Topic: Can Nintendo survive not being #1

[Ian Sane]

I don't think that extra features like DVD playback sold the PS2 on their own, but I do think that it's the sort of thing that makes someone choose a PS2 over a Gamecube.  If you're just an average gamer who doesn't know a good game from a bad one and one console can play DVDs and the other can't which one are you going to pick?  The DVD player is a key feature that the Gamecube doesn't have and therefore in the eyes of the average consumer the PS2 and XBox look superior.  Little things like that are what ultimately hurt Nintendo.  The Gamecube doesn't have DVD suppport, and the it only has one online title, and until recently it didn't have demo discs.  Those are all things the competition has that Nintendo doesn't and that's the sort of thing that can affect a person's console buying decision.  In the next generation Nintendo has to match Sony in EVERYTHING.  There shouldn't be any missing feature that makes people choose the competition instead.  Unless Nintendo can beat Sony's price by like $200 or something (ie: if Sony goes nuts with features) they have to match or beat everything.

[egman]

Ian Sane-I can see what saying about how that hurt the Cube a little, but I think for at least this generation those extras weren't really key. Sony got a small boost from releasing the PS2 at the time DVD was going mainstream. When DVD players started almost 50 dollars, I doubt it pushed the system. I also believe the Xbox saw no benefit from DVD playback. What pushed these systems were appealing, "everyone must own it" games like GTA and Halo.

Nintendo has a very high quality line, but it has lost it's appeal--this is the main problem. I think the N64 gave a Nintendo a false since security, hence why they have put all their eggs into EAD's basket. I think the reliance on EAD has been unfair to EAD and the other internal teams. Unreasonable expectactions have been set for EAD, so when technically flawless software like SMS has come out, it has been ripped to shredds because it was not mind blowing in the way that Mario 64 was. At the same time, it seems that teams like Hal and Intelligent Systems  are being squandered. I have no idea what the hell Hal has been up to after SSB:M and Intelligent System seems to be wasting it's talent on the GBA.  Advance Wars is the best game for the GBA and is diffenately on the list as one of the best games this gen, but does the GBA really need that support from IS? Pokemon is what is really selling GBA's.

On top of that, I learned recently that IS was mainly behind Super Metroid, arguable one of the top five games on the SNES. Now I have this question--why in the hell were they not given Metroid Prime in the first place? Retro did an amazing job, but it seems to me Nintendo is missing an oppurtunity with some of the resources it has right under its noise. Teams like IS are perfect counter points to EAD, but Nintendo did not capatilize on that this gen, which really hurt it.  

[Hostile Creation]

I honestly believe the only reason that the PS2 is in the lead is that it was released before the other two systems.  The DVD player almost certainly didn't sell it.  True, many Gamecube owners might be multiplatform users, but most of the PS2 owners are casual gamers.  I remember watching some show, and this girl was talking about her house, and she had a PS2.  She said she didn't even play it, it was just for when the guys came over.  That's who owns a PS2.  That's the majority.

I''ve met many people that have all three systems.  Approximately twenty.  About 2 or 3 of those preferred Xbox, five to seven preferred PS2, and around 10 liked Gamecube the most.  These people were at gaming message boards, though, so they're not casual gamers (I'd like to note that they were not Gamecube forums, they were general gaming boards).  I think that Nintendo could win back the next generation, or perhaps the one following that, but they have to strive for it.  I agree with egman's post (though not 100%; maybe 70-80%), but I don't think that the multiplatform users necessarily prefer the other systems to the Gamecube.

[evilnate]

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Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
I honestly believe the only reason that the PS2 is in the lead is that it was released before the other two systems.  The DVD player almost certainly didn't sell it.  

I agree that the year head start had alot to do with it, but the DVD player helped.  Actually, I think a bigger contributor to the PS2's success is it's backwards compatibility.  There were so many PS1 ones and games out there that the PS2 was the natural step up for most gamers.  Add to that the fact that many of the old accessories work on the new system as well.  Even though the PS2 system itself is more expensive than the cube, it's really not if you've got a PS1.  Once you've bought a Gamecube, a memory card and a game to play, it's more expensive than a PS2 if you've got a PS1 at home.  You could buy a PS2, and wait to buy a game, while playing your old ones.

