Author Topic: Piracy  (Read 30885 times)

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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2003, 08:19:44 AM »
That's a good point, Ty- most gamers know how much work goes into a game, and they realise that the high prices are usually justified, and in some cases lower than it should be (in the case of Shenmue). I'll admit I've copied a couple of my sister's CD's and I've downloaded my fair share of MP3's, but I've *never* owned a pirated videogame- I tried downloading a copy of Risk 2 for my computer once, but it was such a hassle I gave up- the only one I could get working was the trial version.

Another reason, I think, that people don't have as many qualms about downloading MP3's as opposed to games is that CD's usually cost around 15 or 16 dollars, and individual songs much less, whereas games can cost all the way up to $60. It just doesn't feel as illegal when what you're stealing is worth less.
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Offline vudu

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RE: Piracy
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2003, 11:21:38 AM »
they try to justify their theft (or copyright infringment, whichever you wish to call it) by claiming that since it's a huge company/industry it's not hurting sales by much and they can afford it (hell, i think that's almost word-for-word what hitman said).  some even go so far as to say that it's an "evil" company and they don't want to support it, however they want to use its products.  however, if you think about it, if you kill the meanest person in the world, it's still murder; if you cheat on your spouse with the biggest slut around, it's still adultory; the most innocent white lie is still a lie; and if you download a game made by the greediest company in the world (..must refrain from obvious joke...) it's still stealing.  there's really no way you can rationalize it.
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Offline vudu

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2003, 11:44:23 AM »
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2003, 12:37:20 PM »
kingvudu: While I agree with what you're saying, it's not so black and white. If you told a white lie to your spouse or someone similar to avoid getting into an argument you knew was going to go nowhere, is anyone going roast you over hot coals? If someone had murdered Hitler, would anyone had resented him? Quite the contrary, he'd be held as a hero! The only reason people hold any contempt at all for Jack Ruby is because he killed Lee Harvey Oswald before they could get any real information out of him. It's a matter of one or the other- would you rather someone kill an innocent baby at home sleeping in his crib or Osama bin Laden? You can't categorize EVERYTHING into "good" and "bad"- if everything worked that way we'd have a very mundane society. While piracy is still wrong, elevating it to the level of, say, a bank robbery is pure lunacy.

Besides, for most music pirates, it's not a matter of justifying what they've done- they see themselves as sort of modern day Robin Hoods, stealing from the greedy corporate machine and giving to the oppressed poor people. They see themselves as sticking it to the corporate evil, similar to how some people wouldn't notify their bank about an error in their favor because they see it as the little guy triumphing over the big guy, a David and Goliath sort of situation, if you will. You can't convince people like that that piracy is wrong because they're in a very deep mindset, and saying piracy is completely and utterly morally corupt isn't quite true, either. There is no line dviding bad and good and more often than not, it's not quite clear where what you're doing is.
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Offline getupkids

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RE: Piracy
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2003, 04:59:30 PM »
trading music is a lot different from burning games, you cant compare the two, i agree with what mouse clicker said above.
metallicas stupid because thier already popular, a lot of bands can/do benefit when people  swapping music.
stop feeling content from other sites

Offline manunited4eva22

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #55 on: August 08, 2003, 06:46:16 PM »
How is it different?

Lets see search on kazaa for gta:vc I find..... 843 files large enough to be the whole game, 23 patches, 124 cd key hacks, and a few virus laden files.

You will find similar numbers for anything on kazaa... the means by which they are atained are in all reality the same.

Either way, you are screwing over someone, just looking for someone else to force your guilt on.

Offline joeamis

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #56 on: August 19, 2003, 09:53:12 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
>>You're not screwed if you can't open .doc files, all you have to do is transfer the text which can be done very easily with a variety of software.<<

The program that transfers the text has to open and decrypt the file just like your editor has to and therefore would be illegal as well in this situation ("circumvention of copyright mechanism").

And I still don't see why ripping MP3s is legal if ripping of ROMs isn't. Both are images of existing media which are played using a special program. The media type surely doesn't matter.


