Topic: Forgetting the "older" generation of Gamers?

[TheoNeumann]

hi i would like to hear your views on this


Do you think that Nintendo have forgotten about the older generation [a.k.a people who were brought up on NES or SNES, 15-20 yrs old] and have gone kinda .... soft?

I just think that to get a challenge in a gamecube game recently it involves Resident Evil or other scary games
Im not saying that those type of games are bad they are good ED was great if not a little easy

Take Zelda for example, the age group i mentioned "older" will remember the classic Zelda on the SNES. The wind waker on NCG, for as beautifully created as it is... was way too easy and i have to admit to be dissapointed with it.  And im really afriad that mario kart will be going down the same route, SMB 2 is way easier then the first one

I am aware of the 3+ rating and 11+ rating, but all the classic titles which come back and all the nintendo new stuff for the gamecube appears to be 3+ and will be too easy

i hope to god you make sense of all that jibberish but im getting quite angry by the general easyness ever increasing for NGB

£40.00 wasted continously

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I hear ya, brother.  Straightforward difficulty and challenge seems to be dying out.  Wind Waker could've felt more challenging if they made some simple adjustments to the damage levels, among other things.

But remember, older gamers have lived quite long enough to improve their gaming skills over time.  So the opposite perspective is the older crowd has gotten much better at playing games while at the same time Nintendo hasn't adjusted its challenge levels, instead of Nintendo seemingly making things easier.

However, the "older market" hasn't been Nintendo's target market.  "E" (for Everyone) is.

Just some thoughts.

[Bartman3010]

Of course games have been getting easier, but Nintendo is afraid of scaring off players with a hard level of difficulty. Thats why they were afraid that Mario Sunshine would scare off people (Apparently it has...)

Its kinda sad too, since I thought Mario could've been even harder. I want more games to be based on reflex and timing.

[Artimus]

What do you think of Sunshine's difficulty? Surely that wasn't too easy! I agree Zelda was, but I think it was more a programming overlook than intentional. They just didn't balance the game well. I almost wish they'd delayed it til Christmas.

Metroid Prime wasn't easy, and you can try hard mode. Pikmin wasn't overly easy either. Eternal Darkness is a great challenge on the higher difficulty modes. Super Monkey Ball/2 is as cute as they come, but you can't tell me it is easy.

The only easy game is really Zelda, and that's hardly a crime. Maybe you're just too good for modern video games? And honestly, when was the last time you played a HARD Square game? Their games aren't hard at all if you level up enough, but no one complains...

As for Mario Kart...it's Mario Kart. Why would that be easier?!

[TheoNeumann]

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Just some thoughts

great shout m8

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And honestly, when was the last time you played a HARD Square game?

hmmmm, i guess it must be Secret of Mana on the SNES,[ i was around 7] yeah im getting a clearer picture now

in response to other peoples questions:
Super Mario Sunshine was NOT hard getting all the shine sprites from the actual levels
but im very happy to say the rest of the shine sprites where you need blue coins to get, you really need to clear every single level out of blue coins and that is extremely time consuming and hard

I  think Super Mario Kart DD will be easy Artimus i cant give you any evidence its just my gut feeling
it may be easier becuase a lot of the mario franchises have been easy for NGC we will have to see

my final point [for this turn!] is a contributor to easyness on a couple of big NGC titles, ED and Wind waker

I suppose you noticed in ED any objects that are important that u need to pick up flash? it would be much better just to find them without the flash, i know the rooms are dark but still a big giveaway
And finally on wind waker on the bosses there is a little yellow arrow where you need to hit etc
i hate being told how to do bosses like that

3+ is not a good label becuase when i was 3 i was playing with fire engines and tractors and stuff!

[Uglydot]

I am also bored with the ease of games.  I rarely bother finishing and easy game.  SMS made me so angry with how hard it was, but I kept comming back for more because it was a challenge.  I remember some of the best games I ever played made me thow my controller accross the room.  When I was 14 I remember breaking a DC controller and a PSX controller in one week.  But I won't forget fighting the weapons in FF7 or playing MDK2

[CHEN]

try Ikaruga, it will make you pee your pants.

[Round Eye]

Ikaruga Rocks!

I am so bad though, this is me playing:

Alright here we go

*ship explodes*

Lucky shot, this time I am goi...

*ship explodes*

Alright then so you wanna piece

*ship explodes*

Thats it now I am mad

*ship explodes*

Oh yah

*ship explodes*

10

9

8

7

6

5

3

2

1

              GAME OVER

We will meet again someday soon.


Awesome game though.  I am not worthy.

[Stu]

Erm... I have to disagree.  You are saying that Nintendo isn't bringing out any games on it's Gamecube system that offer a challange, yes?

You've beaten hard mode on Ikaruga, and approached 30 million points?

You've beaten Master Mode on Super Monkey Ball 1 and 2?