[Ymeegod]

Actually there was a DVD player with the GC.  It's called the Q and it was released in Japan and that didn't stop people from chosing the PS2.

Reason why, it has the games that alot of people WANT.  FFX, GT, ect.  

What's killing Nintendo?  The failrure to capture certain markets--example sports/RPGs/ect.

Nintendo's like there isn't a fanbase so why bother but you can't gain fans from nothing.  You need exclusive games and you need them at launch--not 2-3 years later like FFCC.

Still shocked that nintendo couldn't get a develope a pokemon clone in time for the GC release.    

[BlkPaladin]

I don't agree with Nintendo unable to capture the sports market, Sports really has never done well on any of Nintendo's consoles. That was one of the reasons there was so few only sports game makers out there during the SNES/Genesis days. (I think EA was the only one.)

[thecubedcanuck]

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She said she didn't even play it, it was just for when the guys came over. That's who owns a PS2. That's the majority.

Bullsh!t
You have no facts at all to back that up, ZERO, sweet frick all. 20 million PS2 owners all in the wrong LMAO. When will it sink in that maybe, just maybe, people like the games the PS2 has to offer better?
Maybe they like the better selection of games?

But to say that the majority of PS2 owners are bumbling morons who bought it simply because the commercials had flashing lights, is just plain stupid. Simply wishful thinking.

Some people just dont like nintendo games, even a lot of former nintendo nuts are starting to drift away from what Nintendo has to offer, myself included.

Can Nintendo win me back? Yes, give me what I get from the other consoles, large selection of games in ALL genres, not just the ones they think are appropriate.

Nintendo needs to let the consumer make the choice as to what they feel is morally acceptable to them. Give the masses what they want and they will buy it. You can try all you want to buck the trend, but in the end, if it isnt what the consumers want, then it wont sell.

In the end I really dont care if Nintendo is 1st or 5th in the "console war", I will buy the system that has the most of what I like on it, regardless of who makes it, nintendo sony or betty crocker for all I care.
Hmmmm, consol and easy bake oven all in one............................................

[Ian Sane]

"I think the N64 gave a Nintendo a false since security, hence why they have put all their eggs into EAD's basket. I think the reliance on EAD has been unfair to EAD and the other internal teams."

That's actually a pretty good point.  Before the N64 Nintendo's first party lineup was a lot more varied.  Now even games that aren't EAD's have a very EAD feel to them.  It's like EAD's style is now Nintendo's style.  As a result not only does it put a lot of pressure on EAD but it turns off anyone who doesn't like that style.  Company's like HAL, Camelot and Hudson would probably make better games if they made something different that doesn't seem like something EAD would make.  This would result in less Mario spinoff games but I personally would have no problem with that if it meant a more variety of titles and a greater variety of styles in these games so that everything isn't the EAD style super-cheery Mario routine.  Camelot in particular is being completely wasted making Mario sports games when they could be working on RPGs, something that Nintendo doesn't have many off.

"I don't agree with Nintendo unable to capture the sports market, Sports really has never done well on any of Nintendo's consoles."

That's because Nintendo's never had much for sports games so thus the sports game fans (which are a huge market these days) don't buy Nintendo consoles.  I think that Nintendo should buy or form a development team and turn them into Nintendo Sports.  They don't have to have a huge lineup right away, the big four (football, baseball, hockey, basketball) would suffice.  They don't even necessarily have to release a new title every year as long as they stagger the releases so that football and baseball are released ever odd year and the other two are released every even year.  Sports titles are a big deal and Nintendo would look a lot more enticing to casual gamers if they had their own sports brand.

[Round Eye]

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Originally posted by: thecubedcanuck

Nintendo needs to let the consumer make the choice as to what they feel is morally acceptable to them. Give the masses what they want and they will buy it. You can try all you want to buck the trend, but in the end, if it isnt what the consumers want, then it wont sell.

In the end I really dont care if Nintendo is 1st or 5th in the "console war", I will buy the system that has the most of what I like on it, regardless of who makes it, nintendo sony or betty crocker for all I care.
Hmmmm, consol and easy bake oven all in one............................................

