Topic: Game & Watch Gallery II Coming to North American eShop Next Week

[Oblivion]

So, I go to the effort of emphasizing the evidence I'm speaking from, and explaining it, and instead of just acknowledging it or furthering the discussion you fall back on (re)using a personal attack to dismiss it.

That's really rude.

LOL! It wasn't a personal attack. It was an observation of your past posts in this thread and many other's about what Neal, other staff members, or NWR does as a whole, are doing completely wrong. If it was a "personal" attack, I'd be insulting your mother or calling you stupid. I did nothing of the sort.

[NWR_Neal]

Well, at this point, I can see the sports analogy failed. I'm glad most people got what I meant despite my crappy analogy.

It's not like I'm rooting for Bill Trinen to sack Satoru Shibata and knock him out for the year. I just want parity with Europe (and, ya know, getting a little more would be cool, too ). Nowhere did I say I wanted Europe to get less games.

Also, what Oblivion said wasn't a personal attack. Repeatedly decrying me as selfish is closer to a personal attack than what he said. :


EDIT:


Also, I would like to point out that it is a little harder to put up VC games then most seem to think. Every game needs to be re-rated by the ESRB/etc. and tested. It's nowhere near as much as making an original game, but it's still not just "drag, drop, make live."

[Chocobo_Rider]

@Oblivion

When I say nice things, no one wants to keep talking about them.  When I criticize, I have a practical motivation, so when the same 3-5 people get confrontational about what I say, I will gladly further the discussion in the hopes of reaching an understanding (as uncomfortable as that may be).

So, yep... the perception is that I'm "out to get" Neal or NWR or something silly.  But the fact is, if people were more willing to discuss pleasant things, I would not get that same reputation.

When I tried to strike up a light-hearted and personal conversation with broodwars about his love of Robotech, he stopped responding outright.

When I complimented UncleBob for his use of humor, I was criticized for detailing the specifics of that humor and (apparently) thinking them a desire?

So, if people want to see more of that side of me, people have to y'know, engage me in it.

Instead, you imply that I'm just here to cause trouble and that's apparently not personal. But me questioning Neal's own (admittedly crappy) words is an attack?

I left this forum for a while because it seemed like I just wasn't going to mesh with a certain faction.  I started participating more when someone of apparently high esteem requested that I do so.  If anyone wants to PM me I will happily name names.

So, for now, I'm here ... and if reaching understandings is really that much harder than arguing? I'll leave again.

I'm glad most people got what I meant despite my crappy analogy.

Exactly. Forgive me for interpreting what you said as what you meant.

Equality = cool.
An abundance of equal services = very cool.
Wanting/expecting/demanding more than someone else? Not cool.

So if you're anything but the last one then we're all preaching the same sermon, and there's nothing to be "bummed out" about.  We've gotten more in the past, we're getting less now.  Sounds equal to me.

[broodwars]

When I tried to strike up a light-hearted and personal conversation with broodwars about his love of Robotech, he stopped responding outright.

Dude, I got busy with other stuff (namely gaming and extended lawn work), and wasn't in the mood to deal with the other half of that post.  You may have noticed that I've been rather reserved of late when it comes to the Mega Posts.  Just too tired to type that much, which is starting to get problematic because I have a backlog of Vita games to talk about in Reader Reviews.      If you still want to talk Robotech, we can go PM.

[Oblivion]

@Oblivion

When I say nice things, no one wants to keep talking about them.  When I criticize, I have a practical motivation, so when the same 3-5 people get confrontational about what I say, I will gladly further the discussion in the hopes of reaching an understanding (as uncomfortable as that may be).

So, yep... the perception is that I'm "out to get" Neal or NWR or something silly.  But the fact is, if people were more willing to discuss pleasant things, I would not get that same reputation.

When I tried to strike up a light-hearted and personal conversation with broodwars about his love of Robotech, he stopped responding outright.

When I complimented UncleBob for his use of humor, I was criticized for detailing the specifics of that humor and (apparently) thinking them a desire?

So, if people want to see more of that side of me, people have to y'know, engage me in it.

Instead, you imply that I'm just here to cause trouble and that's apparently not personal. But me questioning Neal's own (admittedly crappy) words is an attack?

I left this forum for a while because it seemed like I just wasn't going to mesh with a certain faction.  I started participating more when someone of apparently high esteem requested that I do so.  If anyone wants to PM me I will happily name names.

So, for now, I'm here ... and if reaching understandings is really that much harder than arguing? I'll leave again.

I'm glad most people got what I meant despite my crappy analogy.

Exactly. Forgive me for interpreting what you said as what you meant.

Equality = cool.
An abundance of equal services = very cool.
Wanting/expecting/demanding more than someone else? Not cool.

