Topic: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!

[BranDonk Kong]

TJ, you have confirmed that you have no idea what you're talking about. Please go back in time and pay attention to this entire situation from day one and then make some informed comments about it. If someone is blackmailing you, that's a crime, so you have that person arrested. graf_chokolo has not blackmailed ANYONE (who "blackmails" people via twitter/blogs to begin with?), and Sony has had plenty of time to come up with an actual crime that any of these hackers have commited (remember, George Hotz first starting hacking his PS3 in 2009), yet no one has been charged...ever.

Whenever you say something like "based on what we know" it's confusing, because you have no idea what you're talking about. Please don't use "what we know," but rather "what I think" or "some bullshit analogy that I came up with to justify some comment that I made before I even began to understand any of this."

Edit - I may be ruining the whole "civil and rational" theme that we've somehow managed to adhere to, but I've been at work for 13 hours so I haven't had a real chance to say anything.

[Chozo Ghost]

You really have a warped interpretation. I will give an example: I see someone selling drugs out of their house, I tell them to stop or I will report them to the police. Under your bizarre and false logic, I could be sued for blackmail.

Although this is getting off topic, if you see someone selling drugs and don't alert the authorities of it you could get in serious trouble for reasons which are unrelated to blackmail. The way the drug laws are in this country you are required to turn in even your family members if you know they are guilty or you face things like asset forfeiture where the police can take your car, your home, and pretty much anything you own and you have little or no legal recourse.

[oohhboy]

TJ crossed into Judge Dredd Bobble head territory a long time ago.

I doubt anyone of us no matter how reasonable or well thought out is going to change TJ's perception of Law and Justice. He will continue to insinuate, mislabel, misdirect, misuse, outright abuse anything to justify any law regardless of how ungrounded in reality or enforceable they might be. If this was a religious debate, he would not doubt represent the fundamentalist.

The damn thing is that regardless on your views as to the quality of that movie, even Judge Dredd learnt a thing or two right and wrong that isn't completely based on the law. It's not Robocop level of satire, but it's there.

[TJ Spyke]

Brandogg, graf DID blackmail Sony. That is not in dispute. Whether he did anything else wrong could possibly be up for debate, but he did blackmail Sony.

[UncleBob]

Brandogg, graf DID blackmail Sony. That is not in dispute. Whether he did anything else wrong could possibly be up for debate, but he did blackmail Sony.

Depends.  According to US Law, at least, he did not.  Graf did not "demand or receive money or any other valuable thing."  He said "leave us alone or I'll tell what I know."  He made no demands of payment of any kind.

[TJ Spyke]

I wouldn't be so sure. He threatened to release the info if Sony didn't back off from getting those sites to take down the illegal info. That would be of value to him. I am having a hard time finding out the exact laws regarding it in Germany and the European Union though since those are what would apply here.

[broodwars]

I've said it before and it's worth noting: if the guy didn't break the law in some capacity, the German Police and Justice Departments likely would not have agreed to Sony's request and raided this guy's home.  The last I heard on this story, Sony had filed charges to sue him for 1,000,000 Euros, so we'll see how that goes.

Honestly, though, aren't you guys getting tired of this argument?  It's been going on for several days now and you lot are just repeating the same retorts.

[BranDonk Kong]

Brandogg, graf DID blackmail Sony. That is not in dispute. Whether he did anything else wrong could possibly be up for debate, but he did blackmail Sony.

Really? Funny that no one has even mentioned blackmail until you did. Sony didn't sue him for blackmail, so it seems they don't feel he was blackmailing them either. Again, what info that was illegal was Sony taking down? You keep saying stuff that makes no sense, and just makes it seem like you just went and read a summary of a "report" about some of this, then made a comment about it. Again, blackmail is typically done in private, not via a public website where you put your words out in the open like that.

[Chozo Ghost]

I've said it before and it's worth noting: if the guy didn't break the law in some capacity, the German Police and Justice Departments likely would not have agreed to Sony's request and raided this guy's home.

The purpose of the raid was to gather evidence of any crimes. All they needed was probable cause, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is guilty or that any crime was committed. Sony convinced the police to conduct the raid (maybe they bribed them to do it, such things are not unheard of). But look at it this way: he wasn't arrested. That probably means their raid didn't uncover any proof of illegal activity. So that's probably when Sony decided since there were no grounds for criminal charges they would just file a frivolous lawsuit to make his life unpleasant. Just like how people on here push the smite button on people they don't like... it has no real effect, but its a childish way to "get back" at someone. So the lawsuit is just out of spite and its going to be an inconvenience for this guy, but ultimately it will be dropped/dismissed.

