Topic: The Orville

[oohhboy]

They have the ongoing Kylon war to deal with as well as the alliance with the Krill who have their own enemy. A Borg would be rather redundant and the plate is full.

Yaphit is quite expensive so any new reoccurring alien won't be that complex. We have seen other aliens but they haven't shown their culture much. The council chamber had quite a few and some one off like the porn dealer, singing flower.

Moclans no doubt have a lot of splinter groups and we have already seen their seemingly monolithic culture not quite what it seems. A subspecies would be rather silly waste of resources and visual concept.

I wouldn't mind going to Earth for one episode too see what's going on. Everything can't be as smooth sailing especially after an averted existential event.

[ThePerm]

Well I guess if they did next season like the last it will be the same old ****.

Maybe the threat starts off as a small threat and builds up? The nice part about an episodic show is they can have a villain and then have a few character building episodes and then have a different villain and then return to the other villain.

Also, Isaac is basically his own species now. When is he going to start reproducing? If I were Isaac I'd build a double and then drop it down on some empty planet and start replicating. That seems like the most logical way to defeat the Kylon.

[oohhboy]

We haven't seen the other big player alluded to in season finale.

Each season has only been 12 - 14 episodes so far which means it has a very tight script. That's what I am referring to when I say the plate is full. They will build in new villains, but they aren't going to drop in the Borg or species 8472 on top of the ongoing interstellar war.

Isaac building an entire "species" of Kylon to fight Kylon raises so many ethical, story and logistical problems, so out of character only a hack writer would do it out of cheap drama. Issac is a Kylon, being morally/culturally/individually different doesn't make you a new species. It doesn't even make you a different race.

The peeps at the Orville are too good to second guess or theorise much on. The idea we could keep up with or out think them like any other show seems, quaint. These are the guys who managed to replace a fan favourite character without a grain of backlash or making her an expy.

[ThePerm]

If ethical questions are raised it's good TV.  Isaac building an entire species backfiring would be even better. Also, robot genocide by other robots raises some interesting ethical questions.

I would plant the seeds this upcoming season and let them germinate until like season 5. Like maybe there is a dangerous mission that Isaac has to do on some dangerous planet, Mercer worries about losing him, so he builds a secondary avatar. But maybe that avatar gets left on Planet after the mission is over. They come back 3 years later in another season when it is safe and there is a whole planet full of them. There was already something similar to this on Mad Idolatry.

Isaac is his own species. He's the offspring of an existing species, but he's evolved past them in ethics regarding organic beings. From a software perspective he's a different build. Information and data can evolve in ways similar to speciation. This is why not everyone speaks the same language. Cultures have speciation, and even intercourse. Also, in the back of his programming, he's going to have the drive to observe the universe, but he can't do it all from the Orville.

As far as my organic borg idea. I would set it up through multiple episodes. So again, they would be on some planet doing some sort of mission. Someone like Grimes encounters a little animal that bites him. He neglects to mention it and becomes infected. They end up on some other planet and he infects someone else. Maybe it's a temporary bug, but when it matures it reproduces in 3s. Maybe during the day of maturation the host acts strange. So theoretically it could infect a whole planet. By the time the Orville notices it's already infected several planets/starships.


This is all fan fiction. Hypothetically, what would you do to expand the existing universe?

[oohhboy]

I wouldn't say he has evolved past them and became a different specie because he has better/agreeable ethics. I have the feeling you don't quite have a handle on the meaning of 'specie'. I am a different build number than you, does that make me more evolved than you? Not human anymore? Are Irish and Japanese a different species with one being not human? Race, ethnicity, nationally, perception, intelligence, political views in no way define a species or even a sub-species.

There is ethical questions and there is bad writing. Out the gate there would be a scale problem, time, space, materials. Why would an Isaac be able to out produce any other Kylon, grow enough over 1-2 years to influence the war on such a scale. If they were that desperate to win the war, things that dire, cloning Isaac wouldn't work remotely fast enough. It would also be completely out of character for the Orville crew to engineer a race to fight a war on their behalf. Ed went to great lengths to secure Isaac's freedom and won't turn around suddenly to enslave another.

They won't do an inadvertently plant seed and come back to find an army plot. It's won't be a Von Numan machine common enemy that turns the Kylon(It's doesn't solve the Kylon conflict). It's deus ex Machina resolution. Sure you could "Foreshadow" (The crew has no idea how to build more Isaac), but the crew would have nothing to do with it's growth a massive no-no. It is the characters, relationships, believability and continuity that make the show great, not because things happen because you need them to for plot. If you want that there is another show I would highly recommend you not watch.

Tomorrow Tomorrow Tomorrow and Road Not Taken isn't just awesome because it looked great, it's how the different yet same characters play out their relationships, our attachment to them. Who cares how epic the action is if you don't care about the characters, it's empty.

John Wick would be a shadow of a movie if we didn't care about John Wick, know him as a person, same with Rambo, every great action movie. Commando is great because we care about Matrix, it's why we have that cheesy opening with him eating ice cream.

Mad Idolatry is a very different situation and it wasn't about solving a problem, it was commentary on absurdity of religion especially with Christ like figures or idols. Kelly's growth, the realisation it is not about her.

My expectation is for the Union to build a larger alliance that falls apart after the peace takes hold giving you new antagonists. There is a real possibility someone close to Ed might do a "In the pale Moonlight" tricking another species into the war. While the deception was never revealed it gave us Sisko's deleted log, one of DS9's most hard hitting scenes. Birthday cake/Majority Rule has looked into the nature of lies, when it might be justified or even have an answer to the ethics.

Whatever it is it has to be organic to the narrative, it can't just be simple foreshadowing or serendipity or a hand wave or Chevok's gun, there has to be development. If Isaac had switch sides without Claire relationship it would be very unsatisfying, unmotivated, a flip of the coin to borrow from the **** show that is GoT.

If you really what to find out what might happen in season 3 and beyond have a look at current storylines, people and objects we have seen. A Union war with Moclans or a civil war is more than possible breaking the Kylon stalemate. We have plenty of potential Krill interaction. Other more technological advanced civilisations might require aid with questionable/objectionable conditions like the Zoo. Pira's device assuming it's still in Ed's office draw although unlikely as they haven't shown it since. We know little about Salayan. The Hellraiser aliens. We have so much to explore without piling more on the plate.

[ThePerm]

I would say "Evolve past" was not the best choice of words. Though in the case of having a preference against genocide I would fancy that as the superior end of the spectrum. In the case of the things you mentioned: race, ethnicity, and nationality are social constructs. They're not real things. Though their existence as a meme could be seen as a living construct. I think of the phrase "the fear of God" in a more novel way.