So if you're anything but the last one then we're all preaching the same sermon, and there's nothing to be "bummed out" about.  We've gotten more in the past, we're getting less now.  Sounds equal to me.

Dude, what are you, 15? You're acting like someone who is upset that not everyone agrees with your opinion. You even admit that Neal has a "crappy" opinion. How does that NOT agree with my statement that you have some sort of vendetta against NWR?

[Chocobo_Rider]

@broodwars

Trust me, I can understand.  I was just a little disappointed cuz we rarely connect on stuff and I thought that would be cool.  You saw what I wrote so feel free to PM me any time!  Especially if you have played any other Macross games.

@Oblivion

And see, this is part of the problem.  People really love to leap to conclusions about me.  Neal (not me) called his explanation (not opinion) crappy.  I just quoted him.  So ... ?

[UncleBob]

I'm thinking we should start a thread on the NWR Feedback forum for comments, criticisms and compliments regarding the qualty and content of NWR articles, allowing the posts for the articles to stay on topic about the subject of the article instead of these repeated deviations into territory that's been well covered by now.

Is this something the general forum audience would support?

[Chocobo_Rider]

I'm thinking we should start a thread on the NWR Feedback forum for comments, criticisms and compliments regarding the qualty and content of NWR articles, allowing the posts for the articles to stay on topic about the subject of the article instead of these repeated deviations into territory that's been well covered by now.

Is this something the general forum audience would support?

um, that just sounds like the equivalent of one of those "suggestion boxes" intended to never be checked.

I mean, if we can't voice positive or negative comments on stories, what's the point of a forum?

[BeautifulShy]

I'm thinking we should start a thread on the NWR Feedback forum for comments, criticisms and compliments regarding the qualty and content of NWR articles, allowing the posts for the articles to stay on topic about the subject of the article instead of these repeated deviations into territory that's been well covered by now.

Is this something the general forum audience would support?

These are still pretty on topic I have found. NinSage has been commenting on the 3DS VC. He is just continuing his comments from his last posts about the 3DS VC. Just trying to help you guys out. You guys haven't really got to know him.

[NWR_Neal]

While two weeks of 3DS VC in North America deserves to be celebrated, there was a three month absence of Game Boy games from the service. That is something to be "bummed out" about.

Hopefully things will balance out, but until that happens, everyone who owns a 3DS is allowed to be bummed out about having the Game Boy VC ignored in NA for three months. Even more so because every other region has consistent releases.

It's the same reason why Europe is allowed to be "bummed out" about the lateness of some of the original eShop games (they still don't have Mutant Mudds, for example).

That's great if you're not bummed out, but don't tell other people they can't be bummed out about it. You can bummed out about everyone in the world being super negative about Nintendo; others can be bummed out about not having as many VC games as Europe.

As I've said before, the way you write can be aggressive and final, making it sound like no one else is allowed to have an opinion. Even more so when you end it with stuff like "well, I've made my point. Let's just talk about other things, okay?" I'm sure you're not meaning to do that, but it's how it comes off. Obviously there are several people in the community, ranging from forumers to staffers, that get bent out of shape about it, so it's not like I'm just blowing smoke.

[Chocobo_Rider]

@Neal

I'm sorry, but if you're reading over this thread and think I'm more "aggressive" or "final" than anyone else? Well, let's just say I have a feeling what I say is coloring people's opinions a lot more than how I'm saying it.

Gamers cling really tightly to their griping, they consider it a sign of refinement and elite stature if they can so easily insist so many things are not up to their standards.  I think Michael Pachter is an attention-whore who doesn't know squat about gaming.  But his distance from the culture gives him enough perspective to accurately address the issue of what he calls "whiners" vs "complainers."  More than any other culture, gamers are whiners more than complainers.

So, no, I don't think you are anyone else here who feels offended by my challenges is blowing smoke.  But, based only on my opinions, I think it's worth that challenge if I can encourage anyone to question that imbalance of negativity.

So this negativity I am "bummed" about is in response to a desire for balance.  Some more good, and less whining, to balance out the negativity and the whining.

You can't compare that to being bummed about wanting an imbalance where we get everything we want all the time.

So, when I chimed in on this subject, I believe I very politely, very kindly asked if, given the recent 3DS VC additions, the previous drama was deserved in hindsight.  I didn't say "toldja so!" or say anyone was stupid or anything like that.  In fact, look over my first several posts.  Things didn't go off the rails until people started misinterpreting what was being said (not just by me) for the sake of a personal debate instead of a discussion on the issue.

~~~

Let's keep in mind, I don't think I've ever sworn at someone, called them a name, or implied they were not smart.  Foolish? Yup. Obtuse? I don't think I've said it but I've certainly approached them as such.

Also, if you look back at my posts, even in this thread, if someone explains something I don't immediately agree with (Insano, thank you) I'm more than happy to concede understanding.

