Topic: Fire Emblem Fates Will Feature Same-Sex Marriages

[Soren]

There is no "social commentary" until someone makes it one.

And in this case, Nintendo made it social commentary when they released their statement after the Miiquality petition. They could have strictly said it was a programming issue and it was too late to change the current game but they were taking all comments into consideration for future games, and it probably wouldn't have been an issue. Instead we got this:

Nintendo never intended to make any form of social commentary with the launch of Tomodachi Life. The relationship options in the game represent a playful alternate world rather than a real-life simulation. We hope that all of our fans will see that 'Tomodachi Life' was intended to be a whimsical and quirky game, and that we were absolutely not trying to provide social commentary.

[Phil]

Good news. For some reason, maybe it's because the game is so far away for us in the West, I'm not yet hyped about Fates yet.

[pokepal148]

Actually, this crap reminds me of the bullshit with how Team Fortress 2 is supposedly "misogynistic and close-minded" because women aren't playable.

And, again, why was NINTENDO singled out when a gazillion games don't offer this. 

Because Nintendo is seen as a conservative company and that automatically makes them a target to the media.

And, again, why was NINTENDO singled out when a gazillion games don't offer this.  Can you have same-sex marriage in Harvest Moon?

Because it triggered someone and they complained. And the media latched onto it like a fly to ****.

What is this, a #gamergate discussion on twitter?

[lolmonade]

Actually, this crap reminds me of the bullshit with how Team Fortress 2 is supposedly "misogynistic and close-minded" because women aren't playable.

Misogyny is one of those words thrown around the internet waaay too liberally.  That said, there's what, 9 choosable classes in the game?  I think "Why aren't there any female characters?" is a fair enough question.  I mean, Left 4 dead has them, why not TF2?

[Mop it up]

Now watch it end up be some sort of "joke" path.

[Triforce Hermit]

And in this case, Nintendo made it social commentary when they released their statement after the Miiquality petition. They could have strictly said it was a programming issue and it was too late to change the current game but they were taking all comments into consideration for future games, and it probably wouldn't have been an issue. Instead we got this:

Nintendo never intended to make any form of social commentary with the launch of Tomodachi Life. The relationship options in the game represent a playful alternate world rather than a real-life simulation. We hope that all of our fans will see that 'Tomodachi Life' was intended to be a whimsical and quirky game, and that we were absolutely not trying to provide social commentary.

Where in that quote are they referring to social issues or commenting on them? Nintendo tiptoed around the issue entirely. Social media continued to freak out (shocker) and blew this over proportion (double shocker).
Could they have worded it differently? Sure. But there is nothing wrong with this statement to provoke the shitstorm it did.

Misogyny is one of those words thrown around the internet waaay too liberally.  That said, there's what, 9 choosable classes in the game?  I think "Why aren't there any female characters?" is a fair enough question.  I mean, Left 4 dead has them, why not TF2?

Because TF2 takes place in a time where men were expected to work and fight and that is the universe it is in (the 1900s, not sure when off the top of my head). L4D takes place in the 2000s and isn't about hired mercenaries, but instead survivors against the apocalypse. And because TF2 is a PC game, there are plenty of female character mods (over-sexualized and not) that anyone who doesn't enjoy playing as a male can easily fix themselves and even make themselves.

But that requires a brain and it is easier to go complain to Valve about a 7 year old game that they have only 3 people updating. To add females at this point would require hitbox restructuring and fixing cosmetics to work with the new models. Both are incredibly unlikely and are pointless when a game that typically peaked at at 1,000,000 players now can peak 100,000 occasionally.

[Soren]

Where in that quote are they referring to social issues or commenting on them? Nintendo tiptoed around the issue entirely. Social media continued to freak out (shocker) and blew this over proportion (double shocker).
Could they have worded it differently? Sure. But there is nothing wrong with this statement to provoke the shitstorm it did.

