Topic: Hey! DC's got stuff too... (Official Thread for the DCU of Movies and TV)

[Spak-Spang]

I saw someone write about it. Basically they said it was completely mismarketed. And they blame it on the R rating because the character isn’t Deadpool. She appeals to several age groups and genders. The R rating kept alot of potential viewers from the show. The marketing as a birds of prey movie which it isn’t. Also is a problem. Also Harley Quinn’s first outing with almost zero joker is foolish. She can be her own woman. But at least the Harley Quinn cartoon understood she has to earn it and work through her abuse and trauma from joker.  Finally they said the story isn’t ambitious or special. It is basic. Well DC movies should be character driven and anything but basic.

[nickmitch]

They went really weird with the Birds of Prey in a way I'm not sure would resonate with fans of the comic.  And the R-rating certainly keeps kids out of the theatres.  I personally didn't even know the movie was coming out this weekend until I saw news of the box office, but maybe that's just me.

The movie has a 60 on metacritic, which counts as "mixed", and for a superhero flick, I'm inclined to think it ain't bad.

[Spak-Spang]

That is a good point the marketing was so bad I didn’t know either.

[BlackNMild2k1]

since non one knew it was even out yet, and the fact that everyone just referred to it as the Harley Quinn movie anyway...... WB/DC has now CHANGED THE NAME OF THE MOVIE 🤣 to help boost the damn ticket sales.

It is know officially titled: Harley Quinn: Birds of Prey

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/birds-of-prey-gets-a-new-theatrical-title-after-po/1100-6473574/

should have called it Harley Quinn & the Birds of Prey
unless Harley Quinn is about to become a series in itself....
(i.e. future sequel = Harley Quinn: the Joker's Punchline)

or switch the title around and call it: The Emancipation of Harley Quinn: Birds of Prey

[nickmitch]

Big yikes on that one.  Haven't seen anything like this since Edge of Tomorrow, which was a fine name, but all the posters had "Live. Die. Repeat." as the tag line, which was just so much better.

[BranDonk Kong]

People are wondering why it's doing poorly: my guess is because it looks stupid and has gotten bad reviews.

[Luigi Dude]

Even if the film had a better marketing campaign, it still would have bombed just for the fact Suicide Squad was complete trash.  There is literally nothing redeemable about that movie, and the Harley/Joker subplot was one of the worst aspects of that film.

I mean some can make the argument that Wonder Woman and Aquaman did good despite being connected to BvS and Justice League.  Difference is, Wonder Woman was barely in BvS until the ending, and her fighting at the end was one of the few good things in that movie.  Same with Aquaman in Justice League being the least prominent member of the League for most of the movie.  So it's easier for audiences to go into their solo films, since their characters weren't viewed as the major issues in the films they debuted in.

In comparison, Deadshot and Harley Quinn were the 2 most important characters by far in Suicide Squad with the most screentime out of the whole cast.  So to the average movie goer, that was her movie, and so it's a lot harder for Birds of Prey to separate itself from all the crap in Suicide Squad, when it's main character was literally the main character of the other film and some of the worst crap was related to her storyline from said film.

I mean there's a reason the James Gunn Suicide Squad is basically being treated as a soft reboot.  Yeah, Harley Quinn will be in that movie as well, but with the amount of new characters he's bringing to the cast and the fact the tone of the film is said to be different, I wouldn't be surprised if her role will be reduced as well.  I imagine much of the advertising for James Gunn Suicide Squad will focus on the new that's he's bringing in, instead of reminding people of the old.

[BeautifulShy]

Question for the forum here how many of you actually seen the movie?  I am generally curious.

I saw it the other night and the title is perfect for the film. The original one not this new one. 

The movie is all about Harley and her breakup and all that ensues thereafter because Harley broke up with Mr J in the most Harley way possible.  Taking the truck and it barrels into Axis Chemicals and Harley leaving the necklace that M J gave her. The rest of the movie is all about Harley not having that protection that being Mr Js girl gave her and what she needs to survive with everyone against her now.  That trailer up above with the fighting is like one of the last main parts of the movie before the movies conclusion which surprised me how it ended in a good way.

The R rating was needed for the content because there is some bits in this movie where it does get really dark. After all Victor Zsasz is in this movie. I will leave that at that.   

As far as being connected to Suicide Squad the movie really only has 2 things in the movie and one is the starting point and is a flashback and one is just a call back saying Harley knows someone from the Suicide Squad and that is it.
 Birds of Prey and the Fantabulous Emancipation of Harley Quinn is its own movie and it is a very good movie with everything being tied together in the movie itself and I highly recommend. 

