Topic: Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (& 3DS)

[Anth0ny]

Smash Bros Brawl - 11 million copies

Smash Bros Melee - 7 million copies

Once again, Smash Bros is not a tournament fighter series and was never meant to be.  The sales show most people who play Smash Bros don't care.  People buy Smash Bros because it a great party fighting series, not because they want to win money at Evo.

This is something some of you can't seem to realize.  The tournament side of Smash Bros makes up a very small percent of the real audience.  To say Nintendo need to please both sides is foolish when the tournament side makes up less then 1 percent of the overall fanbase.

That could be said for any fighting game.

People buy Street Fighter because they love the characters!

People buy Marvel vs. Capcom because they love Marvel!

Street Fighter IV, with all its expansions, sold 2 million+ units. Marvel sold about 1 million. I can assure you that the competitive community in both of those games makes up less than 1% of the overall fanbase. Yet, they are catered to.

Why?

Because these are the fans who will be playing the game day and night every day until the next iteration comes out. These are the fans who will suggest/sell the game (and console) to their friends and family. To purposely dumb the game down with tripping and slow, floaty mechanics in Brawl was a huge blunder by Sakurai. To make things worse, he admitted in an interview that Melee is the sharpest game in the series.

With Namco Bandai on board, I hope to see Smash Bros return to form when it comes to balance and gameplay. Giving competitive players the finger only hurts the game in the long run. Smash 64 and Melee were fantastic competitive and party games that are still played today, I'd like to think more than Brawl. I know my group of friends dropped the game as soon as they realized their favorite characters (Samus and Captain Falcon) were nerfed to the point of being unplayable. And these guys have never played a competitive match in their life 

[Evan_B]

Melee's physics, minus the atrocious wavedashing, are better than Brawl's. That's the only "return to form" I would want from that series.

Melee may have been sharp, but I found its game mechanics to be uncomfortable and too split-second. That's great for fast, technical players, but it leaves others alienated, especially when playing with someone who is adept at those controls.

To me, Brawl has a definite learning curve and solid mechanics, and is easy to pick up. Those who exploit the glitches in Melee's physics disorient other players and are clearly on another level of enjoyment. If you wanted a return to form, you wouldn't look at Melee- you'd look at SSB, which Brawl is much more a successor to than Melee. And I'm okay with that.

[S-U-P-E-R]

Yes, Smash Brothers should absolutely remain simple to play. I feel like hand-mangling moves that you'd have to use to be able to compete would be another thing shot down by good player oversight (because they'd be able to find them).

[Kairon]

Question: why do people play points? I never play points, only stock.

[S-U-P-E-R]

I don't know anybody that doesn't play stock either. I think they really want to avoid having to wait to play again if they get knocked out.

[Silenced]

I don't even remember what points is. I always played Stock.
 
So I see that some of the conversation here centers around clones. I hope that the movesets become more unique, because there are still a few present in Brawl, though there were a few cut out in the transition from Melee. Since I know this will be argued to a point, I have done my own moveset research of the trending cloning pairs. The movesets are as based off of a Gamecube controller.
 
First off is C. Falcon and Ganondorf.
 
Standard A (Falcon): Three-hit combo followed by rapid punching
Standard A (Ganon): Electric Punch (or shove)
Verdict: Not cloned
Over-A (Falcon): Roundhouse kick
Over-A (Ganon): The 'Sparta Kick'
Verdict: Not cloned
Up-A (Falcon): Brings leg up and then crashing down on foe
Up-A (Ganon): Brings leg up and then crashing down on foe after a few seconds of charge time, dealing more damage.
Verdict: Very similar/cloned
Down-A (Falcon): Leg sweep
Down-A (Ganon): Low kick
Verdict: Not cloned
Standard B (Falcon): Powerful punch that deals high damage after being charged for a second or two.
Standard B (Ganon): Powerful punch that deals high damage afetr being charged for a second or two.
Verdict: Cloned
Over-B (Falcon): Charge that punches enemy upwards.
Over-B (Ganon): Charge that slams enemy down.
Verdict: Very similar/cloned
Up-B (Falcon): Upwards movement that latches onto an enemy it connects with, then launching off of that enemy.
Up-B (Ganon) Upwards movement that latches onto an enemy it connects with, then launching off of that enemy.
Verdict: Cloned
Down-B (Falcon): Charging kick
Down-B (Ganon): Charging kick
Verdict: Cloned
Aerial A (Falcon): Double-kick
Aerial A (Ganon): Double-kick
Verdict: Cloned
Aerial Over-A (Falcon): Electric Knee
Aerial Over-A (Ganon): Downwards punch
Verdict: Not cloned
Aerial Up-A (Falcon): Flipping kick
Aerial Up-A (Ganon): Flipping kick
Verdict: Cloned (though many other characters share this move as well)
Aerial Down-A (Falcon): Downwards leg thrust
Aerial Down-A (Ganon): Downwards leg thrust
Verdict: Cloned
FINAL SMASH (Falcon): Falcon Drive: Sends a car out at a certain length, damaging anyone hit by it in a short scene on a racetrack
FINAL SMASH (Ganon): Charging Boar: Transforms into a giant boar that charges across the screen
Verdict: Not cloned
 
