Topic: Did Nintendo turn off the creative juices after the N64 Era?

[Stratos]

I started this conversation in the rumor thread and wanted to continue it properly in it's own area.

I believe that after the N64 era Nintendo has seemingly chosen to stifle its creativity in limiting the release and the scope of their new IP. Sure, there are a few new ideas; yet Nintendo seems to either limit the scope of their newer ideas when with the proper support of their creators these IPs could easily become as big as Mario, Zelda and Pokemon

I've included the original conversation here from the rumor thread and hope to hear some more thoughts from y'all on the matter.

I'm shocked they didn't include Miis in Brawl. It just makes too much sense to include what have to be the most significant new characters Nintendo's created in close to a decade.

It's gotta be longer than a decade. I don't think Olimar and his Pikmin can't really count as significant considering Nintendo regularly ignores the series.

It is kinda sad that they are only really making one new IP or so a generation: Pikmin on the Gamecube and Miis on the Wii. Even in the established franchises they haven't made many new additions. The biggest new Mario character I can think of is Rosalina. Before that all I recall is Tingle and Waluigi in the N64 generation and one of those are just a clone.

Any other 'new' characters in the Mario world have bit roles and are tossed away after a brief cameo. And great new characters like Midna in Zelda are forgotten.

I'm hoping my memory is failing me but what else has Nintendo brought to us (and kept with us) since the time of the N64 in terms of new IPs and characters? Pikmin, Rosalina, Tingle and Miis seem to be it.

I don't count games they choose to abandon in Japan because they are just that: abandoned.

Animal Crossing was in that span, and I think a character based on that would work well. There's also Custom Robo, which is fairly obscure, but has seen two releases outside of Japan.

Dillon's Rolling Western! Nintendog! Dr. Kawashima! Dr. E Gaad!


and the new Hotness... MONITA!

No, I mean Custom Robo, but Chibi Robo is a good suggestion too. Forget about Smash Bros., though, just give me a new Custom Robo game for 3DS.

Animal Crossing was in that span, and I think a character based on that would work well. There's also Custom Robo, which is fairly obscure, but has seen two releases outside of Japan.

You mean CHIBI ROBO! perfection!

No, I mean Custom Robo, but Chibi Robo is a good suggestion too. Forget about Smash Bros., though, just give me a new Custom Robo game for 3DS.

Forgot about those, but they do seem to not fit the role of 'major' IPs. They could easily become major IPs if Nintendo would cultivate them more but Nintendo treats them more like inconvenient necessities than big releases. If it isn't Mario, Zelda, Pokemon or their 'flavor of the season' IP like Metroid or Kirby they don't make a huge deal about it.

In terms of games:
>Animal Crossing was an N64 title.
>Custom Robo hasn't seen anything since the early DS title with no Wii title. Also an older series dating back to N64 (earlier?)
>Chibi Robo's last game was a Wal-Mart exclusive which limited its availability and exposure.
>Fire Emblem skips every other title in its release schedule. Also dates back to pre-N64.
>Nintendo owns the IP rights for Eternal Darkness and it's game mechanics yet we have not seen a sequel, spiritual or otherwise.
>The 'Rainfall Three' had to be forced here with the help of Non-Nintendo forces.

All those characters you mentioned (with the possible exception of Dr. E Gaad) would fall under the label of minor characters.

I feel my original point still stands that Nintendo has not produced much, if any, meaningful new significant IP since the N64 era. They have the potential for it, but they regularly choose to ignore those underdeveloped IPs.

Thoughts? Disagreements? Has my memory failed to recall some important IPs of the past decade or so? Or has Nintendo truly begun to stagnate? I didn't see it that way until recently. Perhaps the management is getting too old and until they step down we will be stuck in this recycled loop.

[NWR_insanolord]

I believe Miyamoto has basically said he doesn't make a new IP unless he absolutely has to. If he can, he puts it in an existing franchise. Since he's in charge of Nintendo's biggest internal studio, this has understandably limited the development of new IPs in recent years. Nintendo just doesn't see the creation of new IPs as a priority.

