Topic: Episode 247: You Can Lead a Man to the Beam, But...

[Crimm]

She became a white mage because her mother was one, and part of her affections of Cecil come from the fact that he is a Dark Knight, like the one that her mother fought with. A Dark Knight that went on to become her father.

As you would say "ba'dow!"

[Jonnyboy117]

I don't remember any of that from the original English translation...

[Chocobo_Rider]

@ Jonny

You don't have to defend anything, my man.  The standards are as high as they are because so many people love and respect the game, and voice those opinions all the time.

Us folks who didn't experience it at the right time or heard too many "greatest ever" quotes are in the vast minority.

Plus, if it makes you feel better, one could easily interpret my critiques as someone who needs things spelled out for them.  In other words, CT might just expect a little more of its audience, and give a little more in return.  Some of the best works of fiction operate that way.

Games like FF4 might not be any DEEPER, as you question, but I would argue that they more quickly establish what they have to offer.  Making them more "accessible" by us unwashed masses. =P

 

[BeautifulShy]

To put things another way about Chrono Triggers story and character development another way.
Some gamers need to have all the details about the character and their motivations to really get into the story while others like myself just need the bare minimum. Basically like a frame for the house while those that need more story and details will need the whole house.

[broodwars]

Games like FF4 might not be any DEEPER, as you question, but I would argue that they more quickly establish what they have to offer.  Making them more "accessible" by us unwashed masses. =P

See, I would argue that between the two games, Final Fantasy IV is by far the slower one.  Chrono Trigger has you racing through the story setup and out to do heroic stuff in 5 minutes.  Aside from maybe the final confrontation with Lavos or the Black Omen, if you have to grind in Chrono Trigger, you're probably "doing it wrong" as the saying goes.  Final Fantasy IV takes probably a half hour just to get you out the door, and then it demands that you run around in circles for another good half hour just to grind up enough XP to survive the battles in your first dungeon.

Games for me are about the journey.  So long as motivations and characterizations are established along the way in an organic manner, that's fine with me.  Let me get to the action, the "fun" of the game.  Too many games like to front-load their experiences with extensive cutscenes and backstory that I frankly don't give a crap about in the first few hours of my games and delay getting to the actual "game" part.

[Ceric]

I haven't played Chrono Trigger yet, I need to beat the last boss in FFIV first .  I  have played almost all the way through FFIV, I need to grind some and find the adamantite.  What I can say about FFIV is that the game is paced really well.  It doesn't have you running around like a Dr.Who episode but it has a place its getting and it drives you there.  The story is interesting enough and changes things up when it starts to get stale.  I never felt that my characters where ever Gods like in other RPGs when you get to high levels.  In fact towards the end I argue the Random mobs can be harder then those last bosses, I'm looking at you face thing.  Though what I liked most is that all the characters, besides the summoner, where a hero really already.  Same reason I like Hellboy.  Its established that these character have experience and are not N00bs.   Frankly I'm really tired of the "Zero to Hero" RPG.

[Chocobo_Rider]

@ Ceric

I don't easily get tired of too much in gaming, but I agree with you that I would PREFER we see less "zero to hero" stuff just in gaming in general.

I think developers assume the audience won't be able to relate to someone powerful unless they experienced that ascension themselves.

For the same reason, I'm really ready for the silent protagonist to disappear.  I forget what video I saw this in, but the guy said "it's an RPG, just tell the damn story!"

I loved when Samus was given voice in Other M; even though doing means taking a risk people might not like.

I would love to see Link given a voice (no, you don't need to post about the CDi games or the cartoon... we're well aware and I'm pretty sure Nintendo wouldn't go that route).

I mean, which situation is more relatable and/or immersive?

Silent Pro:
Farmer: "Will you help me catch chickens or plant seeds?"
Pro: "..." *nods head*
Farmer: "You'll help me catch chickens? That's great!"

Voiced Pro:
Farmer: "Will you help me catch chickens or plant seeds?"
Pro: "Let's catch some chickens."
Farmer: "Sounds great!"

... I know right now the dominant thought is "voiced protagonists are blasphemous!" But... I'm giving it time.

[Ceric]

I'm playing Spirit Tracks right now and the dialog goes:

Zelda: You are going to help me?
Link: Yes.  OR Excuuuuusssseeee Mmeeeee Princess.

You get a choice of dialog.  I don't really like when they give the protagonist a voice but, I do not mind when they allow him to talk through dialog choices.  Invariably when they give the character a voice its different then what I give to them.  This goes for RPGs only really.  Try Siphon games.  Now if I'm playing a Spider-man game then I very well expect Spidey to by quipping the whole time.

