Topic: Fighting Games: JOIN THA WULFPACK

[S-U-P-E-R]

Evo is this weekend guys! Although I cannot travel to America to play this year, I will be watching the entire time (except I might have to go work before grand finals are over. ****). AFAIK, there will be at least two live streams running at all times. If anybody else is watching from home, I'd like to urge you to join my takeover of NWR chat for sexy fighting game discussion.
 
Any bets on winners?

[KDR_11k]

Do fighting games really work as a spectator game? All I see when those games are played is dudes pulling different punches, without knowing all those characters in and out it doesn't seem possible to discern just what exactly is going on. Contrast that to something like Shootmania or Starcraft which I have no clue of but thanks to the commentators it was possible to follow what's going on and quickly understand what's good and what's bad. With 30 second matches and so many different characters that seems kinda difficult.

[S-U-P-E-R]

Yeah actually, fightin' games have some really good commentators. I'd like to think it's easier to tell what's going on than in StarCraft. I mean, you have two characters with two lifebars hitting each other until they die. I dunno, check out the first three matches of one of my favorite sets of all time and see what you think:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVTdAOb54xI#t=4m45s

Edit: I suppose mvc2 is actually the most complicated game available...

Here's a pre-emptive cheat sheet for some terms you might hear, just in case

Canceling - Canceling refers to connecting one move to another in a way that reduces the recovery frames of the first move, and usually allows you to combo moves together that otherwise would not be fast enough to connect to each other. It's most often used in the context of connecting a normal to a special move, or a special move to a super move, and is done by simply inputting the next move before the current move is done being performed. The most common notation for cancels when talking about 2D fighters is "xx," so if you see a Ryu combo that reads c.MK xx hadouken xx shinkuu hadouken, you would press down + medium kick (which is called "forward kick" in Street Fighter, just to confuse you) for the crouching MK, then cancel it into a fireball by performing the quarter-circle forward and punch while your kick is still going, then cancel that into his super fireball by doing the super fireball input while Ryu is doing the first fireball. If canceling didn't exist, Ryu would be standing there recovering from his first fireball for way too long to throw a super fireball and have it connect as part of the same combo. Canceling normals into each other is the basis for chain comboing, which is discussed below.
 
"Chains" vs. "Links" - A chain combo is a string of moves wherein the beginning of one move in the string cancels the recovery frames of the previous move; i.e., the moves "chain" together smoothly and are done simply by pressing one button after the other, usually with fairly even timing. Conversely, links are sequences of moves wherein each move has to completely finish its recovery animation before you can do the next move in the string. This often means that more precise timing is required, because you're left with a pretty small window during which your opponent is still "reeling" from the previous hit (i.e., they're in hitstun) while you perform the next move in the sequence. Games with a stronger emphasis on chain combos include Darkstalkers and Marvel vs. Capcom 3. Street Fighter IV more strongly emphasizes links. Tekken has a mix of each, technically speaking.
 
Damage/Hitstun Scaling - Because of the huge damage potential that combo systems create, many games institute a sort of proration system to put limits on what is possible through combos. Damage scaling refers to the gradual decrease in damage that your attacks do as your combo gets longer, so a hard attack done as the 5th hit of a combo does a lot less damage than it does when it's the 1st hit of the combo. Similarly, hitstun scaling is a gradual reduction in the amount of recovery time your opponent has after each hit. The latter is basically a failsafe to help prevent infinite combos from emerging, since eventually your opponent will recover so quickly from being hit that further comboing becomes impossible. There are mixed opinions about this mechanic in the fighting game community. You may also see these terms referred to as hitstun deterioration, proration, reduction, decay, etc.
 
Option Selects - An option select is a situation in which one input (or set of inputs) can result in multiple outputs, depending on which output is best for the situation. Example: in Street Fighter IV, throws are broken by inputting light punch (LP) and light kick (LK) at the same time when your opponent attempts to throw you. By pressing down-back + LP + LK while on defense, you create an option select: down-back blocks low, so if your opponent is in the middle of an attack (standing or low), the game engine ignores your LP and LK inputs in favor of blocking the attack. If your opponent attempts to throw you, the LP + LK input will break the throw. If your opponent does nothing, the game engine prioritizes the crouching (down-back) and LK inputs, and your character will do a c.LK, which is usually a very quick/safe move. The term is a bit obtuse, but you can see in this situation that one set of inputs results in three different "options" to select from.
 
Resets - A reset is when you intentionally drop a combo to create an opportunity to start a new combo. This is done to maximize damage output by connecting 2 (or more) combos rather than just one complete combo -- i.e., it's better to do 4 hits of a 5-hit combo, reset, and get another 5-hit combo than to just land 5 hits in the first place. This is especially true of games that have severe damage scaling on longer combos, like Marvel vs. Capcom, since you're "resetting" the damage and hitstun scaling. The risk, of course, is that any time you drop a combo, you give your opponent an opportunity to block or escape further damage, so the most effective resets are those that are done unexpectedly, or in ways that are very confusing/difficult to escape.
 
