Author Topic: Fire Emblem: Fates Changes Controversial Support Conversation in Western Regions  (Read 13138 times)

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Offline Pandareus

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Actually the criticism has already happened, has been judged to be valid, and has led to a positive change.


Things went right, here.

Offline Battlechili

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Quote from: Pandareus
Actually the criticism has already happened, has been judged to be valid, and has led to a positive change.[/size]Things went right, here.

That's not quite what I meant. I mean the game is already completed. Such criticism should be used in the production of later works, not the changing of current pre-existing works that have already been released in my personal opinion. And I feel that the criticism should be taken and judged by the original creators, not by a localization company such as NoA. In this case, the criticism is being taken and used by the wrong people. If one considers such content to be a fault, the original creators should be the one to change it in response to it since its criticism of their own game.


Once again though, these are just my personal views on the subject.

Offline Battlechili

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Oops, I made the same mistake as another user. Sorry about this. Admittedly I first came to this site because this is where I first heard this news, and so I thought I'd add some personal input. I'm not really used to this site's formatting quite just yet. :(
Actually the criticism has already happened, has been judged to be valid, and has led to a positive change.


Things went right, here.
That's not quite what I meant. I mean the game is already completed. Such criticism should be used in the production of later works, not the changing of current pre-existing works that have already been released in my personal opinion. And I feel that the criticism should be taken and judged by the original creators, not by a localization company such as NoA. In this case, the criticism is being taken and used by the wrong people. If one considers such content to be a fault, the original creators should be the one to change it in response to it since its criticism of their own game.

Once again though, these are just my personal views on the subject. I do not mean to sound like my view is end all or anything.

Offline Pandareus

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The "game is already completed" so it shouldn't be touched argument seems arbitrary, in the current context: it was released in one region, drew criticism, and Nintendo had time to respond to that criticism within the time they gave themselves to localize the game. There's no real reason a company shouldn't use that localization window of opportunity to take in criticism and respond accordingly.


As for the "only the creators can change their work" argument, the people involved in making this chapter of this franchise, worked for Nintendo. It's Nintendo's intellectual property, Nintendo paid their salaries, and Nintendo commissioned the work. If Nintendo later sees content they oppose and choose to change it, it's their call.

Offline Luigi Dude

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That's not quite what I meant. I mean the game is already completed. Such criticism should be used in the production of later works, not the changing of current pre-existing works that have already been released in my personal opinion. And I feel that the criticism should be taken and judged by the original creators, not by a localization company such as NoA. In this case, the criticism is being taken and used by the wrong people. If one considers such content to be a fault, the original creators should be the one to change it in response to it since its criticism of their own game.


The thing is NOA is meant to be Nintendo's American branch that markets Nintendo's products in America.  In America, things that can be considered close to Rape are taken a lot more serious then in Japan which has a pretty disgusting history on how they handle it and is still the worst 1st world nation when it comes to how they treat Rape as well.  When it comes to womens rights issues, Japan is basically a 3rd world nation in how they treat women. 

So yeah, NOA is doing their job in this case by changing something that the Japanese should be ashamed of, into something more marketable in the West.
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Offline Luigi Dude

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Talkback really needs an edit button.

That's not quite what I meant. I mean the game is already completed. Such criticism should be used in the production of later works, not the changing of current pre-existing works that have already been released in my personal opinion. And I feel that the criticism should be taken and judged by the original creators, not by a localization company such as NoA. In this case, the criticism is being taken and used by the wrong people. If one considers such content to be a fault, the original creators should be the one to change it in response to it since its criticism of their own game.
[/quote]

The thing is NOA is meant to be Nintendo's American branch that markets Nintendo's products in America.  In America, things that can be considered close to Rape are taken a lot more serious then in Japan which has a pretty disgusting history on how they handle it and is still the worst 1st world nation when it comes to how they treat Rape as well.  When it comes to womens rights issues, Japan is basically a 3rd world nation in how they treat women.

So yeah, NOA is doing their job in this case by changing something that the Japanese should be ashamed of, into something more marketable in the West.
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Offline TOPHATANT123

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While I prefer localisations that are closer to the original intent of the creators, I totally get why it would get changed considering it's being released in a different market with different cultural acceptances and NOA has an image to maintain yada yada yada. Though the thing is if you don't like the changes made to make it more marketable in the west, there's nothing stopping you from playing the Japanese version or playing the fan translation.