[BeautifulShy]

As to the reviews on Meta Critic has anyone read the reviews for them.  This is review bombing in progress since it doesn't align with what they wanted it to be instead of judging it for what it is.

[UncleBob]

I have not seen it yet - it's gonna be a wait for home release for me.

However, Zsasz was utilized in Gotham well (at first.  he became the recurring gun for hire that made him seem overused and undermotivated by the end) with no need for an R rating.  Not that I care one way or another about ratings.  I've always found it odd when people try to use them to critique a movie (either way).

In this case, I don't think the rating made a huge difference.  Harley has become a bit of a sell-out character where women in their 30s buy her tshirts because she's "cool" - and that's about the limit of her power, a marketable token character where my contemporaries do things like post a pic to Facebook of her and the Joker embraced with a caption like "I want to find the Joker to my Harley" with zero understanding of the psychological trama that Harley and Joker's relationship is.  Suicide Squad did her (nor anyone related to the film) no favors at all.  I just can't see anyone  - regardless of age - going out of their way to see this movie unless it was already on their radar.

[oohhboy]

As to the reviews on Meta Critic has anyone read the reviews for them.  This is review bombing in progress since it doesn't align with what they wanted it to be instead of judging it for what it is.

This would only be true if this was an original film. Being a Harley Quinn movie it has expectations. Joker and The Harley Quinn cartoon managed to meet them and thus rewarded. Doesn't help it has the stink of Suicide Squad and having them be the Birds of Prey is a real ass backwards head scratcher. The Huntress working with her like what??

"No one wanted or needs this but please buy it and give it a thumbs up". Have you considered there isn't review bombing? Maybe giving what the audience wants is a good idea? The cartoon gave us what we wanted and by being superior makes HQ:BoP redundant. Even without HQ show Joker raised the bar which is a GOOD thing.

[nickmitch]

Joker had the advantage of throwing out any expectations when they said they were making a movie that wasn't grounded in the comics and would be more artsy than anything.  With Birds of Prey, I don't know where the expectations were.  You almost knew it'd be a Harley Quinn movie with that character coming straight from Suicide Squad.

[BeautifulShy]

This would only be true if this was an original film. Being a Harley Quinn movie it has expectations. Joker and The Harley Quinn cartoon managed to meet them and thus rewarded. Doesn't help it has the stink of Suicide Squad and having them be the Birds of Prey is a real ass backwards head scratcher. The Huntress working with her like what??

   I guess I get to spoil movies now, thanks... All the characters in the movie have their own things going on and have their own motivations. Huntress had all of her family get killed at the start of the movie over their family diamond which had the location of their riches within the diamond but her mother passed it onto her and one of the henchman spared Huntress live and she trained to get revenge on that crime family. Montoya is a smart and hardworking captain but everyone in the department doesn't respect her for all she does and even takes credit for things she does as their own accomplishments. She is right most of the time on her hunches and in the movie she tries to track down who has the diamond which Cassandra Cain does.  Cassandra Cain is a young girl who has parents fighting all the time and she is a pick pocket who always gets caught who after taking the diamond and swallows it everyone is after her for the diamond.  Wanting to cut open her stomach or getting the diamond out through less harsh means.  Black Canary is an undercover informant and singer at Black Mask's club who has to become Black Mask's driver after Harley did a number on the former drivers legs when she was acting like she ran the place because of the immunity she had from being Joker's girlfriend. All of their stories merge into the 3rd act when they all get to the amusement park for their own reasons.  It isn't till Black Mask and all of his men show up for pretty much everyone of our heroines/anti heroines and they have no choice but to work together to make it out alive.  Thanks oohhboy for making me spoil the movie to explain why things are going the way they are in the movie.

[broodwars]

I would also note that, while Harley was the best part of Suicide Squad, that is one hell of a curve she got graded on. The same with Wil Smith's performance as Will Smith in that film. Rushing out a pseudo-sequel starring Harley & just stamping the Birds of Prey name on it wasn't a recipe for success.

They would have been better off making a dedicated Harley movie & doing BoP later on down the line when the DCEU (whatever it is now) & its characters are better established. Not everyone watches the CW TV shows, where some of these characters are better-known.

[oohhboy]

I wouldn't say they threw out all the expectations as people expect to see a Joker rather than someone called Joker. Hamill, Nicholson, Caesar and Ledger Joker are very different but no one argues over their legitimacy. If Joaquin couldn't legitimise his take the rest of the movie doesn't matter. Leto fucked that up and has been disavowed.

