Topic: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?

[Khushrenada]

Sure, I think there should be certain staples that make up a traditional Mario game. Goombas, Koopas, Pirahna plants, Bullet Bills and Boo Buddies. But you can throw in some brand new bad guys as well. One of the things that endears me to Super Mario World is Chargin' Chuck. Just out of no where, you come upon a football player. One instance, he throws baseballs at you. Later, he's tossing footballs. When you bounce on him, he charges after you. It's just kind of random but I like that. MB3 and SMW threw all manners of characters at you and most have stuck and some haven't but it just seems that instead of showing new baddies, Mario games just want to show off and copy what came before with a few new twists in level design thrown at you. I do wish they would be a bit more fearless in aspects like that. Creating new enemies could lead to new gameplay ideas also.

I guess you haven't played New Super Mario Bros. U.

Nope. Don't own a Wii U yet. Why? Do they bring back Chargin' Chuck or do they have a whole whack of brand new enemies?

[Mop it up]

I don't think the problem is that Nintendo are less creative or release less IP; I'm surprised Luigi Dude didn't post his list of Nintendo's new IP games over the last ten years, it's surprisingly large. The problem is that in most cases Nintendo don't really push the new IP. The easiest examples are The Last Story and Pandora's Tower, and maybe Xenoblade if that counts, which people had to try and fight to get released. Beyond that, there are several that never left Japan, and many more that went unadvertised.

Sometimes it feels like there are two sides to Nintendo, the creative side, and the business side. The creative side gets us the new IP games and the expertly-crafted games like Super Mario Galaxy, and the business side gets us the stagnant sure-fire hit product like New Super Mario Brothers 2 and Mario Kart VII. It would also seem that the more money Nintendo make, the more conservative they become, releasing less of the smaller titles outside Japan and sticking with the big hits.

Now I know that Nintendo needs business sense to stay in business, and so I can understand some of the decisions they've made, especially when facing an unprofitable year. But I think they can do a better job of balancing the two sides, and finding a way to make profit on smaller niché games or pushing certain new IP to become larger games. They've done this at times in the past, and they've done it even recently, with hits like Brain Age and Nintendogs. So I hope they can further improve in the future.

[Pixelated Pixies]

The easiest examples are The Last Story and Pandora's Tower, and maybe Xenoblade if that counts, which people had to try and fight to get released. Beyond that, there are several that never left Japan, and many more that went unadvertised.

That's a very salient point. Nintendo have published a number of titles in recent years which have contained innovative and novel ideas, the difficulty is that they're failing miserably to promote these games.
 
In recent days, for instance, we've seen a swath of Game of the Year awards and while it's true that most Nintendo releases this year have failed to make much of an impact, we have still seen several titles which more than deserved consideration. There were very few 'Best Downloadable' nominations for Crashmo or Spin Cycle (which is perhaps understandable in the case of the latter given the time of year at which they chose to released it), not as many 'Best Story' or 'Best RPG' nods for Xenoblade as I would have expected, and Beat the Beat (a phenomenal game) also appears to have been largely ignored by the multi-console sites.
 
There is a degree to which Nintendo have fallen in to a rut with certain series', but their meek approach to promoting those games which are adroit and interesting is what really creates this impression that they're not as creative as they used to be.

[negative_zero]

I'm not sure if we will ever again see a big new franchise from Nintendo at the level of Mario / Zelda / etc.  I think the reason for this is a bit simpler than it might seem: Nintendo's biggest / best teams are ALWAYS working on those franchises, they have no time for anything else.


On the other hand, through 2nd parties and acquisitions... maybe?  Xenoblade is huge and amazing and technically a Nintendo game.


For smaller stuff, certainly.  I love Pikmin, it's one of my favorite franchises.  Pushmo is one of the best digital games I've played.  Etc.

[ShyGuy]

I'm totally stealing Pix Pix.

[Pixelated Pixies]

I'm totally stealing Pix Pix.

Well, I can only give you and everyone else my personal approval as the person after which the 'PixPix' nickname was coined, but it is ultimately the decision of the owner of the trademark (in this case Khushrenada) as to whether or not you receive official approval.

[MegaByte]

Nope. Don't own a Wii U yet. Why? Do they bring back Chargin' Chuck or do they have a whole whack of brand new enemies?

They have a bunch of new enemies. Not like the difference between SMB3 and SMW, though there are more enemies overall.

[negative_zero]

I'm sure NSMB U does have a bunch of new enemies, but they don't seem as... iconic?  The only one I can think of off of the top of my head is the squirrel.

[NWR_insanolord]

These things aren't "iconic" overnight. Comparing things that have been out for 20 years and have become iconic to something that just came out isn't fair to the ones without nostalgia on their side.