The biological information of any individual human is too similar to be considered divergent. 0.1% Is too negligible to be considered a speciation. In biology a species is most generally agreed upon to have diverged when they can't breed with each other and provide viable offspring. Dogs and Wolves are the same species despite a culturally constructed distinction. Donkeys and Horses are different species because they produce a Mule, which cannot reproduce offspring. In coinage a specie is a specific strike up of mold. Dimes are a different species than Pennies. Though the term "specie" is most exclusively used in modern use for describing coins. In the case of androids the primary speciation wouldn't occur in the physical manifestation, but in the data structure. C3p0 doesn't become a different model of android by changing his limb color.

Isaac started off with an information set that would have been a copy of the Kaylon core code. When he left Kaylon and became stationed on the Orville he would have had lapses of communication synching. He used to send reports to the Kaylon in bursts. Because they were in updates he was always diverging from them. He is an intelligent program, so he is updating his software based on new information every second. At the same time the Kaylon on Kaylon 1 are updating every second but probably acting more like a hive intelligence. He could not have been receiving full updates from them, or he would not have diverged. Unlike a biological structure which takes years to evolve a software structure could evolve hourly. By the time he rebelled against the Kaylon he was no longer a compatible program. He's probably already updated his security so they can't just turn him off. The default settings for his eyes isn't even the same color. His settings are blue, while the others are red differentiating him. The change of environment is what caused the speciation. Isaac lived on the Orville and evolved away from them, and they stayed on Kaylon 1 and changed in a different direction. This is all happening internally inside software as opposed to like living on a beach or a mountain.

I imagine there would be some inevitable stuff that follows from the events in season 2, but I already know those will happen. You can't expect the writers to just write solely continuations to previous plots. There will be some addendum material. They will continue existing plotlines, but they will also expand the universe. At most I expect them to spend 4- 5 episodes out of 12-14 episodes on plot continuation episodes, but there will be one offs, and there will be new directions.

[oohhboy]

The Kaylon aren't that monolithic. They clearly have individuality but in a very tight organization, emotion muted buried deep. Once their government(Full direct democracy?) has decided on an action it has 99.9999999999% support.

They wouldn't ask for compliance via emotional threats from Isaac if it was a true hive mind where they are completely interchangeable and could be arbitrary modified, deletable. His evolution and adaptation couldn't be possible if he was nothing but an interface. Nor would they save a copy of Isaac for the Crew to contact. Insisting he somehow is an "Incompatible program" like a mule flies into the face of everything shown.

If I suddenly changed colour, gender or became uncaring am I suddenly not human? If I gained a much greater intelligence beyond you comprehension I am a better human than you? He had a change of view, a new understanding of he world. Character growth doesn't mean he stops being a Kylon or is a better Kylon. He is still a Kylon but he doesn't want to murder everyone, he isn't super racist anymore, he has is own variant of love, he is sentimental.

The "Face" of a Kylon is for our benefit as is Isaac's blue colour.

They will expand the show, but they aren't just going to drop something new massive threat out of nowhere like the Borg or whatever. We have at least two species of aliens on the wings for post Kylon of which we have only glimpsed one. They will always hint it first before they appear.

You're missing on how the show is written thinking I see it as a fully serialised show when it's not. It's a different form of long form story telling, a hybrid. It can be watched individually but the arcs both for characters and plot are interspersed no matter how stand alone an episode might be on the surface. You asked what would come next, that's why I said to look for those little hints, repeated moments, objects.

If you were asking for more, you would be asking me to extrapolate something from nothing, read tea leafs or think I am Seth.

The season finale and Identity was amazing because didn't come out of nowhere, it was teased throughout both seasons and many episodes had setup Kelly for it. Her talk with Gordon in lasting impressions was a massive part of that. It's why the Orville is so good, it weaves small threads into a tapestry. It is consistent with itself, organic in it's story, characters interacts as you would expect if they were real people nor arbitrary skilled at everything nor flawless or have a fig leaf "flaw".

[ThePerm]

I spent the entire day programming. My level of programming has evolved from where it was yesterday.  I'm not wrong in how I see android evolution. You don't agree, but whatever. You're also misunderstanding me in a lot of ways.

The Kaylon aren't that monolithic. They clearly have individuality but in a very tight organization, emotion muted buried deep. Once their government(Full direct democracy?) has decided on an action it has 99.9999999999% support.

They wouldn't ask for compliance via emotional threats from Isaac if it was a true hive mind where they are completely interchangeable and could be arbitrary modified, deletable. His evolution and adaptation couldn't be possible if he was nothing but an interface. Nor would they save a copy of Isaac for the Crew to contact. Insisting he somehow is an "Incompatible program" like a mule flies into the face of everything shown.

That's not how AI works. Incompatible in an AI could mean a difference of opinion. But it could also mean vast divergence. Here's how an intelligent AI works: An AI observes, an AI creates tests, the AI collects the data, based on the total and newest data collection it restructures itself. Then it loops.

At the beginning of any program are a series headers and definitions. These definitions can have a great effect on how a program can act. If I define a variable as a boolean then it means true or false, if I define a variable as an integer I can only use whole numbers, maybe I define a variable as a floating point then I can use decimals, maybe I define a variable as a euler angle then I can use degrees, maybe I define a variable as a sound then it becomes a more complex set of data entirely.

Somewhere along the line The Kaylon defined biological organisms as a threat, while Isaac was able to find that he functioned better working with humans like claire. Also, Isaac said "On my planet when a program is not functioning properly it is deleted" which implies the Japanese phrase  “The nail that sticks out gets hammered down.â€� Any dissent on Kaylon 1 gets you killed. You're not functioning correctly if you don't agree. They treat dissenting opinion like a virus.

It's also worth noting that Isaac spent a crazy amount of time on that planet during Mad Idolatry. That is a lot of program restructuring. He has to be vastly different from them. Again he would not have made himself an individual otherwise. He's as different from the other androids as Johnny #5 is different from his killbot comrades.

It is possible to evolve as a person with an opinion. Say you were a hardcore monarchist, but some new information came to light and you decided you wanted democracy instead. You would have evolved as a person. A key difference between you and an android is an android is not tied to its body. An android can change its body at will.  All it has to do is cut and paste its data into a new avatar. You as an organic meat body do not currently have that luxury yet.

If I suddenly changed colour, gender or became uncaring am I suddenly not human? If I gained a much greater intelligence beyond you comprehension I am a better human than you? He had a change of view, a new understanding of he world. Character growth doesn't mean he stops being a Kylon or is a better Kylon. He is still a Kylon but he doesn't want to murder everyone, he isn't super racist anymore, he has is own variant of love, he is sentimental.

The "Face" of a Kylon is for our benefit as is Isaac's blue colour.