[UncleBob]

I have to agree with Nintendo.

In the list of things I care about when playing a game, "New IP" isn't even on it.

[NWR_insanolord]

I really don't mind either, since they do a good job of innovating within their existing franchises.

[bustin98]

I don't think the issue is creating new IPs. It goes into not utilizing the potential of existing IPs. They take an idea that has worked in the past, and then stop. There is no over-arching policy that regulates a bare minimum of a customer interaction with the software.

If you look at what Microsoft and Sony are doing, they don't care about selling games, they care about using games as a gateway to the services that they sell. The services provide a platform from which customers have an experience that makes them feel more connected to other users of the service. Which is really what we want, when speaking about Smash Bros, Pikmin, etc.

These services require an infrastructure that Nintendo refuses to invest in. And their hardware is not designed to handle. The bandwidth of the WiiU available for downloading from the Internet speaks to this.

If there is a policy, it's a policy of "sell what has sold in the past". Which leads to stagnation and customer disenchantment.

You may argue the controls for the Wii were revolutionary. And I agree. But in the end, the controls are just tools to interact with the software. Sticking new controls on old software is still old software.

The troubling thing is Nintendo KNOWS they don't innovate with software. They admit they need 3rd parties to do what they refuse/don't know how to do.

All of this leads me to believe that Nintendo should have went with EA and Origin as the service provider on the WiiU because then we would have seen at least some conversation that recognizes the importance of services as a foundation for the games we play.

[UncleBob]

Nintendo has to fall back on what sells.  They don't have giant war chests and huge movie and PC divisions to fall back on.

Remember a short while ago when Nintendo games weren't selling and everyone predicted it was the end of Nintendo and their stocks fell by seventy bazillion percent?

Meanwhile, Sony's gaming division has been tanking, yet no one really talks about the end of Sony and their stock price isn't something that comes up for going down often.

Nintendo relies on what sells because it is what keeps them going.  Period.

And heck, if 26 million customers bought and played New Super Mario Bros. Wii - and New Super Mario Bros. 2 and U are still some of the top selling titles, then Nintendo's doing it right.  Instead of trying to tell the market what the market should buy, they're giving the market what they obviously want.

Sure, there's a sub-niche market for gamers who want "new" games *and* actually bought Nintendo consoles.  But Nintendo can't survive on those 7 people alone.

[azeke]

Touting "new IP" as a synonym or replacement for a good gameplay is some seriously messed up priorities.

Game doesn't automatically become better because the name of main character is unknown.

[MegaByte]

Meanwhile, Sony's gaming division has been tanking, yet no one really talks about the end of Sony and their stock price isn't something that comes up for going down often.

People talk about the end of Sony all the time. The entire company is tanking, and games were one of the things that was actually positive until the PS3.

[SixthAngel]

The services provide a platform from which customers have an experience that makes them feel more connected to other users of the service. Which is really what we want, when speaking about Smash Bros, Pikmin, etc.

We do? And download speeds say more about feeling connected to other users than the Miiverse?

The troubling thing is Nintendo KNOWS they don't innovate with software.

Let's forget about Miis, something that has been copied by every other console manufacturer and the whole Miiverse for WiiU. Nintendo innovates with its games all the time but people don't pay attention.  I'm not going to list all the games last gen for DS and Wii that brought new things to the table.  In other games Nintendo slaps Mario or a well known character onto the idea to make it sell.  That doesn't make the idea disappear or make it any less innovative, it gives it a new wrapper.

[Khushrenada]

If the topic is on whether Nintendo seems to be slowing down on new IP's, then yes, I'll agree to that to a point. There have been some new potential franchises thrown out there. But they've either had only one or two games and can't really count as a franchise yet and or haven't been promoted heavily as possible new continuing franchise.