Now I think the main problem, and the main reason why people believe Ganon and Falcon to be clones, is that they share very similar or cloned special moves. However, looking at their standard moves, there aren't as many cloned movements. Since special moves are meant to be unique to the character, and the two fighters share very similar or cloned specials, this causes them to be labeled as clones. Similar, yes, completely cloned, no. But too similar for the taste of me and many other gamers. Especially since Ganon has had many video game appearances that attacks can be drawn from.
 
 
 

[Evan_B]

To me, points were just awesome things I could check at the end of each match. It feels quite epic to acknowledge that you have an Avenger KO.

Ganon and C-Falc's side B's are very different, with Ganon's being ten billion times more awesome. The grab mechanic and shield break are much better.

[Silenced]

The movement itself is similar (how they charge), which is why I didn't say it was exactly cloned.
 
Now onto Fox and Falco.
 
Movements as based off of a Gamecube controller.
 
Standard A (Fox): Two punches followed by rapid kicking
Standard A (Falco): Two punches followed by rapid punching (or feather swipes)
Verdict: Very similar/cloned
Over-A (Fox): Fast forwards kick
Over-A (Falco): Fast forwards kick
Verdict: Cloned
Up-A (Fox): Handstand kick?
Up-A (Falco): Double punch (or feather swipe)
Verdict: Not cloned
Down-A (Fox): Tail swipe
Down-A (Falco): Feather swipe (his tail feather)
Verdict: Cloned
Standard B (Fox): Lazer gun
Standard B (Falco): Lazer gun, shoots slower
Verdict: Very similar/cloned
Over-B (Fox): Quick dash
Over-B (Falco): Quick dash
Verdict: Cloned
Up-B (Fox): Fox cannon, sending player upwards in a blaze of fire
Up-B (Falco): Falcon cannon? Sending player upwards in a blaze of fire
Verdict: Cloned
Down-B (Fox): Reflecter
Down-B (Falco): Kicks out a reflector
Verdict: Very similar/cloned
Aerial A (Fox): Kick
Aerial A (Falco): Triple punch (or feather swipe)
Verdict: Not cloned
Aerial Over-A (Fox): Four rapid kicks (or maybe five)
Aerial Over-A (Falco): Sideways spinning movement
Verdict: Not cloned
Aerial Up-A (Fox): Strong flip kick
Aerial Up-A (Falco): Strong flip kick
Verdict: Cloned (the movement, strength, and general area of damage of these kicks makes it a different case then Falcon and Ganon's)
Aerial Down-A (Fox): Downwards spinning movement
Aerial Down-A (Falco): Downwards spinning movement
Verdict: Cloned
Aerial Back-A (Fox): Spinning kick
Aerial Back-A (Falco): Spinning kick
Verdict: Cloned
FINAL SMASH (Fox): Landmaster tank
FINAL SMASH (Falco): Landmaster tank
 
Here again we see more copied special moves, and even some standard movements are very similar, if not cloned. Even people against the "Falco is a clone" players agree that having a FINAL SMASH copied is ridiculous, even so that a third character has it (but other than that, Wolf is much more unique). The movesets are very similar, making these characters more alike than Ganon and Falcon. The main difference is that Fox has less air time (his jumps are quicker and he falls fast) while Falco has more (jumps are higher and he falls at a slower rate).
 
 

[S-U-P-E-R]

A lot of those moves have very different functional differences that you're not giving them credit for. I don't really want to get caught up in a discussion sperging out over individual move properties, but stuff like Falco/Fox's gun functionality is radically different (hitstun/no hitstun) and makes the characters play very differently by itself, nevermind the other stuff.

In a fighting game, different properties on just one move can alter a matchup radically, or even alter the whole game if you tweak them. It's a really delicate ecosystem, really. So yeah, I'm okay with "clone" characters if they are as different as Fox and Falco. For CFalcon and Ganon, it doesn't really matter because they are both garbage, which is indicative of the much larger problem of character balance.