Which causes a problem for BoP. HQ can't "Free" herself if Joker isn't the antagonist. HQ show has Joker as an antagonist but she isn't free at the end of the first episode. It's an ongoing arc where she continues to be abused making every step towards freedom that much sweeter. If you can't get Joker dump the freedom angle by having an adventure during one of those "Mister J told me to **** off" periods.

The lack of Poison Ivy is a death blow for fans of HQ's "Emancipation". The creators had no idea where they were going understanding only the most shallow aspects of HQ's deep mental issues.

That's not really who Huntress is based on my limited knowledge. She is meant to be a willing to kill version of Batman, she wouldn't give a damn about the diamond other than a way to track down the murderers. The other characters have the same issue where they are illegitimate, couldn't sell this version of them, a common complaint.

It has the same issue of SS with too many characters but at least SS didn't **** around getting them together so they can interact.

It doesn't work for the fans. Causals has zero hype. Being effectively a sequel to SS poisoned it. The R rating is underutilised. It chases Deadpool without understanding why it worked. It doesn't understand HQ freeing her too early instead at the end making it an abandoned arc.

[BeautifulShy]

The lack of Poison Ivy is a death blow for fans of HQ's "Emancipation". The creators had no idea where they were going understanding only the most shallow aspects of HQ's deep mental issues.

I guess I get to spoil more of the movie.... In the animated intro Harley mentions that on top of Mr. J kicking her to the curb. Harley mentions a female partner which didn't work out. Most likely Ivy.

As far as Huntress she does her thing and kills most of the people on her list. Zsasz is the last person on her list and still alive who is after the diamond which at that point is at the Mr. J and Harleys old hideout.  Huntress kills Zsasz and then was going to peace out but it is a Mexican standoff because of all that has gone on through the movie between all the main characters until Black Mask shows up.  None of them are going to make it out alive alone so they work together. Huntress has a crossbow with limited ammo and Black Mask has bought an army to get rid of the gals so it makes sense to work together.

I swear everyone needs to see if so I am not argueing points which are layed out in the movie.

[Stratos]

That doesn't really combat Oohhboy's point. The lack of Poison Ivy in the film is a blow to fans of the Harley series. An off-the-cuff mention doesn't really do anyone any good in this film.

[Khushrenada]

I swear everyone needs to see if so I am not argueing points which are layed out in the movie.

Haven't read the spoilers but, yeah, I was planning on checking it out. Just wasn't in a rush to do so opening weekend. I've been interested in this movie since the first full length trailer. ShyGuy complained about the cinematographer earlier but it was that different look which helped sell me checking it from the first trailer.

I'll tell you what the real problem is here. Marvel's created unreal expectations for box office numbers. It's not like Marvel started off with Guardians of the Galaxy and Captain Marvel as a couple of their movies in phase 1. They went with characters that they felt had a much stronger name recognition within the public even if they might not have been the most popular like Spiderman or even Wolverine (X-Men). They also made their ambition pretty clear of wanting to connect their movies and lead to The Avengers which got more people to check out those films than might otherwise have gone to see just Thor or The Incredible Hulk. By building a united universe, each film became like a chapter that got people to see the next development and keep up. It started a snowball effect that they became bigger and bigger openings drawing in more and more people.

Right now, DC doesn't seem to have much of a shared universe. My impression of the film from the trailers and ads is that it is basically a stand-alone adventure. The truth is that even within DC's comics, Huntress and Black Canary struggle to stay relevant or utilized much. They've had their own titles that have come and gone with smaller runs. Birds of Prey did succeed for a long time before the New 52 reboot but the title was still more of a minor impact in the Universe as a whole compared to adventures with Batman, The Flash or Green Lantern, for example. Harley Quinn is probably the biggest character name draw for this film and she's a pretty recent creation compared to characters like Captain America or Iron Man. Moreover, it's only been in the last 5 years or so that DC's really been trying to expand her appeal and make her stand more on her own without Joker or Poison Ivy. In fact, it seems like they are trying to make her a bit more Deadpool-like within the DC realm.

Thus, a movie with second or even third level status heroes and villains that seems to be a stand-alone story with maybe vague connections to a previous mediocre film featuring one of the better characters from it, why would WB expect huge numbers? 33 million sounds about right. Since Wonder Woman, Aquaman and even Joker did big numbers cracking a billion, I guess WB now has sky-high expectations about everything. The assumption is that every comic book movie should be doing $70-$100 million on opening weekend thanks to Marvel or DC's big name properties but I think that's an unreal expectation and why the bubble bursts for so many other companies trying to hop on the shared universe money train. Especially with shifting away to a more stand-alone movie universe. In that case, some movies just aren't going to do big numbers and they should set expectations accordingly to the product not what has happened with a different property in different circumstances.

