Topic: Paper Mario for Wii U: Time for Evan_B to RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE

[NWR_insanolord]

I think he pushes for it more with Paper Mario because it has more potential from a conceptual standpoint to be its own unique thing. Sticker Star and especially Super Paper Mario were both really interesting, original ideas, regardless of how well executed they ended up being.

[Evan_B]

Super Paper Mario is essentially an action RPG where the characters have set damage output but increasing health.

[NWR_insanolord]

I was referring to the 2D-3D switching mechanic, which was a really, really cool idea that they really should have gotten more out of.

[Evan_B]

I agree. Instead, it was half-baked idea that amounted to "dodge big stuff or go around tall stuff"

[Ian Sane]

How many of you feel comfortable with standing up to your boss?  Miyamoto is their boss.  He says "make it like this" and they do it because they want to keep their job and stuff.  Be mad at Miyamoto for not understanding how RPGs work but I don't expect IS to put their foot down to a superior's request.

I realize that in the present day if there is an announcement about a new Miyamoto game I'm not excited.  These days it's usually some quirky tech demo with a control gimmick.  I feel the guy peaked during the N64 years.  He made Ocarina of Time and it was like the most ambitious game ever at the time and that was his peak.  I wonder if that's the game he really envisioned when he thought of the Zelda concept and once he achieved it he wasn't hungry anymore.  Frankly I think Nintendo peaked around the same time.  They've been very conservative in their game design since.  I don't see any enthusiasm from then in regards to pushing the envelope.  They're content with just trying some nifty novelties.  They really don't seem to give the slightest **** about what new technology can offer unless it relates to controllers.  I think Miyamoto's prominent role is a big reason for that.  The guy that moved them forward in the 80's and 90's now holds them back.

Of course it could just be that he's old or things have really changed now that he's an executive more than a game designer.  Who upended the tea tables when he was making Mario and Zelda?  I don't think there was anyone.  I believe he got a lot of freedom to do his own thing and it paid off in spades.  Now he's the meddling exec poking his finger in every project.

[Luigi Dude]

Frankly I think Nintendo peaked around the same time.  They've been very conservative in their game design since.  I don't see any enthusiasm from then in regards to pushing the envelope.  They're content with just trying some nifty novelties.  They really don't seem to give the slightest **** about what new technology can offer unless it relates to controllers.  I think Miyamoto's prominent role is a big reason for that.  The guy that moved them forward in the 80's and 90's now holds them back.

Did you even read what we're debating or just love to give your rehashed "Post N64 Nintendo doesn't make anything new" post in every topic?  The number one complaint about Sticker Star is Miyamoto made IS make something more ambitious then it needed to be.  The fans just want another Paper Mario RPG, while Miyamoto had IS make something that was completely different.

Seriously, how is the Paper Mario series an example of being conservative.  Hell the most popular game in the franchise is TTYD and that's the one that did the least to change from it's predecessor.  If anything, the fans wish Nintendo would be conservative with this series since another RPG like 64 and TTYD is exactly what they really want.

[Evan_B]

I would say that Sticker Star was different, but not necessarily better. Ambitious isn't the right word for it.

[NWR_insanolord]

It was trying to be more than just another Mario RPG. I'd say ambitious fits.

[pokepal148]

I really don't like the battle system in Mario and Luigi so Paper Mario is the series I prefer.

[Evan_B]

Oh, hey. You may remember this topic being about how I hate that Paper Mario has no personality anymore. But now that there's a new game being announced, maybe Intelligent Systems can figure their **** out and make a proper successor to The Thousand Year Door! You can discuss that here, or read up on the original discussion.

What do you want to see from a new Paper Mario game? I'd like them to take what was great about the first two games and make it better. I'd also like subtle paper references, like enhanced textures and silly transformations like TTYD had. I don't need constant reminders that Mario is made of paper, that wasn't what made the first two games good.

The status effects from Sticker Star (soggy, burned, crumpled, and pinned) could made a return, though.

[Adrock]

What do you want to see from a new Paper Mario game?