[TJ Spyke]

People aren't always arrested when a raid is done. Sometimes they wait to get more evidence. Not to mention there are plenty of crimes that don't result in jail sentences. Sony will end up winning this because the guy has not shown any evidence that he is innocent and he just continues making himself look like a douche.

[Chozo Ghost]

the guy has not shown any evidence that he is innocent

Umm, its "innocent until proven guilty"; not the other way around. I'm relieved you aren't a lawyer or judge or anyone with any real authority over legal matters.

he just continues making himself look like a douche.

And so do you by smiting me even as I was pointing out how childish it is.

[TJ Spyke]

There is evidence he is guilty, and he is not helping himself by the way he is acting.

And why do you assume I am smiting you?

[Chozo Ghost]

There is evidence he is guilty,

No matter how many times you say that, the truth is still the truth. Post a credible link detailing this alleged evidence which you claim exists.

And why do you assume I am smiting you?

Who else would it be?

[BlackNMild2k1]

This is ridiculous. TJ you are talking in circles and just because you repeat something till you are blue in the face is not gonna make it all of a sudden be true. You feel you have a point and you keep stating it's based on facts, but everytime someone ask you to back it up or explain, you start talking in circles again and referencing yourself as proof of point. That is not getting this conversation anywhere.

We've asked what illegal information there was and you give a vague answer of "i don't know the sites... violation of DMCA.... shady illegal he's a criminal.... blah blah blah".

Please just back up what you are referring to with something so that this conversation can move out of this infinite loop of you rephrasing a previous post and someone asking what proof you have to back that up or come to that conclusion and then you reword a previous post again. It's tiring and I think I'm getting dizzy.


I just want to understand what makes you come to the conclusions you have come to and I need more than "It is blackmail" & "it was illegal info" before I can understand where you are coming from.

Points that need to be addressed:
-What illegal information was being asked to be removed from sites by Sony?
-What makes that information illegal?
-How is telling someone to leave you be or you will make' the knowledge you already obtain and developed on your own' public, defined as blackmail in a way that means you are asking for something valuable in return for silence or looking the other way?
-How is getting a lawsuit filed against you and having the police raid your house, automatically make you a criminal before any such evidence of criminal activity has been presented and decided on in a court or any laws that have been unquestionably broken have been defined?

and a question not related to TJ in anyway.
What is the HyperVisor, what does hacking/backward engineering it do, and do you need permission to backward engineer a technology? Because I don't think we would have gotten as far as we have today if you needed permission to stuff like that.

[oohhboy]

Congratulations TJ, you have single handedly destroyed one of the pillars of judicatory that has stood for over 700 years. Now you can stand tall, above the illustrious groups of individuals and governments that have for nearly a millennia tried to smash this outdated idea that is presumption of innocence.

You have validated the use of extracted confessions by everybody up till the 18th century, and made Stalin proud, oh so proud. George W. Bush could have made great use of you when he needed extraordinary rendition made legal and quiet! I am sure by extension you can remove  habeas corpus since anybody accused or looking funny are now automatically criminals, I mean look at all those people in Gitmo! I mean water boarding and loud music is so 2000s, lets do something from the 90's like car battery, water sponges and a guy named Ando.

What too slow? Well **** it, why do the whole song and dance when you can just put people up against a wall. They are all guilty of some thing right? They have to be since someone accused them, also with original sin and all that. Who the **** needs evidence or a trial because your word is good. It better than anything a defense could come up with. What? too hard? Well I am sure Broodwars will be willing to assist your crusade to make a simpler world where people will become too scared to even **** themselves thereby solving another problem that plague humanity since time immemorial.

I do wonder what other miracles TJ will have in store next, ready to burst out of his righteous brain of his.

[TJ Spyke]

I am quite sick of arguing over this issue over and over again. Maybe when I calm down I will come back and post.

And for the record, I am an extreme liberal. Believing in law does not make you a conservative, quite the opposite. Liberals tend to actually believe in the constitution (not ignore it and make up crap). I am not a libertarian though (who basically believe people should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want to as long as they don't harm others). Forgive me for not believing people should have the right to take stuff that doesn't belong to them, and then share it with others knowing it will hurt the company that took the time and resources to develop it.

[broodwars]

What too slow? Well **** it, why do the whole song and dance when you can just put people up against a wall. They are all guilty of some thing right? They have to be since someone accused them, also with original sin and all that. Who the **** needs evidence or a trial because your word is good. It better than anything a defense could come up with. What? too hard? Well I am sure Broodwars will be willing to assist your crusade to make a simpler world where people will become too scared to even **** themselves thereby solving another problem that plague humanity since time immemorial.

Well that was uncalled for.  I've largely stayed out of this conversation for several days.  I'd also like to remind you that you are bringing politics into this matter, something you know damn well is not allowed here.

[UncleBob]

Forgive me for not believing people should have the right to take stuff that doesn't belong to them,

What did he take that didn't belong to him?