If you wanted to put text from say M Word onto another word processor program, all you would have to do (it would take more time than just moving the files) is copy the text in M Word and paste it, if that ability was firewalled by M Word, than all you have to do is copy and paste into say any other program (this forum for example) then copy it from the forum and paste it into the new program...  (and there is no way Microsoft would know you did this)

ripping MP3s from CD's is the only legal use of MP3s because you already own it and it's intended for play on any cd player... ripping of roms if someone makes the rom for the computer is illegal.  Also if you rip the rom from the game itself, that is illegal to... that's because the game is intended for play on only the console it's made for.  That's the HUGE difference between ripping MP3s and Roms...and why one is legal while the other is not.

ZELDA POSTED: I think roms should definitely be legal if you own the games you have roms of. I also don't see anything wrong with getting roms of old games that aren't sold anymore. If you were to buy those games gaming companies wouldn't make any money anyway. I think Nintendo said that roms hurt game sales... well.. I certainly don't buy any less games because I have SNES roms.

MY REPLY: Yes, but Nintendo said this when the N64 was in it's prime and emulators and roms for it were wide spread simultaneously....
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Piracy
« Reply #57 on: August 19, 2003, 10:21:22 PM »
I'm not too sure about a copyrightholder being allowed to restrict the usage of the copies. There was something in an IBM vs. SCO article that suggests this. The holder might prevent you from copying their IP, but they cannot tell you not do do certain things with it. E.g. using an emulator to play a game on the CD you inserted. Also there was a quote from the copyright law that said you may make a copy 1. for archieving purposes 2. as part of a step involving interoperation (or some wording like that). Means you may install it. Could as well allow you to make a ROM to use on your PC. After all, the PC couldn't use it without making the ROM first, agreed?

About the Word thing: That clipboard thing sounds pretty simple, agreed, but no matter how simple, you're still circumventing the mechanism that prevents you from opening the file with another program. Also, MS is feverishly working on something formerly called Palladium, which allows copyright holders to prevent you from doing that. Note thet copyright holder here doesn't necessarily mean the copyright of the file, but the copyright to the application. If you have W2k SP3+ or WXP SP1 you should've read the EULA, because MS now reserves itself the right to add this and other DRM stuff to your system without letting you know.

Offline joeamis

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2003, 10:43:22 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
I'm not too sure about a copyrightholder being allowed to restrict the usage of the copies. There was something in an IBM vs. SCO article that suggests this. The holder might prevent you from copying their IP, but they cannot tell you not do do certain things with it. E.g. using an emulator to play a game on the CD you inserted. Also there was a quote from the copyright law that said you may make a copy 1. for archieving purposes 2. as part of a step involving interoperation (or some wording like that). Means you may install it. Could as well allow you to make a ROM to use on your PC. After all, the PC couldn't use it without making the ROM first, agreed?

About the Word thing: That clipboard thing sounds pretty simple, agreed, but no matter how simple, you're still circumventing the mechanism that prevents you from opening the file with another program. Also, MS is feverishly working on something formerly called Palladium, which allows copyright holders to prevent you from doing that. Note thet copyright holder here doesn't necessarily mean the copyright of the file, but the copyright to the application. If you have W2k SP3+ or WXP SP1 you should've read the EULA, because MS now reserves itself the right to add this and other DRM stuff to your system without letting you know.


no, copyright holder (say Nintendo for Zelda WW) restricts you from playing Zelda WW on anything except the Gamecube.  Obviously we both know that playing the cd on another device is illegal then, it's also illegal to make a copy of Zelda WW...therefor it doesn't matter if they restrict your usage of the copies... because it's already illegal, they don't have to add another law against restricting uses of copies because the copies themselves are illegal!

If companies agree to Microsoft that they will not be allowed to transfer their documents from Microsoft programs to a different program they're just plain stupid.  I doubt big companies agree to this term, and if they actually have they probably will just pay Microsoft a fee if they want to switch their files over, or even do it and just pay the fine.  Companies can just switch their new data to a new program and keep the archives in the Microsoft program too.  Also many large companies use their own programs and not Microsoft, I worked for a company that did so.
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Offline Rafalapso

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RE: Piracy
« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2003, 04:48:08 AM »
My comment about "Why the psx did well, even with the high piracy rate":
Here in brazil, i'd say 90% of the psx games are pirated copies.
This mean that sony lost a lot of money here, right? Not exactly.
They lost a lot with the games, but they won a lot with console sales.
Because there is no pirate console, the gamers have to buy the console to play the pirate games...