Sticker Star flat-out fucking sucked. I wish it was a person so I could punch it right in the face. I hate that game. I hate that it masquerades as a Paper Mario game. What do I want? An actual RPG like the good lord intended. I just took The Thousand Year Door out of storage. I'm going to start it soon. I really liked the original on N64, and I heard the sequel was even better. More of that. Please. All I want from a Paper Mario game is for it to play like the game that made me a fan of the series to begin with. This is not difficult.

[NWR_insanolord]

I'd love a true successor to Thousand Year Door, but I'd also take a follow-up to Super Paper Mario that isn't four times as long as its content justifies like the first one was.

[Luigi Dude]

Just make it an RPG again and keep Miyamoto as far from development as possible.  Hell maybe that's why we haven't heard about the game even though it's been in development for a few year.  IS wasn't being quite to surprise the fans, they were being quite so Miyamoto wouldn't know about it.

Oh ****, now because the news is leaked Miyamoto is probably going to be waiting at IS studio on Monday morning angry as **** and ready to flip some tables.  The game will now delayed until 2017 to transform it from Thousand Year 64 Doors 2 to Super Sticker Star Amiibo Festival.

[Evan_B]

I would give Nintendo a large sum of money for an Amiibo Paper Mario, but I really don't want that gimmick shoehorned into the next game.

I would think they have heard the backlash against Sticker Star (although the presentation and actual environment design were really good), and since the Wii U has a crippling lack of RPGs, this might be the chance to take all the ideas from when Paper Mario for 3DS was still an RPG and fully realize them. I also think on a console like Wii U there's great potential for visuals, especially after seeing gorgeous games like Wooly World and Kirby and the Rainbow Curse.

[Ian Sane]

Much of what made the original Paper Mario stand out was that it was effectively a replacement for Super Mario RPG.  Once Mario & Luigi became a series and we now had two Mario RPG series I can see why IS would want to try something different with Super Paper Mario to differentiate it somehow.  TTYD is a great and all but it's really just a refinement of the original game's gameplay.  After that, where do you go?  I find when Nintendo starts running off the rails with a series it's usually after a "perfect" entry.  They introduced the concept in the first game, perfected it in the second, so now what?  When Nintendo hits that "now what?" point you start seeing games revolving around a singular gameplay feature or a major shift in the gameplay.  Uh, let's try making it a platformer!  Uh, let's try something with stickers!  It's a good thing that they feel that each game needs to stand out in a unique way but sometimes it results in a series losing the plot.

But Paper Mario with Stickers is not a terrible approach if they still make it an RPG.  "What if Miyamoto didn't **** the game up?" is a unintentionally hilarious design plan.  But how could they do that?  Surely Miyamoto would find out and I wonder if anyone at Nintendo has pointed out to him that his meddling ruined the game or that he admits it himself.  Odds are they would present their sticker idea and he would say "we already did that" and that would be the end of it.

[Luigi Dude]

I would think they have heard the backlash against Sticker Star (although the presentation and actual environment design were really good), and since the Wii U has a crippling lack of RPGs, this might be the chance to take all the ideas from when Paper Mario for 3DS was still an RPG and fully realize them. I also think on a console like Wii U there's great potential for visuals, especially after seeing gorgeous games like Wooly World and Kirby and the Rainbow Curse.

Yeah that's why I'm feeling pretty good this game will end up being a traditional Paper Mario again.  People give Nintendo crap for not doing what the fans want but generally they do address the biggest complaint people had with one game in their sequels.  The biggest complaint about Super Paper Mario was the insane amount of text and story the game would dump every 5-second, followed by the ridicules backtracking and tedious activates you had to do.  Sticker Star to it's credit did address those issues, of course it went too far since it nearly eliminated the story all together.

Still not a lot of people complained about Super not being an RPG since it was assumed to be a one time spinoff and the next game would be a return to form like it almost was.  So yeah I'd imagine Nintendo got the message this time since the biggest complaint about Sticker Star was by far the lack of being an actual Paper Mario RPG which is the number one things the fans are united about wanting.