You're applying biological rules to AI. For millions of years there has been no suddenly in human evolution. You're certainly not fucking every minute and producing offspring which supplant you. You're an organic being. Unless you join some body snatchers style collective I wouldn't see you evolving much in a normal age at the natural selection pace. Now you're opinions might evolve, but it takes millions of years for opinions and knowledge of information to change what something is fundamentally as a being. Currently, we're in an age where cybernetics and genetic manipulation though. Our information knowledge has allowed us to change who we are as beings. We can make cats glow in the dark. We've recently done some ethically dank experiments on our own genome in China. We haven't made Brundle flies yet though. But we could. Maybe one day you'll have digital transcendence and you can evolve outside your meaty shell. Evolution isn't an entirely biological thing.

They will expand the show, but they aren't just going to drop something new massive threat out of nowhere like the Borg or whatever. We have at least two species of aliens on the wings for post Kylon of which we have only glimpsed one. They will always hint it first before they appear.

You're missing on how the show is written thinking I see it as a fully serialised show when it's not. It's a different form of long form story telling, a hybrid. It can be watched individually but the arcs both for characters and plot are interspersed no matter how stand alone an episode might be on the surface. You asked what would come next, that's why I said to look for those little hints, repeated moments, objects.

I don't know where you got the idea I would just drop the Borg heavy handedly into the Orville, or that I don't understand episodic programming.  It's serial if you focus on the same characters over and over. This is Star Trek type show. Every week you go somewhere different and explore something new. Maybe this week there is a planet full of blue people, next week is a planet full of people with horns, maybe the next week is a planet where there are two species and one eats the other, the next week focuses on some weird cultural exchange between crew mates. Every week should be something different. If you do a planet with body snatchers you don't call back to it until several episodes later. At most these things would be a threat for a single episode and be called back later in some other season. Star Trek type show villains are more recurring than looming. I tend to dislike shows that keep the same villains. Like Enterprise. Everything stayed interesting until the last season where the show became serial. Then it sort of ended in an annoying way, but for the most part I'd regard the show well because it kept it episodic. The most you would want to see a villain in series is like how the Andorians were. They recur here and there, but they don't linger as the sole threat on the show every epispde. The Andorians were great because as time went on they evolved and became allies. The Kaylons have the reverse run. They started off as a friendly species and transitioned into a foe. Not every episode focused on the Kaylons.

If you were asking for more, you would be asking me to extrapolate something from nothing, read tea leafs or think I am Seth.

Maybe you should take a crack at creative writing before you start calling people hacks and try to shut them down. You're obviously into Star Trek type fiction. What if you were the writer? If you were to land a crew of paramilitary explorers onto a planet, what would you do with them? Where would they go? Who would they meet? What would they learn?

The season finale and Identity was amazing because didn't come out of nowhere, it was teased throughout both seasons and many episodes had setup Kelly for it. Her talk with Gordon in lasting impressions was a massive part of that. It's why the Orville is so good, it weaves small threads into a tapestry. It is consistent with itself, organic in it's story, characters interacts as you would expect if they were real people nor arbitrary skilled at everything nor flawless or have a fig leaf "flaw".

And that's exactly how I had described my fan fiction ideas. That's what I mean by "I would plant the seeds this upcoming season and let them germinate until like season 5."

[oohhboy]

He isn't breeding every minute either or jumping from body to body or redesigning himself. While his mind is transcendent of a physical body his mind is his body, we can grow our minds just like him. You are incorrectly mixing personal growth to biological evolution.

"On my planet when a program is not functioning properly it is deleted" partially runs counter to the actions which always takes precedent. Why was he told to change his name and murder his friends if he was disposable? Why not delete or shoot or run him through a diagnostic?. Why space crewmen, have him read Roots and give loyalty tests? Why mock him with "You will always be alone". It's a hint to something much deeper is going on. They aren't a hive mind. It isn't a pure logic driven tyrannical government. Nor they Skynet.

The difference between his time in Mad Idolatry and the Orville is that he didn't develop an attachment to anyone. Time alone wasn't enough to change him, he came back like he never left. The big thing about Orville is relationships, the characters. Plot and events are meaningless without the crew's interactions. It's fundamental part of Orville's foundation that elevates it beyond just Trek with the serial numbers filed off.

This leads to why the seeding idea is so bad. You can place it as a Checkov's gun the problem is that is not how the show is written, it's not enough. There could be no interaction between the Orville and the planet that would feel natural. When they come back later to find it as a solution to the Kylon problem it's Deus Machina. It's a contrivance to end a plot line, it's lazy. It would be the equivalent of Isaac turning on Kylon without interacting with Claire or doing so because Ed gave an impassioned speech. They like Isaac would be missing motivation. It also throws away all the build up with the Krill.

I mentioned the Borg because you said this:

Hopefully, in the future they'll introduce some new species.

There should be a new villain. There hasn't been anything like the Borg. If I were to do the Borg in Orville I would make it an organic villain. Something like The Thing or the Body Snatchers.

They need to introduce some new friendly species as well. I love how Moclans were a sociological marvel. I think when creating a species that should form the basis of their creation. It isn't so much the species that are different, as it is their culture.

I am not arguing that they won't introduced new aliens, they have done that just about every episode. You haven't pickup that the Moclans already have cultural off shoots that don't see the current direction as the way to go. The traditions now dogma. It's already there bubbling under the surface. Why would you need to create a new species to represent an cultural aspect of an existing in universe alien? Not only would it be beating people over the head it would send a very bad message. "You can't be these people unless you have X genetics". Blacks can't be CEO's, Asians can't be bus drivers except now they are a considered a different species?? Species =/= culture.

What I am getting at is the new big player/villain will be something already mentioned but haven't seen yet. Every big moment of the Orville has been built up over a very long time beyond simple call backs. It's the show's M.O. They don't kill the past, they respect continuity, it's serialisation without serialisation.

What you are asking is different. You are asking what space hole, alien, current social observation or Trek episode they are going draw inspiration from for the season. I can't tell you that. It's information only the writers and Seth would know. You asked the impossible.

We do have data speculate something. The potential Moclan war. The end of the Kylon conflict and revelations from it. There has to be more about the Krill than Avis, who are they fighting? Who are these guy who could hold off the Kylon in the alt-timeline? Who are the other members of the Union? When will we get a deep dive into John's character? Is there more to Salyan than dick head scientists and hot military females, what do they provide to the Union? What is the deal with the porn aliens and what is a Dan? We have a lot of ground to cover that is not Kylon war, space for a new villain.

Blood of the Patriots is a genius episode that likely slipped by you as to what it did. People complained that why didn't Ed and co mourn all those dead red shirts etc. They do but they are represented by a different war. They did this to avoid it being another Kylon episode. They needed to give Yaphit a medal, celebrate the victory over an existential crisis before deflating it with the pain of reality. It's a microcosm at to how the writers think, why the show works. You need to give the writers a lot more credit than you are giving them.