Ask me about how much happier I am to fight a Ken than Ryu as Dhalsim in SF4

[Louieturkey]

Ask me about how much happier I am to fight a Ken than Ryu as Dhalsim in SF4

How much happier are you to fight a Ken than Ryu as Dhalsim in SF4?

[S-U-P-E-R]

A lot, mostly because Ken's EX fireball doesn't knock down like Ryu's does. If Dhalsim gets knocked down, the other guy gets in close on Dhalsim and that's troubletown. Yes, one tiny difference on one move has a *big* effect on that matchup and how it gets played.

I tend to think that there's an even bigger difference between Falco and Fox. Also, I don't really remember so well, doesn't one of their side-B moves smash down when it hits air to air? I can't really hook my Wii up and check

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

I tend to think that there's an even bigger difference between Falco and Fox. Also, I don't really remember so well, doesn't one of their side-B moves smash down when it hits air to air? I can't really hook my Wii up and check

Yeah, that's Falco. Hard as hell to make effective use of it though, since he goes helpless after using it until he touches the ground.

[Kairon]

I personally have no problems with clones. I like the subtle variations on a theme they allow, and like SUPER believe that they actually impart significant nuances that even casual players can appreciate and experience.

[Luigi Dude]

Yeah nice to see other people agreeing for once that clones aren't a bad thing in fighting games.  Even if characters share certain moves, that doesn't mean they'll play 100% the same.  The reason I became a Luigi player in the first place was because in the original Smash Bros, Mario was my main at first because I liked his moveset the best until I unlocked Luigi.  Even though they were similar, the differences Luigi's moveset had fit my style of play much better.  I'm a hit and run fighter and my whole strategy revolves around making my oppenets follow me around the stage while I try and set traps with items.  Luig's Down-B being just one powerful hit and his Up-B at close range causing huge damage and great for KO's, fit my style much better then Mario's versions of these attacks that were multi-hit and required him to stay next to his opponents longer.  Of course Melee and Brawl have more changes to Luigi that make me prefer him over Mario way more now, but even back in the original when they were more similar, just those little changes made a big difference to me.

This is why when I see people complain about clones I just roll my eyes at them because these so called clones to the people that actually play and try and master them end up being completely different characters, even if the moves they have look somewhat similar to the character they're based off of.

[Kairon]

And to reiterate, I really believe that less skilled, more casual players (like myself) "get" those small differences and can access that part of the gameplay, not to mention just having more characters to heap our love onto in general.

[MagicCow64]

Absolutely. I'm not competitive, but I got a lot better at Melee (or maybe just liked it more) because I was able to expand my character set. I liked Link, but could never use him effectively. Solved with Young Link. Captain Falcon was too slippery for me, but Ganondorf became the only heavy character I felt natural using. I always hated Ness , but feel quite comfortable with Lucas. It just sucks they fucked up Marth in Melee and tried to compensate for it with Ike.

[Louieturkey]

So I guess Sakurai spoke at CEDEC and had some stuff to say about the new Smash.

From Magicbox on August 20th:

Masahiro Sakurai from HAL Laboratory, producer of Kirby and Smash Bros. series had an hour of keynote speech at CEDEC developer conference, he mentioned that in the upcoming Smash Bros title, all characters will have new skills, there are many new characters, and it is fun to work on these features.

I wonder what his definition of "many new characters" actually would be.   Is it 10 new characters? 20? 5?

[Caterkiller]

All the reports I've seen of that conference never mentioned that ALL characters will have new moves. I think something was lost in translation. Every other site has only reported the part about making moves for new characters is fun.

Oh how I would love for every character to get a few major revamps in just a few of their attacks, but for every character to get all new attacks? No way.


Actually what am I thinking? Of course each character will get new moves. It didn't happen from Melee to Brawl but it certainly isn't impossible.

[Louieturkey]

New moves could be as much as one or two moves being altered slightly.  Some characters will probably get full revamps, but most that are staying will probably keep a lot of their moves.  Link will probably be modeled after the Skyword Sword version so that gives a couple new moves.

It does sound like he's having fun with this again.  I think he got burned out with Brawl and is probably the reason why there were flaws with the balance.  Hopefully, he won't get burned out this time.

[Luigi Dude]

That Magic Box links is not to be trusted since they added their own spin to what Sakurai said.  OMN had a better article that translated the original Famitsu source as just "It's fun making new skills for new characters."

http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/41045/smash-bros-wii-u-and-3ds-sakurai-confirms-new-characters/

So basically all Sakurai said is he's having fun making new characters in the upcoming Smash Bros.  Nothing about completely redoing old character movesets or he's adding many new characters.  All he said was he's making new characters and that's it, which shouldn't be a surprise since a crossover fighting series like Smash Bros will always have new characters added.