~~~

When I first started getting into challenging discussions, people criticized me for not just letting something go after I said my piece.  So, sometimes, if I can identify that no understanding will be reached, I'll do as you said I do.  I do not believe in just ignoring a message and running away.  I think that's cowardly and disrespectful to the person you're talking with.  So, am I really that damned if I do and if I don't?

[NWR_Neal]

NinSage - Thanks for the reply. I get you're in a tough spot sometimes, but I still stand by what I said about it.

Going back to the thread's topic, you still don't even understand what I want/why I'm disappointed with NoA, though.

I don't want unrealistic demands. I don't think we should get everything we want all the time. If that were the case, I'd be writing editorials about how Virtual Boy needs to be on the VC and Nintendo is totally stupid for not doing it. Do I want that? Oh hell yea, but I'm not expecting it. That would be a little unrealistic to demand that.

All I want in regards to this subject is Virtual Console parity with Europe/PAL regions. Currently, we don't have that. It should be pretty easy to make up (there's like 5 or 6 games, I think, that Europe has that NA doesn't), but it's still disappointing/lame/etc. If hoping for North America to release the same Virtual Console games that Europe has released is unrealistic or will lead to some imbalance, then I just don't get you on this subject and I never will.

[Chocobo_Rider]

@Neal

Thank you. That was very well said and very respectful.  I appreciate it very much.

[I'm] hoping for North America to release the same Virtual Console games that Europe has released...

I think what you just said there is ideal and I can get behind it 100%.  I interpreted some things as being beyond that which you just stated, and felt the need to question/challenge them.  Not say they, or you, are stupid.  Merely cause people to really think about what they are saying and what they claim to believe on the off chance that maybe, just maybe, it will cause them to change their own mind.

Thanks again.

[UncleBob]

These are still pretty on topic I have found. NinSage has been commenting on the 3DS VC. He is just continuing his comments from his last posts about the 3DS VC. Just trying to help you guys out. You guys haven't really got to know him.

If NinSage (and others) was simply commenting on the 3DS VC, then I wouldn't see an issue.  But that's not the case - at all.  Re-read NinSage's first post in this thread.  It's not about the VC.  It's snide remarks about NWR's editorial attitude towards the VC of late.

So, is it possible that maybe we didn't need to be so dramatic about 3DS VC lately?

I just don't think this kind of talk is really warranted in the talkback thread that gets featured DIRECTLY IN the article itself.

Later in the thread, we have a somewhat new poster who tries, admirably, to bring the topic back on subject.

No one even addresses anything that poster has to say.  The next post - and all those that follow - are simply more of the same gripes that aren't related to the VC, aren't related to Game and Watch Gallery 2, and aren't related to the subject of the article.

Any chance of real, actual conversation regarding the subject is getting thrown to the wolves because everyone has a bone to pick.  In my opinion, the best solution is to ask that article threads be reasonably limited to the subject of the article.  Feedback regarding NWR's site, articles, etc. seems best suited for the NWR Discussion forum, where the subject is:

Give us feedback about the site or these forums.

Another advantage would be that we could have a single thread that covers what is, essentially, a single subject - instead of expecting posters to have read through multiple threads - threads which have seemingly covered a variety of subjects that may or may not have ever been of interest to them in the first place - posted over multiple months.  This would allow newcomers to the conversation to see if there's a pattern of behavior from any particular poster or staff member and allow them to form a better opinion on the evolution of the conversation.

But I could honestly see why someone might oppose having all of their particular types of posts together for everyone to easily see.

I mean, if we can't voice positive or negative comments on stories, what's the point of a forum?

First off, let me thank you for removing that comment about "censorship".  I detest it when people cry about censorship without having the slightest clue of what censorship is.

To answer your question, the point of a "forum" can be many things.  If you look on the forum listing, you'll see the titles of the various forums on this site ("Announcements", "Nintendo Console Discussion", "Talkback", "General Chat", etc.).  Below those titles, you'll find mini-descriptions regarding what the purpose of that forum is about.  For example, the "General Chat" forum has a description of "Discuss anything not necessarily gaming related here. Rules and common courtesy still apply." - meaning it's a forum that's pretty much open for anything (within the rules and standards of the forum, of course).

Now, I would say, the description for the "Talkback" forum could use a little tweaking - but if you look a few rows down from the Talkback forum, you'll see the "NWR Discussion" forum - which clearly states in the description that it is a place for providing feedback for the site.

However...

um, that just sounds like the equivalent of one of those "suggestion boxes" intended to never be checked.
 

