Author Topic: Piracy  (Read 20793 times)

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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2003, 06:18:12 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: HiTmaN
...if you want to pirate go ahead if you dont shut up and dont pirate.


That makes absolutely no sense.  The point is that those who do pirate will eventually screw it all up for the rest of us.  It saddens me that the majority of those who pirate have absolutely no idea what they are doing.  And apparently my earlier post wasn't received.  If you can't afford to buy something, then get a damn job!  
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Offline DRJ

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2003, 06:27:07 PM »
Piracy does hurt businesses, but not newarly as much as they say. On KaZaA there are millions of people sharing billions of files, and the music industry is still making money. The truth is, the music industry got caught with their pants down. MP3s came around and all of a sudden you could take a wav file and reduce it by 90% and keep the quality. Sharing over the net is a breeze even with dial up. And what has the music industry done to stop this? They sued the crap out of Napster and put them out of business and file sharing didnt die, it just adapted. Target the companies that run servers that share files, fine we just wont use servers we'll just connect to other PCs. The music industry could have worked with Napster to make what they were doing legal and profitable, but they didnt.

Music Cds cost like $18 for a movie soundtrack, and the DVD for the movie is $15, whats wrong with that picture?

Piracy will always be a problem. It is up to the developer to take whatever measure they can to make it sooo dificult to copy that most people will not.

Nintendo has a lot of piracy going on with Gameboy / GBA games being copied. And that system is making them all their money. Pokemon Ruby/Saphire has probably sold close to 10 million copies worldwide by now.

Does Piracy hurt? yes, but not as bad as these multibillion dollar companies want us to believe. Oh no, M$ only made 20 billion last year, without piracy they could have made 30 billion, boo hoo.

Just for the record I do not pirate comsole games. PC games/software sure and music CDs, sure. DVDs are too much hassle for me, but I will download movies before they come out occasionally. Like I got X2 and MAtrix Reloaded, but I will buy those DVDs when they come out.
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Offline HiTmaN

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2003, 07:00:23 PM »
Quote

That makes absolutely no sense. The point is that those who do pirate will eventually screw it all up for the rest of us. It saddens me that the majority of those who pirate have absolutely no idea what they are doing. And apparently my earlier post wasn't received. If you can't afford to buy something, then get a damn job!


*Sigh* guess I have to come back because people just cant understand. It makes perfect sense. If you want to pirate then DO IT. If you dont then DONT PIRATE (hopefully you can understand that, unless I have to put it all in caps) and just shut up and stop complaining. You complain and that gets you nowhere. Not of all us can get a job because we all arent at the age, and not all of us have $15 for the newest cd that comes out, so why do that when you can get it FREE.  And the majority of people that pirate have an idea of what they are doing because apparently its pissing you off.

Why cant people understand that if they dont want to pirate they dont have to, its an option. Why do you continue to say it hurts buisnesses when we know this and we do not care. The music industry has enough money going around and its a company that makes millions off people who work hard at first, buy a mansion and get lazy. Big buisnesses and little buisnesses may lose some profit but its nothing they cant handle, I havent heard of a buisness going bankrupt because of piracy. Don't even say anything about the video game industry because it hasn't even reached the point to where its a problem yet. The numbers posted earlier were 100% BS. Its hard to pirate games for the GC and if it happeneds to Sony or Microsoft its nothing they cant handle.
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2003, 08:09:01 PM »
Just because the industry makes a lot of money already doesn't justify pirating at all- it just lessens the impact.

And just because you can't afford a CD is no justification, either- in fact, it's worse. It's no better than robbing a convenience store of some magazines because you can't afford them. CD's are by no means necessary- if you were stealing food or water because you couldn't afford it, I'd feel a bit differently, but music is pure entertainment, which you can most definitely live without.
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Offline aoi tsuki

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RE: Piracy
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2003, 08:12:21 PM »
Quote

Not of all us can get a job because we all arent at the age, and not all of us have $15 for the newest cd that comes out, so why do that when you can get it FREE.