Magix Box has mis translated articles in the past so their statements on what Sakurai said were another mistranslation vs OMN which gives a more accurate meaning on what Sakurai was saying.

[Caterkiller]

I read it at first as full revamps for all characters. Again my reading comprehension is failing me. But if each character got something equivalent to Mario's fludd in the new game I would be happy. I don't mean a none damaging attack with pushing properties but something that is truly unique to their move sets in animation and effect.

In Brawl it was Mario/Fludd, Ganondorf/vacuume kick, Bowser/flying slam, Falco's Smashes and none specials, Kirby's yoyo break dance and I think that is it.

Man if DK can get a barrel roll and barrel throw man would I cry tears of joy! With a barrel throw he would just have a slightly better chance against ZSS and DDD, at least with Brawl's physics. At the very least give DK a down mid air special! Like a mid air clap that sends a paralyzing shock wave or something.

Bowser being able to shoot a stream of fire and smaller fire balls that travel would be nice as well. Though really big characters like him don't need EXTREME lag animation from darn near every attack they use. Then add in at least 1 or 2 quick, get-out-of-my-face spacing moves and he would be so much more viable.

I'd also love to see Yoshi using his tongue for more than grabs, either that or make it longer. More than that though I'd like his entire egg function to be changed. Eggs that follow yoshi, bounce or explode depending on the color, Maybe like a King Dedede or Peach mechanic he would randomly lay those giant eggs like in SMW2 that would cause a devastating hit. One can dream...

[Mop it up]

Question: why do people play points? I never play points, only stock.

I do when playing with three other players, so that one or two people don't have to sit and wait whilst the others finish. We liked Time and Bonus matches, and I was pretty disappointed at bonuses being removed from SSBBrawl.

As far as clones go, I'm fine with them when they make sense. For example, of course Luigi is somewhat similar to Mario, he's his brother. But then we have Ganondorf being based on Captain Falcon's moveset, and that's just stupid. For me, the appeal of Smash Brothers is the characters, so I hope this time around they forgo single player junk and focus on adding as many characters and stages as they can, even if some characters are similar to others. It's not about variety, it's about people seeing their favourite characters in the game.

[nickmitch]

I like points because the last 30 seconds are always hectic attempts to get that one last kill to take the lead or force a tie.

[Spak-Spang]

The problem with cloned characters wasn't that they were cloned characters...every fighter has those...it was that people wanted or expected different things.

Example:  Gannodorf.  The more I played them the less I felt he was a clone.  He literally played completely different from Captain Falcon.  If I could play Falcon well it did not mean I could just move to Gannondorf and play him well.

That said...nobody wanted a Gannondorf that played like he did.  He didn't feel like the iconic character.  Which is why people complained...and is why in the new game he needs a brand new move list.  Where was his dark magic?  His giant sword?  It wasn't to be seen...and that was disappointing.

With the Star Fox characters, I feel that they just oversaturated the game with them.  Falco and Fox are fine and interesting...but once they threw in Wolf, it was three characters from the same universe which were too similar and not wanted.  They could have molded Falco and Wolf into one character and created an even more varying character from Fox. 

When I think of the sequels to Smash Brothers, the one thing I keep thinking is they kept on adding too much to the formula and making it more complicated.  Melee and Brawl both have single frames where if you land an attack perfectly it does more damage...this type of complexity in timing the moves took some of the joy out of the game. 

The level and stage designs of both Melee and Brawl made the game less enjoyable than the original because the levels themselves became a hinderance to the simple fighting and positioning in the game. 

Finally, I think the inclusion of assit trophies...too many new pokemon that had crazy screen effects and such had a negative impact on the experience. 

I want the new smash brothers to be innovative but I want it to go back to basics too.  Look at what things worked the best in brawl and Melee and say how can we just make this simpler and more elegant.  For example.  I loved being able to catch thrown objects, and the rolls to position yourself around other people.  The shields in Melee however were overly complicated and pointless. 

[Anth0ny]

I can't imagine some of the more iconic movesets being massively overhauled. Maybe small changes to select moves, like Mario's FLUDD or Falco's reflector in Brawl.

As for the clone discussion, speaking as a former Falco main, I can tell you he's a totally different character from Fox. I'm okay with clones, as they are a part of every fighting game ever made.

I'm not fine with a character as iconic as Ganondorf sharing such a similar moveset with Captain Falcon. Again, the two play very differently, but Ganon's moveset can easily be transferred to Black Shadow. Create something unique for arguably the greatest Nintendo villain of all time!