Topic: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)

[Stogi]

N64 is still my most played system and I would go back in time and kill the fucker at Nintendo that convinced anyone to go with CD's instead of cartridges.

There is nothing better than INSTANT load times.

[Pandabair]

Could the "snubbing" of Wii U maybe also attributed to the rumors that the other two consoles will have DRM preventing used game sales? Console makers have been kinda quiet in the past on the subject but third party developers have always been vocal in their disdain for the used market, and with Microsoft and Sony basically gutting it (if true) wouldn't third parties be more supportive of them?

[EasyCure]

N64 is still my most played system and I would go back in time and kill the fucker at Nintendo that convinced anyone to go with CD's instead of cartridges.

There is nothing better than INSTANT load times.

This. Even before knowing the real difference between 1st and 3rd parties or learning that the former president was an asshole business man.. the fact that I was playing mario 64, goldeneye 007, or smash bros with NO LOADING SCREENS was by far my favorite thing about the system. The sega saturn I received as a gift collected so much dust by comparison. It didn't help that a memory card was required for the few saturn games I owned. Do I have any idea how pissed I was when I found it first hand that Mega Man 8 and X4 didn't use a password system?!

plus as a kid you're not as careful with **** in general.. I was with my saturn games, but everyone is different. My cousins who owned a PS weren't careful at all and neither were their friends. I was so excited to go over and check out Resident Evil with my own eyes after hearing about it for so long. Too bad I thought it controlled and looked like ass. The loading times just made everything worse because I knew I didn't have to be waiting so long to play a game, I could just hookup my n64 faster than their scratchy borrowed copy would load and start up some death matches. Their copy of tomb raider was the worst offender... ugh i don't even want to think about it. bad times with ps, great times with n64.

honest I don't mind if wii u repeats all that.. because its happened with every nintendo home console since them anyway. I'm too old and too busy to get mad at 3rd parties. This is a fucking hobby, I don't need you're games, but you need my money. until you offer a product worth it, you won't get any from me.

[Ceric]

I remember playing the original Playstation at a Sony store and think "While this is neat its going to be a memory in a few years."

[alegoicoe]

^Well not so much, in a couple of months the gaming industry will be introduced to the fourth generation of PS game systems. I know it's sad and all, but it's the truth, and the fact that third parties prefer Sony over Nintendo is what pisses me the most, knowing that playstation is a bastard child of Nintendo in the first place and history has shown that when it comes to originality and personality Nintendo is by far the better company, it might not be the easiest to work with but the best nevertheless.

[Ceric]

Yeah the irony of the Playstations Nintendo heritage.

[alegoicoe]

Yeah the irony of the Playstations Nintendo heritage.

fucking copycats, the only credit Sony has is for being a top model system for violent games and spreading the word that Nintendo makes only kiddie  games, **** em, and **** third party support with it too. If third parties feel like its such a burden to bring a title to a Nintendo platform then **** em, but i bet each one of them has a Nintendo console in their closet waiting for the next mario, metroid or zelda to come out, Hypocrites.

[Ian Sane]

N64 is still my most played system and I would go back in time and kill the fucker at Nintendo that convinced anyone to go with CD's instead of cartridges.

There is nothing better than INSTANT load times.

At the time all I noticed was that all the companies besides Nintendo themselves that had made some of the best NES and SNES games like Capcom, Square and Konami were moving to the Playstation.  I noticed that most games were coming to the Saturn and Playstation but NOT the N64.  I noticed that CD games were cheaper to the consumer and could be knocked down to 20 bucks easily with the Greatest Hits line.  I noticed that cool new trends at the time like FMV and CD quality music were NOT on the N64.  I noticed that entire genres like fighting games and RPGs, both of which were strong in the SNES, were all but completely absent on the N64.

Ah but the N64 had no load times.  Well was that worth losing out on all that other stuff?  Of course I think some of Nintendo's best games came out on the N64 so I'm not sure how they would have turned out on CD.  Like I don't give a **** if they had load times or not, I just wonder if other major changes had to be made.  Still that was clearly the turning point in Nintendo's history that's led to today so has Nintendo's last 15 years been worth it for no load times?  I would say absolutely not.

Of course "no load times" isn't the full story.  I think the real reason, and I thought that even then, was about control.  Nintendo does not own the CD format.  They liked how they controlled the manufacturing of cartridges.