You mean other than mention social commentary twice in a single paragraph, while insisting they weren't making any type of social commentary? I fear you're just looking at the social media backlash over feminist and queer issues and unilaterally applying it here. Like I've already mentioned, there was plenty of legit criticism over how Nintendo handled the #Miiquality petition. You cannot expect a game based heavily on relationships and marriage to only offer heteronormative options and have that not be a form of social commentary, specially after news of the sorta-maybe-not-really gay marriage bug on the Japanese version of the game.

[pokepal148]

Team Fortress is well known for how seriously it takes its plot and setting...

[ShyGuy]

Is this the sequel talkback thread to this one? http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/37361/nintendo-comments-on-lack-of-same-sex-relationships-in-tomodachi-life-localization#talkback

[Soren]

Yes! The sequel where everyone got amnesia and it's not as good as the original...

[Triforce Hermit]

You mean other than mention social commentary twice in a single paragraph, while insisting they weren't making any type of social commentary? I fear you're just looking at the social media backlash over feminist and queer issues and unilaterally applying it here. Like I've already mentioned, there was plenty of legit criticism over how Nintendo handled the #Miiquality petition. You cannot expect a game based heavily on relationships and marriage to only offer heteronormative options and have that not be a form of social commentary, specially after news of the sorta-maybe-not-really gay marriage bug on the Japanese version of the game.

Yes, Nintendo could have handled it better. I haven't denied that. Like they could have ignored it completely like most companies ignore social media petitions. And yes you can expect games with relationship and marriage options to feature only hetero options. Ffs, there are hundreds of games with no gay marriage options. The Fire Emblem series as a whole is a blazing good example aside from this game. The game was singled out because of the bug and that is it. They didn't put a bug back in the game and everyone thought that = Nintendo hates gays. If that line of thought is what is going on here, I'm done.

Team Fortress is well known for how seriously it takes its plot and setting...

Oh God. You are one of THOSE people. Just because you don't care about the plot or the universe doesn't mean that everything should go your way. Hold, I have a quote somewhere on this......

"Valve won't do it because it's unneccessary catering to a small fraction of the fanbase of TF2. I'm sure a lot of Transexuals play TF2, and a lot of Gay or Lesbian people play TF2, but that doesn't mean that they need to be appealed to just because some of them want a character for them. And the reason Spy does all of this is because he is a parody of spies such as James Bond (The suit) and the reason has a knife and revolver is because some people can have a suspension of disbelief to a certain point. Ditto with the buildings and teleporters. Plus, pretty much every high tech machine in this game was invented by someone using Australium, which is a plot device that lets someone gain the intelligence to build advanced machines. Alternate Universe doesn't mean "Anything can happen because it's different so do things I want"".         

 

[Shaymin]

Yes! The sequel where everyone got amnesia and it's not as good as the original...

It's just like my Japanese animes!

[lolmonade]

Misogyny is one of those words thrown around the internet waaay too liberally.  That said, there's what, 9 choosable classes in the game?  I think "Why aren't there any female characters?" is a fair enough question.  I mean, Left 4 dead has them, why not TF2?

Because TF2 takes place in a time where men were expected to work and fight and that is the universe it is in (the 1900s, not sure when off the top of my head). L4D takes place in the 2000s and isn't about hired mercenaries, but instead survivors against the apocalypse. And because TF2 is a PC game, there are plenty of female character mods (over-sexualized and not) that anyone who doesn't enjoy playing as a male can easily fix themselves and even make themselves.

But that requires a brain and it is easier to go complain to Valve about a 7 year old game that they have only 3 people updating. To add females at this point would require hitbox restructuring and fixing cosmetics to work with the new models. Both are incredibly unlikely and are pointless when a game that typically peaked at at 1,000,000 players now can peak 100,000 occasionally.