My comment about "Legal uses for emulators":
First some facts:
You can't make copies of your games (not even for backup reasons they say)
You can only use emulators to play games if you have the emulated device.
Based on the 1st fact, you have to use the original media with the emulator.
But what about cartridge-based videogames?
Well, you have to use the original media anyways, so you'd have to interface the cartridge directly with the computer running the emulator.
OR, you could use a rom if you return (without money refund)  the original media to the game distribuctor. (by doing this, you would turn your videogame useless, because you can't (legally) put the rom back into a cartidge...)
What about making your own games and playing them on your cartridge-based videogame?
Eeprom's can be used for this reason, but the piracy possibilites turn these kind of devices illegal...

My comment about "Piracy really hurts the big companies?"
for an example: If you had a car factory, developed a new technology to make cars more efficient and had this technology patented.
Let's say this technology was a little expensive, but paid for itself in means of economy.
You'd begin making these economic but expensive cars. Selling them well and having a little profit margin.
A car factory of another country bought one of your cars and developed a similar, but lower quality version of your technology. They start selling cars at a lower price than your cars.
Your cars begin to sell less, but still are selling.
The other company cars sell a lot more than yours, and are making more profit also.
Would you accept this situation? Another company having more profit than yours, by infringing your patent with a lower-quality copy of the same product. I bet you wouldn't.

Even if the game companies continue to sell games, they lose market and indirectly lose money with piracy. If there was no piracy, ppl who can pay for the games but don't buy originals for whatever reason, actually would buy originals if they wanted to play games...

The "Robin Hood theory" doesn't apply here. You aren't forced to play games. So if you want to play videogames and don't have enough money to pay, then get a job and start saving money...

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Piracy
« Reply #60 on: August 20, 2003, 06:52:41 AM »
>>You can't make copies of your games (not even for backup reasons they say)<<
Law says otherwise, if they chose to disagree with law, that's their thing. However a copyright holder is not permitted to disallow backup copies. So why would e.g. making a copy of Zelda:WW for backup purposes be illegal? Just because you cannot burn it to disk with current technology? So, what if you store it to burn it when the tech becomes available? DVDs tend to fall apart after a few years (DVD rot, better check your collection!), so concerns would be justified.

Quote from a FSF lawyer (related to SCO vs. IBM case): "You don't need permission to use copyrighted work - there is no exclusive right to use, unlike in Patent law which involves the rights to 'make, use or sell'".

Slightly related: A US District Court ruled in the RIAA vs. Grokster case that Grokster was legal, because although P2P services are used for piracy, there are legal uses and a service cannot be held responsible for copyright infringement performed by its users. This was based on a court descision that ruled video recorders lawful. The same reasoning could be applied to emulators, which were IIRC the reason this thread was even forked off.

I think it's pointless to continue discussion on that Word DMCA stuff, it was just meant as an example and won't happen like that in real life.

EDIT: Accidentally wrote "privacy" instead of "piracy" once... ooops.

Offline Uglydot

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #61 on: August 20, 2003, 07:16:49 AM »
Don't really have much more to say on the topic, but a nicely put, well informed post KDR...I was wondering about news from the SCO crap.

Offline Caliban

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #62 on: August 20, 2003, 07:37:08 AM »
By KDR:
Quote

DVDs tend to fall apart after a few years (DVD rot, better check your collection!)


What do you mean by the DVD rot? Can you explain such phenonema? Even if they do so how many years does a DVD last?

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Piracy
« Reply #63 on: August 20, 2003, 09:18:43 AM »
Article about DVD rot. I'm not too sure if some GC disks are affected...

Offline joeamis

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #64 on: August 20, 2003, 03:48:29 PM »
it is ILLEGAL to make backup copies of games.

as far as brazil situation, sony doesn't make money on the consoles, they lose money, and make up for the losses with software sold.
so the piracy situation in brazil probably resulted in them losing money.

i read the article on DVD rot, it says only 1 to 10% of DVDs are affected. (probably more likely 1-5 % than 5-10 %)
the guy the article focuses on owns 350 dvds and only 4 of them have any signs of dvd rot, 4/350= 1%

it also says it's due to the poorly designed cases.  So there really isn't a problem, store your games in a multi dvd case where they're not exposed= problem solved for that 1% of your dvds that may become effected.  a guy who works for software etc posted on PGC forums earlier that you should store games in those 'case logic' multi cases to cut down on scratches anyways, now you have another reason. (i think his post was in the GC disk problem topic)
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Offline manunited4eva22

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #65 on: August 20, 2003, 03:53:36 PM »
Well here is the issue with that though, Nintendo has that disc patented to hell. They could get away with arguing patent infringment occurred in order to receive the back up.

