Author Topic: Piracy (Read 30733 times)

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #75 on:** September 14, 2003, 07:36:07 AM »

No one really cares about pirating music that much, either, or even pirating games. That doesn't neccessarily make it okay, though.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #76 on:** September 14, 2003, 08:55:19 PM »

The difference is that publishers care for copying their new games or music while they don't care for anyone copying long forgotten games. Hell, most of the publishers responsible for abandonware don't even exist anymore! Some companies even put their really old games up for free (OMF2097 comes to mind) or make them opensource (Quake binaries, the Descent level editor, ...).

honda_insightful · « **Reply #77 on:** September 15, 2003, 02:19:25 AM »

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
Saying that it's okay to pirate older games is just stupid- would you steal an old record from a record store? No! .

Yes I would. If the old record (say a classic 1920 Jazz tune) is no longer available for purchase, I'd download it off the net for free. Same applies to old Atari & Commodore games.

And the company loses no money, because the company is not selling the product. (In this case, Atari/Commodore are both dead... so I can't hurt them!)

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #78 on:** September 15, 2003, 03:26:46 AM »

This isn't about the company losing money, it's about taking something that you didn't pay for. It doesn't matter who the money goes to, taking something without paying for it is stealing no matter hiow you slice it. I'm not coming on down on your saying you would actually do it (hell, download stuff of Kazaa all the time), I just want you to know that there is no way you can justify it and that it is stealing.

honda_insightful · « **Reply #79 on:** September 16, 2003, 03:47:43 AM »

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
This isn't about the company losing money, it's about taking something that you didn't pay for. It doesn't matter who the money goes to, taking something without paying for it is stealing

Okay. Justify your argument. Explain why stealing an old Atari game (for example Combat) is wrong?

"Stealing is wrong" is how children think... black & white. Explain WHY it is wrong to download Combat and play it. Use ADULT arguments.

.

MY POSITION: Stealing is only wrong if someone is harmed. Since Atari is dead, my argument is that no one is harmed, therefore downloading Combat is 100% okay. (That's adult thinking.)

Another example: I abandon my car is downtown Baltimore with keys and title. Someone is 100% okay to take that abandoned car. It is not stealing.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #80 on:** September 16, 2003, 07:50:31 AM »

I THINK that if a company dies completely and doesn't inherit it's rights to another one their intellectual property will immediately become public domain (since noone can determine who may do what with the software). Anyway, if you steal something out of a garbage bin, noone will sue you for that.

manunited4eva22 · « **Reply #81 on:** September 16, 2003, 11:55:36 AM »

No, that is incorrect.

A copyright will last for 25-50 years, and is owned by that company UNLESS THEY CHOOSE TO DEVOID IT.

Therefore, that company still owns the right to that product, and without their consent it is illegal.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #82 on:** September 16, 2003, 12:05:40 PM »

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Okay. Justify your argument. Explain why stealing an old Atari game (for example Combat) is wrong?

How can YOU justify taking something that you don't need? If you were stealing a loaf of bread so you don't starve, I can understand, but a videogame is entertainment, it's a luxury. Why SHOULDN'T you pay for it? It's not YOURS.

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"Stealing is wrong" is how children think... black & white. Explain WHY it is wrong to download Combat and play it. Use ADULT arguments.

Read my posts already in this thread you idiot, namely this one:

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posted by mouse_clicker Fri August 08, 2003 4:37 PM
kingvudu: While I agree with what you're saying, it's not so black and white. If you told a white lie to your spouse or someone similar to avoid getting into an argument you knew was going to go nowhere, is anyone going roast you over hot coals? If someone had murdered Hitler, would anyone had resented him? Quite the contrary, he'd be held as a hero! The only reason people hold any contempt at all for Jack Ruby is because he killed Lee Harvey Oswald before they could get any real information out of him. It's a matter of one or the other- would you rather someone kill an innocent baby at home sleeping in his crib or Osama bin Laden? You can't categorize EVERYTHING into "good" and "bad"- if everything worked that way we'd have a very mundane society. While piracy is still wrong, elevating it to the level of, say, a bank robbery is pure lunacy.