Offline Mythtendo

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I'm glad they are making the change. Gay conversion therapy is cruel, inhumane, and conveys the false message that being gay is somehow wrong or a choice. Nintendo can and should fully support gay rights, which some of their games do.

Offline Enner

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The action of spiking a friend's or ally's drink, regardless of intentions, was never going to fly as a plot point. I hope everyone can understand that, but... well, internet. Speaking out of complete ignorance of the societal fabric of a foreign country, maybe Japan never had enough public messes that Intelligent Systems and company was comfortable that they could play this particular action as some rom-com goof or slapstick. For better or for worse (?!), that is not the case elsewhere no matter how hard it is desired otherwise.

On the bright side, this is something that you can write around and keep the character intact. My quick thought is to try to replace it with counseling (hello, psychology degree!).

As for the larger conversation on the philosophies of localization, I'm finding myself being more open to less-literal adaptations. Perhaps I'm being too complacent in thinking that something as radical as Robotech won't happen again.

Maybe I'm just getting too old or have been too sheltered, but spiking someone else's drink just never stroke me as an "okay" thing to do.

Offline S-U-P-E-R

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Maybe I'm just getting too old or have been too sheltered, but spiking someone else's drink just never stroke me as an "okay" thing to do.

B-b-b-b-but, artistic vision!!!

Offline broodwars

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As for the larger conversation on the philosophies of localization, I'm finding myself being more open to less-literal adaptations. Perhaps I'm being too complacent in thinking that something as radical as Robotech won't happen again.

Hey now...Robotech's one of the greatest strokes of creative adaptation ever made!  ;)

(Yes, I know what you meant by that, but I do really like Robotech in its American form)
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Offline Ian Sane

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I never knew about this until now but upon hearing about it I'm kind of shocked that a character essentially date raping someone else made it past enough decision-makers to get released in Japan as is.  No one thought "this is kind of creepy" during development and said something?  Well someone in NOA did and why wouldn't they?  Even from a strictly business perspective there was just no way you could release something like that in North America.  People would freak and then Nintendo is the pro-rape anti-gay company?  Is that worth not "censoring" something? 

This is something you expect would upset people, including members of your target audience.  You would expect it to make people uncomfortable.  Sometimes art does that on purpose to make a point.  But are the devs trying to make a statement here and make us think about something or are they just going for what seems like a dumb gag in poor taste?  I don't think they're trying to make us uncomfortable to make a statement, I think they're doing it out of ignorance.  I could think of it as censorship if the whole intention was to shock and appall everyone and NOA was taking the bite out of the message.  But I think it's just "hee hee, tricking a lesbian into falling for a man is funny!" from someone with an immature sense of humour who is oblivious to how much it would bother people.

It's not like this is the gay conversion game where the dev's whole goal was to spread this specific message in favour of it and NOA is destroying the whole point of the game by censoring it.  No, this is one small element likely intended as an attempt at humour, otherwise unrelated to the core themes of the game, that's is getting the axe because it's offensive.

Offline Enner

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As for the larger conversation on the philosophies of localization, I'm finding myself being more open to less-literal adaptations. Perhaps I'm being too complacent in thinking that something as radical as Robotech won't happen again.

Hey now...Robotech's one of the greatest strokes of creative adaptation ever made!  ;)

(Yes, I know what you meant by that, but I do really like Robotech in its American form)

To be honest, Robotech is great and did an important job in bringing those series to a wider audience. The late Carl Macek and company did what they had to bring those three anime series on to American television, and I am grateful for that. All things considered, I think the adaptions were largely faithful even with the heavy localization to have them all fit one continuity (Though, it has been long since I watched any of it). Thinking on it, most of my ire is on the legal wrangling that has resulted on the later Macross series never seeing an official USA release. Not saying people are missing out on classics, but it is still a shame.