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Piracy
« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2003, 04:29:15 AM »
The original "is an emulator legal" thing spawned about a PS1 game. It just got broadened over time...
BTW, why didn't they sue the guys who found out how to make an ISO of it? (and why was it so hard to find out how to do that if it's detailed in the database of the USPTO anyway?)

joe: Why is it illegal?

Section 117, US Copyright Act:
(a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:

(1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or

(2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful.

Like I said, (1) could be laid out to allow making a copy (in this case ROM) to use the program (Game) with a certain machine (your PC). I see no reason why games should be exempted from this rule. If you can dig up the corresponding section of the law I'd be thankful.

Offline joeamis

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2003, 03:30:28 PM »
i did alot of research earlier on in this topic, and
I don't have time for that anymore, I'm busy...
it is illegal to make copies of console games
if I had time I would cite all the sources that say this but I don't.
but... it is ILLEGAL to make copies of console games, period.
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2003, 03:38:41 PM »
It doesn't really matter if emulators and ROMs are technically legal or technically not- people are going to do it either way.
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Offline joeamis

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #69 on: August 23, 2003, 04:04:46 PM »
true but the current discussion here was over legality.
until the Govt steps in like they are now doing with kazaa
people will continue to get games free...

if you want roms and emulators get them now because in a number of years
the Govt will probably take swift action as the game industry is becoming
larger and larger
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #70 on: August 23, 2003, 04:30:22 PM »
The government may be taking actions against file sharing programs like Kazaa, but that's one element of pirating out of many. I can never see the government, or private orginizations, for that matter, ever fully stamping out piracy. I admire their determination and they certainly are stemming the problem, but I hope they don't expect to destroy it completely.

Besides, if you knock down one file sharing program another pops up to take it's place, plus some underdogs. After Napster went out Kazaa rose up, and after Kazaa's gone, another file sharing program will quickly rise. File sharing has a ways to go before it's gone.
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Offline manunited4eva22

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2003, 06:10:47 AM »
Agreed mouse clicker, it will never be gone. But if you can make it hard enough for a lot of people to do it, then you win the battle. That's all the RIAA and company want. Take it out of the mainstream.

RE:Piracy
« Reply #72 on: September 14, 2003, 04:04:27 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: joeamis
it is ILLEGAL to make backup copies of games.


The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the original owner is legally entitled to make backup copies of his cassettes, videotapes, diskettes, CDs, DVDs, and on and on.  That ruling includes software and games stored on CDs/DVDs.  So in America at least, it is okay to backup ALL your entertainment media.  You have the right to preserve your purchase in secondary/backup format.

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Anyway, here's my opinion on the matter:

CURRENT-GEN PIRACY (PS2,GCN,XBX) = bad.  Reason: It hurts the profits of these companies and damages their ability to bring out future games for us gamers.


PREVIOUS-GEN PIRACY (PS1, N64, Sega MS, Atari, etc) = okay.  Reason: Since these games are out-of-print and no longer available, no harm is done or profits reduced.  For example, where can I go to get a copy of Atari's Quadrun or the Sega Master System's Phantasy Star 1?  Nowhere.  My only option is emulation.


So, I agree with companies trying to shut down current-generation piracy, but previous generation emulation I think is perfectly acceptable.

 
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #73 on: September 14, 2003, 06:53:32 AM »
Saying that it's okay to pirate older games is just stupid- would you steal an old record from a record store? No! It's the same thing as stealing anything else. True older games are very rare, but that doesn't justify pirating them.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Piracy
« Reply #74 on: September 14, 2003, 07:20:24 AM »
m_c: That's called abandonware. Many sites out there host games that noone (at least not their publisher) cares for anymore, someby defunct companies, others just gone out of print some time ago. These sites are (unlike warez sites) tolerated by publishers. Technically it's illegal, yes, but noone cares.