You've got all the Ace medals on Rogue Leader?

120 Shines on Mario Sunshine?

All gold medals on the Tiger Woods 2003 scenarios?

Beaten Expert mode on Wave Race: Blue Storm?

Hard Mode on Timeplsitters 2?  (Siberia, Atom Smasher and Robot Factory)

I'll take a guess that you haven't, you knoiw why?  Because it would be too hard.

If you've done all that, you're a better man than me.  Don't buy the Wind Waker and expect a challenge; just enjoy the story, and let the game flow.  Ikaruga is for challenge, Pikmin is for a relaxing quality experiance.

I think your claims of 'getting tired of the general easyness' is self inflicted; there are plenty of games out there, that you will come nowhere near to completing without a lot of skill and a large amount of time invested in them, you just need to play them.  To be honest, with the list of games above, there is no case at all, for Nintendo games being too easy... as I said, just don't base everything around the Wind Waker.

[Ninja X]

WW and ED could use a difficulty booster.  But still, many games that are difficult to clear do exist on the GCN.  BY clear, I mean beat the game 100%.  Just pick up Ikaruga.  Yeah...now what?

[aoi tsuki]

Ikaruga's a bad example though. Shmups (shoot 'em ups) in general require fast reflexes, pattern memorization, and the stamina to fight relentless waves of enemies. This makes them hard for most people. Ikaruga's no different. Frankly, the main thing keep Ikaruga from attaining pure "old school" status is the gameplay.

[mouse_clicker]

Difficulty is not a matter of age- games aren't easier today because gamers are younger (gamers AREN'T younger), games are easier today because most people buynig games are casual gamers who don't have the skills that are built up over years and years of playong videogames. The last thing any developer wants to do is alienate it's biggest buyers, and most casual gamers won't take the time of day to plau harder games, and that translates into worse sales. Also, skill doesn't come with age- who here didn't have one game they completely owned when they were little? Skill comes with experience, which is what casual gamers don't have.

I still think games should be harder, though- occasionally you get a few ridiculously hard games, like Super Monkey Ball and Ikaruga, but on the whole games are a bit too easy. I definitely agree developers should beef up the difficulty in their games to get casual gamers into the mindset of playing hard games, or at least include a difficulty setting. Usually it's just one little thing that makes the game so much easier. For instance, in Wind Waker enemies didn't do enough damage, making it very hard to get to the brink of death. It wasn't the puzzles, or the amount of enemies, or their AI, it was just that the consequence for fouling up wasn't bad at all. And in Eternal Darkness it wasn't the level design or the amount of damage, it was the ability to not only heal when ever you needed to, but to protect yourself against even serious enemies. If these few things would change, it would make a world of difference.

BTW, this is my 1000th post on the new forum!!! w00t!!

[Cap]

i think that games as a whole are getting easier, not just nintendos. although i dont doubt that zelda could, and should have been more difficult, its only one game. the biggest reason that games are getting easier is save points. die, do it again. older games are usually shorter and would force you to play through in one sitting, worrying every step of the way how many lives you had. it just isnt like that in many games anymore where a 5-10 hour game is considered short, and it just isnt feasible for most people to play through a 10 hour game in one sitting. add developers trying to get their games to the biggest audience possible(the casual gamer who probably doesnt want to play an overly difficult game like ikaruga), and i dont see much changing anytime soon.

[Grey Ninja]

I don't think that Nintendo's newer games are too easy.  And as a 21 year old (22 next month) who grew up with Nintendo, I have to say that they haven't forgotten about us.  They are still producing the same quality of game that made us fall in love with Nintendo in the first place.  Wind Waker was the best game I have ever played, and it is very much a Zelda game.  It's no more difficult or easy than A Link to the Past, but the characters and the plot recieved a HUGE increase in quality.  It was the perfect game IMO.

Just go play some early Nintendo games like Super Mario Bros.  You might find that the game is surprisingly easy to you nowdays.  Then go play some Mario Sunshine.  The level of difficulty is about the same.

[telaris]

I have something to say, excellent post by the way. Most all game companies and developers, not just Nintendo, are "dumbing down" their games' challenge for one reason.

Accessability. The gaming industry is huge these days compared to the earlier 80's and 90's. One of the factors is because people who werent weaned on Nintendo as a child can now pick up a game and become good at it. and if they like the game and they get to know the game company another loyal customer is born.

[almondblight]

I thought Link to the Past was pretty easy...compared to...LoZ2:the Adventures of Link.  Man, that game killed me as a kid, I don´t think I was even able to get to the third dungeon, it was so damn hard.  I really loved the game though, and it kept me coming back, because you had this great eeling whenever you found a piece of equipment, or learned a new technique, or spell, or beat a new dungeon, or gained a new level.  Man, I would kill for a new Zelda like that, but from what I gather I would be the only one to enjoy it.

