Topic: IT'S MAHVEL BAYBEE!! [OT] for the Marvel Cinematic Universe (Movies & TV)

[ThePerm]

Infinity War had lots of meaningless action trying to cover up for an underdeveloped plot and complete lack of interesting characterization.

There were 18 films prior that developed the plot and the characterization. Did you watch all those?

Maybe you missed something in the serialization?

[BranDonk Kong]

Infinity War is a pre-season finale for an incredibly well-established season. You take it as an action packed movie that lacks character development as a standalone (wrong), or you take it as the culmination of the 18 prior films (right). It's not meant to stand on its own.

[Spak-Spang]

I have my tickets for tonight at 11pm.  It is going to be a long night for me.

[nickmitch]

Infinity War is a pre-season finale for an incredibly well-established season. You take it as an action packed movie that lacks character development as a standalone (wrong), or you take it as the culmination of the 18 prior films (right). It's not meant to stand on its own.

I remember reviews from when IW came out and there were a couple of reviews that said there was no characterization in the movie, and that was everyone's rebuttal.  It's the correct response also.

Like, there's ten years of characterization.  You don't need one movie to rehash all the characters for you.

I know some people feel like you shouldn't have to watch so many movies to be able to follow one movie, but this is like the one time that's the case where there isn't a number in the title.

[ThePerm]

It's basically a 3 season TV show that cost 4 billion all together. Kevin Feige is the best showrunner around.

[BlackNMild2k1]

It's basically a 3 season TV show that cost 4 billion all together. Kevin Feige is the best showrunner around.

Well, 1 season of a TV show is around 23 episodes.... I believe Endgame is the 23rd movie.
this is the season finale. It just took us a decade+ to get there.

[Spak-Spang]

Still better than Game of Thrones.

[ejamer]

Infinity War is a pre-season finale for an incredibly well-established season. You take it as an action packed movie that lacks character development as a standalone (wrong), or you take it as the culmination of the 18 prior films (right). It's not meant to stand on its own.

I remember reviews from when IW came out and there were a couple of reviews that said there was no characterization in the movie, and that was everyone's rebuttal.  It's the correct response also.

Like, there's ten years of characterization.  You don't need one movie to rehash all the characters for you.

I know some people feel like you shouldn't have to watch so many movies to be able to follow one movie, but this is like the one time that's the case where there isn't a number in the title.

I get that argument, but it doesn't save the movie from being lame.

Let me put it a different way: the only character that needed to be established or developed was Thanos, and they botched it. His motivation is terrible; a misguided desire to save others from overpopulation by wiping out half of all life in the universe? TERRIBLE, and seemingly out of character from what we've seen in other movies. The rest of the three (plus) hour movie could be a superhero montage shot if they do an appropriate job handling the villain... failing there make the whole thing cheap and meaningless filler.

If it was 90 minutes of cheap filler, featuring your favorite character, awesome.
If it were 2 hours of cheap filler then it's probably overstaying it's welcome... but I'm sure fans will be happy.
Over 3 hours? F*** that; waste of my time!

I strongly believe the reason this full series of Marvel films was successful is because of the characterization they've provided. The films that do a good job handling the characters tend to be the most popular while those which are weaker tend to be less interesting or popular.

To give the Avengers movies a carte blanche simply because other movies came out first just isn't how I roll. That said, maybe the pay-off is all in Endgame and I have to view it as a 6-hour epic... With that kind of run-time it will need a pretty significant pay-off, but maybe that comes to be. I'm not holding my breath though.

[BranDonk Kong]

98% on RT.

[ejamer]

98% on RT.

I wish that RT provided a bit more data you could use to assess their ratings. You know, things like actual average scores and standard deviation.

Take this RT "fresh" review snippet for example:

It's jamming a decade of movies, 22 films in all, and balling them up into a densely packed three-hour movie and hurling it right at your face. Some will welcome the projectile and others will recoil in horror.

Original Score: 3/5

Hmm... Doesn't exactly sound compelling. Clearly this isn't the common sentiment, but there are a bunch of other "fresh" but unimpressive reviews included there.

I get that RT ratings are an overall snapshot designed to abstract out as much information as possible, but it's a pretty broad stroke that really just measures how many people hated a movie instead of how good something actually is.


Point of RT reference: Rating for Infinity War is 85%, which means 15% of the general list of 427 movie critics disliked the film.  If you reduce that list to the 53 "Top Critics" from RT, you find that 14 of them disliked the film, nearly doubling the percentage of poor reviews (and that's including interesting results like considering a 2/5 star review to be positive).

I'm not saying there is no value to RT ratings, but when you start looking closer they are (at best) a limited tool.

