Topic: Wii U to Have $300 Price Tag, Simultaneous Tablet Play?

[Uncle_Optimus]

@broodwars

So you only care about peripheral support from the sales perspective? See, I thought you cared because you felt the right peripheral added to the game experience - the responsibility of the developer.  Now I see your point, why would third parties want to give a better experience if its not their wallet getting lined, right? 

That's not what I said.  At all.  I said that Nintendo has to establish an environment where these peripherals are supported, and it is their responsibility to do so with their own games because these are their peripherals.  And if Nintendo can't be bothered to support their own peripherals, why should 3rd parties do their work for them?  I'm happy when they do use controllers like the Classic Controller Pro while Nintendo is busy forcing less-optimal control methods into their games, but from an objective standpoint I can't blame them if they don't when Nintendo ensures that their audience don't use certain hardware by not supporting it.

I find myself agreeing with much of what is said here. To me however, these are "micro-concerns" to the macro-concern that Nintendo pretty much in general failed to support the Wii adequately over the last couple of years. Yeah, I know the pattern pretty much follows Nintendo's M.O. but its hard not to shake my head when the platform holder fails so badly to support the most popular system with adequate software.
However, and this is nitpicking, I disagree with Broodwars when he says Galaxy 2 felt unnecessary...inline with your other arguments that Motion+ should have seen more support, that system as a whole deserved more content. I am a believer that it is not the Wii's graphics that undid its momentum the past couple of years it was the lack of new content.

[Uncle_Optimus]

Also, I agree that four tablet controllers would fragment the market, because let's face it, we're looking at like $70-$100 for each tablet. That's a huge barrier for entry. I'm not arguing for four, though. I'm arguing for two.

I agree with you that the question should not be "would multi-tab support be a good thing" because as many including yourself already stated, more options for developers shouldn't hurt (at least post-launch frame when publishers may demand controller specific features be CRAMMed in to a game).
Looking at these comments concerning the price of a standalone tablet controller however, my question is rather how feasible it would be for Nintendo to pursue this feature. From a business sense, I can't help but think it would be very difficult to put these out on retail shelves...following the purchase of a $300 console, the $50-60 new game that supports multi-tab and then this second controller...man, it is a lot to expect enough willing customers to make multi-tab development worthwhile.

The price of the controller may well be the major barrier; anyone care to break this down? For the record, like Neal I figure above $60-70 is pretty much no-mans land for such a device.

Just for fun, my super-juvenile attempt:
(referencing rumoured production cost figures from forgetthebox.net)
Early Bill of Materials estimate: ~$50
Manufacturing cost (Foxconn): ~$3
Packaging and Distro: ~$4
Retailer margin: %20 (conservative? they would want sweet returns esp. for this shelf hog!)
Publisher margin: %20 (ditto)
Hackneyed Conclusion: Looks awfully close to $90-100. Nintendo might elect to take a haircut on their margin to get it out there but...I doubt they would want to do that.

Again, this is based on rumoured BOM and inferred figures that ultimately came from U-Know-Where. Would love it if anyone with a better grasp of the costs could enlighten us!

[NWR_Neal]

NinSage - Now who's the one not listening to the other?

I'm not arguing for four, though. I'm arguing for two.

As I said, I'm not saying it should have four tablet controller support. I'm saying it should have two. I think four would fragment the market. I think two wouldn't anymore than four controllers do.

[Chocobo_Rider]

@Neal

Dude, you're trying to take this high horse like I'm so impolite when I am bending over backwards to yield meaningful discussion.  At the same time, you're constantly inventing scenarios to make me look bad.

You don't want four controllers, I got that, but you talked about the cost of 4 total sets of WM+NC.  So, in order for your argument to make any sense at all, you have to compare it to 4 tablets.  So how the hell was I in the wrong there?

If you didn't want to compare apples to oranges, fine.  But you did, so I brought some more apples.  Simple as that.

If I missed something or misunderstood something, I apologize and feel free to clarify (not such a bad thing, right?).  Other than that, please stop accusing me of things I'm trying very hard not to do just for the sake of some "OH SNAP!" comment.  It didn't work for Halbred earlier and it's not working for you now.

@broodwars

The offer on those figures still stands.  Just say the word ... also feel free to respond to the Robotech stuff.  I think we're allowed to not take things personally and still have light-hearted conversations here, right? 

@Uncle_Optimus

Stellar post.  Very well thought out and reasoned.

My guess for the tablet controller is also in the $80 to $100 range if they sell it separately.  And again, I'm not saying multi-tab support wouldn't lead to more fun game OPTIONS.  I just think the financial barrier would be too big to leave the audience and developers in anything but a tight spot.
 

[NWR_Neal]

NinSage - I'm not trying to take the high horse or anything. You're just twisting what I'm saying.

