Topic: RetroActive #19 Poll - GameCube 10th Anniversary Edition

[ShyGuy]

Serious question. Why do you guys add games to the poll you don't want to play?

[Mop it up]

Of these five, I own and have played Battalion Wars and Wario World. Both are fun but pretty short, oddly enough. Especially Wario World, I can see people who paid $50 for that being extremely disappointed in it due to its brevity. I enjoyed it, but I found it for a lot less than that.

I bought Star Wars Rogue Leader at launch since I wanted something to play, but never got around to it and ended up selling it a couple years back. I guess that was kind of a waste, but oh well...

I'm not really into RPGs that much which is why I never checked out Baten Kaitos, but usually if I like an RPG is it because it deviates from the norm. This one does look different but also complicated, but if it's cheap unlike I thought, I might check it out.

I ended up voting for Killer 7 since neither Battalion Wars nor Wario World seemed to have support. I've always been curious about it but never bothered to pick it up before.

[Jonnyboy117]

There is a story to be told here, that I think will clear things up. From our email thread, Greg wrote:

Given the GCN theme and our conversation about some of the best RetroActives being the ones with games that were flawed but interesting, I can't help but think of Killer 7. I've never played it, but it seems very much like the kind of game that provokes a diversity of strong opinions on it (I suspect that I might hate it, but that would be part of the fun of talking about it, I suppose).

I replied:

I almost put Killer 7 on the list, despite my strong negative reaction every time I've played it. If we have consensus, I am willing to include it.

Jon chimed in:

I own Killer 7, but (surprise surprise) have never played it.  Karl's love affair with it instantly sent up a red flag for me.  Bwahahaha.  I've also never heard a good word about it aside from Karl, so maybe it is a good candidate.

James didn't argue:

I've played it and enjoyed it well enough, but it's not a good game without the weirdness.

I think that was the last time it came up in the discussion before I posted the poll. As other games were dropped for various reasons, Killer 7 stayed on the list because no one protested, and we all seemed mildly curious (or for James, mildly positive). I didn't really think it would win in the face of strong contenders like Rogue Leader and Baten Kaitos Origins, but I usually try to have wild cards (three of them in this lineup) that could find supporters and come up with an unlikely win. It has happened before, and it happened this time. You'll hear me groan on the next RFN (facetiously), and probably even when I play it (earnestly), but clearly I was not adamantly opposed to giving this game another shot, and neither were any of the other three guys. As I told Karl recently, I want to push past the things I don't like about it to discover and appreciate what there is to like, and I may need help from the game's fans to do so.

[alegoicoe]

its cool that killer 7 won, but i was looking forward to baten kaitos, well its ok anyways i havent played killer 7 so this might be a good time to play it before the podcast.

[NWR_insanolord]

The way I see it, with the strong feelings on both sides of this game, this is either going to be the best RetroActive ever or a complete and total trainwreck. Or possibly both. Either way, I'm looking forward to it!

[Da Jarvis]

I see a lot of people complaining about killer7, but I wonder how many of them have actually played the game and are not just basing there opition on reviews or what other people have said about it. I usually don't give an opinion about a game till I play it and even if it get's good or bad reviews, I usually go off people I know have similar tastes as I do. I really don't know, but if anyone has actually played this game, do you really find it that bad? I would like to know, simply because I have not played it before and from what I have seen, it looks wired enough to get attention of some sort. I mean, I never though I would like Legend of Dragoon and I love that game to death. I am just curious if this game actually deserves the hate I am seeing. I mainly voted for it because I am curious what everyone else is going to say about it and I would love to play it to see what I think, but I won't even be close to my Wii till about a month from now at the very least and after that, I have school till Decemeber plus work. Basically, I don't think I will have time to play any Console games till then, which is a shame considering a lot is coming out in the fall. Thank god for my DS and iPhone :)


NWR, if you are reading this, a DS Themed Retro Active would be awesome for next round during Fall Semester ^_^

[broodwars]

I see a lot of people complaining about killer7, but I wonder how many of them have actually played the game and are not just basing there opition on reviews or what other people have said about it.