Bottom line is taking something that isn't your is THEFT, and theft is WRONG.

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MY POSITION: Stealing is only wrong if someone is harmed. Since Atari is dead, my argument is that no one is harmed, therefore downloading Combat is 100% okay. (That's adult thinking.)

That's childish thinking- what if I were to take all the money out of a convenience store register while the clerk was in the bathroom? Just because he wasn't harmed doesn't mean it's not stealing his hard earned money. what if you break into someone's car while they're in the store and run off with it- is THAT okay just because no one was harmed? Of course not, and I think you'll find the cops and the judges will agree with me on that.

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Another example: I abandon my car is downtown Baltimore with keys and title. Someone is 100% okay to take that abandoned car. It is not stealing.

It's still theft because they took YOUR car without asking YOU. If you gave consent, well that's all fine and dandy, but TAKING something that isn't YOURS is just plain wrong. did your parents even bother teaching you ethics?

Termin8Anakin · « **Reply #83 on:** September 17, 2003, 06:19:43 AM »

omg, why do we have ewven explain what stealing is?
Stealing is taking something that isn't yours, without the permission or knowledge of the owner, plain and simple.
There are no conditions for it, no exceptions to the fact.
On whatever levels it's on, from taking a loaf of bread just to survive to stealing $1.5 million from a bank, it's still stealing.

manunited4ever22 is right on the copyright thing.
And once something passes into public domain, THEN it's not stealing. But then so many things claimed to be public domain it's hard to tell which really is and which is not.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #84 on:** September 17, 2003, 11:42:44 AM »

EXACTLY Termin8. And a friend of mine said something I like, as well- that free music and games is neither a right nor a neccessity, and while it may be convenient, your life won't be any worse otherwise.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #85 on:** September 17, 2003, 11:46:59 AM »

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it also says it's due to the poorly designed cases. So there really isn't a problem, store your games in a multi dvd case where they're not exposed

Does that mean I shouldn't keep my DVDs in their DVD cases? I don't have a case for my DVDs (I do for my CDs), but I'd definitely get one if it eliminated DVD rot.

Also, sorry for posting again- I would have just edited it into my last post, but the edit page wouldn't load.

honda_insightful · « **Reply #86 on:** September 17, 2003, 03:05:31 PM »

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
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Okay. Justify your argument. Explain why stealing an old Atari game (for example Combat) is wrong?
How can YOU justify taking something that you don't need? If you were stealing a loaf of bread so you don't starve, I can understand, but a videogame is entertainment, it's a luxury. Why SHOULDN'T you pay for it? It's not YOURS.

Actually, I *DID* pay for Atari's Combat 25 years ago. Both it and the console died about 5 years ago, so now I it on my PC with an Atari emulator.

So I have two questions:
(1) Since I already paid for the Combat game 25 years ago, am I entitled to keep playing it (via emulation)? Or am I just screwed because my cart blew out?

(2) If no, can you show me where I can buy a copy? Do you know the Atari address where I can buy Combat?

.

Also, let's discussed USED games. Do you think they are acceptable for purchase? Or does Nintendo have the right to forbid the sale of Mario 64 used carts?

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #87 on:** September 17, 2003, 03:30:08 PM »

Why do you need to play Combat at all? Look, I'm not pissed off at the fact that you're using an emulator to play the game- on the contrary, it's great you're getting to enjoy the game since you can't otherwise. I'm just pissed off that you don't understand that you're stealing it. You paid for a cart a long time ago, and you got your use out of that cart, which now doesn't work. If pirating didn't exist, you would have to buy the game again- I know it's a horrible thing to make you do, but it's a simple fact of life. If one of my CD's broke, that wouldn't make it okay to take another copy from Best Buy, would it? Of course not.