Throw Breaks, Techs, and Softening - "Teching" a throw refers to inputting a command in anticipation of your opponent's attempt to throw you (or as part of an option select) that results in you reducing the damage taken from the throw. In some games, you can break out of a throw completely and avoid any damage from it altogether. Other games only allow you to "soften" the damage from a throw, rather than breaking it entirely. This is typically done the same way a break would be done in other games; it simply varies based on what the commands for throws are in a particular game. Throw softening also usually allows you to recover from the throw quickly, rather than suffering a full knockdown. Super Turbo and the Darkstalkers series both use throw softening rather than throw breaks.

[Sarail]

I'm really surprised Smash Bros. isn't represented... especially with how well Project M functions as a mod for Brawl.

At EVO, I'm mean.

[S-U-P-E-R]

It's not popular enough. You might see a side tournament, though. I seem to remember seeing Melee in the byob area every year.

[Sarail]

Hmmm... maybe with Sakarai having armed himself with a few of Namco's Tekken and Soul Calibur guys, maybe EVO will take notice of the next Smash then. I would hope so anyway.

I expect the next Smash to be a little more technical this next go around at least.

[S-U-P-E-R]

Brawl was a main event when it was pretty new. You might wanna watch video of the grand finals, I'm pretty sure they're on youtube.

[Sarail]

Oh! I thought you meant as in EVO has never had Smash in any form as a main event. Gotcha. I'll check it out.

[S-U-P-E-R]

Seth "S-Kill" Killian now works for Sony, and it looks like they're bringing ASBR to EVO for people to try out. This'll be first public playtest, I think?

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2012/07/02/a-message-from-sony-santa-monica-studios-newest-employee/


  I think I'll just start posting various vids from EVO so people can get an idea of what they're in for:

SSF4 finals 2010. Seth Killian always has smart stuff to say. Adam Sessler has no idea what's going on.

Smash Bros 2008. It existed. Lol, items and slips

3rd Strike 2004. You've probably seen a certain part of this :cool;

MVC3 2011. S-Kill and Ultradavid (a lawyer by day, fg commentator by night) commentating here. Skip to 8:30 to watch the highlight game!

ST 2006. Afrolegends vs Daigo, one of my favorite matches ever.

Mortal Kombat 2011. PerfectLegend is the people's champ!

Tekken 6 2010

Tatsunoko vs Capcom 2010

MVC2 top 8 2010 Yipes vs CLACK WERRRKKK

[S-U-P-E-R]

It's starting!!
 
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/jul/06/evo-2012-results-streams-battle-logs-and-information/

[S-U-P-E-R]

Here's what you're missing if you're not watching EVO right now!!

E-SPORTS!! THIS GUY IS READY FOR SOME STARCRAFT


SICK LINKS


GIRLS GIRLS GIRLS



Actually yeah, there have been some pretty amazing new things happening. Tokido and Ryan Hart, two of the best motherfucking players in the world, got put into losers by new/unknown blood. And several ~girl gamers~ have been on stream already and have been doing very well.
 
streams: http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/jul/06/evo-2012-results-streams-battle-logs-and-information/

[Ymeegod]

Sigh, tried streaming some of the finals but EVO servers are so taxed out the streams cutting in and out.  Shame.  Hopefully there's an highlight reel.

[S-U-P-E-R]

really? they've been up for me 100% of the time. I think you just have a bad connection
 
edit: everything will be available on stream archives and youtube

[Ymeegod]

They just finished up SFxT partners and it was streaming just fine but during SCV there was hicups all over the place. 

MK9 is up next, then koKXIII, UMvC3, and finially SF4.  SSF4AE seems to be the crowd favorite followed by UMvC3.

Not to many ppl seemed to follow SFXt.

[S-U-P-E-R]

Yeah my stream on SCV was perfect, so I think it must have been a problem in your neighborhood.

Yeah, nobody likes SFxT. It's a pretty bad game.

Ed Boon is here doing a preview of the Justice League game and I really don't like all the goofy stage features it has... and what the heck is that meter wager thing?

I have to go to work today so I won't get to watch the rest of finals until later. Maybe I can avoid spoilers? lol

Here's my favorite match so far, from yesterday. Skip to 6:28 if you just want the highlight!

Spiderman is tough to play as, and l3xf Spiderman is even harder, it's crazy.

[Ymeegod]

KoF XIII finals just ended and it was an upset :0.  Team Korea had 4 people in the top 8 fighters.  Good showing from them and they even had stands and pillows to sit on .

80,000+ ppl watched that one vs 35K that watched SFXT.  Surprised to see that much love for KoF.

[Sarail]

I watched the majority of the KoFXIII tourney... needless to say, I'm gonna have to pick that game up now. Looked really fun to play.

[Spak-Spang]

Why is Street Fighter X Tekken such a bad game? 

What does it do wrong?  Does it do anything well?  Is the opinion partially based on bias (in your opinion)? 

[TJ Spyke]

The Xbox 360 version has a 83 average (based on 45 reviews), so the critical consensus is that it's a good game.

[Ymeegod]

Well Super can answer that better than me since I only been to one tournament but I think these are valid reasons why tournament players hate SFxT.