Give the masses what they want eh?  I guess you are right.  Nintendo should start making mediocre movie license games, maybe Mario should start shooting hookers, long ass over rated boring RPG games are the best.  I think you are on to something here cubed.

Yah, who would want to play crappy games like Metroid Prime,its lack of load times and creative graphics really blew goats ass.  Wind waker man I am not even going to go there.  Viewtifull Joe, that game seems to lack all fun.  RE4, no one is going to play that!  Why am I wasting my time with these titles!

Nintendo better drop all of those games quick.  Hopefully for the next consol, we can have some Minority Report 2, and some sweet Terminator 3 third person, CSI miami is going to be so hot.

I'm with you Cubed.  I will come over and bake some cookies with you, and we can play Re-Enter the Matrix.

[Hostile Creation]

Jesus Christ, cubed.  First of all, I was making a point, and that's an extreme case.  I was merely saying that most people that own PS2s are not really involved with them.  Sure, of course they like the games; they wouldn't buy the system if they didn't like them.  But they do not like the games as much as a fan likes the games, and Nintendo could easily win these people over by just letting their system out early.  I'm not saying their a bunch of drooling morons, but video games are certainly not their priority.  And no, cubed, you're very wrong and extremely naive if you think that most PS2 owners would buy a PS2 over a Gamecube for any reason other than an earlier release date.  It's a matter of I get it better quicker.  That's all.

My friend owns a PS2 for one reason: FFX.  He later bought Sly Cooper and Parappa the Rapper, but FFX is the only reason he bought it.  He also has a Gamecube because he's a big Star Fox and Sonic fan.  There's nothing wrong with owning a PS2, and I in no way meant to insinuate that PS2 owners are idiots or anything.

And screw facts.  If this were a political debate or something I actually cared about, I'd try to make a reasonable argument.  But these are video games, and I don't really care about statistics and all that crap.  I like playing them.  That's it.

[thecubedcanuck]

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And no, cubed, you're very wrong and extremely naive if you think that most PS2 owners would buy a PS2 over a Gamecube for any reason other than an earlier release date. It's a matter of I get it better quicker. That's all.

LMAO, thats why the PS2 Still outsells all other consoles 2 to 1
damn that early release date

[thecubedcanuck]

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Yah, who would want to play crappy games like Metroid Prime,its lack of load times and creative graphics really blew goats ass. Wind waker man I am not even going to go there. Viewtifull Joe, that game seems to lack all fun. RE4, no one is going to play that! Why am I wasting my time with these titles!

I am glad you like those games, but apparantly they arent for everyone as sales seems to point out.
I dont mind Prime at all, I love RE, I thought WW was boring as hell and have no interest in viewtiful joe.
Looking at sales however, and this topic is about becomming number 1 after all, Nintendo needs to make the change, because even though you like these games they dont sell as well as many others.

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Give the masses what they want eh? I guess you are right. Nintendo should start making mediocre movie license games, maybe Mario should start shooting hookers, long ass over rated boring RPG games are the best. I think you are on to something here cubed.

why not?
If thats what sells, then make it and sell it. You cant become numbver 1 without a product that is in demand. As good as Nintendo games may be to you all, if the majority of people who buy games dont feel the same way, then it doesnt really matter from a sale point.

To be number 1, you have to sell the most, to sell the most you have to provide the majority with the products THEY want.

[Ninja X]

Quote
Originally posted by: thecubedcanuck


why not?
If thats what sells, then make it and sell it. You cant become numbver 1 without a product that is in demand. As good as Nintendo games may be to you all, if the majority of people who buy games dont feel the same way, then it doesnt really matter from a sale point.

To be number 1, you have to sell the most, to sell the most you have to provide the majority with the products THEY want.

Sell-out.

If that's what it takes to be #1, I hope Nintendo never becomes #1.

[thecubedcanuck]

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Sell-out.

LMAO, how can I be a sell out when I never cared in the first place?

I dont care who makes the games. I would like GTA 3 if nintendo made it just as much as I like it now.
I dont even know who makes most of my third party games and dont care to know.

I have no loyalty at all to products I buy. Its my money, and I spend it as I see fit.