And I don't see how used games have anything to do with this. Used games were purchased at one point new, played, then sold back to a retailer, who then sold it to someone else. There's no theft going on in any of those transactions- I'm not saying that when you buy a game the money HAS to go to the developer, but rather whoever you're getting it from. The retailer pays Nintendo for a shipment of games and you pay the retailer for a copy of that game.

Another friend of mine provided an excellent analogy- pirating isn't so much like shoplifting as it is like printing your own money.

honda_insightful · « **Reply #88 on:** September 18, 2003, 02:48:55 AM »

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
Why do you need to play Combat at all?

For the same reason I listen to my old Michael Jackson Thriller album. It's a part of my childhood, and I play it because it's (a) fun and (b) nostalgia. Anyway, I PAID for the program. I should be able to continue playing it until the day I die. And I will. (And the U.S. Supreme Court says backup copies of games...like my Combat... are 100% legal.)

Besides, Atari is dead. Combat is now a PUBLIC DOMAIN program, because no one..... repeat, no one.... owns it. It's like Shakespeare's plays. Shakespeare is dead, so his work becomes the property of everyone. Likewise, Atari is dead, therefore their games become the property of everyone.

.

USED GAMES: In Europe, Nintendo and Sony tried to stop the selling of used games. They claimed that used games are harming their current profits. At first the law passed, but then it was overturned. Anyway, THAT'S why I brought up used games. You think it's harmless, but Nintendo & Sony clearly think it's wrong.

.

By the way mouse_clicker, you come across like an inexperienced teenager with virtually no knowledge of how the world actually woks. Your ignorance of copyright laws, public domain, and legal backup copies (per the U.S. Supreme Court) is sad. Maybe you should go LEARN THE LAWS before you start claiming to be an expert on them...... because you sure don't know crap about how things actually work in the adult world.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #89 on:** September 18, 2003, 03:31:18 AM »

Yeah, and you come off as a parolee who's going to end up back in jail if he doesn't realise stealing is wrong. And there seems to be a lot of us "inexperienced teens", since you're not getting any support.

What you paid for was a COPY of the game, not the game itself. If your car breaks down, are you entitled to another one for free? And my ponit about why do you NEED to play Combat is that you don't NEED to at all- a videogame is a form of entertainment, it's a luxury. It's not required to live, so I don't know why you're willing to go to the ends of the earth to get what you want.

And they are NOT public domain- how the hell would you even think that? Just because it's not in production doesn't mean you can just take it. Indian doesn't make motorcycles anymore but does that mean you can just take one, since it's "public domain"? Shakespeare died almost half a millenium ago- I don't see how that applies at all to the situation. Do you even know the MEANING of the word ethics?

Seriously, if you can't understand that taking something that isn't yours without consent from the owners is stealing and that stealing is wrong, there's nothing I can do.

oohhboy · « **Reply #90 on:** September 18, 2003, 07:53:29 AM »

Here is your problem, you guys are comparing I.P. and phyiscal products. Both which have different properties yet are one and the same yet not. You have a CD with X data. The Cd itself is the phyical manifeistaion of the data while the data/ideas themself are intangables.

Any product released are made up of both in varying quantities. Games are more I.P. that say a car. As Mouse Clicker said, if a motorcycle when out of production you can just take one. Which is correct but even if you could where would ou take one from? Build one from a design of one? you can't do that either as the design is owned by the said company. But if the said design was to have no owner then yes you can make your own copy of this motorcycle as no owner means no contest.

Same goes for games, it is just the copying is easier. If a company folds over and the rights it held are not brought by anybody, then those rights would belonge to a non-existant company, ie, no one. therefore no contest.

When you buy a game you do not buy the game itself. You buy a lisence to use/play the game in it's proscribed manner. So if it breaks your screwed. But if the said company has folded and the rights have not been transferred to another owner, as before it automatically enters public domain.

As for abandonware, as long as the company/individual holds the ownership of the game and has not consented for it to be public domain whether direct action or inaction the game is still protected under the law.