[UncleBob]

Am I the only one amused by the fact that Nintendo gets crap for needing to be more like they were twenty years ago while getting crap for being too much like they were twenty years ago?

[ShyGuy]

Am I the only one amused by the fact that Nintendo gets crap for needing to be more like they were twenty years ago while getting crap for being too much like they were twenty years ago?

I think the real answer was people wish they were the kind of gamers they were twenty years ago.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Am I the only one amused by the fact that Nintendo gets crap for needing to be more like they were twenty years ago while getting crap for being too much like they were twenty years ago?

That's kind of skewing the argument though don't you think? Those people who argue that Nintendo should be more like they were 20 years ago are in fact saying that they wish Nintendo would be more original and less referential. If anything, what they're saying is that if Nintendo developed games today in the manner in which they did during the 8 and 16 bit era they would be moving further away from what they did 20 years ago rather than constantly referring to it.
 
Not that I necessarily agree with that argument, but that's been my understanding of it.

[UncleBob]

Well, during the 8-bit era, you'd have a point (except for the idea that Nintendo couldn't rely on their past ideas as much, though it didn't really stop them from porting in their arcade titles and rehashing them on the NES and the other way around).  But the 16-Bit era?  Come on!  Super Mario Kart?  Super Mario RPG?  Mario Paint?  Super Mario All-Stars? Yoshi, Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's Safari, Yoshi's Cookie?  Super Metroid?  Zelda 3?  Donkey Kong Country trilogy?  Kirby, Kirby, Kirby?

Anyone who thinks Nintendo didn't run their franchises into the ground during the SNES era either has their head in the ground or was too sidetracked playing all the great SNES games to notice.

[Pixelated Pixies]

@UncleBob
 
I agree. Hence why I don't agree with the argument that Nintendo have lost their creativity. As far as I can see they're as creative as they've always been.
 
The point I was trying to make is that the people who want Nintendo to develop games like they did 20 years ago (even if that desire is based on a false assumption) are in fact asking for Nintendo to do new things. I don't see anyone calling out for Nintendo to literally be more like they were 20 years ago. That would just be silly. That's why I think your point (which I'm sure was said somewhat jokingly, but which I have seen numerous times) is a misnomer.
 
To my mind there's no contradiction between wanting Nintendo to design and promote original concepts while at the same time giving them crap for trotting out rehashes of old games. I wouldn't have anything to say about Nintendo otherwise, lol. 

[TJ Spyke]

Game developers have said said the same thing. When they change a series, the fans bitch that they want it to stay the same. When they release a game that is the same, fans bitch they want something new.

[NWR_insanolord]

I've come to the conclusion that a lot of people are impossible to please when it comes to Nintendo. Not necessarily referring to people in this thread, but I think some people have this nostalgic idea in their head about how Nintendo used to be that was never true. Nintendo hasn't changed; gamers have.

[MegaByte]

It's worth mentioning that most of the new franchises that aren't getting much Nintendo love have been by subsidiaries or second parties. So, it's a marketing priority problem as much as it is a development priority problem.

[Shaymin]

I've come to the conclusion that a lot of people are impossible to please when it comes to Nintendo. Not necessarily referring to people in this thread, but I think some people have this nostalgic idea in their head about how Nintendo used to be that was never true. Nintendo hasn't changed; gamers have.

So would you say that they're insatiable?

[ShyGuy]

I've come to the conclusion that a lot of people are impossible to please when it comes to Nintendo. Not necessarily referring to people in this thread, but I think some people have this nostalgic idea in their head about how Nintendo used to be that was never true. Nintendo hasn't changed; gamers have.

So would you say that they're insatiable?

[EasyCure]

It's worth mentioning that most of the new franchises that aren't getting much Nintendo love have been by subsidiaries or second parties. So, it's a marketing priority problem as much as it is a development priority problem.

This. While I still haven't opened my copy of Xenoblade (bought it a week before Wii U, d'oh!) I keep hearing everyone here talk about it as this amazing game that every wii owner should at least try; and that's exactly why I bought it. Where were the ads though? They can't simply rely on word of mouth, Nintendo needs to at least try to advertise these games. If Sony can get away with that abysmal Play Station All-Stars ad, what is Nintendo's excuse?

[TJ Spyke]

I saw a LOT of TV commercials for Xenoblade back in April, maybe you just didn't watch the right channels.

[EasyCure]

I barely saw any for Skyward Sword and at least I know it was promoted. I guess I just watch less tv than I thought? Still, if I saw ads for Skyward Sword on the few channels I do watch, I would've seen some for Xenoblade as well, but I didn't. If it weren't for NWR, I wouldn't of known about the game.

[Khushrenada]

I'm totally stealing Pix Pix.