[alegoicoe]

^I feel that the trend that Nintendo started with the N64 followed them again with the Gamecube and their overall attitude. I mean Gamecube had great titles and I survived with it the whole of last generation without a ps2 or xbox, but I do have to admit that certain Nintendo trends that luckily ended with the launch on Wii have hurt them in the long run. But things like Ubisoft now bringing Rayman Origins to other platforms after they boasted how this game could only be possible on Wii U, that shows the lack of respect big name companies have towards the consumers and their distrust that products won't sell on a Nintendo console. The funny things is that they say that only Nintendo games sell well on Nintendo platforms, I say bullshit, Nintendo games sell well because they are great games in the first place. Only because EA or Activision publish a game on the platform does not means that people have to buy it, its very simple third party or Nintendo, Nintendo gamers buy games for their quality and excuse me if Nintendo manages to raise the bar with their franchises, its only a matter of making a good game, if a third party makes a great game comparable to Nintendo games i am sure gamers are going to buy them, for example Resident Evil 4, a third party game that became an instant classic on a Nintendo platform. I am glad that Nintendo still respects their fans, recently shown by the last Nintendo Direct where Iwata himself apologized to the fans. I mean as long as they keep it real and don't forget their roots, I will wait patiently for the next game to come by. I don't need an annual version of madden, call of duty or assassins creed to keep me entertained playing the same **** over and over again, for that I have tons of classics that I don't have any problem replaying them again.

[Adrock]

Ah but the N64 had no load times.  Well was that worth losing out on all that other stuff?

It's not like Nintendo decided "Let's use cartridges. We'll lose 3rd party support, but at least there won't be any load times." Losing a support was the fallout of a bad business decision because Hiroshi Yamauchi misjudged the market and industry trends. It wasn't a choice of load times vs. 3rd party support. It was probably more like, "Let's use cartridges. It should be fine," then it wasn't. Whoops. Nintendo isn't the only one guilty of poor business decisions. Guess this one: "Let's launch a $600 console, call it a computer, and tell people we want them to think, 'I will to work more hours to buy one.' It should be fine."

They liked how they controlled the manufacturing of cartridges.

That's still true of their optical disc formats even if Panasonic is largely responsible for the technology. 3rd parties still have to go through Nintendo for that. I think it's has more to do with the fact that Nintendo (especially Miyamoto) to this day believes cartridges are better for games.

[NWR_insanolord]

This is 1990s Nintendo. The choice was between doing the same thing they'd always done, or radically changing to fit the current trends. I'm more surprised that the GameCube didn't use cartridges than that the N64 did.

[Adrock]

I'm more surprised that the GameCube didn't use cartridges than that the N64 did.

I'm actually not because instead they used 8cm discs that only held 1.5GB. That right there is typical Nintendo. They learn from their mistakes and yet simultaneously somehow still not learn from their mistakes.

[NWR_insanolord]

Yeah, those combined the worst aspect of cartridges (limited storage) with the worst aspects of discs (poor durability and load times).

[EasyCure]

N64 is still my most played system and I would go back in time and kill the fucker at Nintendo that convinced anyone to go with CD's instead of cartridges.

There is nothing better than INSTANT load times.

At the time all I noticed was that all the companies besides Nintendo themselves that had made some of the best NES and SNES games like Capcom, Square and Konami were moving to the Playstation.  I noticed that most games were coming to the Saturn and Playstation but NOT the N64.  I noticed that CD games were cheaper to the consumer and could be knocked down to 20 bucks easily with the Greatest Hits line.  I noticed that cool new trends at the time like FMV and CD quality music were NOT on the N64.  I noticed that entire genres like fighting games and RPGs, both of which were strong in the SNES, were all but completely absent on the N64.

Ah but the N64 had no load times.  Well was that worth losing out on all that other stuff?  Of course I think some of Nintendo's best games came out on the N64 so I'm not sure how they would have turned out on CD.  Like I don't give a **** if they had load times or not, I just wonder if other major changes had to be made.  Still that was clearly the turning point in Nintendo's history that's led to today so has Nintendo's last 15 years been worth it for no load times?  I would say absolutely not.

Of course "no load times" isn't the full story.  I think the real reason, and I thought that even then, was about control.  Nintendo does not own the CD format.  They liked how they controlled the manufacturing of cartridges.

Good for you, what an astute gamer you are. You know what *I* noticed? That I could have fun WITHOUT those games. At least thats what I noticed in later years, because at the time I was too busy having fun playing the games I did have instead of worrying about what I didn't. There was only ONE game that entire generation that I remember being upset about for not coming out for N64, and it eventually did - 3 years later - but by then I had already played it on a friends system and it SUCKED anyway so I was okay with it (Mega Man 64 Legends, for those who care).