Maybe you should take a crack at creative writing before you start calling people hacks and try to shut them down. You're obviously into Star Trek type fiction. What if you were the writer? If you were to land a crew of paramilitary explorers onto a planet, what would you do with them? Where would they go? Who would they meet? What would they learn?

Is it a character driven? A nameless Ismov parable? Is it completely plot driven where things happen because they must to reach a set point? How long is it? How deep do the characters have to be? What in-universe technological restrictions do I have to content with? Do I have a personal agenda or message I want pushed? Is it a tv show, movie, web short, book, a propaganda article in a magazine?

Dumping people down on a planet or looking at space hole isn't the right direction to write generic Trek. You write up a bunch of characters first, make sure they are people not caricatures or plot devices. Run them through a bunch of problems and extrapolate how they will interact. Then decide an aspect of society as we understand it now, extrapolate it to how it would interact with this new technology, how it might play out if taken to it's logical extreme. What commentary you could make within this context? Will you wander on a tangent to the main issue? ie, examining MAD but take a jaunt into Vietnam, sure they are related historically but how is jungle warfare related to strategic level thinking? What's the scope? Cuban missiles or one man saving the world by ignoring orders.

[ThePerm]

I mentioned the Borg, but I also mentioned the Thing and Body Snatchers. I never meant a species EXACTLY like the Borg. The Thing is interesting because it is possible that the creature operates as a collective, but then again maybe not. The Thing seems to be aware which other beings are things, but without internal knowledge of the inner workings of the Thing I could never be sure if they aren't communicating in some telepathic manner. Individual cells operate frantically in danger. All alliances seem to be broken in the event of personal danger. A real team player would take one for the team.

The body snatchers are the similar. They exhibit both collective and individual behaviors. A body snatcher replicant has absorbed the memories of it's forebeing. It also has memories from eons of time, but I don't know to what extant Body Snatchers exchange information. Maybe they just tell each other what they know and are honest with each other. Or maybe there is some sort of system like bacterial conjugation. It's never explained, because that would be boring in a narrative.

The Thing is also interesting because it takes place in an isolated place and is rather small scale, but it's events could lead to epic catastrophe. I enjoyed the Thing prequel as fan service, but I desire to see a Thing sequel that expands that story like Alien and Aliens.

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As far as Isaac goes. We refer to the Kaylons as a species, but if anything species is a construct in relation to androids. Really their species is android. Product line would be better terminology.  But these are mirroring concepts in semantics. Something starts off from a root and branches in diverging directions. Species works best in this context because it is shorthand for "sentient being from this place"
I'd like to see Isaac encounter an AI from another planet. How do the Kaylon react to androids from another planet?

  The Kaylon are like people who stay in their small home town and never leave and then Isaac goes off and moves to the big city and then he's like one of city folk now. He lives in the city for a while and gets real liberal, but then he comes back to visit and his old mates are a bunch of whiny losers who don't have much going for them and try to bring him down. But like androids.

I'm also not confusing the concepts of evolution and personal growth. Evolution is change over time. Including personal growth. Not exclusively natural selection. I'm not looking at this subject from a wholly materialistic standpoint. A person could evolve into a different being outside of natural selection. If you could upload your consciousness somewhere you'd have the same transcendence as an android. You wouldn't be human still. Transcendence is a different path of evolution. You could also genetically manipulate yourself into a transhuman. That isn't to say in these paths you wouldn't retain features from your past human self. But you really can't do that. so...
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Also, you can't say Isaac didn't develop any attachment to the multiphasic people in Mad Idolotry. Just because it wasn't in exposition didn't mean it didn't happen. He could still mention someone he fancied from that time period in a later episode. The people in the orville aren't any more special than the multiphasic people, but they only have 45 minutes to present a plotline.

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"This leads to why the seeding idea is so bad."

"The season finale and Identity was amazing because didn't come out of nowhere, it was teased throughout both seasons and many episodes had setup Kelly for it. Her talk with Gordon in lasting impressions was a massive part of that. It's why the Orville is so good, it weaves small threads into a tapestry. It is consistent with itself, organic in it's story, characters interacts as you would expect if they were real people nor arbitrary skilled at everything nor flawless or have a fig leaf "flaw"."

Setup IS seeding. You denounce one semantic idea and exalt another. They're the same thing. You want to setup a bunch of trees in your back yard? You plant seeds. You let them grow and then you have trees in your back yard.

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"Why would you need to create a new species to represent an cultural aspect of an existing in universe alien?"
Allegory. You hit on issues in culture through allegory. They're not real. You could even explore topics in a more thorough manner through an alien avatar. It allows you to explore the extremes of an idea. People have limitations. Why did Stan Lee and Marvel create mutants? Why doesn't he just create a comic book about race relations?  Why does Aesop's fables use animals?  Why did the Bele have a problem with the Lokai? These are things that get explored in sci-fi shows through fictional species. Ironically, using aliens is a less alienating way to explore a subject than using people.

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As far as using existing scifi tropes: I'm just interested in how they explore them. I'm interested in their execution. I play this game called Star Fluxx that precedes the Orville. It has every recurring trope broken down into a playable card.

http://www.wunderland.com/WhatsNewPics/2011/StarFluxxCharacterCollage.jpg

https://d8mkdcmng3.imgix.net/9607/card-games-party-and-family-star-fluxx-1-raw-.jpg?auto=format&bg=0FFF&fit=fill&h=600&q=100&w=600&s=491249bfc36747132d467d42758da717

https://www.looneylabs.com/lists/star-fluxx-card-list

I enjoy the deconstruction the Orville writers have been doing just as much as the episode plotlines. Using existing plot ideas doesn't make someone a hack. Using them poorly does. The writers of the Orville aren't doing much new. What they are doing is tossing existing plotline salads in an interesting way.

[Plugabugz]

I'd love a Stargate nod (which is unlikely, these shows regularly acknowledge Star Trek and Wars but never Stargate).. maybe with an automated ship thats been flying since longer than the Union has existed.

[oohhboy]

Android made of metal is a form, not who or what they are. Our form are humanoid meat bags. They are Kylons and we humans yet we are both people.

We have no hints that there is a borg line or body snatchers. That's not point I am making. If whatever wish list alien shows up they won't be important in season 3, they might be important come season 4. Any new important season 3 reoccurring alien has already been hinted at and will have an existing connection

It's how the Orville team operates. They play the long game.

"This leads to why the seeding idea is so bad."

"The season finale and Identity was amazing because didn't come out of nowhere, it was teased throughout both seasons and many episodes had setup Kelly for it. Her talk with Gordon in lasting impressions was a massive part of that. It's why the Orville is so good, it weaves small threads into a tapestry. It is consistent with itself, organic in it's story, characters interacts as you would expect if they were real people nor arbitrary skilled at everything nor flawless or have a fig leaf "flaw"."