If the topic is on whether Nintendo has shown less innovation or creativity since the N64, then I would say a definite no to that. Are there areas where they could have tried to make a new IP instead of putting an idea into an existing franchise? I would say so. The first thing that pops in my head is Kirby's Epic Yarn. Just played this game over the holiday and I think it is the best platformer on the Wii so far (although I still have to play DKCR and SMG2 so that could change) and as much as I admire and praise this game, it didn't quite feel like a Kirby game to me and I think the biggest reason is that Kirby couldn't float around endlessly which to me is what separates a Kirby platformer from any other more than the copying ability. It wasn't until the end of the game that it really seemed to revel in its Kirby identity.

But Kirby's done many other different types of gameplay that I'm not going to get too hung up about it. I'm just noting that I had a weird disconnect of really enjoying it and yet feeling the game was off because it was a bit different from the regular Kirby experience.

Anyways, off that side point and back to the main topic I see many areas where Nintendo could develop things into franchise if they wanted but just haven't yet or may not for whatever reason.

Chibi-Robo - I own both games and love this franchise. There is a 3rd game made for the DS but Nintendo has decided not to release it to North America. I do admit that it might help if this game had a bit more polish/finesse to it as the games that have been released have been fine but the worlds/graphics feel like they're stuck in the 64 era.

Elite Beat Agents - This would be a great franchise to use to experiment with different music/rhythm games. Think of using these characters as a game built around a Bongo attachment or maracas attachment or karokee game. It could be used as a franchise for introducing new music/rhythm styles to play.  It may only need one release per console/handheld but it could be established as Nintendo's go-to franchise for music/rhythm gameplay and experimentation.

Rhythm Heaven - On that same note, we've seen a Rhythm Heaven game released on the DS and the Wii. But they've both come near the end of those devices life cycles so sales might not be that high. It also gets lumped together with the Warioware franchise in the way this game is presented and works. Right now, it could be considered a potential franchise but will Nintendo bother to keep making them or would it be worth trying to expand the Elite Beat Agent brand instead and toss some of these ideas into the WarioWare franchise instead?

WarioWare - Speaking of new franchises, this could probably be considered the biggest one to come out out of the post-64 era. Excluding the Gamecube version which was basically a GBA port and any of the digitial games released, there have been 5 retail releases under this franchise and possibly one for the Wii U upcoming if Game & Wario is supposed to be a part of it. I can't think of any or other potential franchise that comes close to the support this series has got which is really interesting considering I never really hear this game come up much in conversation or for people requesting a new iteration yet it obviously seems to be selling.

Drill Dozer - This was a fine enough game. I enjoyed it while I played it and completed it but have never gone back to it after finishing it like 5 years ago. Don't really know if this could be developed further or not but it is a new IP that is all the rage.

Advance Wars - Alright. Just thought of something close to Warioware's amount of releases, Advance Wars, if you include Battalion Wars which is variation of this game but with different characters. 2 for the GBA, 2 for the DS and a BW for GC and Wii. However, BW seems to be retired for now but the main Advance Wars brand could still see another release. However, Nintendo did try to shake things up by using brand new characters and a post-apocolyptic setting with the last release. Is it because they don't have much creativity left or don't know where to take this series right now?

And I'm only just getting warmed up.

[UncleBob]

Meanwhile, Sony's gaming division has been tanking, yet no one really talks about the end of Sony and their stock price isn't something that comes up for going down often.

People talk about the end of Sony all the time. The entire company is tanking, and games were one of the things that was actually positive until the PS3.

Maybe it's because I tend to pay more attention to Nintendo-based stuff, but I just don't see the "Sony is d00med" articles very often.