No what else I noticed? That FMV's, while cool looking, were shitty distractions from games. I wanted to play, not watch movies. I had a VHS and a blockbuster card for that. I also noticed that school yard game discussions of yesterday went from actual discussions, whether it was SNES/Genesis games (exclusive or multi-platform), devolved into graphics debates and how all the PS owners pointed out to FMV's as the systems graphical fidelity versus the actual game. I'm sorry, but that **** doesn't count in my eyes. I still remember seeing the ads for FFVII for the first time and thinking "that's cool, but where's the game?" because I knew PS wasn't capable of that. When I finally saw the game in action, I couldn't help but laugh at how fugly it looked. It was a few years after it had released that I saw the game in action for the first time (keep in mind this was my pre-internet days so screen shots weren't readily available, nor was youtube). At least something like Zelda kept you in the game with its cut-scenes, all FMV's did is make me wonder how long until games could look that good, and how it made those games uglier once you got back into the gameplay. I honestly believe that those FMV's created the very first graphics whores in video game communities (I had no idea what the PC gaming community was like at the time, or that one existed).

[Stogi]

N64 is still my most played system and I would go back in time and kill the fucker at Nintendo that convinced anyone to go with CD's instead of cartridges.

There is nothing better than INSTANT load times.

At the time all I noticed was that all the companies besides Nintendo themselves that had made some of the best NES and SNES games like Capcom, Square and Konami were moving to the Playstation.  I noticed that most games were coming to the Saturn and Playstation but NOT the N64.  I noticed that CD games were cheaper to the consumer and could be knocked down to 20 bucks easily with the Greatest Hits line.  I noticed that cool new trends at the time like FMV and CD quality music were NOT on the N64.  I noticed that entire genres like fighting games and RPGs, both of which were strong in the SNES, were all but completely absent on the N64.

Ah but the N64 had no load times.  Well was that worth losing out on all that other stuff?  Of course I think some of Nintendo's best games came out on the N64 so I'm not sure how they would have turned out on CD.  Like I don't give a **** if they had load times or not, I just wonder if other major changes had to be made.  Still that was clearly the turning point in Nintendo's history that's led to today so has Nintendo's last 15 years been worth it for no load times?  I would say absolutely not.

Of course "no load times" isn't the full story.  I think the real reason, and I thought that even then, was about control.  Nintendo does not own the CD format.  They liked how they controlled the manufacturing of cartridges.

Back in the day, I didn't notice that at all. I was like 13 and played soccer and was betting to touch girls asses, not to mention getting use to being an American. I wasn't an industry analyst. I wasn't even a great consumer. I bought Donkey Kong 64. I wasn't jealous of my friends with a playstation. I was befuddled that you needed to plug in an extra socket in order to play 4 players. I was befuddled that they didn't have Mario Kart, Killer Instinct, Golden Eye, and Mace the Dark Ages.

Looking back now, you have some points. But playing now, it couldn't be better.


Basically the same post as EC

[EasyCure]

Basically the same post as EC

No, your post is better because you mentioned grabbing asses (I was 10 when it came out, girls were just starting to be a blip on my radar but there were only like 2 cute girls in school anyway, and both were bitches), as well as your post including my new favorite quote:

I wasn't even a great consumer. I bought Donkey Kong 64.

PS don't get me started on the controller expansion for PS. At first, seeing N64 had FOUR controller ports just seemed crazy. Then Mario Kart happened and I never looked back. I know the SNES had an adapter for extra controllers but the only game I can remember it using was Bomberman. If you had a copy of bomberman 64, and friends with their own controllers, you were fucking SET to party. Mario Kart, Mario Party, Bomberman, Goldeneye and Smash are still some of my favorite multiplayer memories. It made the PS look like it was meant for what Yamaguchi described RPG players as being. Sorry, twisted metal just wasn't as fun as Mario Kart. There, I said it.

[Spak-Spang]

The load times were not a problem...as in I loved the cartridges of the Nintendo 64 because no loads, and the Nintendo 64 was my favorite system second to SNES. 

However, the gaming market was changing back then...and the additional costs to license your game for a Nintendo system plus the additional costs for cartridges over CDs, just made the PS a better business decision for companies...and Nintendo lost the third parties that were developing the games Nintendo wouldn't...which is to say Nintendo makes Nintendo games but 3rd parties tend to make games for the market trends.  Once Nintendo lost that they were doomed.

Worse, once they lost them, there was little incentive to go back to Nintendo...they could make their money easily on the other system.  Sony played aggressive and Nintendo played arrogantly. 