I owned the game back on the GameCube and played through the entire game twice, just to make sure there wasn't some hidden enjoyment I somehow missed.  So yeah, my opinion that it's one of the worst games I have played in at least the last couple of console generations is my own.

[Da Jarvis]

I owned the game back on the GameCube and played through the entire game twice, just to make sure there wasn't some hidden enjoyment I somehow missed.  So yeah, my opinion that it's one of the worst games I have played in at least the last couple of console generations is my own.

Like I have said, I have never played the game before, so all I can go off is what I hear of the game. I was just curious of how many people who are hating on the game have actually played it is all. It sounds like you have a pretty passionate hate for the game though from what I have read xD

[broodwars]

It sounds like you have a pretty passionate hate for the game though from what I have read xD

Well yeah.  The game is both utterly pretentious and mechanically abysmal, as if it were made by a game designer who had absolutely no idea what he was doing.  Oh wait, it was.

From the very moment the game begins it practically dares you to stop playing it with incomprehensible dialogue and an even more incomprehensible story that delights in going absolutely nowhere as slowly as possible; puzzles whose solutions are not only extremely obvious and simplistic but are actually displayed on your map; shooting and movement mechanics that are very restrictive and frustrating; and characters who are largely extremely unmemorable.  The game's one saving grace (besides the last level, which is by far the most comprehensible in the game) is the one thing that Suda 51 ever gets right, and that's the game's wacky style.  Anything and everything is fair and logical in the world of Suda 51, so long as it looks "cool".  Sometimes that really works, and a lot of the time it really doesn't.

Killer 7 is just a mess, the very definition of style over substance.  And if that's what you're after, there are far better games in that vein (even Suda 51 games) than this.

[Da Jarvis]

Well yeah.  The game is both gloriously pretentious and yet mechanically shitty, as if it were made by a game designer who had absolutely no idea what he was doing... Killer 7 is just a mess, the very definition of style over substance.  And if that's what you're after, there are far better games in that vein (even Suda 51 games) than this.

Intesting. So is the game popular because it is bad (like why people still play Wand of Gamalon or ET for the Atari) or because of how wacky it is? I mean, I thougth No More Heroes was pretty wacky, but I never remember not enjoying NMHs, then again, that is the only game I have played by Mr. 51 and that game got pretty solid reviews.

[broodwars]

Intesting. So is the game popular because it is bad (like why people still play Wand of Gamalon or ET for the Atari) or because of how wacky it is? I mean, I thougth No More Heroes was pretty wacky, but I never remember not enjoying NMHs, then again, that is the only game I have played by Mr. 51 and that game got pretty solid reviews.

Suda 51 may be a terrible game designer, but I'll gladly give him props that there is an appeal to the madness and energy that he imbues in his projects.  You just never know what you're going to get from the guy.  One moment, a character could be reeling off a 5 minute speech philosophizing about geopolitical issues, the next someone could drop a random pop culture reference, and the moment after that a character may literally spend 5-10 interactive minutes driving down an empty stretch of highway for no real reason.  His work is just completely random, but usually based on a solid premise that he can't stop himself from screwing-up.

The problem is that there's usually no one above him keeping him in check and not letting his auteur tendencies outweigh a Game's Prime Directive that the experience needs to be fun.  Killer 7 may have completely failed on the writing angle as well, but most of Suda 51's games fail due to just extremely bad mechanical and level design decisions.  The closest I've seen Suda 51 to producing a quality game was Shadows of the Damned (which was a decent game, if somewhat average), and renowned game designer Shinji Mikami had to keep him on a tight leash just to produce that.

[oohhboy]

Killer 7 is the game equivalent of one of those mad art house films that only make sense to the director. Your comprehension is not required and may not even be desired.

In the end, I can't call it a bad game, but I can't say it's a good game either. It just is.

Unfortunately I haven't played any other of Suda 51's works, so I can't not make comparisons as to how sane he is other than it's not "Batshit".