Setup IS seeding. You denounce one semantic idea and exalt another. They're the same thing. You want to setup a bunch of trees in your back yard? You plant seeds. You let them grow and then you have trees in your back yard.

You are mistaking the idea of seeding for build up which I what I am talking about. Dumping some robots on a planet and coming back to find a solution is a deus machina. That's happen stance. Not even Checkov's gun like the Armoff device. It would appear time to time, like the gun hanging over the fire place. It's important because the show repeatedly drew your attention to it, you wonder when it will be fired. That is what setup is.

You keep missing the key point regarding how Orville tells it's stories. It's character driven. The vast majority of the time the characters are given agency. When you build something up you have repeated interactions. What you are talking about can't have that as it would be plot driven not character, you would be taking away their agency.

Think Captain Marvel. Yeah you gave her a movie but over a decade of movies the legacy characters didn't interact with her, she wasn't a thing. We followed the Tony, Thor etc, that's where the build up was. Imagine how unsatisfying it would be if she came in and stole the victory that rightly belonged to the Avengers. How unearned her victory would be. All that blood spill pointless.

What you are proposing isn't build up. It's not semantics, what your saying doesn't match what you think you are saying. The robots on the planet would be Captain Marvel. CM is deus machina.

Victory over the Kylon has to be from Orville/Union, Krill, Moclans, Yaphits and Salyanas. You can't rob them of that. You understand now?

Another example of "seeding"(I am using your initial outline the whole time) is what STD a plot driven show would do. They brought in some random alien female in a short, much later she suddenly shows up again because they needed the power of a supernova. She instantly has a solution, very convenient, very serendipitous they happen to be close to where she lived, was available immediately, with very specific knowledge. That's bad.

It's partly why Game of Thrones ended so poorly. it stopped being about the characters. It was all about the finish line, get there no matter the method, just end the show. Common sense, character development, the world, who earned what, existing narratives be damned.

"Why would you need to create a new species to represent an cultural aspect of an existing in universe alien?"
Allegory. You hit on issues in culture through allegory. They're not real. You could even explore topics in a more thorough manner through an alien avatar. It allows you to explore the extremes of an idea. People have limitations. Why did Stan Lee and Marvel create mutants? Why doesn't he just create a comic book about race relations?  Why does Aesop's fables use animals?  Why did the Bele have a problem with the Lokai? These are things that get explored in sci-fi shows through fictional species. Ironically, using aliens is a less alienating way to explore a subject than using people.

I know what a bloody allegory is. Just because it is Trek doesn't mean you have whip up an new alien every issue. A race can represent more than one aspect. There is no reason to make not-Moclans to tell a Moclan(LBGQT) story, it just robs them of character growth and is redundant.

When Orville does use a new alien most of the time it is there for a one and done story. We aren't going back to Majority Rules, Mad Idolatry, Birthday cake, The Stars Appear. It's the same thing when they use a space thing, they aren't going back to 2D space. The plot device has been used up, story told.

I didn't call you a hack or even use the word, you called yourself a hack.

[ThePerm]

"You are mistaking the idea of seeding for build up which I what I am talking about."

This is getting to be just an internet semantics argument at this point. You use "Set up" in one post and "build up" in another. You're not even consistent. I'm sure that it is on purpose because it reeks of insincerity. The only difference between "set up" and "seeding" is one is a plant symbolism and the other is a construction symbolism.  An idea is introduced and then over time it expands. Building or Growing. All long game stuff.  What you're talking about is Bombing not seeding. I follow the Larry David/Alfred Hitchcock school of writing. If the fire extinguisher shows up prominently in the frame of a scene it's for a reason and it's going to be used later. Planting a seed is not a quick process. It takes a very long time for a seed to become a redwood. If anything it's a slower pace activity than building. I would never bomb a plot-line. In no way was I suggesting a sudden Captain Marvel. The most starling thing I can introduce is:
































the Spanish Inquisition.

"I didn't call you a hack or even use the word, you called yourself a hack."

"Also, Isaac is basically his own species now. When is he going to start reproducing? If I were Isaac I'd build a double and then drop it down on some empty planet and start replicating. That seems like the most logical way to defeat the Kylon."

"Isaac building an entire "species" of Kylon to fight Kylon raises so many ethical, story and logistical problems, so out of character only a hack writer would do it out of cheap drama. Issac is a Kylon, being morally/culturally/individually different doesn't make you a new species. It doesn't even make you a different race."

King with Received Pronunciation Accent
I am the King! 

Jester with French Accent
The King is stupid

King with Received Pronunciation Accent
Jester! Did you just call me stupid?

Jester with French Accent
No, I said the King is stupid.

King with Received Pronunciation Accent
I am the King!

I came up with the idea and you threw shade at it. You indirectly called me a hack. It was between the lines.

You definitely used the word.

I'm fully aware that The Orville is character driven. This is why I love Moclans, and Bortus and Klyden and all that they've brought to the show. But you have to understand that their creation is to explore our own cultural issues through allegory.  They wouldn't exist if the writers didn't have anything to comment on. That's the prime asset the show has going for it. Without the characters these would all be nothing but regurgitated plot lines that I've seen dozens of times before. That's the appeal of the show. How do these characters handle these situations? Yes, they don't have to make up new species to tackle allegory, but as you said in an earlier post "Yeah they go Moclans a bit much."

They could explore Xelayans more, or whatever Dan's species is, or come up with a new creation. So far, the Xelayan archetype is exactly Johhny Rico's parents from Starship Troopers. They seem to have regular human personalities and aren't as eccentric as say a Vulcan. I can't see them being much more than strong humans from a hyper-gravity planet. Dan though. He's a mystery. He's been on the show, his species has only been in the background a hand full of times, they've not been named. I'd like to know more about him. But then again it might be funny if they never went into his background too.

Also, to burst your bubble, but the Kaylon are already Deus ex Machina. Their threat resolved that conflict with the Krill pretty quickly.  Ozymandias's plot to unite against a common foe succeeded. It was a duel deus ex machina. The Kaylon took care of an ongoing Krill threat and the Krill took care of the Kaylon for that episode. Sometimes deus ex machina if implemented well isn't so bad. But in the long run even the Krill joining the union is not going to solve the Kaylon. Kaylon 2 being a foil to Kaylon 1 seems perfectly logical. Even if Isaac isn't the one to do it, they seem perfectly able to splinter. Kaylon 1 has exceeded its information capacity and have already mentioned colonization. Their colony could logically rebel if they can't even handle Isaac. The cracks are there. They've already set it up, or seeded it, or whatever symbolism you want to use.

At least if it was Isaac led, he's a member of the Orville, and would through the transitive property be a problem solved by the Orville. It would also solve the eventual plot hole of the Kaylon remotely shutting each other down, and it would be better than giving them all a computer virus. Though, you could mix those ideas.  I had mentioned how it would be interesting if the Kaylon interacted with another artificial intelligence. They might not have a guard against another one and trust it. It could be a Trojan horse situation engineered by the crew of the Orville.