I'm not comparing 4 Wii Remotes/Nunchuks to 4 Wii U controllers because, to me, I don't think 4 Wii U controllers are feasible. That's all. I agree with you that 4 Wii U controllers would fragment the market severely. That's why I'm saying 2 would be awesome, because I don't think it'll fragment the market, because it's not any different than the barrier for entry for four players using Wii Remotes/Nunchuks.

I'm not going for a "gotcha!" moment. I'm not trying to say you're being impolite. I'm just trying to make my point clear because, from your writing, it doesn't seem like you're getting what I'm saying. I might be doing the same thing, making us both at fault for a little. On that same note, you've done the "gotcha!" moment to me a few times, trying to make me look bad.

[Chocobo_Rider]

On that same note, you've done the "gotcha!" moment to me a few times, trying to make me look bad.

Disagree.  Hit us with some quotes if you want.

I'm not trying to say you're being impolite. I'm just trying to make my point clear because, from your writing, it doesn't seem like you're getting what I'm saying. I might be doing the same thing, making us both at fault for a little.

 Agree!! I think we finally understand each other since you clarified with this ...

I agree with you that 4 Wii U controllers would fragment the market severely. That's why I'm saying 2 would be awesome, because I don't think it'll fragment the market, because it's not any different than the barrier for entry for four players using Wii Remotes/Nunchuks.

 Now I see how you made a case for a situation where apples could be viewed as oranges.  Now I get it and, in this sense, we're not really saying such different things.  I'm sorry it took so long and I appreciate you acknowledging that while I could have comprehended better you could have been more clear.

I don't know how I would feel about a limit of TWO tablet controllers as support.  I guess that would be a good middle ground.  Not such a HUGE barrier to really fragment the audience but also gives people more options.

