be real looking. However, the environments themselves are not supposed to be 'real' environments.

mantidor · « **Reply #636 on:** January 18, 2005, 02:27:23 PM »

I see, this can be seen specially towards the end of the game, but at the beggining (at least for me) the "OMG it looks so real !!1!" feeling started to slowly fade until I really didnt care at all about the graphics, until those final stages, which were awesome ^_^

PaLaDiN · « **Reply #637 on:** January 18, 2005, 07:20:27 PM »

"Look at the Citadel, the huge blue structure extending into the clouds. How is there 'no artistic merit' in that shot?"

Ooh, a big building. That hasn't been done before. I applaud the artistry, it leaves me awestruck.

Come on man, you're reaching. Listen to yourself.

Not a single HL2 screenshot I've seen, not a single HL2 situation I've played through, have I loved even nearly as much as MP2's fortress. And as for enemy design, it's not even debatable. Don't try and debate it.

Maybe I'm wrong. In that case, prove me wrong. Impress me. I'm not impossible to impress. WoW impresses me artistically... the guys at Blizzard are insanely talented. Half-Life 2 does not.

Don't just tell me, show me.

Edit: just remembered there's an art book for HL2... I'm interested in that now. Is it actually any good?

Gamefreak · « **Reply #638 on:** January 19, 2005, 12:23:42 AM »

I'm just going to say as far as art goes, Metroid Prime 2 and World of Warcraft had the best art direction last year. Same thing in 2002 with Metroid Prime and Warcraft III.

But, as for graphics from a technical point of view, while Metroid Prime 2 and World of Warcraft each have their own strengths (lets see Half-Life 2 without loading times) the advanced engine of Half-Life 2 simply outdoes them. Although...the lighting is inferior to DOOM 3 and Resident Evil 4.

boggy b · « **Reply #639 on:** January 19, 2005, 06:51:09 AM »

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Originally posted by: PaLaDiN
"Look at the Citadel, the huge blue structure extending into the clouds. How is there 'no artistic merit' in that shot?"

Ooh, a big building. That hasn't been done before. I applaud the artistry, it leaves me awestruck.

Come on man, you're reaching. Listen to yourself.

Not a single HL2 screenshot I've seen, not a single HL2 situation I've played through, have I loved even nearly as much as MP2's fortress. And as for enemy design, it's not even debatable. Don't try and debate it.

Maybe I'm wrong. In that case, prove me wrong. Impress me. I'm not impossible to impress. WoW impresses me artistically... the guys at Blizzard are insanely talented. Half-Life 2 does not.

Don't just tell me, show me.

Edit: just remembered there's an art book for HL2... I'm interested in that now. Is it actually any good?

Seriously, you're a hopeless case. I show you artistic merit and you deny that it's there. I could go through and show you ever example of the excellent art direction in the game but I get the feeling that your reply would be a resolute, fingers-in-ears, 'LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING! METROID PRIME 2 HAS BETTER LA LA LA!'.

Hostile Creation · « **Reply #640 on:** January 19, 2005, 07:55:02 AM »

Really, boggy b, none of those three shots have much artistic merit. The landscape is well designed, but it's all been thought of before. They're copies of what were.

As for the big building, that shows the true artistic colors of the designers. It's dull and simple; I could have designed something better and with ease. It's about as nondescript as the Halo environments.

Metroid Prime has amazing artistic direction. I haven't seen World of Warcraft. Half-Life 2, from what you show us, is stretching for average.
I'm not saying it's not impressive, because it is, and the street scenes are well designed. But I can't really consider that artistic.

PaLaDiN · « **Reply #641 on:** January 19, 2005, 09:29:38 AM »

"Seriously, you're a hopeless case. I show you artistic merit and you deny that it's there. I could go through and show you ever example of the excellent art direction in the game but I get the feeling that your reply would be a resolute, fingers-in-ears, 'LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING! METROID PRIME 2 HAS BETTER LA LA LA!'."

Which is why other people are agreeing with me. You're all talk. I know art when I see it... that is not art. Don't insult my senses by calling the first and third screenshots art. They just look like boring mundane photographs.

And thanks for belittling me. Apparently your judgement of character is as good as your judgement of art.

boggy b · « **Reply #642 on:** January 19, 2005, 10:15:14 PM »

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As for the big building, that shows the true artistic colors of the designers. It's dull and simple; I could have designed something better and with ease.