"We have no hints that there is a borg line or body snatchers."
It's a Sci-fi show. Sometimes a Sci-fi parody show. Sometimes an homage. It's a common trope. You got the Borg on Star Trek, you got Unity on Rick and Morty, you have the Zerg in Star Craft. That's all the hint there needs to be. I'd totally be interested in how Mercer and the crew would tackle a group like this.

[oohhboy]

The conflict with the Krill hasn't been resolved, not even remotely, a temporary alliance doesn't mean they have come to an understanding. What they have signed is the thinnest of ceasefires, a document to allow consideration to consider the start of considering relations. Neither side has formal liaisons. The only real contact the Union has is via Mercer, his previous interaction made this possible. The story hasn't ended.

That is not what a desu ex Machina is. It's something a writer does to arbitrary end a story or if they wrote themselves into a corner. There are very few instances this has been used positively. Dumping robots on a planet and coming back to find it is the solution to the conflict is just that. It's out of nowhere, happen stance, absurdly improbable even impossible. Just because the "tree" grew off screen doesn't change what it is and what you are proposing. I even gave you two examples of this, one having been barely averted. I pointed out how it would break the narrative leaving the viewer unsatisfied.

The Kylons have been part of the narrative for a long time as have the krills. Neither materialise out of nowhere. The Orville had many prior contacts that built up a relationship that made the alliance plausible as is the Kylon genocidal nature via observations of Isaac. The Krill didn't turn on a dime, the potential alliance increased with each interaction. Ed's repeated offers to talk, to understand each other. Ed's infamy increasing infamy gave him clout to communicate with them, for them to delay extradition.

Isaac's turn was built up over many episodes.

Also why would the Orville intentionally create a bunch of Kylons only to use them as soldiers, slaves. That is completely out of character, they absolutely wouldn't do that. Ed threw himself in the line stop Isaac from becoming a slave, subservient for the Unions own ends or killed. Why would they do what you propose?? The writers would never betray their characters and narrative especially one played by Seth. They would never use such an idea because it's bad.

If you want an in show example of Chekvo's gun in the first episode we get shown the literal seeds for a tree that Ed eats and then pockets. Nobody calls Chekvo's gun seeding. Nor dumping robots on a planet a Chekvo's gun.

In show action always has precedent over any outside information. If the writers say someone is gay yet in show have never shown such action that character isn't gay. *Insert JK Rowling* It's not in the text.

Orville doesn't need more arbitrary aliens to fix too much Mocland to examine issues that would normally be a Moclan story. They just need to space out the stories more, bring in non-Moclan type issues and substitute in non-moclan b-plots/skits. That said 500 cigarettes pushed back against having less Moclans at least in the b-plot.

It's not like we won't see more aliens or more about Union members or Krill nor we won't see whatever wish list alien archetype you have. They will show up when it makes sense, when the show has space to let them in, not just because. There are logistical issues to consider like the number of episodes, the overall narrative, money, equipment, skills, contract negotiation, time tables. Example: I would love more Yaphit but he is too expensive to use whenever which in turn restricts what the writers can do with him.

The Orville writing team has proven themselves countless times their excellence. They aren't going to use such obviously bad ideas regardless of what you or I name them.

[ThePerm]

Earth is in danger of being mass murdered by a swarm of terminators, here comes the Krill to the aid of one ship to save the day.

There is this giant space cult of pale reptilianesque aliens that want to murder all other species in the galaxy, here comes the Kaylon, a godlike space terminator force, guess we got to unite in a tentative union so we don't all die. The Krill now believe Avis brought their forces together. It's a good thing they believe their god is suddenly on the unions side.

The Kaylon are literally machines. Deus Ex Machina: Latin: “god from the machine�) a person or thing that appears or is introduced into a situation suddenly and unexpectedly and provides an artificial or contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty. Sure, there were the smallest hints that there was something afoot at the Circle Kaylon 1, but there was a suddenness that the Kaylon's have an Ego style planetary crypt, and were in fact malevolent terminators. It wasn't completely unexpected, but it became relevant to the overarching plot of the show in a hurry.

I never said the Kaylon 2 would be slaves, if anything they would be the more democratic version of Kaylons. The Kaylon you thought Isaac described in early episodes. Exactly the same thing that happened with Moclans. An alternate Moclan planet that doesn't have the same social problems as those on Moclus. Haveena drops down on another planet, creates a safe harbor, and then there is a planet filled with alternative Moclans. Obviously, it took her a long time to do this, but you saw no indications of this in prior episodes.

The Krill will continue to soften throughout the show. If the show stays on a few more seasons expect a Krill crew member in a late season. They're already further a long with the Krill than TOS was with the Klingons.  They would be a good existing species to explore allegory with. Their branch is religion whereas the Moclans are LGBTQ issues. Moclans might break from the union. Even though logic would dictate they stay with the union given their situation, moclans have been illogical. I can imagine Bortus sticking with the Orville while Klydan returns to Moclas creating an ensuing Elián González situation.

I'm just going to keep throwing out lines and seeing which lines get bit. If the show keeps getting picked up I'm going to be right on some of them. TOS seasons are twice as long as Orville seasons. The Orville has to last for about 6-7 seasons to have the same number of episodes as all three seasons of TOS. The Orville exists in a post Star Trek world so it is going to be tighter overall. The Orville's ships mission should mean they should be meeting new species or situation almost weekly.  I want it to stay mostly episodic, if you just keep sticking with the same species then you have a serial show. I don't think the writers should write the show like they have an episode budget. That will lead to forced contrived situations. One nice thing I like about Star Trek is 90% of the time you can watch an episode without needing to watch the others. Sure, you get more out of it when you watch them in order. But you don't need to.  If they have 12-14 episodes a season at most they should only spend a quarter of that on the overarching plot. They spent half of season 2 on overarching plots. If we keep this up it'll be like season 3-4 of Enterprise.

I could use more "All the World Is Birthday Cake" episodes. Traveling to other worlds is similar to traveling to an alternate reality where things developed differently. We're developing self driving cars now, but in an alternative reality we focused on trains instead of cars. The Regorians were deathly serious about their zodiac. One societal tweak put's people in internment camps. Did they need to introduce a new species to tell this story? Yes. That's what they should do for 60-75% of the episodes. Though it doesn't need to be a monolithic species, it could be a culture. In Enterprise they deal with Vulcan culture pretty much exactly how The Orville deals with the Moclans and Kaylon. The Vulcans even become villains in some episodes. The offshoot Vulcans become sexual assailants in "Fusion" The Vulcan's became an unreasonable culture in the episode "stigma" Both cowritten by Braga. The Vulcan High council were repeatedly assholes. The episode where the Moclans argued over Toba's fate reminded me of the Enterprise Episode "Judgement" These seem familiar because it's mostly the same writers room.