As someone who has thrown several hours into TF2, I have never been aware of any story whatsoever until your comment.  After reading wikipedia, it seems like Valve released some semblance of a story through comics?  Frankly, that's about as weak as Bungie requiring you to read Grimore cards to get any semblance of story in Destiny, and weak rationale as to why they didn't include female playable characters.
 
Do I get the business case as to why they wouldn't bother updating it now?  Yes.  Does that mean a weak "story" not even included in the game proper should drive a decision like that?  In my opinion, no.

[lolmonade]

Since I can't modify my comment, I'll have to amend what I wrote here:
 
Do I get the business case as to why they wouldn't bother updating it now?  Yes.  Does that mean a weak "story" not even included in the game proper should drive a decision like while being made?  In my opinion, no.

[Ian Sane]

There are times where there have been reports where corporate execs have mandated unequal representation in a game for what they perceive as sales reasons.  I have heard stories about this, particularly with female protagonists.  "Make sure it's a white male lead because that's what sells!"

But I think sometimes it's just the developers not thinking beyond their own personal lives.  You might see a game and say "how come all the characters are white?" and then you see the dev team and it's all white guys from white neighbourhoods with white friends.  They're not intentionally trying to be exclusive, they're just oblivious.  A good suggestion for writing is to write what you know.  So when you're making your fictional world you're going to take inspiration from your personal life.  I think a big reason why male protagonists are so common is that most of the game development industry is male and they're making characters they relate to.  As a man I couldn't write a female character from personal experience for obvious reasons.  I also don't know what it's like to be a minority or to be gay.  When creating such a character I would have to talk to people that do know what that's like... or with a deadline looming I can go with stereotypes or recycle depictions I've seen in other works or just not bother and make the main character someone like me.  I suppose laziness and obliviousness aren't good things either but they're still better than outright malice.

[Enner]

As a man I couldn't write a female character from personal experience for obvious reasons.  I also don't know what it's like to be a minority or to be gay.  When creating such a character I would have to talk to people that do know what that's like... or with a deadline looming I can go with stereotypes or recycle depictions I've seen in other works or just not bother and make the main character someone like me.  I suppose laziness and obliviousness aren't good things either but they're still better than outright malice.

I'm gonna risk it and say that laziness, being oblivious, and ignorance can be worse than outright malice due to how insidious, ingrained, and normalized things can become.

As for creating experiences that a person doesn't know first-hand, I believe that rigorous research and/or consultation can do just fine if the creator is serious. Or maybe they could just hire a person with first-hand experience.

[Dasmos]

So I guess this isn't breaking any laws anymore!

[Dasmos]

I should have put "breaking any laws" in quotation marks, because it was a pretty ridiculous argument.

[Khushrenada]

You know what else is ridiculous?

Dasmos.

[ThePerm]

I've ridiculed him a few times, but then he ridiculed me back worse. He won. That cat with the top hat, monocle and pipe wins every time.

[nickmitch]

Because TF2 takes place in a time where men were expected to work and fight and that is the universe it is in (the 1900s, not sure when off the top of my head). L4D takes place in the 2000s and isn't about hired mercenaries, but instead survivors against the apocalypse. And because TF2 is a PC game, there are plenty of female character mods (over-sexualized and not) that anyone who doesn't enjoy playing as a male can easily fix themselves and even make themselves.

But that requires a brain and it is easier to go complain to Valve about a 7 year old game that they have only 3 people updating. To add females at this point would require hitbox restructuring and fixing cosmetics to work with the new models. Both are incredibly unlikely and are pointless when a game that typically peaked at at 1,000,000 players now can peak 100,000 occasionally.

I'm confused as to why it's so easy for a player to add female characters, but so hard for the developer.

There are times where there have been reports where corporate execs have mandated unequal representation in a game for what they perceive as sales reasons.  I have heard stories about this, particularly with female protagonists.  "Make sure it's a white male lead because that's what sells!"

To be fair, this is exists in the movie industry.  We can see it from the leaked Sony emails.  So, it's really not a stretch to think it exists in another big budget entertainment industry.