Offline S-U-P-E-R

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It's too bad the artistic vision of Robotech was soiled by removing the episode with the gender-bending date rape drugs


Offline pokepal148

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How very upsetting. This is happening so frequently of late that I find it difficult to support Nintendo of America at times. This removal of content is particularly troubling because it is actively changing some form of character development such as that of Soleil.
Because we all know that having her drink spiked by a potential suitor is one of those truly irreplaceable life changing experiences for young women everywhere.
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Its also removing some content that might've been enjoyable for gay and bisexual fans of Fire Emblem, all for the sake of not being offensive or uncomfortable for some players.
I highly doubt anyone who is familiar with gay conversion therapy is going to be particularly thrilled about this one. Especially people who are in the LGBT community.
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Offline MonadoMkII

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So I've been reading some more takes on this whole thing, including some of Soleil's other supports, and it seems that people have misinterpreted the script when it comes to Soleil's sexuality; while she gets excited around "cute girls", flirts like crazy with them and likes their company enough to get a stat boost when fighting with them, she's not actually interested in a romantic relationship with them, which is supported by all of her options for S Supports/marriage being male.


With this known, I think it's important to ask how the situation in any way resembles gay conversion therapy. Soleil's not gay in the first place, and the intention of the powder was an attempt to help her not faint around women, not to make her stop liking them entirely. I also noticed that the article still says it's Soleil who proposes to the male Kamui when it's the other way around; are you going to fix that?

Offline Triforce Hermit

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The entire scene itself was horrible written. They are rewording it. Nintendo is using the "gay conversion therapy" as the word of the day here, but the scene needed to be rewritten period.
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Offline Soren

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So I've been reading some more takes on this whole thing, including some of Soleil's other supports, and it seems that people have misinterpreted the script when it comes to Soleil's sexuality; while she gets excited around "cute girls", flirts like crazy with them and likes their company enough to get a stat boost when fighting with them, she's not actually interested in a romantic relationship with them, which is supported by all of her options for S Supports/marriage being male.

With this known, I think it's important to ask how the situation in any way resembles gay conversion therapy. Soleil's not gay in the first place, and the intention of the powder was an attempt to help her not faint around women, not to make her stop liking them entirely. I also noticed that the article still says it's Soleil who proposes to the male Kamui when it's the other way around; are you going to fix that?

Not really. Soleil's S rank conversation with Corrin pretty much makes an explicit confirmation of Soleil's bisexuality: (bold emphasis mine)

Quote
Kamui: Uh. Since the day you saw me as a girl? You couldn’t possibly mean… that you fell in love with the female me!?
Soleil: Yep!
Kamui: Oh God…
Soleil: But it’s okay. Right now, I also love the male Kamui. (...)

Even then, you only say Soleil is only interested in romantic relationships, which isn't the same as sexual relationships. Maybe Soleil only wants to get married to male characters, but that doesn't nullify any potential sexual attraction with female characters.

The further this mess seems to go the more it proves most writers aren't able to properly handle LGBT characters with any grace or subtlety. The writing team at IS have also had troubles with most character support conversations from A to S now that characters can get married. Most just fumble around until hey surprise, now we're popping the question and we're married.
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Offline ejamer

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I've read all the lines now.


The writing is bad. The whole "I slipped you some magic power when you weren't looking" idea is straight out bad. Things being changed makes sense and isn't offensive at all.


However, I find the discussion going on around this whole event really distasteful. People are throwing around "date rape" and "gay conversion" in ways that aren't fully deserved. (I see the parallels, but what happens in game here is not equivalent. And that's significant.) In both cases, I strongly believe that using this language trivializing some truly horrible and disgusting real life events.


I also find it really distasteful how many people talk about sexuality as a switch instead of a spectrum. Is she a lesbian? Is she straight?  Shame there aren't any other options... (?!) As long as she's making her own choices, with a clear and sober mind, and not hurting anyone in the process then I don't see why it's such a big deal who she does or doesn't like.


But hey: what do I know. Honestly, not much.
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Offline GloDem

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My whole problem with this argument is it automatically loses when you drag nintendo into it they have the worst track record in history, if this were an Atlas decision or NIS or any other company ( besides Konami and Capcom )I could give it the benefit of the doubt but we all know damn well Nintendo sensors the living s*** out of their games and has since the very beginning of their history here in America. If any other company was involved with this I could give them the benefit of the doubt but not Nintendo I never trust Nintendo two nearly three decades of this has made sure of it.

Offline Rules

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So, how is this story drugging or conversion? Why is it such a big deal?


I guess I'm just tired of how censors always read too much into a scene.  It's never that a producer wants to tell an interesting story, its that they're promoting some deviant behavior and thus the scene must be taken out.  People just can't take it for what it is, an interesting an fun story. Personally, I think this story is not an issue of conversion but rather teaches people to be open on the labels people attach themselves with.