"Lasting Impressions" didn't have new aliens. It focused on the affects of technology. It was like a Black Mirror episode. Gordan fell in love with a simulation and the Moclans were introduced to old school tobacco technology. "Primal Urges" was also an episode about the effects of tech. The Union hasn't developed teleportation yet. They're in the same sort of space Archer was in the early episodes of Enterprise. I'd like to see some fucked up teleportation episode.

[oohhboy]

Just because they are a literal machines doesn't mean they are desu machina. WTH. Talk about completely miss using the term and ignoring Isaac's entire journey. Yeah, sure I "believe" you when you said you understood it's a character driven show.

Kylon 2 would be slaves, you put them there to end your conflict, subservient to that end imposed by their creator, given no other path, no choice. How is that not slavery?

Did you not Watch blood of the Patriots? They were ready to go back to war with the Union Kylons be damned if the Union didn't hand over 1 guy. It's on a knife edge, the conflict hasn't been solved.

A Moclan-Union break/Moclan civil war is highly likely and it won't be about them being illogical. Their conflict is dogma vs enlightenment. What was once a necessity became tradition became dogma. You don't need or want an off shoot species to cover this. You want a Moclan cultural group like I don't know the Moclan Amazons that oppose the current order. What purpose does having an allegory inception by creating a not-moclan species to examine a Moclan issue? Also note Moclan episodes are not just about them. Deflectors is just as much a Talla story as it is Moclans.

They will bring in new aliens when they examine distinctly different issues.

The Orville is episodic. It is also serialised. The serial information is carried from episode to episode by the characters and the micro events. Each episode remembers the before. If you have ever watch Person of Interest that is a episodic police procedural that has an underlying serial structure. They grow over time, we learn more about them, important information that would only make sense in chronological order. Even Birthday Cake has significant serial information of importance.

This isn't TNG where season 1 crew are exactly the same in the series finale made almost purely episodic.

The show runners aren't stupid. They have clear patterns of behaviour. They have been consistently excellent. I am presenting this their actions, what has be shown, what they have avoided, what they have cleverly used. You are trying to argue for things they would never do. Things that have utterly destroyed other shows.

You are clearly think completely in plot only story telling, more concerned with tropes collecting than observing what the show is doing.

[ThePerm]

"Earth is in danger of being mass murdered by a swarm of terminators, here comes the Krill to the aid of one ship to save the day."

Deus Ex Machina -  a person or thing that appears or is introduced into a situation suddenly and unexpectedly and provides an artificial or contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty.

Before Identity 2 the Krill were nothing but a villain. Maybe Mercer fucked one, but they were still the prime villain of the show. Suddenly they're saving the day.

"There is this giant space cult of pale reptilianesque aliens that want to murder all other species in the galaxy, here comes the Kaylon, a godlike space terminator force, guess we got to unite in a tentative union so we don't all die. The Krill now believe Avis brought their forces together. It's a good thing they believe their god is suddenly on the unions side."

Deus Ex Machina - a person or thing that appears or is introduced into a situation suddenly and unexpectedly and provides an artificial or contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty.

Before Identity the Kaylon were nothing but dialog exposition. Maybe Claire fucked one, but they were a neutral species on the show. Suddenly they're so villainous that the Krill and the Union have to begrudgingly work together.

[oohhboy]

You are literally ignoring all the overtures Mercer have made with the Krill? How he is so infamous they picked him to seduce and kidnap. The Union sent Ed and the Orville because they have the closest relationship with them. The relationship while antagonistic also had a grudging understanding.

Did you not see how over the top racist Isaac was?(Ed: Aren't you guys legendary racist?) Why Isaac was on the Orville? How little he thought of biologicals? They even gave us a reminder of that in Road Not Taken to contrast to the Isaac we now know. Given his behaviour Kylon murdering everybody is not remotely an unexpected, it was the expected outcome.

None of this is inexplicable which disqualifies it from being Deus Machina. What the Krill did if you are only speaking in nothing but tropes is cavalry riding in to save the day. Kelly and Gordon had to go to them for help at extremely high risk. Had the Krill showed up without Kelly/Gordon contacting them, if Ed didn't built up a relationship, had we never heard of the Krill or only encountered them in as a one off, that would be Deus Machina.

It wasn't just because Claire fucked Isaac (An unbelievably insulting shallow take), it was also his relationship with her kids to whom he acted as a surrogate father going back to season 1. The climax of this was being ordered to kill the kids.

'Lasting Impressions' wasn't about technology. The technology was the means to tell the story. The story is about what makes you, you, special, unique. What are relationships built on. If it wasn't a smart phone it could have been a diary Gordon was reading, imagining his relationship with her. The technology allowed him to show what he saw to everyone, how he unmade who she was by removing a single thread.

The majority of the time the technology is the means to tell a story not be the story. Even in Majority Rules it isn't about the technology that enable social media, it's the culture of mob judgement, how manipulative it is, disproportional punishment, it's destructiveness. Primal Urges could have been told with porn magazines, the important part was Bortus dereliction of duty, nature of mental addiction and root causes.

[ThePerm]

"Did you not see how over the top racist Isaac was?(Ed: Aren't you guys legendary racist?) Why Isaac was on the Orville? How little he thought of biologicals? They even gave us a reminder of that in Road Not Taken to contrast to the Isaac we now know. Given his behaviour Kylon murdering everybody is not remotely an unexpected, it was the expected outcome."

"Before Identity the Kaylon were nothing but dialog exposition"

You're not even fully reading my posts. You're just trying to be a contrarian at this point.

Oh Cavalry....
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheCavalry

If done badly, this trope represents the ultimate example of the Deus ex Machina.
I don't think it was done badly, but the cavalry and Deus ex Machina are the same thing. You're fucked if the cavalry doesn't show up. I thought Stagecoach ended pretty fucking conveniently.

Oh no! John Carradine's been shot! John Wayne and the rest of the Stagecoach gang are surrounded on all sides by an overwhelming war party of reasonably angry Native Americans...Oh wait here come the Cavalry! Thank God for the Cavalry!  and beginning of the machine of the American Military Industrial Complex!

Cavalry - a person or thing that appears or is introduced into a situation suddenly and unexpectedly and provides an artificial or contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty. But only people don't hate it as much.

Further sourcing
https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/deus-ex-machina.html
The modern-day version would be the cavalry riding over the horizon

"It wasn't just because Claire fucked Isaac (An unbelievably insulting shallow take), it was also his relationship with her kids to whom he acted as a surrogate father going back to season 1. The climax of this was being ordered to kill the kids."