A laughable claim. The citadel is design specifically to look like that. It's not dull, it's an enormous metallic blue obelisk sticking out of the centre of an east european town. It is simply, but in the same way that, for example, the Bilbao Guggenheim is. Simplicity and elegancy are not a sign of poor design, merely restrained design. Not everything has to be fancy and overwrought, especially if it does not fit in with the context of the game.

To use an example, PaLaDiN said absolutely, that MP2 has better enemy design. See, the problem here is that the enemies need to be relative to the environment you put them it. Half Life 2's overwatch were designed beautifully given the space they were placed in (an enslaved city). They evoke a feel of suppression. Had Gordon Freeman been running through the streets of City 17 killing space pirates, they would have been out of place, which would have been poor art design. Vice versa, place Combine overwatch in MP2 and they look stylistically wrong relative to the environments.

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Originally posted by: PaLaDiN

Which is why other people are agreeing with me. You're all talk. I know art when I see it... that is not art. Don't insult my senses by calling the first and third screenshots art. They just look like boring mundane photographs.

Notice how every other website on the net hails HL2's art design as the best of the year? Ever heard of the four letter word 'bias'?
Gamespot, Best Graphics, Artistic:
http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/features/all/bestof2004/day2w_16.html
IGN.com, Best Graphics:
http://bestof.ign.com/2004/overall/13.html
I think the problem here is that you refuse to accept that the design used in Half Life 2, subtle and refined rather than in-your-face, constitutes art design. Also, art design goes beyond level design. It extends to stuff such as animation, texture work and the 'life', so to speak, breathed into the world via the artistic properties of the game.

Hostile Creation · « **Reply #643 on:** January 20, 2005, 06:29:33 AM »

"Notice how every other website on the net hails HL2's art design as the best of the year? Ever heard of the four letter word 'bias'?"
Funny, how those two sentences are coincidentally juxtaposed.

My point is, making a street is all fine and dandy, and it certainly requires artistic talent and I recognize that, but it's not near the amount of creativity held within Metroid Prime 2. I can appreciate subtle art and even minimalism, but that doesn't mean I have to be impressed by that citadel screenshot. Even in terms of minimalism that's uninnovative. I've seen nearly identical rooms in other games. Take Metroid Prime 2, for example. A room very similar to that is in the fortress; it manages to be both rather simple yet more provocative. Subtle differences.

I haven't seen the animation in the game, so I'm not sure I can say anything about that. I considered the game, but I have way too many games I'm interested in right now and I'm still unsure as to whether I'll get a job or not this semester. In short, I think the art in Half-Life 2 is fine, but the artwork of Metroid Prime impresses me much, much more.

boggy b · « **Reply #644 on:** January 20, 2005, 07:04:26 AM »

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Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
In short, I think the art in Half-Life 2 is fine, but the artwork of Metroid Prime impresses me much, much more.

And thusly you have hit the nail of my argument on the head. You can think what you want about the art styles, but they are both there and neither of them is weak. Personally, I feel that HL2's is just as strong as MP2's but rather than being brash and in-your-face it's subtle and thought out.

What I take objection to is the claim that HL2 lacks artistic merit because every environment just 'copies' real life and that even the stuff that is designed is 'plain and boring'.

vudu · « **Reply #645 on:** January 20, 2005, 08:05:03 AM »

You two have completely killed the Metroid Prime 2 thread. Congrats.

EDIT: In an effort to try to get some conversations going about Metroid Prime, does anyone besides me really hate that Super Missiles use five regular missiles instead of its own ammo supply? I found myself never using regular missiles once I acquired the Super Missile.

Also, did anyone use the Seeker Missile other than for enemies/bosses/puzzles where it was required? I found it way too awkward to use in the heat of battle unless it was required. Hopefully MP3 (on Revolution) will fix this problem by making the Seeker Missile easier to use.

Gamebasher · « **Reply #646 on:** January 20, 2005, 01:06:19 PM »

So, Paladin, you think my premise is flawed?