[Round Eye]

Well if that's what it takes to be number 1 cubed, then I hope Nintendo is never number 1.  And like I said early I don't think they have too, to be successfull.

Nintendo are making some steps in the right direction by going after some QUALITY third party support.  And they are not just buying it, they are building relationships which should pay off for them in the future.

And if crappy licensed games are what you are after, then more power to you.  As long as Sony continues to have success with that you should have lots of games to enjoy<--is that the right word? 'Suffer through' sounds more right.  

And if you survive the plunge off the bridge following all the masses Cubed, Nintendo will still be here to take you in.

Your God,
Round Eye

[Ian Sane]

"I am glad you like those games, but apparantly they arent for everyone as sales seems to point out.
I dont mind Prime at all, I love RE, I thought WW was boring as hell and have no interest in viewtiful joe.
Looking at sales however, and this topic is about becomming number 1 after all, Nintendo needs to make the change, because even though you like these games they dont sell as well as many others."

I don't think sales indicate that people don't want to buy these games per say, just that they don't KNOW if they want to buy them.  A big problem comes from marketing.  Nintendo just doesn't make people interested in these great titles.  They tend to release these great titles in a vacuum and expect people to buy these titles without really knowing anything about them.  A few TV commericials with like ten seconds of game footage isn't enough to sell a game.  I imagine with some decent marketing these titles could be way bigger than they are.  You can't look at a title like Metroid Prime and assume that Xbox and PS2 gamers wouldn't want to play it given the chance.

"maybe Mario should start shooting hookers"

Why do people assume that whenever someone suggests that Nintendo should appeal more to the mainstream that they have to transform their existing franchises into gorey bloodbath titles?  This "Mario shooting hookers" thing is ridiculous yet I hear this comment made all the time.  Nintendo does NOT have to change Mario in order to be popular with casual gamers.  Nor do they have to change any of their other franchises.  They just need to have some mature titles that appeal to the mainstream as well.  Mario and Nintendo's answer to GTA can co-exist.  They don't need to make Mario a bloodbath.  Mario is a decent enough seller to remain unchanged.  They just can't have JUST Mario anymore.

One thing Nintendo could do though is avoid making kid-friendly titles more cutesy and kid-friendly for no reason.  Super Mario RPG, Yoshi's Island and Ocarina of Time were ALREADY kid-friendly titles so why when they made Paper Mario, Yoshi's Story and Wind Waker did they have to make them MORE cutesy and colourful?  If a series already appeals to kids don't make it more kid-friendly and risk turning off the older crowd.  If Nintendo already has the kid's market then they don't need to be more appealing to kids.

Nintendo does not have to sell-out in order to regain the number one spot.  They don't have to start making crappy games.  They just have to make some more games that have themes and characters that appeal more to the mainstream (and not make their existing franchises cuter with every generation).  There are good games that are rated 'M' and 'T' that have some violence and "cool" content that are also really fun to play.  The GTA series isn't just popular because it's full of violence, it's also considered by most critics to be a GOOD game.  

[thecubedcanuck]

Ian Sane

Very well said, this is exactly what I was trying to get accross.

[Round Eye]

I don't think that Nintendo has to make the GTA's themselves neccessarly, just support the developers that want to.

And I also agree that they could be a little less cutsey, and that would appeal to the mass market more.  But, the core element of each of their games is solid gameplay and they should never change that.

Nintendo Uber Alus.

[Termin8Anakin]

Who here said that GTA3/VC was a bad game? I didn't. I'm just saying that it's popular for all the wrong reasons. IF the kids who buy it for the blood, gang wars and mass killings find some decent gameplay in there, well good for them. I play it every now and then at my friend's place, but it's not too interesting to me, plus the load times are a killer. I agree partly about Nintendo making their franchises just a little too kiddy, but then they weren't trying to do that in the first place. Yoshi Story was the way it was cause that's how Yoshi is. Paper Mario was a 'sequel' of sorts to MArio RPG without having to make a full blown rpg. And Wind Waker? Kiddy? I find that Wind Waker has more life to it than any other game I've played, even those with voice acting. I went back to playing OoT after WW, and it was static, lifeless, stiff, and, to say the least, boring. Even the more tender moments like Saria's goodbye to Link at the start as boring. Wind Waker is great. Kiddy? You must be joking. The nostalgic, OoT elements in the game just made me cry. Who didn't when they went under the sea and found Hyrule in all it's glory? I'm sorry that you take the stance of the general public.
And I/we all know that there a great M and T rated games, and I too wish that Nintendo made some games with more themes than they do now, but WW is a perfect step in the right direction, so I have no complaints other than that.