You can't get something so you resort to pirating it? Why not just get the best you can and go to a store and physically steal it? You'll get an authentic disc, and high quality printed materials. Jeez, before i got a job, when i wanted something i'd have to save for it with whatever money i was given, or just not get it at all. And there are places to get used discs. i'd rather put my money in a smaller business like that than contribute to Best Buy's success (just an example) anyways.

The fact is, i doubt groups like the RIAA are really worried about most of the people pirating today. What they're really worried about is the next generation of pirates, those that have no concept of going to the store and buying a CD when they can just pirate it. As tough a sell as buying digital music is now, it'll be even tougher for that group. i remember a similar fear back in the mid-80s to early 90s, but with the web involved and the computer established as a home fixture now, i think it's really justified.  
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Offline HiTmaN

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2003, 08:19:12 PM »
Quote

Why not just get the best you can and go to a store and physically steal it?

You obviously dont know the consequences if you get cought. Now that I'm on probation, I think twice before I do anything illegal EVER. I don't have a job, I wont be getting one until next year. When I do have a job I am going to get as many free things as possible, because instead of spending $15 on something I could get free, I could put that money towards something I actually need.
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Offline joeamis

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2003, 08:22:52 PM »
mouseclicker quote: What I'd like to know is if pirating is such a huge problem, why aren't entire industries shutting down because of it? I watched a show a few days ago which said that it's estimated that $9 billion worth of cars are stolen every year in America. Why, then, isn't the car industry completely folding up because of this?
---- $9 billion in cars stolen is a small percentage of the $ cars sold.  Entire industries don't shutdown unless the majority of the companies in the industry go bankrupt...

quote Hitman: Say 1,000 people decide to burn a cd. Thats about $13,000 the artist is missing on. BIG DEAL. Half this artists are in commercials that pay well over that, not even to mention the amounts from merchandise and concert tickets.
----so you're saying half of the artists in the music industry are in commercials...hmm in the last 10 years I've only seen about 15 music artists in commercials...

quote mouseclicker: If you ask me, a dollar to listen to a song is too much. I never buy CD's on which each song costs a dollar or more.
----so you've never bought a cd that has 15 or less songs on it?  I find that very hard to believe...

quote mouseclicker: The numbers posted earlier were 100% BS.
----650 million last year for piracy of Nintendo, 3 billion for industry, these #'s are straight from Nintendo so I guess you believe Nintendo is 100% bs huh.

BTW you can fit the entire NES library of games (over 1000 games) on 1 blank cd,
you can also hold 10 N64 games on 1 blank cd....
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Offline kennyb27

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2003, 08:32:41 PM »
HiTmaN, what's the difference between stealing something from a store and stealing something while on your computer?  At least admit that what you are doing is WRONG.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2003, 08:41:05 PM »
"When I do have a job I am going to get as many free things as possible, because instead of spending $15 on something I could get free, I could put that money towards something I actually need."

...

The words of a Grade-A cheapskate.  Not to mention someone who doesn't seem to understand that people should not be getting these kinds of things for free...*sigh*

And just to add something, if you don't actually need the music, then why bother? (Hey, it's pretty much implied up there that you don't need the music)  
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Piracy
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2003, 03:52:09 AM »
While a N spokes(wo)man might say emulators promote piracy, piracy isn't the main usage of an emulator. Just because you can play pirated games on an emulator that doesn't mean the guy who wrote it wanted you to do that, just like the GBA can play imported games but N doesn't want you to import them. Just because it is possible to do something that doesn't have to be its main usage. I can club somebody to death with my PC, does that mean the PC is intended to be used for that? Naah, the large case is there because the cooler clipped into the PSU, not because I'm planning to kill people. You can outlaw emulators taking all legitimate users' freedoms away or you can just outlaw its illegitimate uses. And you may never forget that even an EULA can be restricted by local laws and some "commands" contained within them might be just scare that's not legally binding. See MS EULAs for examples.

