Topic: What do you want in the next Zelda game?

[pokepal148]

i recently played through twilight princess a bit and as i was playing I began to ask myself "whats wrong with the Zelda formula". it is a bit blatant in that particular game but honestly the formula works fine. What do you think? does it need to be changed or does it simply need to be handled differently...

[ShyGuy]

Dungeons you can tackle in the order you choose. Less hand holding in the beginning. The return of Tingle.

[Ian Sane]

I think for Nintendo the formula has become too narrow.  They seem to feel the need to include a lot of the series tropes every time around when it isn't necessary.  You don't need a bow or a boomerang or the hookshot every time for example.  They don't need to revolve the story around Zelda, Ganon and the Triforce.  These are specifics and they don't have to be part of the formula.

I see the Zelda formula as much broader.  Zelda games have one continuous world, progress is made in a non-linear fashion and interaction with the environment is in realtime.  The game has a fantasy setting and, so the title makes sense, some reference to a character named "Zelda" should probably be involved (but even then I think you could push it).  That's it.  That's Zelda.  Everything else is unnecessary detail that can be stripped out or replaced and it would still feel like Zelda.

If they saw that broad approach as the formula it would allow them to be much more creative when designing the games as they would not feel the need to adhere to old tropes.  I associate Zelda with creativity and ambition and when they stick too closely to a formula those things suffer.

I think taking a broad approach to the formulas would do wonders for all of Nintendo's franchises.  For most game series there are only a small amount of factors that truly define the gameplay and everything else is flexible.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Honestly? I don't even know what I want from the Zelda series at this point. Skyward Sword was a good game but I found it to be oddly unsatisfying, familiar and a little boring. For me, Motion Plus enabled combat really didn't bring anything compelling to the table, and the much-touted fresh approach to overworld/dungeon integration failed to shake up the formula in the ways that I had hoped it might. Ultimately, I would like any new Zelda game to really surprise me. What that might look like, I'm not sure, but I definitely think that Nintendo can afford to take more risks with the series.

[Ian Sane]

To me Skyward Sword was a lot of Nintendo TELLING me they trying new things but they actually weren't.  The combat really didn't feel any different than before except now I have swing my controller around like an idiot and the overworld/dungeon integration was pretty much false.  It was incredibly obvious when you were in a dungeon and when you weren't and there was still the "collect the x magic doodads from the y dungeon/temples" template.

Hell, the game itself presented a formula I quickly picked up on.  The sky is the non-combat area.  Each segregated area is an overworld with enemies and contains two dungeons within and in each area I have to do some shitty stealth section with Guardians.  After the second dungeon I knew exactly what was coming up.  See, THAT is part of the formula, where you get the pattern the game will take you though and can guess what's coming up ahead of time.  "Hmmm, three areas?"  I guess there is a dungeon in each one of those where I have to get some doodad."  That symetrical design where everything is contained in similar sized chunks providing similar content is incredibly predictable.

If EAD legitimately thought that Skyward Sword was a fresh and new take on Zelda then they're just a bunch of old farts that have run out of ideas.

[Adrock]

1. Be less predicable.

2. Be smarter about having players explore the world. No need to pad the game with fetch quests.

3. Optional dungeons should have optional items that are worth using.

4. Fewer periods of nothing (e.g. empty fields/sky).

5. Fewer No cliches.

6. Shorter cut-scenes.

7. Stop pretending Link is still an avatar. It doesn't work anymore, probably never did. Girls play Zelda games too and there's no female option.

8. Less intrusive tutorial. You get a sword within three minutes of A Link to the Past compared to almost an hour in Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword.

9. Bonus points will be given if the Master Sword shoots magic again.

10. Just reboot the whole thing.

[Oblivion]

All I care about is getting away from the old OoT mechanics.

[Sarail]

It's so funny to me that you posted THAT screenshot, because...well...



Vine charcoal/conté crayon on bristol vellum paper. It was a Drawing 1 final for me. I got an A.

[ThePerm]

Smart Enemies. The Wii U uses less motion controls, and what I would prefer is a traditional control scheme. I want the combat to be pretty good, not too complicated, yet not too simple. I think Wind Waker had the most fun combat, idk its been a long time since i played. Maybe link needs a lot more weapons, or maybe the gear link has can be more integrated into combat.

Also, the ear link has should play into the puzzles in intelligent ways. When I played portal a couple of years ago, it was the game that most reminded me of what Zelda dungeons are supposed to feel like.

I'm big into destructable environment, and building. I'm not sure if Zelda is the right game for that, but if they were to do it right, it would be awesome.

Also, random environments. What if every time you played it was different? When I first got minecraft I played and played for hours digging into the center of the world. At first I wasn't even aware the locale was random. It felt intelligently designed because it kept me engaged.