But I think sometimes it's just the developers not thinking beyond their own personal lives.  You might see a game and say "how come all the characters are white?" and then you see the dev team and it's all white guys from white neighbourhoods with white friends.  They're not intentionally trying to be exclusive, they're just oblivious.  A good suggestion for writing is to write what you know.  So when you're making your fictional world you're going to take inspiration from your personal life.  I think a big reason why male protagonists are so common is that most of the game development industry is male and they're making characters they relate to.  As a man I couldn't write a female character from personal experience for obvious reasons.  I also don't know what it's like to be a minority or to be gay.  When creating such a character I would have to talk to people that do know what that's like... or with a deadline looming I can go with stereotypes or recycle depictions I've seen in other works or just not bother and make the main character someone like me.  I suppose laziness and obliviousness aren't good things either but they're still better than outright malice.

The only way the whole "write what you know" thing works is if you don't know any women, gays, or minorities.  You can easily make a "diverse" character by just finding someone you know in real life and asking them if they would like to be the basis for a videogame character.  Like, if you wanted a black guy in your game, I would think just modeling one after a black guy you know in real life would be easy enough.  It's keeps you from relying on stereotypes at least.

My apologies for poking at hot-button topics.[/quote]

[ThePerm]

There is also the reverse problem. A bunch of white guys get together and make a game with black guys in it, and it winds up stereotypical and then the game comes off more screwed up and ethnocentric. Actually, anyone play Dead Rising 2? I thought the way they portrayed that guy at the beginning of the game was all racist and fucked up.

[Oedo]

I'm having a hard time following the "poor Nintendo/game devs" thing. Yeah, every now and then stuff gets blown out of proportion, but at the same time, this did need to happen at some point and I'm happy they did it. At worst, this adds nothing to your experience. To a good number of people (gay or otherwise), I'm sure it's a very welcome addition and might change the game for them in a considerable way. Nobody loses, a lot of people win. Those are typically the moves you want to make, needless to say. Completely useless features get put into video games all the time, so I don't think it's asking too much to include something that a lot of people want and will find useful (when it makes sense).


You shouldn't have things like this for the sake of having them. You shouldn't shoehorn in any group of people (gay people, men, women, whatever) if it doesn't make sense for the game or if it's completely out of place. But if relationship building over which the user has control is a central theme in your game, yeah, options for gay relationships probably need to be in your game in some capacity. I'm glad Nintendo is learning the right lessons when it comes to things like this (assuming that they handle it appropriately in the game, which I'm pretty confident they will).

[Triforce Hermit]

Because TF2 takes place in a time where men were expected to work and fight and that is the universe it is in (the 1900s, not sure when off the top of my head). L4D takes place in the 2000s and isn't about hired mercenaries, but instead survivors against the apocalypse. And because TF2 is a PC game, there are plenty of female character mods (over-sexualized and not) that anyone who doesn't enjoy playing as a male can easily fix themselves and even make themselves.

But that requires a brain and it is easier to go complain to Valve about a 7 year old game that they have only 3 people updating. To add females at this point would require hitbox restructuring and fixing cosmetics to work with the new models. Both are incredibly unlikely and are pointless when a game that typically peaked at at 1,000,000 players now can peak 100,000 occasionally.

I'm confused as to why it's so easy for a player to add female characters, but so hard for the developer.

Because hitboxes need to be fixed and so do a couple hundred cosmetics. With a mod, if it conflicts then you just deal with it. For many people, the mods are their cosmetics so they don't care.

Earlier in the TF2 lifetime Valve said they considered it, but now they it's so late, they just won't do it (at least that is what I've heard from the TF2 forums).

[pokepal148]

Is this the sequel talkback thread to this one? http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/37361/nintendo-comments-on-lack-of-same-sex-relationships-in-tomodachi-life-localization#talkback

Post edited by moderator because it broke several NWR Forum Rules.