However, would other people in this thread be satisfied with a LIMIT of two tablets?
 
 ~~~

Good post, Neal.  Thank you!

 
 
 

[Uncle_Optimus]

Ninsage, many here are suspicious that the Wii U will ultimately only support one stream...IF E3 announces 2 tablet capability there WILL be backflips and high fives and pink lemonade


...until the time comes to pony up for one. I can't help but foresee Nintendo being in a "damned if they do and damned if they don't" scenario.... if they do it, a vocal component may ultimately conclude they dropped the ball and did not utilize the feature enough (in this case, the reason would likely be that not enough people bought extra tablets to spend additional development resources implementing and balancing multi-tablet functionality). If they don't, they will be dogged for the entire life cycle of the platform for "what could and should have been".
I don't envy them this situation (but I do envy all their Pokemon-begotten money bins)

[Kairon]

At Wii Launch I brought home four total Wii Remotes and four total nunchuks day one. Nintendo, do your worst. I dare you.

[ShyGuy]

I think I will side with NinSage just for kicks.

[Adrock]

I will gladly pay for a second tablet controller. I know not everyone will or wants to but that's not something I can control. If Nintendo makes it work, I want to support it. 2 controllers is probably where I draw the line because I typically only buy 1 extra controller, for my brother or a friend (I rarely ever have more than 1 person over who wants to play videogames). I have a pretty large TV and I plan on getting an even larger TV in the next year or 2. However, I still don't really like split screen beyond 2 players.

I like options though I think having so many different compatible controllers may be problematic for Nintendo. I suppose they're at the mercy of what developers actually support. I can't see many publishers trying to market a game that limited itself to 1 option so I expect 3 options for the vast majority of games: Wii Remote Plus with Nunchuck, Classic Controller, and Tablet Controller. Of course, there would be a brave publisher who would absolutely requires say tablet controllers for multiplayer (my guess would be Square-Enix) but that would be the exception, not the rule.

[Mop it up]

We don't yet know what controllers will cost but this being Nintendo, I can't imagine they will be more than $70. If the part cost rumour is anywhere near accurate, it could even be $60, which is the same as the Wiimote and Nunchuk. Parts costs also go down as time goes on, and although we didn't see the Wii's controllers drop in price, we probably would see the tablet controller drop in price if it's more than $40.

It's pretty much a given that whatever Microsoft and Sony's next system are going to be, they will have more powerful hardware than the Wii U. The tablet controller will be its main reason for existing just as the Wiimote and Nunchuk were with the Wii, so you can bet I want support for 4 of them. I know that's not going to happen though, which will make multiplayer games pretty much a Wii with better graphics. That may be fine for most people but I want more than that.

But it's all speculation for now and it's anyone's guess what will end up happening. Whatever it is, it should be interesting to see.

As far as Nintendo's peripherals are concerned, I don't believe they were ever made for more than one game in mind. For example, the Balance Board, I don't think Nintendo ever intended to use this with any game other than Wii Fit, which is why the board is bundled with Wii Fit and you can't buy it separately. Same with the wheel, it was just for Mario Kart, though it was sold separately but that's because Mario Kart is a multiplayer game. Nintendo didn't pledge more support for these accessories so they were not misrepresented, and I have no problem with them existing solely for the one game for which they were created.

The only complicated accessory is the Wii Motion Plus. Not only was the accessory quickly bundled with all Wiimotes and Wii systems, but it was soon built into the Wiimote itself at no extra cost. It seems like Nintendo pushed hard to make this the new standard, but haven't released all that many games for it (though still more than their intended one-off accessories). However, since the Wii U will use Wiimotes, I don't think we've seen the last of the Motion Plus. Who knows, maybe part of the reason they made it the new standard is because they knew it would be a primary controller on the Wii U and wanted people to have them.

[Chocobo_Rider]

@Uncle_Optimus

+1000

@ShyGuy

+1.  Thanks, bud. 

Not only was the accessory quickly bundled with all Wiimotes and Wii systems, but it was soon built into the Wiimote itself at no extra cost. It seems like Nintendo pushed hard to make this the new standard, but haven't released all that many games for it (though still more than their intended one-off accessories). However, since the Wii U will use Wiimotes, I don't think we've seen the last of the Motion Plus. Who knows, maybe part of the reason they made it the new standard is because they knew it would be a primary controller on the Wii U and wanted people to have them.

Exactly.

I do believe WM+ will be the standard for all Wii U games (not in place of the tablet mind you, in place of the plain wiimote).  I give Nintendo a ton of credit for sticking with the wiimote into this next gen.  I think that will work out well for us, developers and Nintendo.

[UncleBob]

@UncleBob

Well that didn't help the discussion any but it was funny! So, thanks for contributing comedy.  That has its place here too.

Seriously though, what you said is actually true and all companies would love to do that.  Consumers might also enjoy not spending top dollar.  However, the reason that doesn't happen is simply because of competition.  Some company blinks first and once that happens consumers have a taste for something new, the old stuff becomes less desirable by comparison and everyone has to move on.

So, you think Nintendo should artifically limit the ability of the system to make it cheaper and everyone will be happier.

Until Sony or Microsoft comes out with a system that does it... then third parties will have yet another excuse to not work with Nintendo.

But it's not like we had to deal with this before. With N64 cartridges... or online functions... component cables... HD... media streaming... or better motion controls...

[Chocobo_Rider]

@UncleBob

Never said that's what I wanted.

I was just explaining how what you said, however comically, was actually rooted in sense.

[UncleBob]

So... you do or don't want Nintendo to put a 1-Tablet limit on the system?

[Chocobo_Rider]

So... you do or don't want Nintendo to put a 1-Tablet limit on the system?

That? Yes.  The thing I elaborated on from your prior post? No.

[UncleBob]

And what would stop Sony or Microsoft from introducung a multi-tablet system?  Obviously, there's a significant portion of gamers and some developers who want to see it happen.

[Chocobo_Rider]

um, the same thing that stops any company from copying another? Nothing.

But that doesn't mean it makes any difference.  Kinect and Move tried pretty hard to "improve" on the Wii ... neither one even matched the Wii in terms of units sold or library of games, let alone surpass it.

In other words, number of tablets supported will not be the deciding factor in Wii U's success or lack there of.

[famicomplicated]

Sony already has multi tablet compatible HD console(s) on the market, it's just they don't currently communicate with each other, or have any software.

NEW Sony Multi Tablet Console - comes packed in with 2x PSV controllers, for the low low price of $750! ;-P

[Kairon]

Sony already has multi tablet compatible HD console(s) on the market, it's just they don't currently communicate with each other, or have any software.

NEW Sony Multi Tablet Console - comes packed in with 2x PSV controllers, for the low low price of $750! ;-P

Actually...put that way... hmmmmm...

[UncleBob]

um, the same thing that stops any company from copying another? Nothing.

But that doesn't mean it makes any difference.  Kinect and Move tried pretty hard to "improve" on the Wii ... neither one even matched the Wii in terms of units sold or library of games, let alone surpass it.

In other words, number of tablets supported will not be the deciding factor in Wii U's success or lack there of.

Yet the 360 is getting some major Kinect titles we're not getting on the Wii. And the 360 has been outselling the Wii of late...

[MegaByte]

For some perspective, the Kinect has been out for a year and a half and has already surpassed the lifetime sales of the GameCube and possibly the Xbox.

[NWR_insanolord]

Hasn't the 3DS also surpassed the GameCube, or was that just in Japan? Point being, that's not that high of a bar. I mean, I loved that system, but it really did not sell well.

[Adrock]

Yeah, I really loved the GameCube. Such an underrated console. I played so many great games on it. Probably my second favorite home console after SNES.

[Chozo Ghost]

Hasn't the 3DS also surpassed the GameCube, or was that just in Japan? Point being, that's not that high of a bar. I mean, I loved that system, but it really did not sell well.

You also have to remember the gaming market was a lot smaller 10 years ago, so what the Gamecube did sell back then, while not great, isn't as bad as it seems by today's standards.