[Khushrenada]

Pikmin - This is the obvious example of a new franchise after the 64 since it debuted right on Gamecube and has a 3rd entry on its way in Wii U. Yet, despite a mostly favorable reception to the past two entries, it hasn't seemed to gain much traction amongst the majority of gamers. Ask if somebody wants a re-release of Earthbound or release of Mother 3 or a new Pikmin entry and I'm sure the Earthbound/Mother3 choices come in first or second. Moreover, when people complain of not getting IP's, they are not complaining that they want a new Pikmin entry, they want something new compared to Pikmin. So, even then, releasing a new Pikmin game isn't going to satisfy the new IP crowd. It will be interesting to see how this next entry performs as that will determine its longterm viability I think.

Nintendogs - Huge DS seller when it was released but this franchise seems washed up when released on the 3DS as no one seems interested in it and I constantly see these games hugely discounted. Part of that is the common Animal Crossing complaint of being the same game again. I think also a Pet Simulator game will always have a limited shelf-life. But there's no reason that this concept couldn't be reinvorgated with a new way to play with and care for puppies and kitties. It might be a drastic change compared to what has been done previously on the last two releases but I could think of some ways to develop this brand more.

Legendary Starfy - Started in 2002 but only one release in North America so far. There was a bit of promotion when the game was released and talk about it being a potential new franchise to keep developing and releasing for but that talk seems to have fizzled out. It does seem to have a Kirby vibe to it in the art style/atmosphere and the gameplay isn't that difficult which may have had a factor in its lukewarm reception.

Luigi's Mansion - Is this considered a new IP or is it because it is Luigi it falls under the Mario brand?

Brain Age - Probably not what is thought of when talking about a new IP but it is and was a bold new idea of what could be done for a game system and helped define a new strategy and new way to get people to think of games for awhile that really defined the next 5 years or so for Nintendo. It's actually getting a 3rd sequel and has had many imitators as well. It counts.

Steel Diver - No seems interested in this game and just dismiss it as a tech demo but it is new.

Wii series - Obviously, this was a huge franchise for the Wii but it remains to be seen whether the Wii brand series of games will continue to have life on the U. Wii Fit is obviously getting a new iteration but after that? But like Brain Age, this isn't the type of thing considered as what people when requesting a new IP.

And what about existing franchises that have been reborn or reignited? Sin and Punishment saw both of it's games released on the Wii, Kid Icarus has come back after a huge abscence, Metroid Prime was a brand new way of how a Metroid game could work and play, Custom Robo and Fire Emblem have seen releases after only being in Japan. Animal Crossing also debuted here on the Gamecube and has continued? What about experiments like Super Princess Peach? Is that still a Mario title? Mario & Luigi RPG's? Is that just lumped in with Mario games or as a whole genre of Mario RPG's even if they are different compared to Paper Mario or the one that started it all Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars? Does a new IP always have to mean a brand new character or can it be a different branch of what you can include a character in?

[Khushrenada]

And why does it have to be Nintendo that comes up with the new IP? There are plenty of other new IPs that Nintendo has published from a third party or that third parties have provided:

Professor Layton, Hotel Dusk, No More Heroes, Viewtiful Joe, Super Monkey Ball, Trauma Center, Ace Attorney, Rock Band, Guitar Hero, Epic Mickey, De Blob, Billy Hatcher, Zack & Wiki, Dewy's Adventure, Elebits, The World Ends With You, DQH: Rocket Slime, Meteos, Boom Blox, Cubivore, Rhythym Thief, Henry Hatsworth and others as well. Maybe some of those games aren't that great or only needed one release because that's all that can be done with them. Some have been run into the ground or now dormant but they were all new IPs after the 64.

Why is there never talk of this but only what Nintendo brings? There are plenty of new IPs to experience if people will look for them but why the narrow focus as if Nintendo is doing nothing to expand their frontiers. With the amount they've got, they've started skipping generations before releasing a new iteration of some franchises and yet they need more. Gamers are insatiable.

[ShyGuy]

Nintendo has had several games that made an impact on gaming since the N64.