That is why Nintendo lost the 3rd parties.  And now Nintendo is humbled, but even if Nintendo gave the 3rd parties everything they wanted, there is still no incentive to care...in a 3 console market, you only have to support 2...the 3rd is just wasted money. 

Plus, Nintendo's style of games created a false image about what Nintendo fans valued and who the Nintendo market was.

Nintendo has done much to heal their relationship with 3rd party developers, but very little to heal their image...and they must do both to make a come back that the 3rd party developers will respect.

[EasyCure]

The load times were not a problem...as in I loved the cartridges of the Nintendo 64 because no loads, and the Nintendo 64 was my favorite system second to SNES. 

However, the gaming market was changing back then...and the additional costs to license your game for a Nintendo system plus the additional costs for cartridges over CDs, just made the PS a better business decision for companies...and Nintendo lost the third parties that were developing the games Nintendo wouldn't...which is to say Nintendo makes Nintendo games but 3rd parties tend to make games for the market trends.  Once Nintendo lost that they were doomed.

Worse, once they lost them, there was little incentive to go back to Nintendo...they could make their money easily on the other system.  Sony played aggressive and Nintendo played arrogantly. 

That is why Nintendo lost the 3rd parties.  And now Nintendo is humbled, but even if Nintendo gave the 3rd parties everything they wanted, there is still no incentive to care...in a 3 console market, you only have to support 2...the 3rd is just wasted money. 

Plus, Nintendo's style of games created a false image about what Nintendo fans valued and who the Nintendo market was.

Nintendo has done much to heal their relationship with 3rd party developers, but very little to heal their image...and they must do both to make a come back that the 3rd party developers will respect.

This just in: New Retro game in development is a Mature 1st person RPG

[Ian Sane]

Ah but the N64 had no load times.  Well was that worth losing out on all that other stuff?

It's not like Nintendo decided "Let's use cartridges. We'll lose 3rd party support, but at least there won't be any load times." Losing a support was the fallout of a bad business decision because Hiroshi Yamauchi misjudged the market and industry trends. It wasn't a choice of load times vs. 3rd party support. It was probably more like, "Let's use cartridges. It should be fine," then it wasn't. Whoops. Nintendo isn't the only one guilty of poor business decisions. Guess this one: "Let's launch a $600 console, call it a computer, and tell people we want them to think, 'I will to work more hours to buy one.' It should be fine."

I agree.  They didn't realize the impact or figured the third parties would gladly stick around for a more expensive medium that had less storage.  The impact was pretty damn obvious so they SHOULD have noticed but then Sony should have known their $600 price tag was dumb as well.

I had fun with the N64.  It wasn't like the lack of third party support completely ruined it.  BUT in the SNES gen I had great Nintendo games and great third party games and on the N64 I just got great Nintendo games.  You can pull the old "quality vs. quantity" excuse out of your butt but the NES and SNES had BOTH and the Playstation had BOTH.  Imagine the same Nintendo N64 games on the same system as Symphony of the Night and Resident Evil 1 & 3 and Final Fantasy VII and Metal Gear Solid.

In the N64 years though I saw Nintendo as the same great company as before living with one crucial mistake that they had to wait a whole generation to get away from.  Then on the Gamecube I just saw them as clueless as they no longer had the big "excuse" that the N64 had.  So did they change with the Gamecube or were they secretly that clueless the whole time on the N64 and I didn't notice because I chalked up all the problems to the cartridge thing?

[NWR_insanolord]

Nintendo is, more or less, the same company they've always been. The problem is that other companies have adapted to that, which is why Sony overtook them; they knew Nintendo's MO well enough to exploit its weaknesses.

[Stogi]

Ian, I think you're simply jaded. All of us are.

Except when I look back in time, I don't see what I didn't have, I look at what I had.

Let's take the GC for example. I remember winning an intense Melee tournament at a church Superbowl party. I was invited by my friends despite being a Muslim. I remember laughing my ass off the first time I carried a defeated bulburb ("Yes my pretties. Bring back the prize and raise more minions").  I remember screaming like a little bitch the first time a Metroid popped up. And don't get me started with Wind Waker.

Where as you remember the Capcom 5.

[EasyCure]

I've never once heard the term "the capcom 5" outside of the internet.

[alegoicoe]

I've never once heard the term "the capcom 5" outside of the internet.

What about P.N. 03, only on the internet.

[EasyCure]

Yes, and I almost bought it used but skipped it.

[alegoicoe]

^Yeah man, I never had the courage to try it out, shame on me. I did play the hell out of Resident Evil 4 and B. Joe.