The whole IP law is a pretty ambiguous and depends on the judge who interprets it. Example: Would you have thought a remote control is a "device or method to circumvent a copyprotection mechanism"? Neither did I before the judge said so. That was in a lawsuit of a garage gate manufacturer against a company that produced 3rd party remote controls for said gates. This was possible via the DMCA, which was brought to us by the RIAA/MPAA (which I therefore call "suit terrorists", as they hate our freedoms). The very same DMCA could make it illegal to read a Word document (by any author) without Microsoft's consent.

Some judges might let you off the hook for minor offenses (like playing a legally owned game with an emulator) if they accept you didn't know this wasn't legal. Usually those judges are human beings as well and there is no major sum involved that would make a won lawsuit profitable for the company. It's like fan art, there is only a single case of a company suing fans for fan art (Marvel vs. Skindex) because it's such a minor offense. Some laws even require the copyright infringement to be obvious (German law on private copying, for example) for it to be a real criminal act.

The stop sign analogy doesn't work because A: If you don't know what a stop sign means you don't have a driver's licence and B: It can cause physical harm to you and those around you. I have no numbers to back it up, but I'm sure emulators have harmed fewer people than a Pokemon TV broadcast (650 000 epileptic seizures in Japan during one episode according to Guinness).
The emulator is a pretty ambiguous legal situation, else Microsoft would have shut down Wine looooooong ago.

Interesting facts:
-A law designed to reduce spamming and ease criminal investigation, which is in place in some US states, indirectly prohibits email encryption and usage of "honeypods" (computers used to attract hackers to study their behaviour and used exploits).
-The RIAA's tactic to swamp P2P services with fake MP3s is legally fraud and thus any person downloading such a file can sue the RIAA for fraud, regardless of the attempted copyright infringement. There's even a precedent that a criminal may still sue companies, I think it involves suing a car manufacturer for a broken down escape car or something to that effect.

Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2003, 05:11:03 AM »
"---- $9 billion in cars stolen is a small percentage of the $ cars sold. Entire industries don't shutdown unless the majority of the companies in the industry go bankrupt..."

Are you sure? Do you know how much cars sell? And if it's such a small number, why are they making a bigger case out of car theft than piracy, which is supposedly taking a much larger percentage? They have entire police units whose sole job is to hunt down stolen cars, yet piracy still goes unpunished, even when apparently it's more threatening to it's industry.

And you're right the majority of the companies have to go bankrupt for an industry to collapse, and yet how many companies have gone bankrupt due to piracy AT ALL?


"----so you've never bought a cd that has 15 or less songs on it? I find that very hard to believe..."

Why should it be? I'm 15 years old- I don't get a whole lot of money, seeing as I don't have a job, so what I do get I spend almost exclusively on videogames. A CD that has 15 or less songs on it just isn't worth the cost for me, especially since I'll most likely only end up liking a few of the songs anyway.

"quote mouseclicker: The numbers posted earlier were 100% BS.
----650 million last year for piracy of Nintendo, 3 billion for industry, these #'s are straight from Nintendo so I guess you believe Nintendo is 100% bs huh"

That's Hitman who posted that, not me.
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Offline Termin8Anakin

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RE: Piracy
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2003, 05:45:49 AM »
If you look at kids from the 80s and early 90s, we all had to save up our money to buy our games, or wait till special occasions to get them. Not only did that heighten our want for the game, it made the experience more satisfying. Nowadays, kids just get them burned, and are done with the games after a few hours.

Now, I don't wanna pirate DVDs. I have a great surround sound system for a reason, and I hate it when my sister brings home a VCD of a movie her friend got from Hong Kong (the most recent is Matrix Reloaded). The sound sux and the quality sux (always taped by a camera from the cinema). One of the things i was surprised by most however, was how the pirates got their hands on the full 'making-of' feature for Reloaded (I always wondered how they made the Burly Brawl - now I know!).
Like I said before, I only burn CDs if I have to.