The character is interested in another character and gives her a potion to make her see him as a man as a means to try to interact with her. (I am unclear if his 'original' intention was to woo her based on the spoilers I've seen).

In any case, I admit giving somebody something without their knowledge is a bit unethical and a bit fishy. 


 However, in this context I don't really see it as terrible thing, and I wouldn't call it an act of drugging or conversion really.


First, it happens in everyday life all the time. How many times have you bought your wife flowers or your girlfriend chocolate in order to influence their mood (okay a bit less shady).  Is it just because its a 'magical potion'...some chemical reaction that we make such a big deal over it?  That can't seriously be the whole issue here. Let's be serious, this is a lukewarm hallucinogen at best. It doesn't affect her emotional state. It doesn't inhibit her ability to make a rational decision. It ONLY affects her physical perception of people. All the realizations that happen to the character as a result of the potion are hers alone. At no time during her affected state does the male character take advantage of her so what's the big freaking deal. Chocolate produces chemical reactions as an aphrodisiac.  Should we  ban every boy from giving girls chocolate on Valentine's because it affects girls' emotional states and could therefore be considering drugging... or conversion(converting a girl to a singular love-interest over another)? About the only thing wrong with this scene is the context that people happen to take it too far and so loosely associate it serious drugs and the stories they hear from them.  What I say to these people is this, get a grip on reality and learn to take a story for what it is. Perhaps we should outright ban Disney and Pixar.  Poison apples...magic that makes a girl's mother turn into a bear so they can bond?  Really, I don't see a difference.  The only thing I can point out is who its happening too.

Oh, but the person is getting a potion that makes them see girls as boys. Seriously! Is this really a bad case of  sexual conversion?  If you argued to me that this person's only goal in life was to make a lesbian women straight and ditch her later I might agree with you. People never look at motives before they determine the intention behind a story.  In any case, if your really trying to woo someone that's inaccessible I think its reasonable to assume that some might take some slightly unorthodox measures in hopes of creating an opportunity.  How is this any different than if the person themselves decided to dress as a transvestite? Definitely not drugging potentially more creepy. If you like someone, your going to do weird thinks to get their attention.  And that's all this potion really is. It buys the character a few more seconds in front of the girl so she can get the chance to know the real him. She still has to come to her own realizations and in no way did the potion directly affect her ability to reach those realizations. As long as there's no advantage taking of the person during their altered state and the act is completely confessed how we call this any more than an innocent attempt at creating an opportunity for someone he happened to like? 

 In any case, even if this character's goal was to woo her, its not as if his goal was to change her sexual orientation specifically.  He just ended up creating opportunities for himself that he might not have otherwise had. This person just happens to be a guy and she just happens to be labeled a Lesbian.  Congratulations, you have a 'Lesbian' girl(I hate labels) who happens to be interested in one guy in the entire universe.  I really don't think we can call this conversion of her entire sexual preference because now she happens to like one guy in the universe.  Throw out the labels, and its really a case of Person B realized he/she/it is more into A than he/she/it thought. 


Here's a strange variation of the same exact story, an ugly toad an a princess meet. The ugly toad starts to like her but can't say anything because he's a toad and he's ugly...so she'll never approach him (basically the same idea as strapping on a Lesbian label). He decides to trick into her drink a magical potion to turn her into a toad for a few days so that they can talk and in the end the princess realizes she likes the toad regardless if he's ugly. (Forgive such a ludicrous analogy.) But does this story sound as creepy.  Is this conversion?  No!  Now its about an innocent frog and a princess and we've completely removed the notion of labels on sexual orientation.  It is simply one person creating for themself an opportunity they may have otherwise not had.

The fact that she's Lesbian in this particular story has nothing to do with the literal meaning. In the end it boils down to the simple paradigm."

"Person A likes person B. Person B has no initial interest in Person A.  Person A tries to do something to create an opportunity for himself with Person B.  Person B either rejects A still or realizes that she really can like person B and starts paying more attention to B.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 03:07:42 AM by Rules »

Offline Rules

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I've read all the lines now.


The writing is bad. The whole "I slipped you some magic power when you weren't looking" idea is straight out bad. Things being changed makes sense and isn't offensive at all.