Wind Waker
Nintendogs
Brain Age
Wii Sports
Wii Fit

[Luigi Dude]

The thing I find funny is how some people ignore new IP's Nintendo makes because they aren't big budget games, but fail to realize most of Nintendo's older IP's started as small budget games as well.  I mean really, how is a smaller downloadable 3DS title like Pushmo, really any different then all the new IP's Nintendo made during the 8 and 16 bit era.  Hell, in terms of content and size, Pushmo is larger then a lot of Nintendo's 8/16 bit era games.

This is why all the smaller new IP's Nintendo creates shouldn't be ignored in these discussions since Nintendo is still creating a good amount of these with quality that rivals many of their older IP's as well.

[ShyGuy]

Every video game publisher would give their left arm to have a fraction of Nintendo's software innovation.

Mario Party and WarioWare are extremely innovative in their own right, creating new genres and spawning imitators.

Super Paper Mario had that amazing 2D switch to 3D functionality.

People need to start ripping off Luigi's Mansion, great new form of gameplay.

[Pixelated Pixies]

My short answer would be no. Nintendo games (even those which are largely iterative) absolutely burst with creativity.
 
There are of course a few series' which, for me, have become stale or lost some their potency. New Super Mario Bros., Animal Crossing, Nintendogs and Pokemon in particular. However, while new instalments in those series' may not be revolutionary they do continue to introduce clever ideas and exhibit creativity.
 
I would love to see Nintendo become less beholden to their heritage, but that's not to say that they're not an imaginative company. They most certainly are.

[UncleBob]

Every video game publisher would give their left arm to have a fraction of Nintendo's software innovation.

Mario Party and WarioWare are extremely innovative in their own right, creating new genres and spawning imitators.

Super Paper Mario had that amazing 2D switch to 3D functionality.

People need to start ripping off Luigi's Mansion, great new form of gameplay.

But those are all based off the Mario IP, so they don't count, hurrr hurrr...

[ShyGuy]

Mario is a Donkey Kong spinoff!

[Stratos]

You guys do make a lot of excellent points and pull up a number of titles I had forgotten about. Also the fact a lot of Nintendo's title's do branch out into unique 'sub-IPs' such as Luigi's Mansion and Warioware does muddy the matter of 'What constitutes a new IP?'

I would say more of my concern is in their support of these 'newer titles'. They seem more lax and unconcerned about them. New IPs on Wiiware? GREAT! Why didn't I know about it? Why did I not feel compelled to check it out? Why do we not see newer iterations of these 'newer' games? I'm not saying Nintendo isn't creative when if comes to new software. I feel they have purposely turned off the flow of their creative juices when it comes to new projects.

They toss out one or two things with limited support while shoving a near overload of their other series to the point of near burnout. Support the smaller titles. Cultivate them. I'd like to see games that can join the ranks of Mario, Zelda and Pokemon as Big Titles. Those games had humble beginnings, but they grew. I don't see the games in those infant positions growing under Nintendo's care.

[Khushrenada]

Can't believe I forgot about Pushmo/Crashmo IP.

Pixpix (I trademark that nickname by the way so if you be imitating you have to pay) brings up a good point about Nintendo being lessen holden to their heritage. Sometimes it seems like they have to cram in references and nods to so many things that have come before that it leaves one feeling as though the developers weren't really trying. A few months ago, I played New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Finally got around to it and while I enjoyed it and it was a fine game, I frankly dislike how stuck the game seems to be in trying to play off my Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World knowledge and referencing them.

Sure, I think there should be certain staples that make up a traditional Mario game. Goombas, Koopas, Pirahna plants, Bullet Bills and Boo Buddies. But you can throw in some brand new bad guys as well. One of the things that endears me to Super Mario World is Chargin' Chuck. Just out of no where, you come upon a football player. One instance, he throws baseballs at you. Later, he's tossing footballs. When you bounce on him, he charges after you. It's just kind of random but I like that. MB3 and SMW threw all manners of characters at you and most have stuck and some haven't but it just seems that instead of showing new baddies, Mario games just want to show off and copy what came before with a few new twists in level design thrown at you. I do wish they would be a bit more fearless in aspects like that. Creating new enemies could lead to new gameplay ideas also.