One of the things that's really interesting about this whole fiasco is why nobody has really said that it was illegal to tape movies off TV. Is it? If not, then it is basically the same thing as burning CDs. If it is, then bad luck. Commercials may be a pain to watch if you taped them, but at least we can pause them out.
When i do pirate things (i try to avoid it where i can), i don't have this voice in the back of my head claiming that i will go to hell or something. I know it's wrong, but bloody hell,  it's not something i trouble myself over. Unless EVERYTHING of mine was pirated, or I did something SO wrong that I should be running from the feds, then I have nothing to worry about. And neither should you.

And Nintendo........all of us here love them right? So don't pirate their games or buy pirated games! We wanna give them the most support we can give! I do!!
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Offline evilnate

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2003, 06:15:41 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Termin8Anakin
One of the things that's really interesting about this whole fiasco is why nobody has really said that it was illegal to tape movies off TV. Is it? If not, then it is basically the same thing as burning CDs. If it is, then bad luck. Commercials may be a pain to watch if you taped them, but at least we can pause them out.




There's actually a big, important difference between taping a movie or television show off TV and burning a pirated CD, DVD, or game.  On commercial television, the rights for the movie are not bought and paid for by the viewer, but by the advertisers.  The movie, whether it's being viewed as it airs or on a tape, has been paid for.  The viewer never, at any time, is required to pay for the right to view the movie.  The advertisers are providing the opportunity to the viewer in exchange for the benifit of promoting and selling their products.

On the other hand, the sole source of income for companies producing games, CDs or DVDs is the direct sale to consumers of their products.  

A closer analogy would be someone with a cable descrambler.  Those people are doing the same thing as those who pirate software.

Offline manunited4eva22

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2003, 07:19:47 AM »
Hitman, if you think really hard about not doing illegal things, why do you continue copyright infringment? It is a crime and it's punishments are a bit more than your current probation.

700-10,000 dollars per violation. Possibility of up to 6 months in federal prison per violation.  That is the US law anyway. I'm sure it could be lesser in canada, and in europe, but it seems like big blue and a few other companies are pressing for stricter laws there.

Offline thecubedcanuck

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2003, 07:23:17 AM »
The reason I am NOT against piracy is because maybe it will open up the eyes of corporate america. Maybe they will realize that CD's are way to expensive, especially when the target market for them is in most cases minimum wage making teens, who shouldnt have to fork over three hours of pay for a CD with 2 good songs on it.  Entertainers dont deserve to make 7 figure salaries for simply maging music, which for years is what they said it is all about. How many times have you heard a musician say "I am in it for the music, the money means nothing", well it sure seems to mean something now, doesn,t it Mr. Hetfield?

Make enertainment affordable, give me value for my money and then I will stop pirating, until then the music intustry can kiss my you know what.

As for games, the same thing goes.

Listening to Millionaire executives, give their sob stories from their private jets is simply laughable IMO.
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Offline thecubedcanuck

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2003, 07:24:36 AM »
The reason I am NOT against piracy is because maybe it will open up the eyes of corporate america. Maybe they will realize that CD's are way to expensive, especially when the target market for them is in most cases minimum wage making teens, who shouldnt have to fork over three hours of pay for a CD with 2 good songs on it.  Entertainers dont deserve to make 7 figure salaries for simply maging music, which for years is what they said it is all about. How many times have you heard a musician say "I am in it for the music, the money means nothing", well it sure seems to mean something now, doesn,t it Mr. Hetfield?

Make enertainment affordable, give me value for my money and then I will stop pirating, until then the music intustry can kiss my you know what.

As for games, the same thing goes.

Listening to Millionaire executives, give their sob stories from their private jets is simply laughable IMO.
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Offline manunited4eva22

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2003, 07:33:30 AM »
Listening to a friend of mine get sent to jail for running a warez site was indeed a sad story. Boo hoo should not always be used sarcastically you know.

Offline joeamis

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2003, 03:08:24 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
While a N spokes(wo)man might say emulators promote piracy, piracy isn't the main usage of an emulator.