[Caterkiller]

I just want Zelda to really feel like I am exploring a big living world again. I feel like Xenoblade has proven to me that massive open spaces are not bad, especially if you have quick and/or fun way of travel. OoT, WW, TP, and SS all had huge open spaces to explore, though not even a fraction the size of what Xenoblade offered and yet it was still too much open space. Simply because what is explored would have been forced on you anyway with more mandatory story as the only reward.


I want to be able to run up a mountain path in Zelda just because I looked at it and wondered if I could even go there. There could be barely anything along the way, except a few puzzles and items of interest  but there is a really nice pay off at the final destination. More of true exploration and being mystified at what could be out there. I'd argue Banjo Kazooie did it better than all the 3D Zelda's combined.


There is something very fascinating about seeing a cave up on a cliff, getting to the last boss and thinking, what the heck was back there all those hours ago?


Skyward Sword showed me that I can hang with motion or buttons, they are both fun. It showed me that when they want to create creatively difficult puzzles that wont require me to light a single torch with a stick they can. The puzzles in Skyward Sword were such a breath of fresh air and I hope it continues in that direction.


SS and TP both showed me that traveling and fighting on the backs of the animals can be fun. Only thing is where am I traveling too? The Loftwing should be able to take me from town to town. From the top of a mountain down to the edge of an ocean. The Loftwings hardly interacted with their hylan partners at all, it was as if they didn't exist if they weren't flying. I should be able to fly to and from multiple towns with ease. Flying to places of interest like the under side of a hanging cliff or sky island castles, towns and bean stalks littered throughout the world. By the end of the game I would want freedom to fly just about anywhere, it could easily be limited in the beginning with magical storm clouds that launch devastating lighting bolts before you completed certain tasks to move on. Still with just enough extra space that isn't mandatory.


It wouldn't have to completely over shadow a horse either. Imagine a thick forest in the over world where the canopy is too thick and thorny to be flown through. So while you can fly over and past it, the only way to explore it is on foot or on your horse where special horse shoes keep Epona from destroying her feet are needed. Too realistic? Make it some enchanted forest where it's upper portion is very Parana plant like, so anything over head gets chomped up, but down below near the base and roots of the enchanted forest it's safe. There are plenty of BS reasons to limit the travels of the animals, but not letting them fly to the ground because they are afraid is BS I won't accept.


So yeah my biggest concern is the actual exploration. I thought the condensed areas of SS were great too  for on foot exploration, but having that and HUGE over world exploration would be amazing.


Last thing is that I could care less what the land marks are called or how the towns are named. Just make more of them. I really liked TP's Hyrule Town. You couldn't talk to everyone but it seemed like a place people lived in. But then every other town with people is either severely under populated or the other intelligent races live in literal holes in the ground. There should be towns full of NPCs that look lived in. It always seems like one big town with a few slums scattered about.

[Ian Sane]

When Ocarina of Time came out I felt the world was a little cramped and small but it wasn't like other games from the time were really any bigger.  I assumed that it was a technical limitation.  But, no, all 3D Zeldas afterwards have similarly cramped areas.  The "world" of Hyrule seems to be about the size of Disneyland.  Xenoblade knocked my socks off with how unbelievably huge the game world was.  Zelda went from being one of the most epic game series of its day to being somewhat quaint.  The worlds of the Zelda games are no longer epic by modern day standards.  The rest of the industry has grown by leaps and bounds like Nintendo is still back on the N64 only with better graphics and waggle controls.

Was the original Zelda meant to be one of the most epic games of its time or is that just a coincedence and Nintendo would have made it the same size regardless of other content for the time?  In the past if you wanted to go on an epic videogame quest you would play a Zelda game but now it seems that you would play Skyrim or a sandbox game and you would play Zelda for safe Zelda formula.

Before the infamous Wind Waker switcheroo I thought about what a Gamecube Zelda would be like and I imagined sailing but in a way that would have tremendous scope.  WW ended up having little islands in a big blue ocean of nothing.  I imagined a couple of landmasses, each the size of the entire world of the N64 games.  Perhaps that was not technologically feasible at the time (but then Xenoblade effectively does it and it ain't like the Wii is miles ahead of the Gamecube) but it sure is now and I figure only Nintendo's conservative attitudes, inexperience with modern technology, or misplaced priorities (SS is full of recycled content and it is likely because they wasted so much time developing the stupid controls) would prohibit that.

[Caterkiller]

When Ocarina of Time came out I felt the world was a little cramped and small but it wasn't like other games from the time were really any bigger.  I assumed that it was a technical limitation.  But, no, all 3D Zeldas afterwards have similarly cramped areas.  The "world" of Hyrule seems to be about the size of Disneyland.  Xenoblade knocked my socks off with how unbelievably huge the game world was.  Zelda went from being one of the most epic game series of its day to being somewhat quaint.  The worlds of the Zelda games are no longer epic by modern day standards.  The rest of the industry has grown by leaps and bounds like Nintendo is still back on the N64 only with better graphics and waggle controls.