My premise, my supposition, is that I think that because the game is designated for older gamers - teenage and up-crowd in the words of the IGN article (which to me spells older gamers than the kids Nintendo is seeking to wow mostly) - this would alienate the kids! That´s what I presupposed in my reply to the post. IGN says that Nintendo marketed that game for the teenage and up-crowd, and that means from the age 13 and up! But there are kids as young as 8 who likes to play Metroid on the GBA, and surely also likes to play it on the GCN! Let´s take the entire quote, so we get the parts which you left out:

"Some analysts believe that the lower sales count for Metroid Prime 2 is a direct result of a Nintendo that has largely skewed its games for a younger audience and alienated many older players. The T-rated Echoes, a dark and eerily atmospheric shooter with complex puzzles, was marketed to the teenage and up crowd, but anticipation for the product never seemed to gain an overwhelming amount of steam with the demographic."

I emphasize this part of above: Some analysts believe that the lower sales count for Metroid Prime 2 is a direct result of a Nintendo that has largely skewed its games for a younger audience and alienated many older players.

I put above quote in Italics, because I feel it´s curious to write such a thing, since to me it´s just the opposite which is the case! So I think that those analyst are wrong. They are also only some analysts, out of many analysts in the world gaming press. So they are not nesscesarily right! Which is my opinion of them.

You then wrote: "They are not saying "MP2 is for older games than MP1, which is why it sold worse"... No, Paladin THEY are not saying that - I am saying that! I am saying that, because that is how it appears! It´s difficulty is such that not only kids will have trouble with it (in addition to being scared of it), many others will too! So my premise is NOT flawed. You make it look like it is, by interpreting it in your own way!

I quote my reply again:

"IGN thinks that the lower sales numbers for the sequel, is due to it being designated for an older demographic! Do you know what I think? I think that, yes, it has to do with the game being designated for an older demographic, but also that would mean it would be more difficult to play, which is exactly what it is! Older players demand more difficulty, they think, so they up the difficulty and alienate the younger players who can´t follow anylonger. Or to whose parents it is too scary looking, so that it is not bought. Of course, there are many reasons. But I just mentioned some of them.

Notice that I wrote: "Do you know what I think?", NOT "Do you know what they think?"

There is a big difference there! And I really feel that I know what I am writing. So I conclude that you are wrong, if you call my premise "flawed".

This is for Kingvudu: I agree that the people who start talking about Halo 2 too much are way out of line. This is Metroid Prime 2 thread, not a Halo 2 one!

Hostile Creation · « **Reply #647 on:** January 20, 2005, 02:00:58 PM »

Half-Life 2, and we were doing an artistic comparison of the graphics.

mantidor · « **Reply #648 on:** January 20, 2005, 02:18:48 PM »

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Originally posted by: kingvudu
Also, did anyone use the Seeker Missile other than for enemies/bosses/puzzles where it was required? I found it way too awkward to use in the heat of battle unless it was required. Hopefully MP3 (on Revolution) will fix this problem by making the Seeker Missile easier to use.

I find them to be very usefull in certain situation: the ing emperor in his last stage, you remember how he uses to avoid any type of damage? so instead of throwing and throwing missiles until I could hit him I stacked them up and release them the exact moment he opened his mouth, voila! he showed weakness to ligh or dark beam instantly and of course while I stacked the missiles I imagined Samus saying some sort of name for the attack, thing thats very common in japanese games and animations, kinda like "super missile combo attack!"... ok Im not very creative when naming japanese combat moves, but you get my point.

PaLaDiN · « **Reply #649 on:** January 20, 2005, 02:51:00 PM »

Gamebasher... sorry, I think I misunderstood you.

You said "Paladin, I will assure you that many do like the orginal Prime over this sequel! The IGN news article "Prime outpeforms Echoes" say it all."... so I thought you were agreeing with the analysts and adding your own interpretation.

Sorry to have made you waste that whole post.

But then my original attack still stands... you're assuming the majority doesn't like the difficulty and you have shown nothing to back this up. I thought you were addressing this with IGN's article.

boggy b: If you actually have any screenshots you think are impressive from Half-Life 2, PM them to me. You say all this stuff about the art in HL2, but the fact of the matter is that you have shown nothing to back up your words, nothing you have shown or said so far has impressed me, and I'm not the only one. Our "argument" is over.

News:

Author Topic: METROID PRIME 2 (Read 136248 times)