[michaelbaysuperfan616]

I don't think Miyomoto cares about what franchise Mario is in, he created Mario so I think he probably feels like he should have some creative say in any game that features his baby. I know I would push for that if I were him. It's the whole George Lucas vs. the people all over again, what right does the creator have verses the audience who receives his work.

[Evan_B]

The fact that Mario has been inserted into an RPG format invalidates Miyamoto's input- he has no idea what is good for that specific genre and he has proven that with Sticker Star.

Role playing games strive on diversity, which is why TTYD is one of my favorite titles. It features classic Mario enemies and allies in a "forgotten corner" of the mushroom kingdom, one that is more vivid and interesting than the entirety of the same generic bullshit we have dealt with from the Mario franchise over the past ten years. That game also had the balls to introduce new races and villains to the fray which is what I hope they will go for with the next installment.

[Ian Sane]

Role playing games strive on diversity, which is why TTYD is one of my favorite titles. It features classic Mario enemies and allies in a "forgotten corner" of the mushroom kingdom, one that is more vivid and interesting than the entirety of the same generic bullshit we have dealt with from the Mario franchise over the past ten years. That game also had the balls to introduce new races and villains to the fray which is what I hope they will go for with the next installment.

This is a big reason why I loved Super Mario RPG so much.  At that point the Mario universe had never been expanded beyond the basic platformers.  Sidescrolling platformers at the time normally were short on story and characters so the Mario games didn't seem any weaker at this than other games.  There were Mario comics and the cartoon show but they didn't feel authentic like how story in a game will.  So to me Mario RPG's Mushroom Kingdom and surrounding world is the "real" one because it's the first one I was introduced to.

In the generations to follow the expectations of storytelling in videogames rose but as the proper Mario games introduced more story elements they revealed really generic and boring plots and characters.  In the NES and SNES days much of the details of the Mario world were left to imagination.  Then when they were first properly plotted out in a Mario RPG the results were much more interesting than what the main Mario series would later offer.  Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi feel like a much more "legitimate" Mario world than the proper Mario games because they seem to actually have some effort invested in making them interesting.  "Real" Mario games pretty much just have obstacle courses.

[Evan_B]

I just want decent action commands back. And stylish moves. Oh god, I miss them so much. I mean, the animations in Sticker Star were stylish enough (the normal jump combo was quite satisfying), but discovering those extra stylish inputs and recharging your special moves was so much more of a reward.

[MagicCow64]

Sorry, wrong thread!

[Evan_B]

Judging by the cryptic words of the NWR Cat Rumor Mill, Intelligent Systems has managed to, once again, ruin Paper Mario.

I am so livid right now I don't even know what to say.

[Ian Sane]

Since Paper Mario started as an RPG one would assume that the fanbase likes it as such.  If you're making a major change to the series that betrays the very elements that defined it in the first place then you're probably trying for another audience.

So I'm curious as to what Super Paper Mario's sales were like compared to the first two Paper Marios.  Paper Mario came out at the end of the N64's life so it probably didn't sell that great and TTYD was on the Gamecube.  Just by being on the Wii Super Paper Mario probably smoked both in sales.  Nintendo probably observed that and came to the conclusion that there is a larger audience for Paper Mario not being an RPG.

[Evan_B]

If you're judging the sales of a mediocre game on an extremely wide-selling system as the direction in which you should take the franchise, you're a moron.

But hey, this IS Nintendo, am I right?

What I don't understand is, how do you look at a game library full of 2D platformers and Party Games, with next to no RPGs, and say, "you know what? We want to satisfy the people who bought this system. Let's make something completely different!"

I get that most Wii U owners are probably 3DS owners, but what the hell, man? Are they really THIS out-of-touch with their fanbase? I mean, games like Smash Bros., or even SMTxFE have me thinking otherwise, but this ruination of my favorite franchise... it's just obscene, at this point.

[michaelbaysuperfan616]

I didn't like Thousand Year door, the first was playable but not memorable. I loved Super Paper Mario but felt it needed less talking and more platforming. I think that RPG's have been largely absent as a main console genre from Nintendo consoles for so long maybe they, Nintendo, just don't think they should waste time catering to an audience that has left them for Sony.