As for Nintendo not supporting or cultivating their newer IPs, I think it goes back to sales as others have pointed out also. I don't know what the actual numbers are but I'm just making an example that if the first Pikmin game sells 1.5 million copies and the sequel sells 1.25 million or just barely sells higher than the first and Super Mario Sunshine sells 5 million copies, what would you do? Keep cultivating Pikmin in the hopes it grows as big as Mario games? If one Mario game can sell more than 2 Pikmin games combined, is that a smart use of your division of labour? Wouldn't it make sense to release more Mario games or put more talent on those? How do you justify developing more of the titles that don't sell as much compared to developing more that will?

[lolmonade]

Did they turn off their creative juices after Nintendo 64?

No, and anyone who would claim otherwise is guilty of not paying attention or being willfully ignorant.

[broodwars]

I don't think Nintendo turned off their creative juices after the N64. I think they turned them off after the GameCube, when they saw that the masses will buy lazy **** so long as they can shake a remote control to play it. 

I want to see a major new franchise from Nintendo, not some little pet project they sneak onto the eShop and kind of ignore (as delightful as those projects can be at times).  I'm tired of seeing the same 3-5 ancient franchises being Nintendo's major releases every year.  Most of all, though, I'm sick of the nostalgia pandering in their existing franchises.  The 80s and 90s had their moments, but they're done and it's LONG past time that Nintendo gave thought to making new installments of their franchises that don't just endlessly reference an era that's increasingly irrelevant and tiresome.  Make new characters.  Design new scenarios.  Don't just throw in the same damn chiptune music and "retro" art to remind me of when I played the original games on the NES, because I'm done caring about what Nintendo had when I was a kid. I want to see what Nintendo has now.

[MegaByte]

Sure, I think there should be certain staples that make up a traditional Mario game. Goombas, Koopas, Pirahna plants, Bullet Bills and Boo Buddies. But you can throw in some brand new bad guys as well. One of the things that endears me to Super Mario World is Chargin' Chuck. Just out of no where, you come upon a football player. One instance, he throws baseballs at you. Later, he's tossing footballs. When you bounce on him, he charges after you. It's just kind of random but I like that. MB3 and SMW threw all manners of characters at you and most have stuck and some haven't but it just seems that instead of showing new baddies, Mario games just want to show off and copy what came before with a few new twists in level design thrown at you. I do wish they would be a bit more fearless in aspects like that. Creating new enemies could lead to new gameplay ideas also.

I guess you haven't played New Super Mario Bros. U.

[ThePerm]

Why does Nintendo have to come up with a new IP?

Diminishing returns.
Freshness
The Limitations of their IPs
Variety
Exclusivity

Their current IP's have been stretched for 6 generations. Zelda nad MArio while still selling well are not as popular as they were before.

Nintendo gets a reputation for not expanding what they make. They get ragged on for just making mario.

They can only modify Zelda, Mario so much. Metroid has room for change though.

Variety is good. The more franchises they have the more different experiences we can have.

Exclusivity is the biggest thing. Nintendo can't rely on third parties to give them franchises. Many times 3rd parties will just hold them from Nintendo with the dumbest excuses. The biggest complaint of the Gamecube generation was 3rd parties didnt like to compete with Nintendo on Nintendo's system. Nintendo stepped back for Wii and then they found a whole new set of complaints. If Nintendo were just to expand their franchises then they wouldnt have this issue. Nintendo can either make new franchises, buy franchises, or obtain exclusivity. Nintendo has never been big on exclusivity like Sony or Microsoft has. I'm still hoping that oen day Nintendo will buy Sega. Its hard to say. Nintendo should have a good year next year, where the prognosis of Sega is not as good.