Yes it is, no doubt here.
Quote


Just because you can play pirated games on an emulator that doesn't mean the guy who wrote it wanted you to do that, just like the GBA can play imported games but N doesn't want you to import them.

So guys who make emulators for systems out right now, don't want you to play any games on it?- which is the only way you wouldn't be pirating...
Quote


Just because it is possible to do something that doesn't have to be its main usage. I can club somebody to death with my PC, does that mean the PC is intended to be used for that? Naah, the large case is there because the cooler clipped into the PSU, not because I'm planning to kill people. You can outlaw emulators taking all legitimate users' freedoms away or you can just outlaw its illegitimate uses.

Horrible analogy of your PC being for clubbing people to death as a reason why someone might use it.  There are not legitimate users of emulators, especially emulators of this generation of consoles.  You cannot just outlaw emulators illegitimate uses, the only way to do that is outlaw emulators entirely, so you're contradicting yourself.
Quote


This was possible via the DMCA, which was brought to us by the RIAA/MPAA (which I therefore call "suit terrorists", as they hate our freedoms). The very same DMCA could make it illegal to read a Word document (by any author) without Microsoft's consent.

They don't "hate" our freedoms like terrorists do, they hate illegal use.  The analogy of the Word document is horrible, Microsoft licenses everyone who owns MWord to use it.
Quote


Some judges might let you off the hook for minor offenses (like playing a legally owned game with an emulator) if they accept you didn't know this wasn't legal.

For someone to not realize this isn't legal is just ridiculous.  It's so obvious.
Quote


The stop sign analogy doesn't work because A: If you don't know what a stop sign means you don't have a driver's licence

Driver's licenses are issued every four years, if someone was in a coma or if someone develops alzheimers in this time and then returns to driving and don't know to stop, they're still breaking the law.

mouseclicker wrote: Are you sure? Do you know how much cars sell? And if it's such a small number, why are they making a bigger case out of car theft than piracy, which is supposedly taking a much larger percentage? They have entire police units whose sole job is to hunt down stolen cars, yet piracy still goes unpunished, even when apparently it's more threatening to it's industry.

I respond: According to data from the National Automobile Dealers Assn., total dealership revenue last year was $679 billion.  They're making such a case because of all the people who report their cars stolen every year, and the related issue with Insurance companies who cover those owners.  (the cars stolen are years old and not worth as much as brand new cars, that's why $9 billion sounds low, but in actuality it's alot more cars stolen than if they were worth as much as new cars)  AND Piracy DOES NOT GO UNPUNISHED, the guy who developed Napster now owes millions of dollars.

and you claim you don't own 1 cd with 15 songs or less on it, whatever.... the majority of albums out have less than 16 songs on them.

Now to back up Evilnate's point of: On the other hand, the sole source of income for companies producing games, CDs or DVDs is the direct sale to consumers of their products.
me: Exactly!  Do you want games to start having commercials and advertising in them other than a company's name/logo on a texture (think GTurismo3) because of Piracy?
I don't think so, since you guys bitch about having a pop up window show up when you access a site...

as far as music artists and $, it's not their fault it is the record COMPANIES fault, not only do record companies screw us over, they screw over music artists.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Piracy
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2003, 10:52:52 PM »
An emulator surely has its legal uses, there are TONS of freeware GBA games that were developed by using an emulator or a ROM burner. Or you could rip a rom image from a legally owned game to use the emulators debug features (slot machines are a lot easier to win in 10x slomo...). The ROM ripping is basically the same as ripping an MP3 from a CD (which is permitted under fair use), so if one is illegal the other is as well (and all of the CD/DVD-Rip software out there would be illegal as well). Some piracy enabling things weren't designed for piracy, like DeCSS, which permitted DVD viewing under Linux (and was ruled as "free speech") or region code defeating mod chips (or the freeloader, I'm sure it'd run warez as well).