[Ninja X]

Quote
Originally posted by: aoi tsuki
Ikaruga's a bad example though. Shmups (shoot 'em ups) in general require fast reflexes, pattern memorization, and the stamina to fight relentless waves of enemies. This makes them hard for most people. Ikaruga's no different. Frankly, the main thing keep Ikaruga from attaining pure "old school" status is the gameplay.

Ikaruga still exists in the GCN library as a difficult game.  If he wants one, let him take Ikaruga.  It's no different from any other difficult game out there.  Yes, its genre is one known for its difficulty, but Treasure still had the option of making it easier for the general audience.  Yet, it did not...

[BlkPaladin]

For the games that make it easy they should have a difficulty booster. (Games were their are HP points to deal with.)

For games though like Mario where HP isn't delt with its harder. (Unless you make it easier for mario to die. =Though the Secrets were a good addition.)

[TheoNeumann]

thanks everyone for contributing to this debate, although i dont think we have really got anywhere

everyone keeps mentioning ikaruga, yes it does sound hard,[ iv not been on it ] but just becuase that game isnt easy it doesnt make up for the huge amount that are, you cant use ikaruga to defend all the easy games NGC has produced.
Referring  back to the point that Stu said with his long list of tasks which are very hard,what do u notice about the  those? Thats right, the outstanding majority contain "hard mode" or master mode" etc. Which takes away the subject quite frankly. Why should I pay.... £40, to get a game
which only gets hard with a change of difficulty level?? I expect the raw challenge from the start, i wont to go into a new game excited without even casting an eye on the diff level.
Using wind waker, where is the diff level for that? That game was built up for months and months and months, and as the months flew by i was getting excited, only to realise the game was a total peice of pi$$! I completed it within 6 weeks or summat. Games without diff levels should be made harder and WW was is no exception, there is no excuse why that game should have been amde to be as easy at it was. And finishing on WW, the last boss with the great Ganon, that was just a farce. [If you havent done it yet im sorry id stop reading]
The last third of the boss where you have to reflect the light onto him and hit him as much as possible was very hard and i thought was a brilliant ending, i couildnt do it for ages, [or so i thought] only then to realise by accident when i presses A to do a defensive attack, he got hit on the head with one shot and that was it, so lame! How is that a boss to end the game? it isnt! However if they [nintendo] would have realised to take off that stupid yellow arrow above his head i wouldnt have even got past that boss yet which i think would have been cool! And the ending was poor as well, i just wanted to walk around, sail wherever and do little things like nintendo gallery etc. But it just started all over again in different clothes.
I would like to finish by saying im having a dig at zelda becuase it was a beautiful experience but it was too easy, if there is a worse example of easyness this year[ i feasr MarioKDD] i will do the same to that as well

[Drz]

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Using wind waker, where is the diff level for that? That game was built up for months and months and months, and as the months flew by i was getting excited, only to realise the game was a total peice of pi$$!l

You've lost all your credibility in my eyes by saying that.  
 

[Ninja X]

I do not think he had any credibility when all the easy games he mentioned were Zelda and Eternal Darkness...

Listening, games are made to be easier to access, and that is why developers put in a difficulty mode.  If you want difficult games that are natural, look back at Nintendo or Super Nintendo.  Games are not going to change anytime soon.  In fact, this situation might get "worse" in your opinion.

[TheoNeumann]

wait a minute

somwhow iv struck a never with some guys in here

dunno why. if u read what i said earlier then i said zelda was a beautifully created game but a bit too easy
so when i called it a peice of pi$$ im doing the exact same thing without the beginnig part of the phrase

ok more easy games if thats what you want

Mario Party 4 [even on Expert mode]
Luigi Mansion
Pikmin
SMB 1
SMSunshine

and more easy games to come so stop picking fights and just admit im right

[mouse_clicker]

Teo, you have got to be the most arrogant son of a @#$% I've ever seen on this forum- saying Wind Waker was beautfilly crafted but too easy is a genuine opinion- saying it was a piece of pi$$ is being a jackass. And then claiming you're right on something that's subjective just goes to show you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. The debate here would be a lot more productive if you would kindly never enter it again.

[Artimus]

Super Monkey Ball was NOT easy. If you beat it on expert mode, you are SERIOUSLY too good at games.

Mario Sunshine was great, challenging, but not impossible.

Sounds to me like the problem isn't the games, but you. You'd want impossible games that a nomral person can't enjoy. I suggest you get Tetris or somehting.

[Grey Ninja]

He said it took him 6 weeks to beat Wind Waker.  Something tells me he's not a gaming god.  He should go play some Mario Sunshine or Metroid Prime or something, and quit whining about Wind Waker.  Wind Waker was about the same level of difficulty as all the Zeldas before it.  I seriously don't know what the problem is.