[Chocobo_Rider]

Admittedly, I've yet to play the DS Zelda games.  Good to see they have a sense of humor.

Choice of dialog? Yea, that's definitely a step in the right direction.

[Ceric]

That was a paraphrase example but, yeah their always seems to be a chose that's a little silly initially.

[motang]

It saddens me that NOA has not said a word about Xenoblades or Last Story. I don't know what they are waiting for, we have nothing really for the Wii this year. 

[broodwars]

It saddens me that NOA has not said a word about Xenoblades or Last Story. I don't know what they are waiting for, we have nothing really for the Wii this year. 

My guess based on Nintendo's recent history is that NoA is watching how the games sell in Europe.  They're already going to be translated into English, and possibly French and Spanish so the localization work is already pretty much done.  At that point, it'll be just a matter of if NoA thinks it can get 100,000 Wii owners to buy the games.  Sadly, I think these games are going to under-perform when NoE releases them.  Both games are too late to catch their respective audiences.  I hope I'm wrong, and that NoA decides to get a clue and bring these over here.  But I think these two are going to meet the same fate Disaster, After Code, and so many other games have.  Maybe we'll get lucky and see them next generation in some form of upscaled port.

[ShyGuy]

I look forward to Xenoblade and the Last Story on the Wii U 3D virtual machine in 2018.

[NWR_insanolord]

Again, it's really not hard at all to set up the Homebrew Channel to play import games.

[Crimm]

Just to clarify a point, I know of no plans by any division of Nintendo (NCL excluded) to publish The Last Story. As far as we know it is not currently being translated. Anyone who says otherwise had best produce evidence of their claim.

[Chocobo_Rider]

Fellas, I really think it's too early to for all this pessimism regarding Xenoblade and TLS.  Heck, it was too early when people started writing these games off 5+ months ago!

Xenoblade hit Japan a year ago and was only recently announced for Europe.
TLS just hit Japan in January.

For further reference, Prof. Layton and The Last Specter was released in Japan in 2009.  Now, I admit, having heard nothing since then, I was starting to get a little worried.  After all, the Layton franchise isn't some JRPG, it's a pretty popular franchise!

But, lo and behold, the game got announced (quietly, off stage) at E3'11.

Off the top of my head, the only Wii games Westerners might enjoy that never came our way are Zengeki No Rienaisdasdak, Another Code R (or Trace Memory), and Disaster: Day of Crisis.  And the latter two made it to EU.  It's late so I'm sure I've forgotten one or two ... please feel free to list them.

So, all I'm saying is... I won't be surprised if these games get localized, and I certainly won't spend my time b*tching about it until I know for sure.

[NWR_insanolord]

The crazy thing is that The Last Story seems like it was specifically designed to appeal to Western markets.

[NeoStar9X]

Again, it's really not hard at all to set up the Homebrew Channel to play import games.

Just that it even has to get to this point with a IP that has in the past been successful in NA is crazy. I've said on another forum and maybe this one that I don't really believe Nintendo when it comes to their claim or even suggestions they want to win back/pay more attention to the "core gamer" or at least stop the ones they do have from leaving even more or at least putting more focus on other systems.  The handling of Xenoblade and The Last Story in NA, two games that are western in their design, have given me a significant amount of pause when it comes to the Wii U. Those are two games that exist now. Is it to be believed they will suddenly change their ways with the Wii U while continuing as usual now!? They have a chance now to show that they are changing yet don't seem to be taking it.

The NoE announcement was a huge surprise I felt. Yet it seems to be happening. However no announcement out of NoA regarding Xenoblade drives me crazy since if they do plan to release it there is no point to drag out an announcement. It's already being translated into English. Why not just take the British translation and the Spanish (Spain) translations and release it NA. After the PAL to NTSC conversion it would seem like no extra money would need to be spent by NoA other then printing of the disc and getting them into stores or hell just sell it online at Nintendo.com if they are that afraid of losing money. All the hard work and money spent seems to be covered by NoE already.

[Chocobo_Rider]

The crazy thing is that The Last Story seems like it was specifically designed to appeal to Western markets.

...The handling of Xenoblade and The Last Story in NA, two games that are western in their design...

Can you folks please explain how two JRPGs, steeped in Japanese style (see examples below) are in line with your comments?