Was the original Zelda meant to be one of the most epic games of its time or is that just a coincedence and Nintendo would have made it the same size regardless of other content for the time?  In the past if you wanted to go on an epic videogame quest you would play a Zelda game but now it seems that you would play Skyrim or a sandbox game and you would play Zelda for safe Zelda formula.

Before the infamous Wind Waker switcheroo I thought about what a Gamecube Zelda would be like and I imagined sailing but in a way that would have tremendous scope.  WW ended up having little islands in a big blue ocean of nothing.  I imagined a couple of landmasses, each the size of the entire world of the N64 games.  Perhaps that was not technologically feasible at the time (but then Xenoblade effectively does it and it ain't like the Wii is miles ahead of the Gamecube) but it sure is now and I figure only Nintendo's conservative attitudes, inexperience with modern technology, or misplaced priorities (SS is full of recycled content and it is likely because they wasted so much time developing the stupid controls) would prohibit that.

I'm with you there, especially the last paragraph. When we were told we would be sailing from one island to another I let my imagination run wild. When I found out Tetra and the gang were pirates, I thought for sure there would be some huge bustling city far over the horizon that harbored huge galleons full of pirates. As happy as I was with how the story played out and how the game played I could not believe how tiny some of the islands were. If I remember correctly there was an island per map square. Out of all of those there were only about 4 places were people lived as a community and only 2 of those places had homes. How in the world did the Rito live? Where were their beds and living quarters? There is always just enough to make the game fun, which is certainly most important. But when it is just enough it doesn't feel as immersive.

Aonuma and the gang really need to take a page from Xenoblade. Heck even Mario Galaxy and Sunshine. If you can see it, let the player reach it. They certainly seem to listen to contradictory fan whining so I hope someone is looking at these boards or on Miiverse.  I see people talk about scope and scale a lot lately on there.



TP and SS were both products that Nintendo clearly went, fans want this lets give it to them. For TP it was, realistic graphics, more cut scenes, more dungeons and more like OoT! With SS it was like give us a unique art style, an over world where you are always solving puzzles and not just massive open space, constantly alternating weapons, enemies that hit harder and harder puzzles! With both games I feel like they accomplished what they set out to do for the most part. Now I just say focus on the epic scale and true exploration.

[pokepal148]

In Twilight Princess there is one particular moment i will always remember. Near the entrance to Zoras Domain i was basically wandering around for whatever reason when the usual Twilight portal opened overhead. i was left as Human Link dealing with three of the twili beasts and some lady prevented me from turning into a wolf. after dispatching the darn things that lady basically dragged me into using bomb arrows to clear some rocks that had fallen in the rapids from a canoe.

if only the game had more moments like that...

I also feel like Twilight Princess built a world filled with potential. The various villages in Hyrule felt very well designed and the game was filled with some very clever characters. and alot of them never really got a chance to shine.

[Caterkiller]

I took to the streets, the Miiverse streets in the official Zelda topic there! Find this post, "yeah" it like crazy, add your own comment and maybe our collective voices will be herd!

[Spak-Spang]

I think I would like Nintendo to focus on creating a game that delivers an open world and a cinematic experience.  The problem is having a tight narrative means some restrictions about when and how you get weapons and beat dungeons.

Personally I would like a design that has about 4 essential dungeons that store the 4 items that are needed to progress the story and allow opening to different areas.  Then I would like several mini dungeons with the other items.  These mini dungeons can be crafted with several different entrances and different kinds of puzzles which will basically allow you to complete them in any order you would like.  Though, you many not naturally find these dungeons until later in the adventure when NPCs and other environmental clues in the game show you where they are hidden. 

I also want a game that has several different exploits for the bosses.  I would love the bosses to be like puzzles with multiple solutions and exploits...so that each player comes towards the boss with a different strategy.  This could allow the game to be played several different times and in different ways.  I could also see a way to beat the game without ever collecting an item.

Finally, I don't want padding in the game.  If the game is 12 hours long, but is diverse and has replay value then so be it.  No fetch quests.  Let's try to go back to the roots of franchise and make a 3D Zelda that truly feels like the 8bit Legend of Zelda game.

[Caterkiller]

@Spak - I like the idea of 4 main dungeons that progress the story with smaller dungeons in between that can be completed in different orders. Give me that and a helper character that can be used by a 2nd player and I will be happy.

I like certain fetch quests to be honest. Go kill this monster for that item or the constant exchange of items gives me such a Links Awakening feel. But yeah many of them are just boring and no good.

@ Racht - Awesome charcoal work!