[Stratos]

You gotta take their ratings with a grain of salt. I think of them as the movie equivalent to VG Chartz where sometimes they are grained in fact, while others are closer to wild speculation. The disparity between user and critic reviews as well as how people will attempt to manipulate scores for their own agendas (both users and companies) makes it hard to take RT seriously anymore.

[Spak-Spang]

Marvel stuck the landing.  It was an amazing journey.  I actually think the beginning and middle are the best parts of the movie.  The ending just didn't have the excitement of Infinity War.  But it was a great ride.  The movie has many, many great throwback moments that made me laugh and smile, and that is what made the movie great.

[Stratos]

PSA ON SPOILERS!

Since the movie is airing please remember to be mum on the spoilers! There is a whole separate thread for those.

[Adrock]

Let me put it a different way: the only character that needed to be established or developed was Thanos, and they botched it. His motivation is terrible; a misguided desire to save others from overpopulation by wiping out half of all life in the universe? TERRIBLE, and seemingly out of character from what we've seen in other movies.

I’m conflicted. Thanos’ plan doesn’t make sense because of math. If you halved the current population of Earth, for example, it’d only take us back to the population in the 1970s so at best, Thanos “saves” about a generation of people then we’re right back where we started. Thanos’ motivation is not mathematically sound. This is funny because he literally said, “It’s a simple calculus.” Yes, it is, and he’s wrong. Killing half the universe doesn’t solve what he views as the problem. However, Thanos doesn’t have to be right; he just has to believe what he’s doing is right (which he does) even if everyone tells him he’s wrong. He’s misguided, but that’s also what makes him a villain even if he’s the protagonist. That said, I don’t think it’s out of character because Infinity War was the first time we really got much of his character. Before that, he had two cameos and a minor role in Guardians of the Galaxy where he was basically angry/sometimes bored, space-throne guy.

At the same time, every scene Thanos shares with Gamora is problematic narratively (i.e. he’s an abusive father framing his abuse as love). He isn’t empathetic; he’s a flat-out abuser who is shown literally torturing Nebula, one of his daughters, in front of another one of his daughters. That said, the scene in which Thanos hurls Gamora to her death felt hollow. Why does he get the Soul Stone? I suppose one can argue it’s because Thanos believes he loves Gamora. The scene just doesn’t work if the Soul Stone doesn’t accept the sacrifice. If it was all like, “Dude, you literally kidnapped your daughter and dragged her to Vormir against her will. Totally not love,” Thanos’ plan doesn’t work. This scene is the emotional center of Thanos’ journey, but I wonder if there was a better way to do this.

[oohhboy]

To add another problem with Thanos is why would anyone share his beliefs let alone gather enough people and resources to run around a galaxy/universe full of people who don't want to get murdered. Saying he is insane or misguided, he believes really really hard doesn't excuse how poorly written he is. Add the paper thin back story, the groan worthy attempts at audience empathy, absurd goal he lost me very quickly as someone believable.

That not even touching the Soul Stone.

[Spak-Spang]

To add another problem with Thanos is why would anyone share his beliefs let alone gather enough people and resources to run around a galaxy/universe full of people who don't want to get murdered. Saying he is insane or misguided, he believes really really hard doesn't excuse how poorly written he is. Add the paper thin back story, the groan worthy attempts at audience empathy, absurd goal he lost me very quickly as someone believable.

That not even touching the Soul Stone.

People sometimes believe the strangest religions.  Thanos' followers are religious zealots that believe at the end of the day their loyalty will save them.  Thanos is their god, so that ever bothered me.

[BranDonk Kong]

I’m conflicted. Thanos’ plan doesn’t make sense because of math. If you halved the current population of Earth, for example, it’d only take us back to the population in the 1970s so at best, Thanos “saves” about a generation of people then we’re right back where we started. Thanos’ motivation is not mathematically sound.

I think you're assuming he's only talking about earth, or that every planet in the universe has had the same population boom that earth has since the 70s. He's not.

[Adrock]

I’m conflicted. Thanos’ plan doesn’t make sense because of math. If you halved the current population of Earth, for example, it’d only take us back to the population in the 1970s so at best, Thanos “saves” about a generation of people then we’re right back where we started. Thanos’ motivation is not mathematically sound.

I think you're assuming he's only talking about earth, or that every planet in the universe has had the same population boom that earth has since the 70s. He's not.

Not assuming anything. I used Earth as an example because that’s, you know, the only planet with real world numbers to use. The snap could have halved the population of every planet or more than half in one planet and less in others to balance the numbers. It could have accounted for different population booms on different worlds and how advancements in technology affect the population etc. etc. It doesn’t really matter. If overpopulation is the perceived problem, killing half of all life in the universe isn’t a solution; it’s a a soft reset, a bandaid at best. Sooner rather than later, Thanos would have to snap again.