However, I find the discussion going on around this whole event really distasteful. People are throwing around "date rape" and "gay conversion" in ways that aren't fully deserved. (I see the parallels, but what happens in game here is not equivalent. And that's significant.) In both cases, I strongly believe that using this language trivializing some truly horrible and disgusting real life events.


I also find it really distasteful how many people talk about sexuality as a switch instead of a spectrum. Is she a lesbian? Is she straight?  Shame there aren't any other options... (?!) As long as she's making her own choices, with a clear and sober mind, and not hurting anyone in the process then I don't see why it's such a big deal who she does or doesn't like.


But hey: what do I know. Honestly, not much.

What I find sad is people just associate the concept of the magical potion as if its a direct allusion to date rape drug.  Its nothing more than  a lover trying to create an 'innocent' opportunity to woo her. In the end the drug didn't affect her personality so his attempt could have seriously backfired.  People are way to quick to draw conclusions and snap a simple concept as magic potion administered discreetly to the sinister notion of date rape. I wish people would take the time to see things as they really are and not see the worst in every little detail.

Offline Lucario

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I've read all the lines now.


The writing is bad. The whole "I slipped you some magic power when you weren't looking" idea is straight out bad. Things being changed makes sense and isn't offensive at all.


However, I find the discussion going on around this whole event really distasteful. People are throwing around "date rape" and "gay conversion" in ways that aren't fully deserved. (I see the parallels, but what happens in game here is not equivalent. And that's significant.) In both cases, I strongly believe that using this language trivializing some truly horrible and disgusting real life events.


I also find it really distasteful how many people talk about sexuality as a switch instead of a spectrum. Is she a lesbian? Is she straight?  Shame there aren't any other options... (?!) As long as she's making her own choices, with a clear and sober mind, and not hurting anyone in the process then I don't see why it's such a big deal who she does or doesn't like.


But hey: what do I know. Honestly, not much.
But hey that's just a theory...
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Offline paleknight1

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Some how doesn't surprise me due to damage controllers.

Offline pokepal148

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First, it happens in everyday life all the time. How many times have you bought your wife flowers or your girlfriend chocolate in order to influence their mood (okay a bit less shady).  Is it just because its a 'magical potion'...some chemical reaction that we make such a big deal over it? 
Well yeah, that's kinda how drugs work.

Quote
Let's be serious, this is a lukewarm hallucinogen at best

If you know of any lukewarm hallucinogens that can make me see everyone as a hot babe, hook me up.

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What I say to these people is this, get a grip on reality and learn to take a story for what it is.

I am taking it for what it is: It's a poorly written piece of crap.

Quote
Chocolate produces chemical reactions as an aphrodisiac.  Should we  ban every boy from giving girls chocolate on Valentine's because it affects girls' emotional states and could therefore be considering drugging... or conversion(converting a girl to a singular love-interest over another)?

Considering the person knows you are giving them chocolate and gives them consent then yes.

Quote
Congratulations, you have a 'Lesbian' girl(I hate labels) who happens to be interested in one guy in the entire universe.  I really don't think we can call this conversion of her entire sexual preference because now she happens to like one guy in the universe...

...Here's a strange variation of the same exact story, an ugly toad an a princess meet. The ugly toad starts to like her but can't say anything because he's a toad and he's ugly...so she'll never approach him (basically the same idea as strapping on a Lesbian label). He decides to trick into her drink a magical potion to turn her into a toad for a few days so that they can talk and in the end the princess realizes she likes the toad regardless if he's ugly. (Forgive such a ludicrous analogy.) But does this story sound as creepy.  Is this conversion?  No!  Now its about an innocent frog and a princess and we've completely removed the notion of labels on sexual orientation.  It is simply one person creating for themself an opportunity they may have otherwise not had.

The fact that she's Lesbian in this particular story has nothing to do with the literal meaning. In the end it boils down to the simple paradigm."

"Person A likes person B. Person B has no initial interest in Person A.  Person A tries to do something to create an opportunity for himself with Person B.  Person B either rejects A still or realizes that she really can like person B and starts paying more attention to B.
You do know that Soleli actually has your standard set of second generation marriages with male characters right? She isn't even the character who can enter a same sex relationship with a female Corrin. For someone who hates labels so much you sure seem eager to be the one doing the labeling.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 02:29:54 PM by pokepal148 »
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