[BeautifulShy]

Yeah you are mostly right Khushrenada on the stand alone movie that BoP and The Emancipation of Harley Quinn is for the most part aside from the near end of the movie where Huntress, Black Canary and Renee Montoya becomes the new Birds of Prey. I personally don't want to see Barbara to go through what she went through to become Oracle just so fans can have a nice pretty bow to tie the original Birds of Prey within a movie.  F the Killing Joke.      

[ThePerm]

My biggest problem with Birds of Prey is the story telling sucked. It was a mess and all over the place. There was actually some good stuff buried underneath some incompetent garbage. The plot should have either been episodic following the perspective of a different character each episode or followed another character entirely. It just wasn't put together well.
Also, non-linear story telling only works is if the plots you're shifting around with are interesting. I saw imitations of Fincher, Boyle, and Tarantino, just not done well.

[oohhboy]

Just watch the cartoon show which is actually good.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Just watch the cartoon show which is actually good.

OMG, I'm watching S1 of the Harley Quinn cartoon and this is great.
it's fucked up, vulgar, gory, and hilarious.

I'm watching E7: The Line w/ Wanda Sykes and LMAO @ the family reunion resolution with the Big Bad Wolf and then the 3 Little Pigs. fucked up to the hilarious degree. LOL

[Spak-Spang]

Yeah, Harley Quinn's show is pretty good.  It seems to have a twisted but still accurate take on all the Batman characters.  I kinda take the stranger portrayal of characters as how Harley Quinn sees them.  It is so great to see that they gave Harley Quinn a good ensemble cast which helps balance her madness and tell a good story.  Also, Poison Ivy is easily my favorite version of Poison Ivy. 

[oohhboy]

I goddamn love Bain. His prison is just something else.

[broodwars]

*sigh*

Oh boy, here we go...Justice League Dark: Apokolips War.

I haven't seen a movie inspire such passionate hatred in me in quite a long time, and yet...it's not a terrible movie. It's just not a good one, either, and it embodies everything I despise about this particular era of DC animated work.

I really liked the 1st Justice League Dark movie, not the least of which because it introduced John Constantine to the DC animated films, voiced expertly as ever by Matt Ryan. When they announced there would be another of these films, I was delighted.  I had no goddamn idea what the movie would ACTUALLY be, because this has NOTHING to do with Justice League Dark beyond prominently featuring John Constantine.

Spoilers beware if you care.

What this movie ACTUALLY is is the conclusion to DC's long-running animated film universe that started with The Flashpoint Paradox (a genuinely enjoyable film). Unfortunately, after that 1st outing it became clear that the purpose of that film was to establish the "New 52" slate of films, where everyone hates each other; life is cheap; and everyone is a goddamn edgelord. I HATE the New 52 films, with very few exceptions.

Oh, you thought the New 52 films were edgelord before? Well here's Apokolips War to out-edgelord the edgiest Edgelords that ever edgelorded. Have you ever wanted to see about 1/3 of the characters in the DC universe eaten alive while you got to watch? How about more getting torn in half or shot into bloody chunks? Maybe you're a particularly sick bastard who wanted to see superheroes get dismembered, tortured, and then disintegrated in molten lava? How about a character literally being burned to death? Well HAVE I GOT A FILM FOR YOU! 

Oh, but it gets better. There's a notorious DC comic series from a few years back called "Future's End" particularly noteworthy for a hilariously awful section where it reveals the DC Superheroes converted into robotic spider-people for no apparent reason, in particular Batgirl being mounted to the Batsignal and Frankenstein having Black Canary's still-alive face sewn to his chest. This comic is notoriously hated.

This movie homages that portion of Future's End. Yes, including the robot spider people.

This movie is cruel, disgusting, and try-hard to the extreme. All it knows how to do is kill people in increasingly sick ways. It's also the 1st of these DC animated films where I feel like you actually had to watch the previous films to make sense of some of the stuff it just brings up.

And yet...and yet...there is some good here. When characters aren't murdering each other for kicks, the banter is generally great. Constantine, as usual, is hilarious. Zatanna (as little as she is in the film this time) no longer looks like an NFL linebacker. It's nice to see so many characters running around from the other films, such as the Suicide Squad. I also appreciate that the movie ends with the end of this entire stupid universe, and it openly acknowledges that.

I would only recommend this film if you like Constantine, as he's in top form as ever, and perhaps if you actually like these New 52 films and wanted to see how it all ended. It's not a good film.