[Spak-Spang]

The other mentality is that mankind has changed their mindsets about families.  Larger families were not needed as much, and technological advancements have made taking care of the universe easier.  Perhaps this is one of those temporary fixes that just need to last until X point in time with breakthroughs in science will help.

Or maybe we are supposed to see the flaw in Thanos' plan because he is evil and if his plan made perfect since then we wouldn't see him as much of a villain.

[Stratos]

I’m conflicted. Thanos’ plan doesn’t make sense because of math. If you halved the current population of Earth, for example, it’d only take us back to the population in the 1970s so at best, Thanos “saves” about a generation of people then we’re right back where we started. Thanos’ motivation is not mathematically sound.

I think you're assuming he's only talking about earth, or that every planet in the universe has had the same population boom that earth has since the 70s. He's not.

Not assuming anything. I used Earth as an example because that’s, you know, the only planet with real world numbers to use. The snap could have halved the population of every planet or more than half in one planet and less in others to balance the numbers. It could have accounted for different population booms on different worlds and how advancements in technology affect the population etc. etc. It doesn’t really matter. If overpopulation is the perceived problem, killing half of all life in the universe isn’t a solution; it’s a a soft reset, a bandaid at best. Sooner rather than later, Thanos would have to snap again.

That's the point. He believed himself to be a force of nature, restoring balance to the universe. He would then do it again down the road, or someone or something else would take his place. Just as predator and prey population moves in a cycle that keeps both in check, he thinks he keeps all life pruned and lean.

[Adrock]

Then why half? Especially when, again, on Earth it would only save a generation. Why not 85%? 90%? 99.3574826%? Why not reset technological advancement and force worlds to rediscover how to reduce the infant mortality rate and/or how to live past 35? I’m not saying those are the correct choices. Rather, there are far more things that were seemingly not considered in favor of I-dunno-just-kill-half-the-things.

Thanos saw what happened to Titan and decided to apply the his “solution” to all worlds? What the **** kind of logic is that? It’s a child’s solution to a complex problem (assuming, of course, that it is a problem). It’s like when a child says they would make everything free if they were president. That isn’t how the economy works, that solution takes so little into account like other countries, inflation etc.

[oohhboy]

People sometimes believe the strangest religions.  Thanos' followers are religious zealots that believe at the end of the day their loyalty will save them.  Thanos is their god, so that ever bothered me.

Jonestown is a thing. Think how big of a Jonestown army someone has to build on Earth to rampage from city to city, killing half of the inhabitants. Even if every country was to disappear and replaced by city states all those other cities are going to band together to put has ass down.

Imagine hearing his demands: "If you surrender we will kill half of you, if you fight we will kill half of you".

Thanos requires a stupid amount of handwaving and the writers giving him stuff. It really doesn't help that we know sod all about the initiating event other than they suddenly all died. I had to keep asking why and all I get is a bunch of because reasons.

[UncleBob]

Imagine being given a villain, being told he is insane, then trying to do a critial analysis of the villain's motives based on things like logic and common sense.

I take much more issue with Civil War, finding Tony's side to be completely unbelievable both within their character arcs and within the larger universe as a whole.

But thr Mad Titan is Mad, so to go into a deep analysis of his motivations - that's just about as insane.

[BranDonk Kong]

You kill half if you truly think that will solve the problem - for one thing, people will know what happened, and they will hesitate to upset the balance again because of the potential for it to happen again. It's a simple calculus. Thanos is the only one with the will to make it happen.

[Adrock]

Imagine being given a villain, being told he is insane, then trying to do a critial analysis of the villain's motives based on things like logic and common sense.

Imagine not understanding mental illness and hand waving away a deeply flawed plan under a blanket statement like “Oh, because he cray.”

Imagine not understanding empathy so entirely that a mass murderer is being hailed as empathetic in part because he was nice to one child he adopted (after murdering her parents).

I liked Infinity War a lot. The margin of error for making this movie work was extremely slim yet I thought Marvel pulled it off. That doesn’t mean there aren’t flaws. I can accept Thanos’ motivation as misguided, but there’s no indication that he was written to be an imbecile who doesn’t understand basic math. If anything, this is more a critical analysis of the writing which I thought was largely really good otherwise. Marvel changed Thanos’ motivation from the comics but didn’t do the work to replace it with something that isn’t absurdly easy to pick apart and/or didn’t trust the audience to accept and understand a more elaborate plan.