The MSWord thing is there: MS EULAs contain a paragraph that allows MS to revoke the license without reason. I'm sure law prevents them from doing that, but still... And, of course, they can stop interoperation with their software. Say, if you got a company and all your documents are written in MSWord format, you decide to switch to linux for cost and performance reasons. Now, Linux has Star Office and Open Office, which can open .doc files. BUT, if MS doesn't want you to do that, they can legally prevent you from opening those files. Means you're screwed.

Also, I'd assume that console emulators are fully legal considering a certain PS emulator was sold in many retail stores and I'd assume that what you can buy in a store isn't illegal.

Offline ThePerm

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2003, 08:00:23 AM »
hmm, i had alot of pirated dc games..but you know what? Burned games get passed around alot, and i don't have them anymore. I miss Shenmue, Shenmue 2 and Soul Calibur. Also youd think having 879 NES games on a disk would make you super happy. Well the truth beign playing it on anythign other then the NES or a Nintendo console is less fun.  
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Offline vudu

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RE: Piracy
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2003, 10:35:30 AM »
hm...haven't heard from hitman in a couple days...maybe he's back in prison.  so sad.

on a side note, i used to pirate PC games when i was like 18, but stopped because i would never really get that much enjoyment out of them.  i always seemed to enjoy my games more if i dropped the cash to pay for them.  if i got them for free i would play them halfway through, download something else and move on.  if i paid for the game i would be sure to get my money's worth out of the game.
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Offline joeamis

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2003, 12:19:47 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
An emulator surely has its legal uses, there are TONS of freeware GBA games that were developed by using an emulator or a ROM burner. Or you could rip a rom image from a legally owned game to use the emulators debug features (slot machines are a lot easier to win in 10x slomo...). The ROM ripping is basically the same as ripping an MP3 from a CD (which is permitted under fair use), so if one is illegal the other is as well (and all of the CD/DVD-Rip software out there would be illegal as well).
The MSWord thing is there: MS EULAs contain a paragraph that allows MS to revoke the license without reason. I'm sure law prevents them from doing that, but still... And, of course, they can stop interoperation with their software. Say, if you got a company and all your documents are written in MSWord format, you decide to switch to linux for cost and performance reasons. Now, Linux has Star Office and Open Office, which can open .doc files. BUT, if MS doesn't want you to do that, they can legally prevent you from opening those files. Means you're screwed.
Also, I'd assume that console emulators are fully legal considering a certain PS emulator was sold in many retail stores and I'd assume that what you can buy in a store isn't illegal.


That's why none of those games made using emulators are for sale because it's illegal to do so.  Rom ripping is not the same as ripping an MP3 from cd.  Roms are illegal, MP3 for personal use off your cd's are legal.  

You're not screwed if you can't open .doc files, all you have to do is transfer the text which can be done very easily with a variety of software.  Actually that PS emulator was pulled from stores after action from Sony.  It was available before it was deemed illegal.  
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Offline Zelda

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RE: Piracy
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2003, 01:32:00 PM »
I think roms should definitely be legal if you own the games you have roms of. I also don't see anything wrong with getting roms of old games that aren't sold anymore. If you were to buy those games gaming companies wouldn't make any money anyway. I think Nintendo said that roms hurt game sales... well.. I certainly don't buy any less games because I have SNES roms.

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Piracy
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2003, 10:48:19 PM »
>>You're not screwed if you can't open .doc files, all you have to do is transfer the text which can be done very easily with a variety of software.<<

The program that transfers the text has to open and decrypt the file just like your editor has to and therefore would be illegal as well in this situation ("circumvention of copyright mechanism").

And I still don't see why ripping MP3s is legal if ripping of ROMs isn't. Both are images of existing media which are played using a special program. The media type surely doesn't matter.

Offline S-U-P-E-R

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RE:Piracy
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2003, 11:14:46 PM »
I must admit I only skimmed this tldr thread, but somebody on another forum brought up and interesting point about the mysterious brain of a pirate that I wholeheartedly agree with;

People might feel justified about downloading mp3s, but they never (or rarely or whatever) feel justified pirating games or movies. Probably because the game and movie biz folks aren't a bunch of extortionist thugs.