[Ninja X]

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Originally posted by: thecubedcanuck

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Sell-out.

LMAO, how can I be a sell out when I never cared in the first place?

I dont care who makes the games. I would like GTA 3 if nintendo made it just as much as I like it now.
I dont even know who makes most of my third party games and dont care to know.

I have no loyalty at all to products I buy. Its my money, and I spend it as I see fit.

Hmm...and I do not recall calling you the sell-out.  If Nintendo ever did what you suggested in what I quoted in the earlier post, they would be sell-outs.  Sorry...it must have been implied that I called you a sell-out.

Nintendo will never cater to just what the audience wants.  Yes, it is wiser, but it would destroy their reputation of delivering the titles they want to deliver.  If they catered to just what audiences wanted, they would be selling-out.  They always had a big reputation of delivering games they want to make, not ones they are forced to make.  Nintendo is doing fine enough on its own without catering specifically to the whim of the market.
 

[Plugabugz]

Nintendo aren't kiddy. Nintendo are daring. Nintendo are renowned for always giving something different.
A darker blend of this ever-changing-difference-ness (note I said 'darker', not more gothic or anything), plus some more eye-catching advertising, plus various console nit-bits, and things can easily improve.

[Hostile Creation]

Ian Sane, I agree with you on a few points.   Nintendo could introduce some more mature games, and they are, actually.  Geist is one example, but they're opening the flow for any third parties that want to develop games for them.  Killer 7, the Resident Evils, Metal Gear.  I don't agree that they're getting more "kiddy".  It appears that way, superficially.  But when I play those games, they're wonderful.  I'm not into RPGs, but what I saw of Paper Mario was cool (corny but cool), Yoshi Story was fun but too short, and for me, Wind Waker was about as boring as jumping from an airplane with a nuclear device duct taped to me.  Not near as dangerous, but yeah, it was fun.

You can deny it if you want, but the early release date was the reason PS2 sold so much.  Obviously not the sole reason, of course.  The first Playstation was immensely popular, and they have a ton of ads.  Those helped a great deal.  But people want the best stuff as soon as they can get it, and Playstation came out first, so they got it.  And it's still considered to be as good as the other two systems, so they don't necessarily need to buy another one.  I honestly believe that those owners do not necessarily prefer PS2 games.  Sure, to them they're as good as a Gamecube game would be (though perhaps there may be some Nintendo fans hidden in those masses), but I think that they could like Gamecube if they tried it.  Cubed, you can laugh your @ss off at me, the naive little idiot, and tell me how wrong I am, but that doesn't necessarily prove me wrong.  I respect your opinion, though, despite what you say, and even if I don't want to.

[Ninja X]

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Originally posted by: Termin8Anakin
I went back to playing OoT after WW, and it was static, lifeless, stiff, and, to say the least, boring. Even the more tender moments like Saria's goodbye to Link at the start as boring.

I did the same thing...and I found OoT to be two times better than The Wind Waker...

[Hostile Creation]

Exactly.  Nintendo outdid themselves with Wind Waker.  I tried playing OoT after WW, but it was so slow and boring.  And that's a wonderful game.

[Michael8983]

I feel the same way. I just couldn't go back to Oot after Wind Waker.
Wind Waker was so smooth and fluid that Oot is unbearably clunky and awkward in comparison.
The characters in Wind Waker are alive with personality while just about everyone in Oot is like a zombie. Maybe it's not fair to criticize Oot like that since it could only do what the hardware would allow (which, compared to what's possible now, isn't much) but, the thing is, I can still enjoy Nintendo's other technologically out-of-date games. I can go back and play the 2D Zelda games on the NES and SNES and still love them. But I just don't seem capable of enjoying Oot anymore now that I've played Wind Waker.