[Ceric]

So what your saying is that Suda 51 is like George Lucas with the Star Wars Prequels?  Without a budget and someone to keep him in check he goes way further then needed and can't strike the correct balance?

[oohhboy]

Hell no, George Lucas is just plain incompetent and greedy to boot. That man had a good idea, but he is poisonous to his own work. So no, Suda 51 is most definitely Not George Lucas.

Suda's problem with Killer 7 is that he doesn't quite know what he wants to make. It's a toss up between interactive novel, a straight up film, light gun game, or a manifesto to the bourgeois of Capitalism. It's undoubtedly unique, which makes it neither good or bad.

If measured against what is considered traditionally a "Game", then in that sense it could be considered a failure. But I don't think this was what he was trying to make and I guess by that measure it is a success of sorts that nobody in their right mind would try to follow.

[broodwars]

So what your saying is that Suda 51 is like George Lucas with the Star Wars Prequels?  Without a budget and someone to keep him in check he goes way further then needed and can't strike the correct balance?

I think a more apt comparison is that Suda 51's the video game industry's equivalent of Ed Wood.

[gbuell]

Ed Wood? No. I'd liken him much more to David Lynch - at least, Killer 7 definitely gives off a strong Lynch vibe. Lynch is another very divisive figure, but personally I like what little I've seen of his, for similar reasons that I liked Killer 7.

[Da Jarvis]

So what everyone is saying is killer7 is like Neon Genesis Evangelion in the sence that only the creator knows what it means and that he is so far up his own ass, that it doesn't make sence to anyone else but him? At least that is what I am understand...

[oohhboy]

That is partly true depending on which version of NGE your talking about. Rebuild from what has been released so far makes sense within it's own universe (and is awesome). The same cannot be said for the original, although most of the batshit insanity was confined to the last quater of the series and that "Movie". The original series shat itself partly due to running out of money, but that didn't excuse the BS at the end. ome rumour has it he was insane or that the ending was some elaborate troll. The movie sure felt like that.

[Da Jarvis]

That is partly true depending on which version of NGE your talking about. Rebuild from what has been released so far makes sense within it's own universe (and is awesome). The same cannot be said for the original... ome rumour has it he was insane or that the ending was some elaborate troll. The movie sure felt like that.

LOL! When I watched NGE for the first time, I came in with people telling me it was the best anime ever (Mostly those anyoying elitest that hate anything after the 90's), and I ended up coming out dissapointed, mostly due to how anyoying Shinji was personally. I have heard pretty solid things about the newer version of it, but I am waiting for it to be done till I try it. I never even saw the movie, but I know THAT SCENE in the hosptial was pretty much the last straw xD

[Ceric]

The best part of Evengelion is the Parodies of it.  They are better.

[Lithium]

The best part of Evengelion is the Parodies of it.  They are better.

my favourite is when Gintama did a parody of it for their "last episode"

^^^
would be better with subtitles since the Gintama characters say random **** haha

[Soren]

I voted for Killer 7 because I remember being really pumped up for it when it was first announced, along with most of the Capcom 5. The collection of bad reviews afterwards turned me off completely for the time being. But now with this poll it gives me the chance to finally give it a fair chance. I have no idea what to expect from it, but I'll play through it...

[gbuell]

I don't remember it getting a lot of bad reviews, and it has a 74 on Metacritic, which isn't TERRIBLE. I think a lot of people are overplaying the negative reaction it got when it came out.

[Lithium]

I don't remember it getting a lot of bad reviews, and it has a 74 on Metacritic, which isn't TERRIBLE. I think a lot of people are overplaying the negative reaction it got when it came out.

In the games world review scores are more inflated than the U.S dollar

heyoooooo

but seriously though while I agree with you to most people think anything under an 80% is considered bad, I mean remember the shitstorm that happened when Gamespot gave twilight princess an 8.8?

[gbuell]

Yeah, I remember that, and that shitstorm was ridiculously stupid. And I love Twilight Princess.