Well, I can only give you and everyone else my personal approval as the person after which the 'PixPix' nickname was coined, but it is ultimately the decision of the owner of the trademark (in this case Khushrenada) as to whether or not you receive official approval.

Ha ha. Well, since mods have already seen fit to change Pixpix's title, I guess you can use it. Just add the little tm after it so everyone knows its trademarked. You don't have to.

They have a bunch of new enemies. Not like the difference between SMB3 and SMW, though there are more enemies overall.

Awesome. That makes me even more interested in NSMBU now.

These things aren't "iconic" overnight. Comparing things that have been out for 20 years and have become iconic to something that just came out isn't fair to the ones without nostalgia on their side.

Exactly. Sure it can happen that a certain baddy can capture people's imagination right away but most need to time to make people familiar with them. It just seems that sometimes the focus is more on the ones that have been around for 20 years at the expense of new creations. Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing the lums in SMG popping up in Mario games as well. Especially at the end when they do these star road type levels. That's how these things become nostalgic/iconic.

[Ian Sane]

When I say I want "new IPs" what I really want is a new gameplay experiences.  Creating a new IP is just an easier way to do it.  If Nintendo makes a Mario game they're going to naturally be influenced by the existing tropes of the franchise.  But if it's a new IP there are no preconcieved notions in the minds of both the players and developers.  This allows for more freedom in game design.  Insisting that Mario be in everything just restricts creativity.  Plus I do like some novelty in new characters and settings.

I think part of why Nintendo appeared to turn off the creative juices after the N64 era was partially because it was no longer easy.  They got a lot of mileage out of turning their franchises from 2D to 3D and during the SNES era many of the franchises were still new enough that simply refining and polishing the concept was enough for the sequel to be vastly different and often superior.  On the Cube the updates were not so obvious but I think they tried really hard with games like Wind Waker and Super Mario Sunshine to be creative; the results just were not that great.

There was turnover of leadership in both NCL and NOA during the Gamecube era and I think that's the prime cause of it.  I find the earlier years of the Cube to be superior to the later years as the more creative Cube titles would have been started on while Yamauchi was still in charge.  Though it is strange that Miyamoto, who was Nintendo's most creative developer, is so in favour of being cookie cutter.  He's probably just gotten old.  I've thought of the possibility that Miyamoto's goal was always just to refine his games until they reached a point where the formula was perfected and thus could be rehashed in perpetuity.  But then after polishing 2D Mario with Super Mario World he did Yoshi's Island and Super Mario 64, both of which are very original.  We didn't get another conventional Mario sidescroller until NSMB.  If his goal was merely to polish and then rehash why wait so long?  Something changed.

For me it's lots of little things.  A good example is that Paper Mario is so different from Super Mario RPG.  I love Super Mario RPG but it was so cool that Nintendo's next Mario RPG was such a different and unique game.  Then later we got Paper Mario 2.  Yeah, that's game's still really good but it's really just More Paper Mario.  So do I really need to play it if I've played the original?  No, but any Nintendo fan damn sure needed to play Super Mario RPG and Paper Mario because of the unique gameplay experiences they provided.

And that's what I'm not interested in anymore: unessential Nintendo games.  I don't need to play any more NSMB games because there is nothing truly new or interesting in them anymore.  NSMB and NSMB Wii were not bad games at all but they offered virtually nothing that Super Mario World had not already done over 20 years ago.  At least with a new IP, and one that is positioned as some major title, a dev like EAD is FORCED to make something essential because a new IP with generic gameplay would get nowhere.  And it is important for Nintendo's future survival.  Eventually the whole world will get sick of Mario and Zelda and if they have nothing to replace them, Nintendo will die.

But I think that different Nintendo fans expect or want different things and thus we have somewhat of a split fanbase.  In their heyday Nintendo games were known for being creative and of high quality.  For me it was both elements that made me a fan.  However Nintendo's games are still typically of high quality so if that is why you're a Nintendo fan then you really have no reason to be upset with their current output.  NSMB games are still good and if you're just looking for quality then you're fine.

[EasyCure]

i read that exact post in another thread, talkback i think. Ian, you're getting lazy. Your post used to be valid, when gaming jumped from dual sucks to waggle, now they just don't cut it. All your post are cookie cutter sequels. And this anger towards nintendo, its all a gimmick! I used to be a fan, because you've made some valid points, but these days all we get are ports and sequels if your own post, rehashed with new buzzwords because you think you'll fool rubes who just joined the forums, but you've between releasing the same stuff since planet gamecube!

and that's what I'm not interested in anymore, unessential forum post. I don't need to read another NSMB game thread because I've read all those post before; there is nothing truly new it exciting in your rants. Yeah, they may be longer than they used to, but the story never changes, its just padding.

;-)