[BlackNMild2k1]

To my understanding, this guy didn't take anything from anyone, pirate any software or profit from anyone else's work.
He figured out a way to manipulate some software that was included on the hardware that he bought to allow it to do things that it wasn't originally intended to allow the end-user access to do. What is so illegal about that?

He didn't go into other peoples systems and circumvent any security measures to allow them to do it too. He simply used his right to legally spread information that he legally developed on his own so that they may legally replicate the actions that he legally did. What is so illegal about that?
please correct me if I have any of the facts wrong here.

[lolmonade]

Congratulations TJ, you have single handedly destroyed one of the pillars of judicatory that has stood for over 700 years. Now you can stand tall, above the illustrious groups of individuals and governments that have for nearly a millennia tried to smash this outdated idea that is presumption of innocence.

You have validated the use of extracted confessions by everybody up till the 18th century, and made Stalin proud, oh so proud. George W. Bush could have made great use of you when he needed extraordinary rendition made legal and quiet! I am sure by extension you can remove  habeas corpus since anybody accused or looking funny are now automatically criminals, I mean look at all those people in Gitmo! I mean water boarding and loud music is so 2000s, lets do something from the 90's like car battery, water sponges and a guy named Ando.

What too slow? Well **** it, why do the whole song and dance when you can just put people up against a wall. They are all guilty of some thing right? They have to be since someone accused them, also with original sin and all that. Who the **** needs evidence or a trial because your word is good. It better than anything a defense could come up with. What? too hard? Well I am sure Broodwars will be willing to assist your crusade to make a simpler world where people will become too scared to even **** themselves thereby solving another problem that plague humanity since time immemorial.

I do wonder what other miracles TJ will have in store next, ready to burst out of his righteous brain of his.

[Chozo Ghost]

And for the record, I am an extreme liberal.

Bullshit. The founding fathers were Liberals. They believed in innocent until proven guilty and all sorts of other things that you are against. You kiss Sony's ass even as they screw consumers.

Believing in law does not make you a conservative, quite the opposite.

You only support laws that support corporations, not the ones that support individuals. You believe the DMCA is more important than the bill of rights.

Liberals tend to actually believe in the constitution (not ignore it and make up crap).

Maybe they do, but you sure don't. You've ignored it by saying he is "clearly guilty" even without proof or a conviction. You've made up all kinds of crap throughout this thread so if liberals don't "make up crap" then how can you be one?

And finally, I should point out that you've admitted in the past in another thread that you hacked your PSP so if hacking is a crime then if that guy deserves to rot in prison then you deserve to as well. So keep that in mind becasue you're just as guilty as he is.

[oohhboy]

I can't very well explain what presumption of innocence is without pointing out examples and it's logical conclusion in a world without it.

I brought you in Broodwars because you fell into the same assumption as TJ did. In evidence I present.

I've said it before and it's worth noting: if the guy didn't break the law in some capacity, the German Police and Justice Departments likely would not have agreed to Sony's request and raided this guy's home.

The purpose of the raid was to gather evidence of any crimes. All they needed was probable cause, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is guilty or that any crime was committed. Sony convinced the police to conduct the raid (maybe they bribed them to do it, such things are not unheard of). But look at it this way: he wasn't arrested. That probably means their raid didn't uncover any proof of illegal activity. So that's probably when Sony decided since there were no grounds for criminal charges they would just file a frivolous lawsuit to make his life unpleasant. Just like how people on here push the smite button on people they don't like... it has no real effect, but its a childish way to "get back" at someone. So the lawsuit is just out of spite and its going to be an inconvenience for this guy, but ultimately it will be dropped/dismissed.
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[broodwars]

Guys, seriously...knock it off with the politics.  You know that topic is banned here for good reason.

As for the political parties, suffice it to say that what a "liberal" is and what a "conservative" is has shifted and changed over the years as well as spinning off new philosophies (like my Libertarianism), as is the nature of such philosophies.

And Ooohboy, I was trying to look at that event logically.  Logically, unless the German Police and Justice Departments are wildly corrupt (which we have no proof of), for Sony to convince them to devote resources to conduct a raid, logic states that Sony must have presented them with Just Cause or evidence to make them think the law was being violated.  Until we see more evidence, I'm fine with leaving it at that and seeing what the courts do with it.

[Chozo Ghost]

Ultimately, any argument TJ comes up with is rendered invalid by the fact he hacked his PSP. It sickens me that someone who hacks their own consoles likes to gloat over someone else being fined a million euros for doing the same thing. What TJ is is a hypocrite. Not a liberal or anything else. Just a hypocrite.

[NWR_insanolord]

Why the hell did I have to go and say this thread was civil and rational? That was just asking for trouble.