TLS:
http://www.nosplay.com/imagenes/juegos/big/the-last-story-img321250.jpg
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/slsj/character/load_img/9_img_big.png

Xenoblade:
http://ultimapartida.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/SX4_C_Syuruku_W_RGB_ad-Kopie.jpg
http://blogimg.goo.ne.jp/user_image/7d/10/98291af2b05faf4f49dfa4b332853dfe.jpg

Western RPGs:
http://spawnkill.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Mass-Effect-2.jpg
http://hd-games-wallpapers.info/img/1304511919-fallout3_wallpaper0021.jpg
http://img.wallpaperstock.net:81/baldurs-gate-2-wallpapers_18212_1600x1200.jpg
http://www.totalfreewallpaper.co.cc/category/games/wallpapers/games-14/99212_wallpaper_neverwinter_nights_01_1024.jpg
http://thegamingliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/dxhr_still3.jpg
http://images.holyfragger.com/images/wallpaper/423_1295.jpg

Out of all those popular Western RPGs (source), Fable is the only one that is aesthetically in line with the JRPGs in question. Sooooo ... please explain your reasoning.

The NoE announcement was a huge surprise I felt. Yet it seems to be happening.

It's a Christmas Miraculum!

Or... just games getting released as they are oft to do.

~

Still waiting on this laundry list of games we've missed out on.

[broodwars]

Can you folks please explain how two JRPGs, steeped in Japanese style (see examples below) are in line with your comments.

It's not a question of artistic style but of design and intended audience.  When it was in development, the developers of The Last Story stated that they were designing the game to appeal to a more worldwide audience with specific elements of western game design (such as cover-based shooting).  As for Xenoblade, the game takes place in a huge world the player is encouraged to explore at their leisure.  In most JRPGs I've played (and I've played a lot), the player is funneled down a carefully scripted series of encounters and locations in order to tell a story.  There's a much less emphasis on freedom of choice and movement than in Western RPGs like Mass Effect or Fallout.

[Ceric]

Can you folks please explain how two JRPGs, steeped in Japanese style (see examples below) are in line with your comments.

It's not a question of artistic style but of design and intended audience.  When it was in development, the developers of The Last Story stated that they were designing the game to appeal to a more worldwide audience with specific elements of western game design (such as cover-based shooting).  As for Xenoblade, the game takes place in a huge world the player is encouraged to explore at their leisure.  In most JRPGs I've played (and I've played a lot), the player is funneled down a carefully scripted series of encounters and locations in order to tell a story.  There's a much less emphasis on freedom of choice and movement than in Western RPGs like Mass Effect or Fallout.

Though I will argue that is a more modern JRPG undertaking.  Ironically Western RPGs use to be more into guiding you through a story and JRPG where very open and explorative.

[Chocobo_Rider]

I'll grant you the cover system.  That has Western origins.  I don't think linear gameplay is exclusive to a region as much as certain franchises.

Got any specifics on the "global" statement.  After all, no one says "this game is designed to appeal to a narrow audience - I don't think it should come out in other regions", right?

As for the aesthetics, if all you see is lines on a screen that's your opinion.  I personally think it's a tone that applies to the whole of the content.  And that style is clearly not Western.  Agree/disagree?

I mean, Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Kirby, even Dragon Quest ... these are all made in Japan but their aesthetics, their tone, is not the same as the Final Fantasy games and until Lords of Shadow, the Castlevania games. See the difference?

[Ceric]

Can someone give me a link to Neal's story on all the 10 Review games on the site?  I can't seem to find it and its not in the sidebar and Neal pumps out news content as fast as an IT worker to free food so, I can't go to his little profile thing for it.

[NWR_Neal]

Can someone give me a link to Neal's story on all the 10 Review games on the site?  I can't seem to find it and its not in the sidebar and Neal pumps out news content as fast as an IT worker to free food so, I can't go to his little profile thing for it.

I'm no IT worker! You can find it on the Features tab, though since we're pumping out features left and right, the pages moves a lot. :X

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/feature/26784

[Ceric]

Can someone give me a link to Neal's story on all the 10 Review games on the site?  I can't seem to find it and its not in the sidebar and Neal pumps out news content as fast as an IT worker to free food so, I can't go to his little profile thing for it.

I'm no IT worker! You can find it on the Features tab, though since we're pumping out features left and right, the pages moves a lot. :X

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/feature/26784

They said News I'm fairly sure that might have been the problem.  Your a Freelance Game Journalist and Site Director.  I don't know that's awfully close.

Also Dr. Metts is my new Hero.  He gave Mario Sunshine a 10, even though I dock it to 9.9 because it introduced Bowser Jr.. Also WW and TP... lol.