...posting something like this really makes it clear that you have a low opinion of the staff on this site.  So, 'meh.

Completely on topic now - Yay!  More Game and Watch for my DS!  I have all the DSiWare titles, the previous GB release, both the little music apps (which have some G&W inspired themes)...  Hopefully, one day, all the Game and Watch titles will be released in some form via download for the 3DS.

[NWR_Neal]

I agree with UncleBob. Also, I'm somewhat at fault for the off-topic nature of this thread.

But I am super psyched to get this game on Thursday. I wasn't enraptured by the first one when it came out on 3DS VC last year, but it was still a really fun time-waster to have always on the system.

[UncleBob]

I'm thinking we should start a thread on the NWR Feedback forum for comments, criticisms and compliments regarding the qualty and content of NWR articles, allowing the posts for the articles to stay on topic about the subject of the article instead of these repeated deviations into territory that's been well covered by now.

Is this something the general forum audience would support?

For the record, my suggestion isn't really much of anything new.  I'm not out to make major changes - simply looking at ways to help foster on-topic conversation while keeping the forums more to their intended purpose.

In the Announcements Forum, there's a sticky topic called Updated! Forum Rules!

A few points of interest:

* Forum posts are expected to be on topic and deliver a certain level of content and legibility.

* Do not "derail" threads. Do not intentionally change the subject of a thread or purposefully turn a thread in an unnecessarily negative direction. If it made you think of a good topic you really want to discuss, make a new thread.

In addition, posts that are deemed inappropriate or detrimental to discussion may be removed at staff discretion. This may occur even if such posts do not warrant disciplinary action, especially to keep the conversation smooth in Talkback threads.

I've generally been a pretty easy-going moderator.  Very rarely have I ever deleted a post or issued a warning that wasn't the DIRECT result of another forum member reporting a post (except spam).  Even then, I generally try to give the reported poster the benefit of the doubt.  With this in mind, I am merely suggesting a clean, organized alternative to turning every third talkback thread into an "NWR Sucks" thread.  Talkback is designed to discuss the subject of the articles.  It has ALWAYS been this way.  That's not to say we don't occasionally discuss the article itself in talkback (this happens in reviews a LOT) - but it's generally something related to that one specific article.

What I've been seeing lately is a continuous thread of discourse running through multiple topics.  Not only does that serve to derail multiple topics, but, as I said earlier, it makes it harder for someone new or someone who doesn't read every single thread to follow along or join in with the flow of the conversation - i.e.: stifling discussion.

I'm not to the point where I'm going to make this a hard forum rule.  First off, I'm not even sure I really have the power to dictate hard forum rules.  Second, I feel that, ALL things considered, we do have a good community of folks - even the ones I disagree with from time to time.  I have the highest of respect for y'alls ability, when push comes to shove, not only to know right from wrong, but know when and where to act on that knowledge.  If I didn't, I'd simply ban you and not play games with you.  And if I haven't banned you yet, then you DO fall into that "highest of respect" category.

But do let me clear something else up - I am not a member of NWR Staff.  While I like to think that they consider me an important part of a balanced breakfast (but not important enough to invite to E3), I am merely a moderator on the forum.  I see my role as pretty much deleting spam and spammers and responding to reported posts...  So, unless a post/thread has been reported by other members of this forum, I generally won't act on it.  If you do see me act on a post or respond (either publically or via PM), then that generally means that another forum member (aside from me) has, in some way, taken offense or found your post offensive.

So, basically, don't think I'm out to get you just because I get you.

[Chocobo_Rider]

@Neal

Thank you for acknowledging all of that.

@UncleBob

1. Neal and I did just reach an understanding a few posts ago.  It's not impossible.

2. I wouldn't be here if I thought "NWR suck[ed]".  Kotaku sucks.  I haven't been there in yeeeeeears.

3. Is your new emphasis on these rules directed at anyone but me?

4. Will my many positive comments on articles also be subject to this kind of "off topic" pruning?

Recent example:

Best. Reward. Ever.

Could not agree more.

I've been checking the CN site almost daily since they went out of stock the first time.  When I saw they were back I dropped what I was doing and ordered one right away.  When it arrives I imagine the UPS guy will appear to me as a jolly, bearded fellow in red garb.  I will open the box and learn the true meaning of giving ...... surveys to companies.

Thanks for writing this up, Zach. Well done, sir!

[NWR_Neal]

NinSage - I admitted I was off-topic, and then you go and make the thread even further off-topic. C'mon, man!

[UncleBob]

NinSage - Since you are determined to continue to push this subject, when I have time tonight, I'll open a new thread on the feedback forum (where this discussion belongs) and we can openly discuss it and get input from everyone in the community as well.

Meanwhile, can we make an effort to get back on topic?