Microtransactions--Capcom really trying to milk this, first with it's 12 "locked" characters on disc but also with the "gem" system.  The gem system was supposed to help the casuals and hardcore alike but now you have some 30-40% damage increase gems that you can "buy" giving one "set" of players an extreme advantage over the other.  For Evo, the officials decided to Ban Gems.

Pre-programmed combo system--an "feature" in the game.  *Also note it's another microtransaction for Capcom*.  Pretty sure at EVO they disabled this system as well.

Timeout--so many matches end in an timeout. 

The whole, if one character is defeated than the match is lost.  Especially evil in an partner 2vs2 game.

[S-U-P-E-R]

The Xbox 360 version has a 83 average (based on 45 reviews), so the critical consensus is that it's a good game.

lol, professional reviewers don't know the first thing about fighting games. They only know how to analyze the superficial features. Compare those scores to the user metascores. The game is ASS.
http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/street-fighter-x-tekken
http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-3/street-fighter-x-tekken

Microtransactions--Capcom really trying to milk this, first with it's 12 "locked" characters on disc but also with the "gem" system.  The gem system was supposed to help the casuals and hardcore alike but now you have some 30-40% damage increase gems that you can "buy" giving one "set" of players an extreme advantage over the other.  For Evo, the officials decided to Ban Gems.

Yeah, this is an annoying thing. I should point out the primary reason for not using gems in tournaments is the ridiculous amount of time it takes to set them up, though.

Pre-programmed combo system--an "feature" in the game.  *Also note it's another microtransaction for Capcom*.  Pretty sure at EVO they disabled this system as well.

Actually that's bad and useless, since it takes meter to do something you can do normally without it. Somebody accidentally hit the button combination to activate one in the top 4, and he not only lost the meter, but got punished for it.

Timeout--so many matches end in an timeout.

Yep. There's a lot of running away in the last 30 seconds of matches.

The whole, if one character is defeated than the match is lost.  Especially evil in an partner 2vs2 game.

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. You have to make a lot of judgment calls with your character switching. One of the rare occasions where the game makes you think. Tekken Tag Tournament works the same way.

Where the game really stinks is at the basic nuts and bolts of the game:
- Throws are next to useless. They have horrifically short range and really long startup time, making them very difficult to land, and they damage off of them ain't great. How many throws did you see at EVO? What's going to stop someone from just blocking most of the time until a timeout?
- Anti-air moves seem to be weak to nonexistent on most characters. Either you let the other player jump in and initiate stuff on you all the time, or you're forced to pick one of the few characters that can deal with it.
- JABS. JAB JAB JAB JAB JAB JAB. The advantage time off of jabs is ridiculous. The defending player often can't do anything when caught in a jab string, maybe a too-risky reversal or something. And if they touch, it's easy to hit confirm into whatever combo. Bleaauugh

So basically this alternate version of EVO grand finals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAJUelWRWBs

[TJ Spyke]

The Xbox 360 version has a 83 average (based on 45 reviews), so the critical consensus is that it's a good game.

lol, professional reviewers don't know the first thing about fighting games. They only know how to analyze the superficial features. Compare those scores to the user metascores. The game is ASS.
http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/street-fighter-x-tekken
http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-3/street-fighter-x-tekken

User reviews often differ from professional, doesn't mean squat. It is so easy for someone to write a user review to screw up the average. It's fine if you don't like a game, but don't resort to slamming critics because your opinion differs. It's no different than any other genre.

I won't get into the joke that fighting tournaments are with their rules, ESPECIALLY the Smash Bros. games and how those tournaments invalidate their credibility..

[S-U-P-E-R]

User reviews often differ from professional, doesn't mean squat. It is so easy for someone to write a user review to screw up the average. It's fine if you don't like agame, but don't resort to slamming critics because your opinion differs. It's no different than any other genre.

Uh, it *does* mean squat when a game is universally panned on every site and community after it got released. SFxT is bad for very demonstratable reasons. It's not just me by any means. Also, it had a huge advertising budget, lol.

Also, reviewing fighting games is pretty different from other genres because it takes a lot of time and knowledge to explore how the game really works. Reviewers who don't know fighters well have been just evaluating them on their own terms, and often what comes out are "hurrr it's a button masher" or "these (ultimately useless, or broken and abuseable) features are brilliant and deep!"

Iwon't get into the joke that fighting tournaments are with their rules, ESPECIALLY the Smash Bros. games and how those tournaments invalidate their credibility..

Lol, what? Every non Smash game has zero special rules outside of like, stuff that crashes or holds up the game forever. You would probably actually approve of them. And what does that have to do with how bad SFXT is anyway?

[Spak-Spang]

So the question is...is the game redeemable? 

Could the team tweak the game to make it more favorable...and is this something that happens or is likely to happen?

[S-U-P-E-R]

There's an update coming this month actually.

http://www.capcom-unity.com/gregaman/blog/2012/07/10/sfxt_producer_ayano-san_weighs_in_from_evo_2k12

It might be awesome, but I'm pretty pessimistic about it.