Whether it is a need or not, it does not matter as that is not the point and arguing it will get you no where. Forget about it, that is more about phlosiphe than ethics.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #91 on:** September 19, 2003, 10:04:20 AM »

Most games don't include a notice that what you thought you bought isn't yours (especially console games). If such a notice is not included you own the copy. You don't own the copyright, but you own the copy. According to EU law (I don't know about the US) you can do anything with that copy if it doesn't violate the copyright. And, like the name says, copyright is the right to copy/control copying.

Abandonware might be technically illegal, but morally and practically there are no problems with using it. Atari won't sue you over Combat. And a crime is only bad when the damaged party choses to sue. Common sense might not be written into the law, but (at least outside of the USA) people apply it BEFORE starting a lawsuit. I think you're free to grab Combat off the internet, no matter what the exact wording in the law is.

BTW, there is a BIG difference between copyright infringement and theft, no matter what the RIAA tries to make you believe.
Theft is physically removing an object that is not yours like running into a shop, grabbing a game and walking out without paying.
Copyright infringement means creating a replica or derivative of another work. It involves a creative (not inventive!) process, e.g. writing the data to a medium, constructing a part out of a given material, etc. CI can even occur if you build something yourself (three out of my four released Q3A player models, for example). However, unlike theft, copyright infringement does not necessarily cause damage. I don't think Square lost a single cent just because I made a model of Tifa from Final Fantasy 7.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #92 on:** September 20, 2003, 08:32:07 AM »

Just because Square didn't lose anything doesn't mean you took something that wasn't yours if you copy a game, KDR. You're taking THEIR creative property without paying THEM for it- how is that not stealing? Copyright infringement isn't theft in the sense that you're breaking in somewhere and running off with the goods, and it's certainly nowhere near as bad, but it IS theft, no matter how you slice it.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #93 on:** September 20, 2003, 10:42:09 PM »

Theft means the owner has to replace the stolen object. However copyright infringement causes a loss on sales instead. This loss isn't there if what you copied isn't sold anymore, anyway.
(BTW, I didn't copy the FF7 game, I have never played it)

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #94 on:** September 20, 2003, 11:36:20 PM »

I personally don't care if you actually copied it or not- that's not my deal.

The point is, though, you're taking someone's intellectual and creative property without paying them for the right to use it. Obviously isn't as bad as actually stealing from a store, but it's still the same concept, just implimented through a different manner.

getupkids · « **Reply #95 on:** September 24, 2003, 05:33:56 PM »

Pirating a current game may be wrong, but dowloading a snes game? I dont see anything wrong in that.

KDR_11k · « **Reply #96 on:** September 25, 2003, 09:16:49 AM »

Sssssh! Don't start it all over!

honda_insightful · « **Reply #97 on:** October 02, 2003, 12:22:27 AM »

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
What you paid for was a COPY of the game, not the game itself.

And they are NOT public domain- how the hell would you even think that?

In 1977, there was no such distinction. You bought the GAME, Combat, not a software license.

And, since Atari is dead, no one owns Combat. That means it is public domain. That's why a site like http://www.atariguide.com can exist without fear of legal repercussions.

KnowsNothing · « **Reply #98 on:** October 06, 2003, 12:13:09 PM »

I think pirates are bad people. They steal booty and loot places and shiver my timbers. Avast, ye scalliwag...

joeamis · « **Reply #99 on:** October 14, 2003, 04:11:06 PM »

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Originally posted by: honda_insightful
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Originally posted by: joeamis
it is ILLEGAL to make backup copies of games.

The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the original owner is legally entitled to make backup copies of his cassettes, videotapes, diskettes, CDs, DVDs, and on and on. That ruling includes software and games stored on CDs/DVDs. So in America at least, it is okay to backup ALL your entertainment media. You have the right to preserve your purchase in secondary/backup format.

i'll take your word for it but does that apply to propriety cartridges, cds, and dvds?
i remember back in the snes days a company sold a backup device mainstream and was sued by nintendo, nintendo won the case.

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Author Topic: Piracy (Read 30733 times)