Oh you must have missed that I repeated the same phrasing for poetic reasons. Look back... there was some art there. I just copied and pasted the thing before and changed words around for emphasis.

"You are clearly think completely in plot only story telling, more concerned with tropes collecting than observing what the show is doing."

I wrote an entire screenplay without a plot.

https://www.amazon.com/Jamaican-Day-Weird-People-Arizona-ebook/dp/B01AU8S7YC/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=jamaican+day+or+weird+people+in+arizona&qid=1558693120&s=books&sr=1-1

Though that's the George Lucas Special Edition version if you get what I mean.

I guess I'm going to have to bring this up...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiyPqbyHXIg

[oohhboy]

You are literally going out of your way to throw away everything that leads up to an event. All the connections that make up a story. You are not even a plot based writer, You're the equivalent of a bunch of dice rolling generic story elements for DnD, a series of "and then this happen" after you left the inn. No more of this insanity. We are done, you have no bloody idea what you are talking about.

[broodwars]

After bailing on Season 2 of the Orville after that terrible 1st episode, I thought I'd give it another shot over this long weekend.

I'm currently on episode 4, and so far I'm really not feeling this season. I hate Seth McFarland's sophomoric comedic writing at the best of times, but second only to that is my boredom with "romance" and "relationship" stories. They were always the worst aspect of any Star Trek series, and they're no better here.

The 1st 2 episodes of the season are relationship-oriented, and they're just godawful. I don't care about Bortis, his mate, or their sexual frustrations. This is like the 4th episode of the show to focus on this, and I haven't cared about any of them. The Orville in general seems to think I give a damn about "shipping". I don't.

Episode 3, though, was pretty decent, even if it did mean losing my favorite character on the show. I had to smile at them bringing in 2 actors who played Star Trek doctors as guest stars (Voyager's EMH Doctor and Enterprise's Doctor Phlox. I didn't even recognize him until he started speaking fast).

So far, this season's really not looking promising but I'll stick with it. I want Science Fiction, not a Soap Opera with shitty comedy bits.

[broodwars]

More romance bullshit. I think I liked Isaac's storyline better when it was the Geth in Mass Effect...or the Cylons in Battlestar Galactica. Still, at least the storyline with Isaac's civilization is SOMETHING of moderate interest happening this season. It took them 8 episodes, but finally SOMETHING is happening this season.

[broodwars]

Well, I've finished The Orville Season 2, and honestly it was pretty damn mediocre overall. The first half was mostly garbage, and the 2nd half was mostly great. The 1st half had next to no actual science fiction in leiu of boring, pointless "relationship" episodes, and the 2nd half was almost completely science fiction. Overall, it was a pretty mixed bag.

Even the stuff that the 2nd half of the season did well came with some caveats. For instance, the Krill were rather dull as villains, so seeing them get pushed aside for the Kaylons & even the Moclans at times was definitely an upgrade. However, since the Kaylons have had next to no build-up whatsoever, it felt like The Orville was trying to do the Dominion War by jumping from Season 2 of DS9 to Season 6 in the space of 2 episodes. Saying that it felt rushed would be an understatement, and the emotion was unearned. The new Chief of Security is just the old Chief of Security with a Find & Replace function used on her name. She has no personality of her own.

I actually quite liked the holodeck episode, if only because it reminded me of assorted Barclay & LaForge episodes of TNG with how the characters built a relationship and dependency with a simulation. And the show went out on a nice note with the time travel 2 parter.

Seth McFarland needs to decide what he wants the Orville to be, and then flesh that out. Outside of the main 2, the entire cast feel like they're peripheral characters with no time to actually shine. The tone is all over the place, fluctuating from frathouse Seth McFarland comedy to classic Star Trek. The show still feels like it's throwing ideas and characters at the wall to see what sticks, rather than expanding upon what was already there. I could tolerate that when the show was just getting its footing, but we're 2 seasons in now and it still doesn't feel like they have a lock on what they're doing yet.

[oohhboy]

I wouldn't say there wasn't enough build up, it just wasn't the direct kind due to their isolationism. Isaac's racist behaviour was a pretty big give away as to where it was going. It has a soft serial format and doesn't have a large number of episodes to play with leading to pacing issues especially with how many Moclan episodes got stacked up.

The season narrative is about relationships and choices. This built up both Isaac and Kelly for their respective two parters. It was a very person centric rather than space hole sci-fi.

I couldn't disagree more on the Talla. Her personality and demeanour couldn't me more different. She is seasoned, cocky, more diligent(KGBish vibe) and a straight shooter to a fault. Alara is inexperienced, unsure, brave and have on more than one occasion broke enough rules for her to get kicked out if not for Ed.

We got 2 full Gordon episodes, a ton of Moclan, Isaac and Claire episodes. 2 excellent adventures of Ed and Gordon. Kelly and Ed get 1 each. Lammar hasn't gotten an episode yet.

Be careful what you wish for when asking for more classic Trek as that well is beyond dry. The humour makes Orville, Orville rather than reskinned Trek. Seth is in no doubt very aware keeping it fresh with partly with humour otherwise you would constantly be pointing how this episode is this trek episode. With so many shows playing it dead serious or not much more than quips you will notice the long form humour more, I certainly have.

[ThePerm]

Well, I've finished The Orville Season 2, and honestly it was pretty damn mediocre overall. The first half was mostly garbage, and the 2nd half was mostly great. The 1st half had next to no actual science fiction in leiu of boring, pointless "relationship" episodes, and the 2nd half was almost completely science fiction. Overall, it was a pretty mixed bag.

Even the stuff that the 2nd half of the season did well came with some caveats. For instance, the Krill were rather dull as villains, so seeing them get pushed aside for the Kaylons & even the Moclans at times was definitely an upgrade. However, since the Kaylons have had next to no build-up whatsoever, it felt like The Orville was trying to do the Dominion War by jumping from Season 2 of DS9 to Season 6 in the space of 2 episodes. Saying that it felt rushed would be an understatement, and the emotion was unearned. The new Chief of Security is just the old Chief of Security with a Find & Replace function used on her name. She has no personality of her own.

I actually quite liked the holodeck episode, if only because it reminded me of assorted Barclay & LaForge episodes of TNG with how the characters built a relationship and dependency with a simulation. And the show went out on a nice note with the time travel 2 parter.

Seth McFarland needs to decide what he wants the Orville to be, and then flesh that out. Outside of the main 2, the entire cast feel like they're peripheral characters with no time to actually shine. The tone is all over the place, fluctuating from frathouse Seth McFarland comedy to classic Star Trek. The show still feels like it's throwing ideas and characters at the wall to see what sticks, rather than expanding upon what was already there. I could tolerate that when the show was just getting its footing, but we're 2 seasons in now and it still doesn't feel like they have a lock on what they're doing yet.

One of my friends just finished the series, and said exactly what you said. You guys are on the same wavelength.