[pokepal148]

i honestly don't think the formula needs to be changed because it is just that: a formula. each game link to the past onwards has built itself around that formula.

however nintendo needs to make the game feel different. maybe one of the dungeons has a boss that is basically causing trouble for you the entire time.

For example maybe you are in a dungeon and the boss of the dungeon (a giant spider) decides to leave the boss chamber and at various points in the first two thirds of the dungeon basically starts messing with you(destroying that big staircase you were going up, having some baby spiders attack you, at one point chasing you through a corridor and fighting you as a miniboss before finally returning to its chamber.)

the entire dungeon basically has link having to deal with this creature and is in a way, a boss battle in itself

[Sarail]

Pokepal, that's actually a fairly great idea. I don't recall any other Zelda to this date that creates that kind of scenario for a dungeon. And I'd wholeheartedly welcome it - just not on every dungeon.

I welcome more of the design philosophy from Skyward Sword into the next Zelda title, too. As in, dungeons that seamlessly weave in from the overworld. SS did a great job at that at various points, and I'd like it to be taken several steps further. But something I don't want to see again is a disconnected world like SS has. I'd like to see Link travel outside of Hyrule fending off evil (the planet is Hylia, after all, and Hyrule is just one of the kingdoms.) So yeah, a bigger world, most definitely.


EDIT: Just realised you left a comment for me, Cater. Thanks! I appreciate it!

[ShyGuy]

Remember when the King of Red Lions sacrifices himself in Wind Waker?

Remember when the pig riders captured the little girl in Twilight Princess and Link had to go after them on horseback?

Remember when Groose embraced his destiny in Skyward Sword?

[Pixelated Pixies]

Remember when the King of Red Lions sacrifices himself in Wind Waker?

Remember when the pig riders captured the little girl in Twilight Princess and Link had to go after them on horseback?

Remember when Groose embraced his destiny in Skyward Sword?

Yes.
 
No.
 
And yes.

[Spak-Spang]

Pokepal, I like your idea just not for a boss dungeon.  veryfew games actually havea menance pursuing you and actively trying to stop you from achieving your goal.  I wanta main villian attacking you and trying to make your life worse in your quest.  Imagine Ganonondorf, finding the silver arrows beforeypu and destroying them.  Leaving yousaying...DANG, now how do Ibeat him?   Even having quests change dramatically, because you succeed or fail during these encounters.

[pokepal148]

Imagine Ganonondorf, finding the silver arrows beforeypu and destroying them.  Leaving yousaying...DANG, now how do Ibeat him? 

you mean like every game right before you get the master sword

[nickmitch]

Seriously, I just want 3 new mechanics that make me play those 3 areas differently than I have in a Zelda game before. That's all.

I could also do without so many obvious "You can't get the clearly visible heart piece because you don't have the obvious Zelda troupe yet" setups.

[Spak-Spang]

Imagine Ganonondorf, finding the silver arrows beforeypu and destroying them.  Leaving yousaying...DANG, now how do Ibeat him? 

you mean like every game right before you get the master sword

No I mean something more like Metroid Fusion.  Actually...that model mixed with Shadow Link would be perfect.  I would love to have a villain that is scary.  It is pursuing you and you can't defeat it...all you can do is stale or run. 

What makes Dark Link compelling is that you can do so much stuff with him.  You could have him literally be a mini-boss in almost every dungeon...each encounter requires a different strategy to get away.  From trapping him, to hookshot racing over a lava pit, While he is pursuing you.  Some encounters can even have a pass fail scenario.  You don't defeat him and he takes the item you were searching for from the dungeon, or takes an item you already collected, and now you have to get it back.  Also this character can interact with NPCs which mean that you might visit characters once and then again they react because they thought Dark Link was you.  You can even mix in the day and night system to have him hunt you in the main over world at night.   

[pokepal148]

Imagine Ganonondorf, finding the silver arrows beforeypu and destroying them.  Leaving yousaying...DANG, now how do Ibeat him? 

you mean like every game right before you get the master sword

No I mean something more like Metroid Fusion.  Actually...that model mixed with Shadow Link would be perfect.  I would love to have a villain that is scary.  It is pursuing you and you can't defeat it...all you can do is stale or run. 

What makes Dark Link compelling is that you can do so much stuff with him.  You could have him literally be a mini-boss in almost every dungeon...each encounter requires a different strategy to get away.  From trapping him, to hookshot racing over a lava pit, While he is pursuing you.  Some encounters can even have a pass fail scenario.  You don't defeat him and he takes the item you were searching for from the dungeon, or takes an item you already collected, and now you have to get it back.  Also this character can interact with NPCs which mean that you might visit characters once and then again they react because they thought Dark Link was you.  You can even mix in the day and night system to have him hunt you in the main over world at night.   

that is somewhat what i was going for with the spider thing, but i feel if done throughout the game it would get repetitive.

fusion had the SA-X encounters scripted, this  is imo why they worked so well.